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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 12:29:24
my God,
my God.I made my choice, and I think it was wrong.
But I am split. My intuition, guiding voice is split-- so either way I go, I feel wrong.
I need to stay here longer with my therapist.
I need to go to Boston to the program where I will feel excited and alive. I feel dead and obsesed now. I am always obsessed-- it's just the way my mind works. When I am obsessed with my work, good things emerge-- I am productive. When I am obsessed with therapy, I spin in circles.I chose to stay, because if not, I would have had about 4 sessions left with my therapist-- that is not long enough termination for anyone, especially in my situation, it would be impossible. I would only have that few sessions left because of practical reasons why I would be unable to stay in town.
So I chose to stay, but now think it was the wrong move. I stayed just because of my therapist. I am stuck.
In images. grief. loss. hell.
Dear God, dear God, I am in hell.
I have never felt so sad and hopeless.
I want to know what XXX will do when taken at once. I now have them. Will it just cause brain damage? Or will it make it all end.I spread them out on my desk sometimes, and look at them. This is hell. I am tearing in two.
Posted by Daisym on April 16, 2011, at 12:49:57
In reply to Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 12:29:24
Can you undo your choice? Perhaps the agony is a large voice telling your it is time to upend things in such a way that you can completely start over. I think you want desperately to build your life - not just hang on to the deep but limited love you feel with your therapist. One of the great things that can come from a deep theraputic relationship is to want this kind of connection in your life in a larger way - and sometimes the only way to get it is to give it up in one area and go after it in another.
There are other possibilities for continued contact - phone, internet, etc. It doesn't have to be as cut and dried as it sounds.
Or maybe it does - are there rules about this?
And if it is a "done deal" then I encourage you to take a deep breath and accept this choice. Walk it through your whole body - your toes have to accept it, your stomach does and your throat does. Make a list of all the things that will be great about staying put - where is the best pizza or coffee or ice cream? What does spring look like where you are now?
It would take effort to move. Can you find something local to put effort into? Volunteer at a senior center or soup kitchen. At first it won't feel comfortable. But you will get an unbelievable amount of love back.
And I think love can fill up the empty spaces. I try to find at least one thing to look forward to each day - sometimes they are so small and stupid - new socks, folded laundry - my cat's purr. But when I focus on feeling grateful, I don't feel so sad and alone.
I think you need to also think about taking suicide off the table as a possible solution. I've been where you are - pills laid out on the counter. It is so seductive - to have it all over with - all the pain gone, the struggles done, no more decisions, no more bad dreams. And yet something has held you (and me) here past other bad moments. Is it hope, fear, stupidity? I don't know. But I know for me, I'm working hard to radically just shut that door - it isn't a choice, it can't be. I'm not saying it is easy and there are times when I still find myself drifting into those thoughts. But since I've made them "off limits" to myself, it is easier to shut it off and go find something else to focus on. It took a lot of tears to get to this place but truly, the "should I or shouldn't I?" was exhausting. Just a suggestion as a way to get through.
I don't know you. But if I was your mom, I'd vote to radically change your life. It isn't working for you now. Location change brings new possibilities. And if it is too late, you can still radically change things. Do something you'd never do before. Imagine a whole chain of events to follow. Because you can't think your way out of this kind of quick-sand. You have to physically move your body and DO something different.
Ice cream also helps.
Best to you.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on April 16, 2011, at 13:15:13
In reply to Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 12:29:24
Have someone else hold the pills, and call someone who can help you.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 15:45:55
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Daisym on April 16, 2011, at 12:49:57
I don't know if I can undo the decision or not. I kind of doubt it. I could wait until Monday and try then.
Thanks for your help and all that you had to say.
I really don't know what to do in this moment. I have never felt like this before-- stuck in the final moments of such a huge decision, where I feel like either way I go, there is a deadness of the self and life waiting.
My body feels like a corpse right now. It literally take an immense amount of effort to even type these words. But, my final term is nearing the final stretch, and I have 2 huge papers due in less than 2 weeks, and 2 presentations and one test next week. I have prepared for none of these. I can't. I can't make it through.
