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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by Poet on October 8, 2004, at 17:07:51
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long), posted by cricket on October 8, 2004, at 8:44:16
Hi Cricket,
You so understand what I'm going through. I'm sorry that you've had to experience it first hand.
You and others have quit and gone back and felt it was for the better. Opening up is just so hard, and those little baby steps so frustrating.
I am so much sadder than I thought I would be. I thought it would be a clean break, but it sure isn't. If I still feel this down next week, I will try to overcome my self shame and at least talk to her on the phone. She was always very good about phone sessions.
She was always a good therapist...damn, here I go again.
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 8, 2004, at 17:12:59
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long), posted by antigua on October 8, 2004, at 11:34:18
Hi Antigua,
This is a rollercoaster and I am motion sick.
I have big issues with dependence, too. My T told me that it was okay to be dependent on her for support and that she would be there. It's me who just can't let her in.
It's comforting to know that you quit and went back a week later. I have a hard time accepting that it's okay, but you did it and it was for the best.
I'll probably be posting a lot until I make a decision. Maybe I should have done that before I decided to quit.
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 8, 2004, at 17:17:19
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long), posted by College-Girl on October 8, 2004, at 11:46:20
Hi College-Girl,
You are right that the goal of therapy is for the client to become self-reliant. My problem is that I quit against my therapist's recommendation and now I'm not sure that the decision was such a smart one.
I can go back, though that will be hard, too.Thanks for your support
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 8, 2004, at 18:07:05
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long) » Poet, posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2004, at 12:47:47
Hi Fallsfall,
You really have made some thought provoking comments.
I was in therapy once a week for two years. She was very open to phone calls, she encouraged me to call her whenever I needed to. I know that she didn't give up on me. I gave up on me.
Where I feel like a therapy failure is that I can't open up to any childhood trauma other than what little I'll reveal about my completely messed up family. The emotion we shared was anger, so like you, I didn't learn emotional skills. Maybe that doesn't make me emotionally inferior, just emotionally challenged?
You are probably right that pdoc wasn't going to gang up on my therapist because I am feeling more suicidal. I told my therapist that pdoc wanted to call her and I stopped him. She told me that she was concerned that I would use quitting therapy as more reason to *hurt myself.* I can't say what will go through my brain as I think more and more about leaving therapy or leaving this world. I will babble, I promise. I will pdoc or T, I hope.
I don't think you're a therapy failure. You're so insightful. Maybe you're like me, you can see your way to guide someone else, but not yourself?
I will post more on quitting Vs. going back and the negative thoughts that seem to be at full force these days. At least I haven't cried all day, just most of it.
Thank you for not giving up on me.
Poet
Posted by crushedout on October 9, 2004, at 0:33:45
In reply to I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long), posted by Poet on October 7, 2004, at 15:42:17
Poet,I've never quit but I've contemplated it a lot and can identify with so much of what you're going through. I would be devastated also if I were in your shoes, and I agree with what a lot of people have said -- that you shouldn't feel ashamed if you decide to go back (and that maybe you really should go back). But I also know my pride would make me not want to call.
I really understand the feeling that she would just be relieved to get rid of me. I was having that feeling just this week myself when I was thinking about quitting. It's a terrible feeling. But isn't it a relief in some way to find out you were wrong? She really does care about you and she really doesn't want you to quit. I do believe that (for you).
I really hope you feel better soon. I hope it helps to know we all feel a little bit of your pain (I think we do) and we really care about you also.
crushedout
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2004, at 8:15:32
In reply to I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long), posted by Poet on October 7, 2004, at 15:42:17
I quit therapy a *lot* the first five years. Sometimes for pretty good reason. I never did it gracefully, my therapist always accepted it gracefully, and accepted me graciously back. So don't let shame stand in your way.
