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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
I think I've written here about the "experiment" we are trying in therapy. The basic idea is that I'm supposed to call him whenever I want/need to, even if I "just" feel sad and lonely. He wants me to see what happens if I just cave into the need to touch base.
The first few weeks of this experiment, I only called once, which resulted in an extra session. But this weekend was a disaster, too much work, too much kid stress and a fight with hubby that sent me over the top. So I called him on Friday (work stress), left a late message Saturday and ended up talking to him for an hour on Sunday afternoon (he called back).
Today during my session, he was THRILLED, and said he thought the "experiment" was "working" and we should keep the agreement in place. I said that I felt horrible about being so intrusive and needy. I also voiced my opinion that I thought the experiment was to mentally allow me to reach out so that I didn't actually do it. He laughed at me! And then said, "no, no, no. it really was OK that we had so much contact this weekend. I think you needed me and that is what I want you to get comfortable with."
And then he wanted to know how I felt about missing sessions this week (I'm away from home). I said it made me sad and a little nervous because I've been so stressed out. He offered a phone session, in the evening but I told him maybe the time away would be good for me. Kind of like a "do I really need this much therapy" test. Man! He did not like that. He basically said, "This is not what we are working on. I don't think you should force this "test", it only adds more stress that you don't need." I told him how conflicted I felt and he let me struggle for a while about all this. Ultimately he said, "I'd like to have a phone session with you. I think we agree that you do better when we check in a lot." So I caved and agreed. We spent the rest of the session on trust and need and accessing support. I talked about self-soothing skills and he said, "you've been doing that your whole life. It's not a bad thing, I just don't think it is the only thing. Sometimes the best way to soothe is to let someone else help you."
I left feeling put together and on the drive down here, thought about the session and wondered why, if it makes me feel so much better, do I still fight this so much? I don't know what I'm trying to prove, except maybe that I can "do it myself," but I can't, so???? This is so frustrating sometimes. I guess that is why he keeps coming back to this, my "core" issues -- needing and trusting. They don't make medications for this, I don't think.
Posted by rs on July 27, 2004, at 6:09:35
In reply to The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
Hi Daisy. Remember he cares and you deserve him May I ask a question and this is hopefull not out of bounds. Is maybe the little girl scared of rejection along the way? I know have some that are so so scared that T will just leave and when do reach out and no response it hurts so much in many different ways. Daisy please reach out and let him care. You deserve it.
Posted by fallsfall on July 27, 2004, at 7:19:20
In reply to The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
I know this is so hard for you. I'm so glad you agreed to the phone session. He is wonderful.
And so are you.
Posted by Klokka on July 27, 2004, at 8:21:51
In reply to The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
Hi Daisy. Wouldn't it be so much easier if they did have medication for it? I can kindof relate to not knowing the why being so frustrating. This summer my pdoc and I have gone over topic after topic where we just couldn't figure out where the feelings are coming from. I'm glad your T is being so supportive and that you agreed to the phone session. Hope your week isn't TOO stressful. Take care!
Posted by gardenergirl on July 27, 2004, at 9:21:49
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by Klokka on July 27, 2004, at 8:21:51
Daisy,
Wow, that sounds so hard. I know you are so independent and competent with work related and family care-taking stuff. So I can see how letting that go and "giving in" to someone else taking care of you could be so hard. And scary.I'm so proud of you for continuing to work on this!
Take care,
gg
Posted by Poet on July 27, 2004, at 16:16:46
In reply to The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
Hi Daisy,
I wish there was a medication that created trust, make mine a double with hot fudge. Your T genuinely cares about you, try hard to let him.
Poet
Posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 23:37:24
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by Poet on July 27, 2004, at 16:16:46
Thanks you guys. It is nice to log on and see familiar "faces." I'm struggling way more than I thought I would down here. I barely slept and wanted to run from the whole think after lunch today. I have to keep reminding myself that I DO know what I'm talking about. That the bored looking person in the back would be bored no matter who was talking.
I'm glad I took myself to the Mall afterwards for a few hours of brainless shopping. It was nice to recharge, then flop in a chair to eat and not have to clean it up!
It is a bad time to be away from home. My youngest is going through a tough time with all this preteen junk and he has been increasingly worried about me. It gets hard to hide these roller coaster emotions sometimes.
I guess writing this just reenforces that I'm glad I getting a phone session tomorrow. Who knows what shape I'll be in by then!
Hugs for all.
Daisy
Posted by pegasus on July 28, 2004, at 12:53:46
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 23:37:24
Oh, Daisy, it sounds so hard. I'm glad you got some recharge out of your shopping. :) And that you didn't have to make or clean up after dinner. That is one nice thing about traveling, isn't it.
