![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pandawat on December 4, 2007, at 20:35:13
Hi Tepi. I've been doing some research like I said. I found out that the Bible doesn't say anything about if suicide is a mortal sin or not. But do you really want to take that chance? I sure don't! I know sometimes if feels like death would be so peaceful and you would get away from all your problems and depression. But the truth is that some people will go to heaven and some will go to hell. You really need to know where you stand with God, I mean even if you don't take your own life.....if you go out tomorrow and get hit by a car and you die, will you go to heaven? I really think that is the important thing - whether or not we have a relationship with Jesus. What do you think?
I would really like to be your friend. I hope you don't decide to harm yourself. There are plenty of people out there who will help you.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 5, 2007, at 15:25:39
In reply to Tepi please read this, posted by pandawat on December 4, 2007, at 20:35:13
> Hi Tepi. I've been doing some research like I said. I found out that the Bible doesn't say anything about if suicide is a mortal sin or not. But do you really want to take that chance? I sure don't! I know sometimes if feels like death would be so peaceful and you would get away from all your problems and depression. But the truth is that some people will go to heaven and some will go to hell. You really need to know where you stand with God, I mean even if you don't take your own life.....if you go out tomorrow and get hit by a car and you die, will you go to heaven? I really think that is the important thing - whether or not we have a relationship with Jesus. What do you think?
>
> I would really like to be your friend. I hope you don't decide to harm yourself. There are plenty of people out there who will help you.pandawat,
You wrote,[...the bible doesn't...the truth is that some people...You really need to know...I really think...Jesus...].
If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.What do you base your statement,{...the bible doesn't...} on?
B.What authority do you use to write that {...the truth is...}?
C. If someone really needs to know, how can they know?
D. Which Jesus are you referring to in relation to the Jesus' that have been promulgated throughout history?
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 6, 2007, at 15:02:30
In reply to Lou's request to pandawat for clarification- » pandawat, posted by Lou Pilder on December 5, 2007, at 15:25:39
Speaking personally here......
If there is a God who puts people in hell for eternity for suicide in response to overwhelming psychic pain, then I do not care how powerful and mighty he is.
If such is the case He needs some ethical instruction.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2007, at 18:29:50
In reply to Re: Lou's request to pandawat for clarification-, posted by Sigismund on December 6, 2007, at 15:02:30
> Speaking personally here......
>
> If there is a God who puts people in hell for eternity for suicide in response to overwhelming psychic pain, then I do not care how powerful and mighty he is.
>
> If such is the case He needs some ethical instruction.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...if there is a God who...in response to...I do not...He needs...]
If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.Is the subject here the God of the bible?
B.If so, are you aware that there is a list of things in the bible that condemns someone to the Lake of Fire?
C. If you have knowlege of the list, is suicide in the list?
D. Do you think that the Lake of Fire mentioned in the bibile is the same as Hell?
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 6, 2007, at 22:35:12
In reply to Lou's request for clarification to Sigismund-eth » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 6, 2007, at 18:29:50
Hello Lou
>Sigismund,
You wrote,[...if there is a God who...in response to...I do not...He needs...]
If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A.Is the subject here the God of the bible?No Lou, not necessarily.
The God I am referring to is the God in the first post.
OTOH I cannot tell you much about this God
>B.If so, are you aware that there is a list of things in the bible that condemns someone to the Lake of Fire?Maybe. The Bible is a big book.
Jesus said the only sin that could not be forgiven was the sin against the Holy Spirit.
I'm sure you could find all sorts of things in (say) Leviticus.
While we're on this Lou, are you aware of an injunction in the Bible relating to Gryphons (sp?)?>D. Do you think that the Lake of Fire mentioned in the bibile is the same as Hell?
The concept of hell has changed over time. The Greek and Jewish ideas were quite different.
It seems to have been left to Christians to develop the vengeful version.
I've always felt it was a metaphor for mental states that got into the wrong hands.
OTOH, I can appreciate these lines from Little Gidding.
They come close to saying that the God of love is also the God who fires up the lake, but I like them anyway.The dove descending breaks the air
With flame of incandescent terror
Of which the tongues declare
The one discharge from sin and error.
The only hope, or else despair
Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre—
To be redeemed from fire by fire.Who then devised the torment? Love.
Love is the unfamiliar Name
Behind the hands that wove
The intolerable shirt of flame
Which human power cannot remove.
We only live, only suspire
Consumed by either fire or fire.
Posted by Sigismund on December 6, 2007, at 22:42:18
In reply to Sigismund's reply to » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 6, 2007, at 22:35:12
Is there anywhere in the Bible apart from Revelations that even mentions the lake of fire?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 7, 2007, at 9:20:24
In reply to Sigismund's reply to » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 6, 2007, at 22:35:12
> Hello Lou
>
> >Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...if there is a God who...in response to...I do not...He needs...]
> If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A.Is the subject here the God of the bible?
>
> No Lou, not necessarily.
> The God I am referring to is the God in the first post.
> OTOH I cannot tell you much about this God
>
>
> >B.If so, are you aware that there is a list of things in the bible that condemns someone to the Lake of Fire?
>
> Maybe. The Bible is a big book.
> Jesus said the only sin that could not be forgiven was the sin against the Holy Spirit.
> I'm sure you could find all sorts of things in (say) Leviticus.
> While we're on this Lou, are you aware of an injunction in the Bible relating to Gryphons (sp?)?