If I might be so bold, I do see that your therapist has helped you. Perhaps you're not moving at the speed of light in your eyes, but you've also dealt with some pretty heavy duty real life stressors, and your therapist has clearly assisted you with that. I think that real life issues sometimes put aside long term depth work when it's necessary. Also, everyone moves at a different speed. My own therapist describes my progress as "glacial" but he does say that I'm progressing.
Do you think it's worth having an assessment of expectation session?
P.S. Please forgive any grammar or word substitution errors. I tried to proof=read this the best I could, and the most charitable explanation that I could come up with is that I'm drunk. Unfortunately, I'm not drunk. :)
Posted by fallsfall on October 9, 2004, at 14:49:38
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long) » fallsfall, posted by Poet on October 8, 2004, at 18:07:05
>Where I feel like a therapy failure is that I can't open up to any childhood trauma other than what little I'll reveal about my completely messed up family. The emotion we shared was anger, so like you, I didn't learn emotional skills. Maybe that doesn't make me emotionally inferior, just emotionally challenged?
Perhaps emotionally challenged, although to me the "challenged" part tends to mean that you will never be able to *stop* being challenged. And I don't think that is the situation for you or for me. I tend to think of it more like I'm emotionally illiterate. I have never *learned* the things that I need to learn in order to be able to have my emotions help me in life. It isn't that I'm not *capable* of learning them, it is just that noone ever taught me. The world assumes that we will learn this stuff from our parents, so the world doesn't really teach it. My parents (each for their own reason) couldn't teach it to me. So I never learned it.
I was so excited when I saw Marsha Linehan's "Skills Training Manual for Treating Borderline Personality Disorder". There are *pages* of emotion words - categorized - one set for love, another for hate, another for shame, joy etc. Finally someone understood that I just don't *know* about emotions. I found it helpful to type them up, and then cut them apart - I call it emotional confetti. Spread it out in a pile on the floor and then sort through to see which ones apply to you. I'm still not good at this (and I found her book in 1996...), but I am better able to figure out how I feel than I used to be.
Since my deficit is because I was never taught about this stuff, the solution is to find a place to learn this. The DBT class was a good start. But, for me (and quite possibly for you), the real place to learn this *is* in therapy. Therapy is the appropriate place to learn about emotions. I certainly feel like a fool a lot when it becomes clear how little I know (and sometimes it takes some convincing to get my therapist to know that I really *don't* understand something). But my therapists have shown me that they are willing to help me learn about this stuff. And so we slog through it together.
Think about how you would approach helping an adult learn how to read. There are lots of adults who don't know how to read. For many of them it is *not* because they are not intelligent enough to learn, it is because they haven't had the right *opportunity* to learn. Now, if you sat down to teach a person to read, and put a simple book in front of them and they couldn't read at all, what would you do? Would you say "Of course you can read this, you aren't trying hard enough"? Probably not. You might choose one word and see if they understand phonics at all - can they sound out a simple word? If they can't, then you might find out if they know the alphabet, and if they can recognize the different letters. And you may have to go all the way back to "An 'A' has two slanted lines that come together at the top and a line across the middle". I really don't think you would say "This person is an idiot". You would be more likely to say "This person hasn't learned the alphabet/phonics/reading. How can I teach him the parts that he doesn't know?"
Now, let's say that you started teaching this person to read, but after a while they stop making progress. Now they can't read words that they used to be able to read. Would you say "You are hopeless, you will never learn to read"? Probably not, because you have seen them learn some of the skills already. There *may* come a time when they *are* incapable of learning any more, but at this point they seem to be going backwards, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. You might try some experiments to figure out why they are having a problem now, where they were doing fine before. Eventually you might think that you really can't help them with whatever the problem is - that they need more help than you know how to give. So maybe you send them to an eye doctor, and the eye doctor figures out that they need reading glasses. It was never a problem before because the type was big enough for them to see, but now that they are reading better they are progressing to books with smaller type. Are they a failure because they need glasses? Are you a failure because you can't provide them with glasses? No. They just need both you (their reading teacher) and the eye doctor.