And I'm really glad that you are having a phone therapy session tomorrow. Your T sounds fabulous to encourage you so strongly there. Please let us know how it goes, when you get a chance. I always love to hear stories about how your T handles things.
(((Daisy)))pegasus
Posted by starlight on July 29, 2004, at 11:29:28
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by pegasus on July 28, 2004, at 12:53:46
I've never had a therapist say that to me. I've had therapists say call me if you need to, but I've always prided myself on being independent and strong and taken the words "need to" to mean if I'm in a crisis of some sort. That seems so strange to me and I wouldn't know how to take it if a therapist did say that to me, or insisted that I call, even when I was having suicidal ideation. I've never been actively suicidal, but I have and do fantasize about it occasionally, but always manage to just keep going.
I'd probably leave a therapist that said that to me, for fear that he was trying to hit on me or something odd. It is reassuring though, and nice - on one hand I wish I had someone that would say that to me, but on the other hand, I wouldn't know how to take it.
starlight
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2004, at 13:41:21
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on July 29, 2004, at 11:29:28
>>>I'd probably leave a therapist that said that to me, for fear that he was trying to hit on me or something odd. It is reassuring though, and nice - on one hand I wish I had someone that would say that to me, but on the other hand, I wouldn't know how to take it.
I was really struck by your interpretation...I guess you'd have to know my Therapist but I'd be willing to bet you would NEVER take his concern as hitting on you. He just doesn't come across that way. But I hear what you are saying about that pride thing...it gets in my way all the time. I have always been very independent and very strong. So it is hard for me to let myself ask for and receive support, especially this kind of emotional holding. But as my Therapist loves to point out, being independent isn't working anymore.
I took myself into therapy looking for help with how to cope with my life...so now I have to let myself utilize the help. And part of that is having a therapist who is willing to push past the executive saying, "no, no, I'm fine. I can handle it myself" to the little kid, who is terrified of falling apart. He does it in a way that doesn't make me think that he thinks I'm weak or not self-sufficient. He is very supportive and respectful about all these internal conflicts. He just thinks I shouldn't torture myself in the loneliness.
And usually, I end up being very glad that he pushes.
Posted by starlight on July 29, 2004, at 16:04:46
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues ? starlight, posted by daisym on July 29, 2004, at 13:41:21
Does he charge you for this? It's just so hard for me to imagine. I'm so good at appearing strong on the outside, but sometimes on the inside I feel like I'm falling apart. And, I'd be afraid of becoming dependent on my therapist. I'm like you in that I've always had to be strong to survive. I'm the first born and come from a hell house so strength is a big part of my identity. I think if I appear to be weak I'm a lesser person, although I know that's not really true.
I also think that having that need to be strong and self sufficient is very draining and keeps me from connecting with people. I notice that when I have problems with people I become very superficial and protect myself by refusing to connect on a deeper level, which leaves me feeling ensures my aloneness and protection. I've learned to like my aloneness, THAT's something that protected me early on from the abuse in my house. It was better to be alone than to be in the house with my unpredictable father. So time alone was soothing and people were scary. I prefer dogs! My husband has even commented on the superficiality of my relationships. I care about people alot, but don't want to get hurt, so I consider that a self protective mechanism.
Still - calling my therapist would probably be beyond me.
starlight
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2004, at 18:25:18
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on July 29, 2004, at 16:04:46
I pay him for phone sessions. The rest we play by ear...if it turns into a really long check-in (it becomes a session) I pay him. If it is 5 or 15 minutes...I don't. My insurance company doesn't seem to care if it is phone or not. It is "contact."
Dependent is an interesting word. What does that mean? If it is I can't make a move without his input, that's not it at all. I just presented 1.5 million dollar budget to my Board of Directors with no input from my therapist. :)
But if "dependent" is about using him to manage my stress, pain and loneliness, then I am dependent on him. He prefers the word attached, and we talk about attachment theory and disorders all the time. Basically we are approaching therapy as a learning experience --- it IS ok to let someone care about you, even if they don't NEED you and it is OK for you to care about them, even if you do NEED them.
We've moved our theoretical conversations lately to Self-psychology and Winnicott. If you are familiar with this, he is allowing me to borrow his core self while I recreate mine. Basically being a self-object for me. It helps me when I think of my needs in this context.
I hope you find a way to trust at some point. As much as I struggle with this sometimes, when I can and do allow "it" I'm glad I have it.
Posted by starlight on July 30, 2004, at 14:32:32
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues ? starlight, posted by daisym on July 29, 2004, at 18:25:18
I think the other thing that would be difficult for me is that I would feel like I were paying him to be dependent on him rather than him being a friend and willing to give of himself without renumeration. That to me would feel superficial.