I am supposed to meet with my therapist at 8am on Monday. I don't know how to make it that long.
If I need help, I don't know where to go for it on the weekend. The weekend is the loneliest, most difficult time for me. During the week, I could call my therapist or visit the psych and counseling center. But now, there is nowhere to go. If it gets to a certain point, I don't know if the hospital has crisis workers in the er that can talk. But then, I don't know if there is a charge for this. I have almost no money, and I want all of this to remain private and not go on my record.
At the moment, I have no idea.
Posted by sigismund on April 16, 2011, at 15:52:30
In reply to Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 12:29:24
I think you would always have felt you had made the wrong choice.
Since it is impossible for you to make the right choice, can you not accept that you have made the wrong choice as you expected?
If you are split, you cannot make a choice that is satisfactory.
So you have done the best you could.
Forget the XXX. It will just damage you, but it won't finish you off, no way.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on April 16, 2011, at 17:52:54
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 15:45:55
There are always help lines. There is a link above about "coping with crisis".
Posted by Solstice on April 16, 2011, at 17:58:03
In reply to Re: Agony » Annabelle Smith, posted by sleepygirl2 on April 16, 2011, at 17:52:54
> There are always help lines. There is a link above about "coping with crisis".
Like SleepyGirl, I recommend that you call a suicide/crisis hotline. The number for the national hotline is: 1-800-273-8255. First of all - you'll have a real human being to talk to - a real voice. Second - they will likely be able to point you in the direction of low or no cost resources.
Call them.
Solstice
Posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 21:46:02
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Daisym on April 16, 2011, at 12:49:57
Daisym,
You are right-- I want to pursue this limited love in a larger way. If I did stay, do you think it is possible for me to build my life and have the deep love with my therapist?
I know that my problem is that I am thinking in black-and-white terms. It is not an either/or.
Boston is not all-good and my current southern city all-bad (I am also from the south and so want to get away).
The program in Boston is not all-good and the program here all-bad for me.
Novelty is not all-good and continuity all-bad.My trouble is that it is hard to have both the deep love with my therapist and build a life outside of that. I actually don't know that I can.
The truth is that I did the best that I could with this decision--considering the time restraints and my fluctuating feelings and emotion. I weighted the risks and thought that it was better to stay here and make the most of the wonderful therapist that I have been so fortunate to meet. As much as every ounce of my being wanted to go to Boston-- the city, the program, everything about it-- I stayed because of the therapeutic relationship.
I have my session at 8am on Monday. We will talk about it. My option is to call the school in Boston on Monday and ask if I can turn my refusal into a deferral and then live in this city for a year, doing odds and ends and working with my therapist. The reason I initially decided against this was because I have serious issues with deadlines and needed to know that I had an open-ended amount of time. But a year is still pretty long.
I then sometimes wonder if staying here is keeping me in further bondage-- if I can just choose to be well and all will be well.
I think I am strong enough. Maybe I don't need anyone's help.
Posted by Willful on April 17, 2011, at 11:39:28
In reply to Re: Agony » Daisym, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 21:46:02
Staying where you are is probably what you have to do, given the obsessed and needing relationship you have with your therapist. I had such a relationship and it took years to unravel it. You probably aren't going to be able to leave in a year, unless the relationship ends for other reasons-- such as your therapist becomes unable to sustain your emotional needs, which I hope will not happen. And it may prolong the agony if you have this decision overhanging you for that time. It certainly heightens what you call your push-pull feelings-- and gives them a seemingly external rather than truly internal cause-- which would be illusory. But if you could go to the Boston program, it would be of course a good thing in terms of your vocation and career. So the dilemma is really insoluble-- for reasons that I"m sure have some bearing on something in you.
So truly if you were able to leave, it would be best-- of course,-- But there is no disregarding this compulsion to be with and see your therapist. You need to accept the limitations of this moment until it truly is over..