I think (I hope?) that this is the way that my therapist sees me - that I have some really basic things to learn. That other people learned these things when they were 1 or 2 or 3 years old, but for some reason I didn't. So I need to learn them now. And he can help me learn them.
You don't need to be ashamed of the things you don't know. You were never taught them, how could you know them? You can learn these things if you are given the opportunity. Therapy gives you the opportunity that you need to learn about emotions (and also to learn about trust).
P.S. Therapy is also a great place to learn that it is OK to make mistakes (I sure didn't learn that as a child!!!). Your therapist will be happy to show you that you can be forgiven, and welcomed back.
P.P.S. You said: "I can't say what will go through my brain as I think more and more about leaving therapy or leaving this world." Please stay.
Posted by Poet on October 9, 2004, at 15:35:54
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long) » Poet, posted by crushedout on October 9, 2004, at 0:33:45
Hi crushedout,
I wish you (and everyone) didn't feel me pain, but it makes me grateful that I am not alone in what I feel.
It seems that so many of us think that our therapists would be overjoyed to get rid of us. Mine made it clear she wasn't, but I quit anyway.
I had thought about quitting for a week- it wasn't a snap decision. What I didn't take into consideration was how I would feel without therapy. My (former?) T asked if I had thought about it and I said no. Now I realize I should have.
I should call her, but like you, pride gets in the way.
Thanks for caring. I appreciate and need it.
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 9, 2004, at 15:48:49
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long) » Poet, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2004, at 8:15:32
Hi Dinah,
Your post was just fine.
I have dealt with some pretty heavy life stressors this year. My (former, oh, oh, tearing up) therapist was with me 100 percent of each and every crisis. I know my progress was glacial, but it was there, just not fast enough to me. Though, I know she would disagree.
You've made a really good point that real life issues sometimes put aside long term depth work. I keep telling myself that when I get a job that I'll just magically feel better, but that seems to easy to be true.
I'm struggling with shame about going back. Maybe I could just call her and ask for an assessment session; that might be the way to open the door to another appointment and another...
I really didn't think I would get hit this hard.
Thanks for your help.
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 9, 2004, at 16:08:57
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long) » Poet, posted by fallsfall on October 9, 2004, at 14:49:38
Hi Fallsfall,
I think you're right, emotionally illiterate fits me, not emotionally challenged. In therapy I always had trouble describing how I feel emotionally. It makes sense that I couldn't describe what I didn't understand.
I can't get the book right now, but when I can, I will try your emotional confetti.
I'm stuggling with shame about calling my therapist. I know that there is no reason to think it's shameful, but shame is one emotion that my entire family gave me life long lessons in. Along with anger of course. I think they go together.
I have to keep saying that it's okay to call her next week and I know she'll welcome me back, maybe if I repeat it enough times it'll sink in.
I hope I get a job soon, I've had three interviews in the last week and have one on the 12th & another on the 18th. Both pdoc and my therapist agree that a job could do more for me than meds or therapy. Not that I don't need meds or therapy.
Thanks so much for caring about me. I will try to stay (whisper quitely safe) and will probably post a lot in the next few days because this is a place where I can get the help I need. From experts.
Poet
Posted by fallsfall on October 9, 2004, at 16:41:49
In reply to Emotional confetti » fallsfall, posted by Poet on October 9, 2004, at 16:08:57
[I seem to have diarrhea of the fingers today. Please feel free to ignore this post if you want...]
Look for the Skill Training manual at your library (or a nearby University library)...
>I'm stuggling with shame about calling my therapist.
OK. So what is "shame"? (This is an honest question from me)
Is shame something that *we* feel, or something that *others* feel? When you say that you are struggling with shame, do you mean that *you* think you did a bad thing, or that you think that *your therapist* will think that you did a bad thing?