I'm dependent on people and trust them. My husband, my boss, my friends and coworkers, my bandmates and others. They support me and I support them in many ways, but like I said, if I get hurt I'll go the more superficial route to protect myself. And it takes a long time for me to trust.
I've continually been uprooted in my life and the last major event was going through Hurricane Andrew. I was in my house and lost everything, even walked outside during the eye of the storm to assess the damage before the second half of the storm kicked in. I learned alot from that, mainly that things are only temporary. I think that has something to do with my 'investment' approach.
I'm glad that approach is working for you. I'm amazed really as it seems so unusual to me. But like I said, paying for it would make it seem superficial. It's kind of like he's being a friend and supporting you, but what happens the moment you can't see him any longer? Like he gets in a car wreck (god forbid) or something. Who do you depend on then? What happens to your core?
I'm not trying to be the devil's advocate or anything, I've just never heard of that approach.
starlight
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 16:04:36
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on July 30, 2004, at 14:32:32
>>>I'm glad that approach is working for you. I'm amazed really as it seems so unusual to me. But like I said, paying for it would make it seem superficial. It's kind of like he's being a friend and supporting you, but what happens the moment you can't see him any longer? Like he gets in a car wreck (god forbid) or something. Who do you depend on then? What happens to your core?
<<<My instinct when I read your last post was to run from this discussion because you are asking all the same questions I ask ALL THE TIME!!! It is hard to give yourself over to this. I don't think the kind of therapy we are doing is unusual -- Self-psychology is based on self-objects and maintaining a strong, consistent presence that builds trust and "resets" the internal structures that were built around past experiences. It is very much relationship psychotherapy. Read Kohut or Winnicott or even Yalom.
But I also want to make it clear that I have friends and family that can support me but they aren't my therapist. They don't know very much of what I'm going through, and I'm not willing to share it with them. It is complicated by the fact that I work with most of my friends (we started a company together) and I'm the senior executive. So most of them can't handle me falling apart, or they can't/don't see it. And truthfully I don't want them to see it. I've been told my whole life that I'm smart and strong and I can handle anything. Guess what? I can't.
My therapist does provide intense support but since it is part of my therapy, I expect to pay for it. Otherwise the lines get blurred. I don't WANT him to be my friend. It doesn't seem anymore superficial than meeting in his office. He actually uses that phrase "YOUR therapy" when we talked about this, as in one size does not fit all. I get continually freaked out that I'm being a pain in the a**, you know the client that you roll your eyes when you hear their voice on the answering machine. He tries to help me see that what I need may not be what someone else would need. He is very aware of how much I've isolated myself due to my position and he is VERY aware of how stressful my life is: I run a nonprofit for disabled infants and toddlers, so I deal with business/no money issues, these kids die and I have a staff of all women who bicker; my husband has two chronic illnesses and he is basically dying, I have three boys, one who has diabetes and one who has an anxiety disorder and I'm on a million and one kid, school and political committees. Add in the intrusive memories and flashbacks of csa, well geez...OK, that just come pouring out.
See...I'm still defensive about why I'm so stress and get upset with myself that I don't handle it ALL the way I use to. Using my therapist to help me manage the stress isn't easy for me, but seems necessary at this point. He tells me I won't need him like this forever, that things are shifting and I'm getting stronger and better about accessing support irl. And that's true.
As far as something happening to him...I've thought about it. We've talked about it because illness is so much a part of what I'm dealing with. He got sick last winter and canceled for a week...I was freaked out. It took awhile for me to trust that he wasn't going to die (thus leaving me). I think we are back to talking about trust -- that they can handle all the neediness, that they aren't going to disappear and that they genuinely care about you, even if you pay them.
I see that question about caring and paying interwoven here (on the board) a lot. As I've said before -- I work with clients and I get paid to do that. But I love the babies I work with and I care about their families. When one dies, it is very sad and the whole place gets upset. When they graduate from our program, I'm so glad that they are moving on, and I miss them terribly. I think about some of my clients when I'm not with them and wonder how things are, especially if they are having a difficult week. They call to ask questions or get support or to tell me something really exciting that happened with their child. My responses don't feel artificial to me, and I don't think to them, even though this is my job and I get paid for it. Trust me, there are easier ways to make money than human services of any kind...including therapy.
I think we all struggle with wanting to handle "our" life on "our" own. But my therapist argues, very eloquently, that if we were all taught interdependent skills as kids, we wouldn't end up with so many people being stoic about asking for help (independent) or being so demanding that they drive everyone crazy (dependent).