By the way, did you explore with your therapist the option of phone sessions during semesters and coming to see him in person during breaks and summers-- or other options?---
Of course, talking over the phone wouldn't meet your needs - this is an option more for a future time than for now. Yet I wonder if you and he even talked through such compromise options. Daisy raised this and you did'nt I think answer (perhaps I missed the answer).---
You need to repeat to yourself that you've done the best thing that you can do-- and your must accept that it is, and leave the confusion alone as much as possible, despite regrets and the sense of being in bondage-- to something in yourself, really not to your therapist-- . As Sigismund said, neither decision is at the moment acceptable-- because the conflict within yourself is at such a massive level. If staying simply what you need in the most life-wrenching way right now-- whether that's the most "rational" seeming solution--then it is. Period. --( and I truly believe you that it is). IMO, take it for what it's worth, eventually you will use ADs-- because the amount of pain and turmoil you're in is preventing you from even beginning to get better---but I'm sure that will itself be a huge struggle for you to let someone help you.
Willful
Posted by sigismund on April 17, 2011, at 14:35:34
In reply to Re: Agony » Daisym, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 21:46:02
I think at this time you need the deep love and the bondage and you should try to accept that and just say to yourself 'Well, people are pretty strange which makes me quite normal'.
And then maybe one day you will go to Boston or do something similar, when you are ready, when you have had enough.What would you have felt if you had chosen Boston?
Funny word, Boston, when you see it written down.
Posted by wittgensteinz on April 17, 2011, at 16:26:23
In reply to Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 12:29:24
I'm sorry you are in agony.
You've made your decision and I'm not so sure it was the wrong decision. While Boston - the program etc. sound like a wonderful adventure - going there, suffering and not being able to cope would be far worse than being here now having to wait a long weekend to see your T. There is still a lot of work to be done. Nothings lost. I would put in a deferral and see how it goes. If you end up going after a year - fine - if not, then just refuse your deferred place when the time comes. That's also ok. Then you leave your options open and you have time to decide what you want.
Regarding XXX - taking a handful of pills will most probably send you into a deep sleep - overdoses are not a good way to 'end it all' (trust me I have some experience) - while sleep is good, just take as many as prescribed to achieve that. If you feel suicidal, please be open about this to your T - don't be alone with it as it's a very dangerous place to be. In such a situation it's easy to be impulsive and honestly overdoses more commonly lead to liver damage than they do to death.
It's a fact that people often regret their decisions - I think you would have had regrets either way - Boston is not lost - it will be waiting there for when you feel up to it. Take your time and work on yourself first. There's nothing wrong with choosing to stay because of the relationship with your T.
Witti
Posted by Daisym on April 17, 2011, at 23:35:08
In reply to Re: Agony » Daisym, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 21:46:02
I wrote a whole reply and disappeared - I hate that.
I'm glad you are seeing your therapist tomorrow. I hope you can be brutally honest about what you think will happen by staying here. I worry that you will eventually resent your therapist because the relationship is unlikely to take up more time and space in your life than it already does. You said weekend are hell - you are so alone. How will this change by staying? What is it you are hoping for?
Only you can say what is right for you. But if you build a whole life around someone who isn't equally invested in building theirs around you, you are bound to be disappointed. I'm not saying your therapist doesn't care deeply about you. I'm saying that your world can get very small if you allow it to exist only within the limitation of a theraputic relationship.
But mostly my point is that once you decide, stop wondering if you made a mistake. Grab onto the positives and hang on to them. Tell yourself this is absolutely the best thing for you right now. Let go of the other path and pay attention to moving forward on the path you've chosen. I had a friend who used to say, "If you keep looking over your shoulder, your bound to run into a tree." Very wise, I think.
Good luck with all of this. I know it isn't easy.
Posted by emmanuel98 on April 18, 2011, at 0:05:55
In reply to Re: Agony » Annabelle Smith, posted by Daisym on April 17, 2011, at 23:35:08
To stay where you are because you have this obsessive love for you therapist seems wrong Your therapist will never love you in the same way and your obsessive response to him will probably take a log time to work through. (Assuming he is willing and able to work through such intenes transference).
Moving to Boston, starting a new and exciting program will take your mind out of this, rather than leaving you mired in the obsesive transference.
Besides, Boston is the mecca of medical/psych professionals. If you interview several Ts, eventually you will find one who can help you. the area is literally crawling with Ts. Good ones, great ones, not so good ones. But it won't be like your experince in college, where you found only one T to your liking through the college clinic.