Your therapist already said that she would welcome you back. Do you think that she will *also* think you did a bad thing?
Or why would *you* think you have done a bad thing if she has already said that you didn't? Do the two of you interpret the same act differently (you think it was a bad thing, she doesn't)? Is there an absolute "good" or "bad" that can be attached to each act? Or is it possible for you both to have different opinions and have both of you be right (even though you disagree)?
[This is an old issue for me, I have a strong believe in a global right/wrong system. Where everything is intrisically good or bad, and if two people disagree about whether it is good or bad, then one of them is wrong. I think that people have tried to convince me that this isn't particularly accurate (i.e. are Republicans good or bad? Reasonable people can disagree. I would tend to believe one way, and think that the disagreers are uninformed.)]
I honestly am confused by this. This is one of the kinds of things where people look at me like I have 3 heads... You can pat me on the head(s) and tell me to go away if you want to, I won't take offense...
Posted by gardenergirl on October 9, 2004, at 19:32:30
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long) » crushedout, posted by Poet on October 9, 2004, at 15:35:54
> It seems that so many of us think that our therapists would be overjoyed to get rid of us. Mine made it clear she wasn't, but I quit anyway.
Dear Poet, I'm sorry you were feeling this way in therapy. Your statement above made me think back to my own clients. I can't really think of anyone I was wishing I could get rid of. That doesn't mean that I didn't have some challenges, but I just had to put in more effort, especially if therapy seemed to be getting stagnant. I hope that you will be able to talk to her about this feeling you expressed here more in depth in the future. I think that the discrepancy between your feeling (which is valid, btw...you feel and worry what you do, regardless of how others' feel)...and hers is important to discuss.
>
> I had thought about quitting for a week- it wasn't a snap decision. What I didn't take into consideration was how I would feel without therapy. My (former?) T asked if I had thought about it and I said no. Now I realize I should have.You know what? The ability to re-evaluate this in light of new information...i.e. how you feel now, is a very healthy and adaptive skill. Without it you would be truly stuck. There's no shame in re-thinking a decision. There's no shame! I know it feels that way. And that makes any effort to go back a truly difficult prospect, I'm sure. But I hope you can move forward despite the fear of shame and contact your T. It's not moving backwards, it's forwards. By re-thinking this, you are still working hard on trying to do what's best for you.
>
> I should call her, but like you, pride gets in the way.Can you email her? Write he a letter? Have someone else call? Or call when you know you will get the answering machine? All these might be easier.
I'm thinking of you. (((((Poet))))
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on October 11, 2004, at 11:26:11
In reply to Re: I quit therapy- Feeling Very Sad (Long) » Poet, posted by gardenergirl on October 9, 2004, at 19:32:30
Posted by Poet on October 11, 2004, at 12:23:55
In reply to Re: Emotional confetti » Poet, posted by fallsfall on October 9, 2004, at 16:41:49
I would never pat you on the head(s) and tell you to go away. I wasn't ignoring your post.
I will try the library for the Skill Training manual. The public libraries are all linked together, so I would think that one of them might have it. A university library is a possibility, too.
I think that shame can be felt and dealt. For me, the shame about quitting therapy and then going back is of my own creation. My therapist didn't shame me, I shamed me.
I am projecting onto her my feeling that it's a bad thing. We interpret the same act differently. She would probably by trying hard to convince me that I didn't do a bad thing as hard as I would be trying to convince her that I did.
Is something good or bad is up to the individual. It's okay to disagree, but I can see your point about that those who disagree are uninformed. The only way I'll get more informed or she will is if I call her and I still can't get myself to do it.
Poet
I hope this made sense.
Posted by Poet on October 11, 2004, at 15:28:54
In reply to Poet, how are you doing? (nm), posted by gardenergirl on October 11, 2004, at 11:26:11
Hi GG,
I'm still low. Too ashamed to call her. I know that the only one who feels that calling her is shameful is me. I am an expert in self shame and blame.