OK, I've just laid all his arguments about why I should allow myself access to his support as much as I need to...and I sound like I wholeheartedly embrace this. I don't want to mislead you. It is STILL a struggle for me, to accept that I do need him and to not feel mortified by how much. Which is why you see my posts continually about fighting this demon. So I wrote the above as much for me as for you. I don't know if this makes it clearer or muddier.
Anyone else agree or disagree?
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 22:05:50
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues, posted by starlight on July 30, 2004, at 14:32:32
If you had been a fly on the wall between my therapist and I as we struggled and fought our way to a good relationship, you'd see that it is possible for a relationship to be deep and complex despite the exchange of cash.
Yes, he is providing a fee for service. But there are many many levels to a therapeutic relationship. The only given across all levels is that everything in the relationship be geared towards the client's benefit. But that doesn't mean it has to be fake or superficial.
I've put a lot of work into the relationship to get past my issues, to successfully negotiate the boundaries of the relationship, to learn about how anger can strengthen a relationship. Yes, all those things were beneficial to me, and helped me in the real world (or at least part of the real world). But they were also all part of a real relationship. We weren't faking all those arguments and misunderstandings and rapprochements.
And he worked hard at overcoming his issues (yes, I suspect I triggered one or three or six), and at learning to trust me after I had bitten him over and over and over during the testing period, and at being honest with me rather than giving the standard therapeutic response, but also without being hurtful. And it was beneficial to me to watch someone be able to do that, and to be willing to do that to build a relationship with me.
Yes it's "just" a therapeutic relationship, but any relationship that caused that much trouble to both participants must be a real one, even if it is one limited in scope.
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 22:56:53
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » starlight, posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 22:05:50
For the effort expended by my therapist to build a genuine therapeutic relationship.
As I've said before, I considered it a major advance when he stopped using euphemisms for angry or mad and started admitting it, while simultaneously reassuring me of his commitment to work through the anger.
Another time was when I had decided to trust him. The relationship had changed from my point of view, but I could tell that he hadn't yet absorbed the change.
During the five years I tested our relationship, I had been a brat at times. I quit therapy a half dozen times. I said very rude things to him. I told him that he didn't mean anything at all to me, that I wouldn't miss him when I left him. That he could leave and just rent me his office by the hour, because it was his office that made me feel safe, not him.
When I decided to trust him, and my attitude toward him took a radical shift, I was frustrated at what I suddenly realized was a very guarded and distrustful attitude on his part. Not rude. Polite. And perfectly justified by my behavior. But he'd make remarks about my quitting, or my not needing him, that no longer made sense to me in view of my changed attitude.
One day I asked him, when the iron was cold and it wasn't an issue, if he thought he could ever quit seeing the me he saw for five years, and start seeing the person who was sitting across from him today. The person who wouldn't say or do the things he was constantly anticipating.
It was an odd moment. He rather visibly had a moment of self awareness. He admitted that some of my statements in the past had been hurtful to him. He admitted that while I had been telling him that the relationship had changed on my part, he hadn't really processed it. He promised to try to start trusting me, and over the next few months he implemented his promise.
He might not even remember this. But to me it was a huge moment in understanding that relationships can change if both people are open and willing to work at it.
And again, that's something that happens in a real relationship, and there's nothing superficial about it.
Posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
In reply to Another Long explanation » starlight, posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 16:04:36
Daisy,
I just have to chime in and say this post is so articulate, so beautifully descriptive, that it just really stirs my emotions. You are blessed with a top-notch T. and your T. is blessed w/an amazingly strong, determined, sensitive client! So great for you both w/all you are contending w/in life. Thanks so much for taking your precious time to craft this post (and so many others)so people like me can learn. It's more helpful than maybe you imagine.
I haven't yet posted much here - one thread a few weeks back re: painful termination. I'm 4 weeks "post-last session" and still hurting, of course, missing my T. and fondly/sadly recalling some of the more powerful, profound exchanges we had. When I read your comments, I just know given time my T. and I would have built a similar rapport and weathered similar struggles. Lost opportunity with the regret it brings, hurts even more sometimes, but on the flip side, I smile being so thankful to have had 8 awesome months with him. Daisy, you are incredible on Babble...no doubt even more so IRW. Thanks again for sharing such intimate things so often and so eloquently. plz don't stop... - 10derheart
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 9:49:37
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » daisym, posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
I agree with 10Der Heart. I've often told you how much I admire your therapist. But I'm not sure I've ever conveyed how much I admire the work you're doing in therapy, and your courage in sharing it here.