Posted by emilyp on April 18, 2011, at 1:08:53
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by emmanuel98 on April 18, 2011, at 0:05:55
I agree 100% with Emmanuel and Daisy. I especially agree with the comment that you may resent your therapist because he cannot and will not be as committed to the relationship as you are. I say with that some experience as there are times I resent my therapist; yet I am not staying because of him, so I suspect my level of resentment is far less than what you may ultimately feel.
Saying that he won't be as committed does not mean he won't care. But since he is not making the same kind of sacrifice that you would be, his perception of the relationship will be different.Please know that I am not a believer that by moving you can shake off your problems. About 15 years ago, I made a big move geographically, thinking that some of my problems would simply dissolve. I was mistaken. And thinking that the move would be the solution, a lot of time passed during which I could have addressed my problems.
However, I strongly believe that help can be found in many places and clearly can be found in Boston. How will you feel in a year or two when therapy with your therapist needs to end (assuming you cannot stay where you are now forever)? I would think that you will be somewhat regretful that you gave up such a great opportunity.
In my situation, I ultimately did seek out help in my new home. Therapy helped address many of the problems I had - most of which had followed me from my prior address. In addition, being in a new city allowed me to stay busy through exploring and trying to meet new people. It was the combination of therapy and a new home that helped me put my life back on track and gave me the strength to pursue new challenges.
I know you are feeling immense pain, for many reasons. I understand that you think leaving your therapist would be like torture. But like any 'love', the pain may be intolerable at first. Over time, it always lessens and at some point you move on with your life. In this case, if you find someone in Boston who can help you with the problems you face, the pain may lessen a lot quicker. At the same time, you will be further helping yourself by starting a great program and working to advance yourself.
I suspect this is not the advice you want to hear, considering that you made the opposite decision. At the same time, I have been in your shoes before and I feel my experiences are relevant.
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2011, at 2:42:02
In reply to Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 12:29:24
I'll just say the same thing I say to my son.
No single decision can ruin or make your life. If it's even possible to blight your life forever, it would require a whole string of bad decisions. People live happy lives going to Boston and they also live happy lives choosing to stay in a "lesser" program due to life concerns. People live happy lives after devoting time to learn healthy ways of coping with a beloved therapist, and they live happy lives after choosing to give up a beloved therapist to pursue other dreams and growth with other therapists.
Every choice we make in life has, built in, the loss of the choice we passed up. Every road we take contains within it not only the loss of the roads not taken, but the loss of where we were. Staying, going, standing still, they all involve loss. No matter what we do, there is a potential for regret.
And that's ok. This is what life is.
As my therapist always says, however much I hate it, it really is impossible to say whether something is good or bad in the long run because we don't have the benefit of hindsight. And sometimes perhaps it's impossible to say because it depends as much on what we do as on outside forces.
Mourning is appropriate. Acknowledge the road not taken as a loss. It is a loss. Just as there would have been a loss in going to Boston.
What may blight your life, at least in the short run, is agonizing and second guessing yourself. If you can reverse the decision, and you wish to, then reverse it. If you can't, then recognize that your future happiness depends not only (or even mainly) on the decisions you've already made, but on the decisions you will make each and every day from here on out.
What decision can you make tomorrow that will lead to a happier and more fulfilling life? How about the day after?
(I thought the program you were staying to attend was pretty good - at least good enough to be a positive alternative to death? Do you think you might be overestimating the pleasantness of death as a choice? If you regret losing the chance of going to Boston, how much more would you lose if you weren't around to go anywhere at all, to love and be loved, or to learn and give and grow?)
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2011, at 2:52:13
In reply to Re: Agony » Annabelle Smith, posted by Dinah on April 18, 2011, at 2:42:02
And, if it helps, I have some experience in giving things up.
Most directly to the point, I decided not to move from New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, in large part because moving would have meant giving up my therapist.
It seemed like the most stupid decision in the world.
Yet, as it happens, normal life has resumed in the city, and in general life here as we know it didn't end. At least not forever.
People I know who panicked and bought homes elsewhere had reason to regret it.