I don't know of anyone who would call her for me. My husband won't. He got me the name of a therapist that I *might like.* I liked my last therapist. I quit therapy because I can't do therapy, it wasn't because of anything she said or did. I can do therapy with pdoc, it isn't my therapist, it's that I can only trust so far and say so much. I would be stuck with anyone as the problem is with me.
I'm trying to get up the courage to call her when I think she's not there, though she would call me back and that would be awkward, too. I have her email address, but I don't know if she shares it with a business partner. But her partner is a therapist, too, it's not like she wouldn't get that it's private.
Thanks for caring. I really need my babble friends now. I wish I had babbled before I quit.I wish I wish I wish. I had the sense to realize that re-evaluating a decision is not shameful.
Poet
Posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2004, at 16:47:35
In reply to Re: Emotional confetti » fallsfall, posted by Poet on October 11, 2004, at 12:23:55
Poet,
Can you see this as a "therapeutic opportunity"? That here you have a situation where you see shame, but the other person (your therapist) doesn't - that this is an opportunity for you to take a chance and see what happens when you admit your shame? That this might be a place where you can take the chance to try it the first time - a place where you can feel like even if it doesn't work out well, at least your therapist won't tell the world about it. I'm guessing that it *will* work out well, but I know that I need to be able to see that my losses will be limited if I am going to have the courage to try something new.
Changing therapists doesn't seem like the solution to me. It was nice of your hubby to try to help, even though he doesn't really understand the problem.
Be good to yourself.
Posted by Annierose on October 11, 2004, at 19:03:03
In reply to Re: Emotional confetti » fallsfall, posted by Poet on October 11, 2004, at 12:23:55
Poet - I can almost feel your pain when reading your posts. I wish you could/would call her and leave a message. She would be thrilled to hear from you, I am certain. I agree w/Fallsfall, the theraputic relationship is a SAFE PLACE to feel everything, even if it is uncomfortable. That is part of the growing, and it is so darn HARD and PAINFUL, but it is safe. I hope you will take a chance. You can do this! You are strong and courageous!
Posted by gardenergirl on October 11, 2004, at 19:10:47
In reply to Re: Poet, how are you doing? » gardenergirl, posted by Poet on October 11, 2004, at 15:28:54
>I had the sense to realize that re-evaluating a decision is not shameful.
Poet,
I hope I didn't come on too strong in my post before. I just know from my own experiene how powerful shame is. And I wanted to give you some kudos.Warmly,
gg
Posted by just plain jane on October 12, 2004, at 1:59:06
In reply to Re: Poet, how are you doing? » Poet, posted by gardenergirl on October 11, 2004, at 19:10:47
Shame, for me, plays back the belittling harangue of parents and parrotting children,
"Shame on you! You are BAD!!"
"You have shamed us!" (because you are/did bad)
"Such shameful behavior"
"It is such a shame that _____ "Shame and bad were synonymous terms in my growing up. They are still, in most cases.
I had to be ashamed of myself because I:
- was foolish enough to speak up. How could I possibly even have a thought?
- had made a "mess"
- had looked crosseyed at the wrong time
- wet my pants/bed
- sucked my thumb
- made an appearance while there was company
- was soo UGLY
- didn't know what my 3 (older) siblings knew (what!!! by osmosis?????)
- stammered occasionally
- dared try to sing in harmony with my 3 siblings (I could)
- made an attempt at humor
- made my mother unhappy by my mere existence
- forgot (something - anything)
- got less than A+ on anything
- didn't want to eat something
- was scared to... anything
- et cetera until we are all blue in the face.
I WAS A BAD GIRL!!!! I SHOULD BE ASHAMED!!!
Truth be found out later (from other family and friends) I was NOT a bad girl, not even NEAR a bad girl.But I still know shame.
I still fight against that drowning pull of shame, of being bad.It still hurts, even though it is a memory, a ghost.