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 9:52:51
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » daisym, posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
I'm sorry you're hurting, 10Der Heart. But it sounds like you're appropriately grieving the loss of an important relationship. I'm happy to hear that you are able to remember your therapist with fondness.
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:01:53
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » daisym, posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2004, at 9:19:12
Thanks very much. Often I wonder if I get too detailed, too wordy. I'm the kind of person when I put my fingers on a keyboard the words just pour out so it is hard to stop. Your kind words really touched me. I have to tell you I was thinking this morning that maybe I'm writing too much, too long and too often, so I should step back. Timing, as they say, is everything.
I'm sorry you are sad and missing your T. But you sound like you are making the effort to look at it positively and hang on to the things you shared. Are you thinking about another therapist? I hope you post more. I like the way you put words together..."Lost opportunity with the regret it brings, hurts even more sometimes"...what a great sentence!
You made me smile. Thank you for that.
Daisy
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:06:33
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation - Daisy, posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 9:49:37
Thanks Dinah,
It was nice of you to say that. There are days (weeks) that I feel like I'm getting no where fast. And I wonder if I should just give up and accept that I'm always going to carry this ghost of sadness with me. For sure the present challenges are enough. Knowing my son feels and sees it makes it even worse and I want desperately to stuff it forcefully back in the box and keep it there.
I also want to say that reading your posts about independence up and down here reinforce what I have been trying to explain. You do it so well, and your experiences provide a sort of trail for me. Thank you for sharing so much.
Posted by LauraG on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:45
In reply to The Experiment Continues, posted by daisym on July 27, 2004, at 2:14:01
This is my first post, I've been reading for the past week or so but this thread just made me feel so.... I think this is such a great experiment that your T has you doing! I wish mine would do it too. I'm on my first (and hopefully only) T and I think she is a really great listener and the doc who referred me to her said she has a good reputation. One complaint would be that she holds back so much. I think she figures it is implied that I should call her whenever I "need" her, only I'm never sure exactly when that should be. I always feel like I should be strong and deal with whatever is going on. I'm not sure what is important enough to call her for. One time I did call her about something she had mentioned during a session, and she said "You can't do therapy over the phone." Am I wrong to feel like that means I need to hold on to stuff until my next session? I love that your T wants you to call even just to leave a message (is what I understood).
I'm so envious of those of you whose therapists tell you that they care about you. That too seems to be implied for my T. I know they are all different, but I just wish I could hear this from her also. I get from reading here that this is normal, but is it normal for her to hold that back when I've told her I want that?
Thanks all!
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 14:04:20
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by LauraG on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:45
Welcome to Babble,
How long have you been seeing your T? Sometimes that makes a difference in how much trust you have built up. Also, they never know what we are feeling unless we tell them. I think mine should be able to read my mind, but she just doesn't seem to get it! Imagine that..
Also, about the phone therapy and keeping it together between sessions. My T doesn't encourage more than once a week unless I'm really struggling over something and then she will ask me to come back in or if I want to. She believes that I need the week to process my feelings, but I know she's there if I need her. This has worked well for me.
Like many others, I've struggled about calling her, but I've developed a rule of my own. If I'm feeling so bad to the point of obsessing and not being able to concentrate on my life, then I call her. Doesn't matter how important it may be, if it's bothering me it's important to get it out.
I told my T this week ON THE PHONE that she does therapy for me even when she's not around. She teaches me all the time. While phone therapy doesn't work for everyone, there are certainly many, many people who do phone therapy. Maybe yours doesn't like to.
Try to speak with her as honestly as you can.
best,
antigua
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 14:07:57
In reply to Re: Another Long explanation » 10derHeart, posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:01:53
Daisy, please don't ever stop writing (unless you don't need to, of course). You have helped so very many people on this board and I've appreciated your willingness to share.
best,
antigua
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 14:55:26
In reply to Re: The Experiment Continues » daisym, posted by LauraG on July 31, 2004, at 12:09:45
Laura, welcome to Babble.
You ask really good questions. How long have you been in therapy? This is also my first therapist and I have been at it about 14 months. I think most of this depends totally on the type of therapist you have and what your issues are. There is such a thing as "optimal" frustration and many therapists hold back so that you can find your own way, or project out the stuff you need to be dealing with.
And even within certain discliplines, they all have their own styles, as I'm sure you've discovered here by reading. You have to figure out what you are comfortable with, if you are making progress on whatever issues brought you into therapy and what your goals are. And this changes as you go along.
I agree with Antigua. Talking to your therapist about all of this is the best way to get what you need. But remember, what you need may not be what you want. (I hate that!)
That said, I do feel really lucky that my therapist is who he is. :)
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