There was no way for us to know at the time what decision would be best for us. In hindsight, I'm glad with the decision we did make. Yet if we had moved, it's possible that I'd think that was the best decision as well.
Perhaps you could see thinking of taking an overdose as a signal that you may need to step back and take a deep breath and, in the terminology of DBT, use your wise mind.
Posted by annierose on April 18, 2011, at 6:23:42
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Dinah on April 18, 2011, at 2:52:13
Is that she actually talks to her therapist. It seems we "know" way more about her pain, her struggles, her death wishes than he does. And that worries me.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on April 18, 2011, at 22:06:40
In reply to Re: my hope, posted by annierose on April 18, 2011, at 6:23:42
me too annierose
I hope so too.
Posted by wittgensteinz on April 19, 2011, at 4:31:31
In reply to Re: Agony » Daisym, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 16, 2011, at 21:46:02
Annabelle,
How did it go on Monday? Was your T able to share in your agony? I hope you are safe and I hope he knows exactly how you feel and is helping you.
I think the advice people have given here is very sound.
Take care and keep safe.
Witti
Posted by Annabelle Smith on April 20, 2011, at 21:14:12
In reply to Re: Agony » Annabelle Smith, posted by wittgensteinz on April 19, 2011, at 4:31:31
F*CK.
I wrote a long thread and lost it all. f*ck. f*ck. f*ck.
anyway. thanks for all that you guys had to say.
I talked to him. I went as usual-- he won't decide for me.
I skipped class today and spent my afternoon reading books on transference and bpd in the library. It seems pretty hopeless. These feelings are never going to go away.
I read of people who had been in therapy for 7 years and still felt this way. f*ck.
I don't have 7 years in this god-awful place. Maybe I should break it now. I have to be here for one year regardless because I made a commitment on a house.
This is horrible. I have an inexhaustible longing that can't be fulfilled-- this used to be directed towards God but now is directed towards my therapist. I know that he can never fulfill the infinite need that I have, and to imagine that he can is to keep myself in bondage.
I am strong enough. I can make it by myself.
I can be fine. I have to be. Maybe I'm not crazy. Maybe I just love deeply and get hurt a lot.
That's not a crime.
But this decision is impossible. I have to fight the suicidal feelings so much now. Today was really hard. My therapist mentioned hospitalization at our last session. no.no.no.
I don't need that. I will make it.I just need help with this decision.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on April 20, 2011, at 21:27:19
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 20, 2011, at 21:14:12
I just feel :'( x 1000
Posted by annierose on April 20, 2011, at 21:43:32
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 20, 2011, at 21:27:19
... and you won't even consider medication.
If you become a mother and your child is in so much pain, day after day, moment after moment, so badly that death seems like a solution ... wouldn't you want him/her to at least try a medication in conjunction with talking therapy.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on April 20, 2011, at 22:35:59
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 20, 2011, at 21:14:12
annabelle,
please....see a pdoc
what do you have to lose?
Posted by sigismund on April 20, 2011, at 23:38:51
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by Annabelle Smith on April 20, 2011, at 21:14:12
>Maybe I just love deeply and get hurt a lot.
>That's not a crime.
It most certainly is not. I liked what Tabitha said to you in that other thread, about suffering and meaning.
There is no reason you have to take meds.
But can you live like this? Maybe you can find a way?
Posted by Tabitha on April 21, 2011, at 1:09:12
In reply to Re: Agony, posted by sigismund on April 20, 2011, at 23:38:51
> >Maybe I just love deeply and get hurt a lot.
>
> >That's not a crime.
>
> It most certainly is not. I liked what Tabitha said to you in that other thread, about suffering and meaning.
>
> There is no reason you have to take meds.
>
> But can you live like this? Maybe you can find a way?Oh gosh, sig, I think my intent with the question I asked wasn't clear. I did think I understood the resistance to medicating-- because the feelings *seem* so real & important. I wasn't sure if that actually even fit for Annabelle's resistance. For myself I've learned it's more helpful to re-frame that sort of pull as, well, depression lying to you. Or something lying to you.
This is the end of the thread.
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