Shame is a manipulative tool to beat someone('s self) to an emotional pulp. It is a voracious disease which could eat you alive, leaving in its wake a shell of fear and self hatred.
SHAME is BAD.
jane
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 7:30:45
In reply to Re: Poet, how are you doing? » gardenergirl, posted by Poet on October 11, 2004, at 15:28:54
It seems like this is one of those moments where there's a chance to take a relationship to a new level.
When she takes you back warmly, it's a trust building opportunity.
When you contact her and ask, it's a trust building opportunity.
What you did wasn't shameful. Or if it was, I've been shamed at least half dozen times. I think it's a reasonably normal part of therapy. And therapists know that. Didn't she reply as if she knew that?
But even though it wasn't shameful, it's in the past. It is now part of your history. You have an opportunity now to write your future history. You can choose whether you do something you'll later be proud of. Calling her would take a lot of courage, and that would be something to be very very proud of. There's no need to have an awkward phone conversation. Just call her and leave a message when you know she's unlikely to be able to answer. Something like
"Hey. It's me, Poet. I'd really like to talk about what happened. Can we make an appointment to do that?"
I'd be proud of you, not only for showing the courage to go after what you want, but also for taking the leap of faith it requires to deepen a relationship. Don't you think that's something to be proud of?
You can always talk about the rest of it when you get there.
Posted by Poet on October 12, 2004, at 12:21:45
In reply to Re: Emotional confetti » Poet, posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2004, at 16:47:35
I'm trying to see it as a therapeutic opportunity, but my distorted mental vision won't put on glasses so it's clear.
Changing therapists is definitely not the solution. Going back to my therapist is, I just can't make that phone call or write something, I just freeze up. Just like I do in therapy when I can't talk about something, darn it.
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 12, 2004, at 12:25:59
In reply to Re: Emotional confetti, posted by Annierose on October 11, 2004, at 19:03:03
Hi Annie,
Growing is hard and painful. I just thought that my growth was stunted and therapy just wasn't for me.
I hope I can get up the courage to call. I know I've got everybody here to catch me if I fall.
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 12, 2004, at 12:28:23
In reply to Re: Poet, how are you doing? » Poet, posted by gardenergirl on October 11, 2004, at 19:10:47
Hi GG,
You weren't being harsh, you were being honest. I got myself into this mental mess and it's up to me to try to find the courage to get out of it. Making a phone call or writing something should be so easy, but I feel like a teenager who has a crush and hangs up when the boy answers.
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 12, 2004, at 12:33:33
In reply to shame, posted by just plain jane on October 12, 2004, at 1:59:06
Jane,
<<I still fight against that drowning pull of shame, of being bad.
<<It still hurts, even though it is a memory, a ghost.
<<Shame is a manipulative tool to beat someone('s self) to an emotional pulp. It is a voracious disease which could eat you alive, leaving in its wake a shell of fear and self hatred.
<SHAME is BAD.
I wish you didn't understand shame so well. Everything you said is true and your childhood sounds very much like mine.
Shame and blame, they did it to me and then I took over and started doing it to myself. A bad habit and one that I have yet to break.
WE ARE NOT BAD!!! NOT, NOT, NOT!
Poet
Posted by Poet on October 12, 2004, at 12:40:50
In reply to Poet?, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 7:30:45
It is a trust building opportunity. I only trust her 50 percent, but that's more than I trust anyone else. She would take me back warmly. It's just me that's cold with fear, shame, failure and all the other ridiculous feelings that I have built walls out of to keep her out.
I'm trying to convince myself to call her. The only time I know she wouldn't answer the phone is Thursday at 10. She has a staff meeting then, I know because she'd change my time to accomodate it. But Thursday is a long way off and I am still periodically bursting into tears, so I may have to dig deep for the courage sooner.
Keep up the pep talk! I need all the encouragement I can get.
Poet
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