>
> >D. Do you think that the Lake of Fire mentioned in the bibile is the same as Hell?
>
> The concept of hell has changed over time. The Greek and Jewish ideas were quite different.
> It seems to have been left to Christians to develop the vengeful version.
> I've always felt it was a metaphor for mental states that got into the wrong hands.
>
>
> OTOH, I can appreciate these lines from Little Gidding.
> They come close to saying that the God of love is also the God who fires up the lake, but I like them anyway.
>
> The dove descending breaks the air
> With flame of incandescent terror
> Of which the tongues declare
> The one discharge from sin and error.
> The only hope, or else despair
> Lies in the choice of pyre of pyre—
> To be redeemed from fire by fire.
>
> Who then devised the torment? Love.
> Love is the unfamiliar Name
> Behind the hands that wove
> The intolerable shirt of flame
> Which human power cannot remove.
> We only live, only suspire
> Consumed by either fire or fire.
>
> Sigismund,
You wrote,[...said that the only sin that can not be forgiven...].
The bible writes about how sins are forgiven. There are things mentioned that one can do to have sins forgiven. In relation to the topic here concerning suicide in relation to what the bible says, or doesn't say, could you comment on the following? If so, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Can only people that are alive have their sins forgiven?
B. If so, what could they do to have their sins forgiven?
C. After death, could one have their sins forgiven? If so, how could that be done?
D. Is there faith after death?
Lou
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 7, 2007, at 11:40:22
In reply to Tepi please read this, posted by pandawat on December 4, 2007, at 20:35:13
> the truth is that some people will go to heaven and some will go to hell.
Thanks for supporting Tepi. And welcome to Psycho-Babble Faith. I hope you keep posting here, but there's one thing about this board I'd like to ask you to keep in mind. People of different faiths sometimes have different views of what's true, so to be sensitive to the views of others, I ask people here to say "I believe xxx" or "people of my faith believe xxx" instead of "the truth is xxx".
Please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7889.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on December 7, 2007, at 20:32:38
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-aftrdeth » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 7, 2007, at 9:20:24
Hey Lou
I'm no expert on this.>A. Can only people that are alive have their sins forgiven?
That's the idea.
>B. If so, what could they do to have their sins forgiven?Repent, which (I feel obliged to say) must be a real and heartfelt repentance with appropriate actions resulting.
>C. After death, could one have their sins forgiven? If so, how could that be done?Lou, do you really want me to rehearse these well worn ideas that I myself do not hold?
Well, here goes....
Sins are forgiven because the sacrifice of Christ was a suitable offering allowing God to forgive us (don't ask me why this should be so).
But the process involves repentance before death.
OTOH, it is clearly not possible for all sins to have been repented of, for many sins must surely be unknown to the perpetrators.
So in that case, what happens?
If the sin is (shall we say?) venal, maybe Christ's sacrifice without specific repentance should cover it.
>D. Is there faith after death?I think the Biblical line would have to be that there is faith after death.
Those in heaven would have it, those in hell would be shown the error of their ways and would be repenting (too late!) there.
Even those in Purgatory, Limbo and wherever else souls might go should be informed of the new state of affairs.It is to be expected that we should make God in our image.
What I find interesting is the development of the idea that God loved us such as to lay down his life for us.
I'm very much less impressed by the idea of eternal life. To continue with TS Eliot...'I was born, and once was enough'.But since you've got me going: Constantine theology seems cumbersome, though easy enough to grasp, and perhaps it was some such committee that allowed Revelations into the canon.
I prefer this, from the uncanonical Gospel according to Thomas.
'Jesus saw children who were being suckled. He said to his disciples: These children who are being suckled are like those who enter the Kingdom. They said to him: Shall we then, being children, enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female not be female, when you make eyes in the place of an eye and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot, and an image in the place of an image, then shall you enter the Kingdom.'
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2007, at 2:07:09
In reply to Life, the Universe and Everything » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 7, 2007, at 20:32:38
> Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female not be female, when you make eyes in the place of an eye and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot, and an image in the place of an image, then shall you enter the Kingdom.'
Oh lordy, it's time for me to get to bed because I read this and immediately pictured a Picasso. ;)
gg
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 8, 2007, at 9:03:31
In reply to Life, the Universe and Everything » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 7, 2007, at 20:32:38
> Hey Lou
> I'm no expert on this.
>
> >A. Can only people that are alive have their sins forgiven?
>
> That's the idea.
>
>
> >B. If so, what could they do to have their sins forgiven?
>
> Repent, which (I feel obliged to say) must be a real and heartfelt repentance with appropriate actions resulting.
>
>
> >C. After death, could one have their sins forgiven? If so, how could that be done?
>
> Lou, do you really want me to rehearse these well worn ideas that I myself do not hold?
> Well, here goes....
> Sins are forgiven because the sacrifice of Christ was a suitable offering allowing God to forgive us (don't ask me why this should be so).
> But the process involves repentance before death.
> OTOH, it is clearly not possible for all sins to have been repented of, for many sins must surely be unknown to the perpetrators.
> So in that case, what happens?
> If the sin is (shall we say?) venal, maybe Christ's sacrifice without specific repentance should cover it.
>
>
> >D. Is there faith after death?
>
> I think the Biblical line would have to be that there is faith after death.
> Those in heaven would have it, those in hell would be shown the error of their ways and would be repenting (too late!) there.
> Even those in Purgatory, Limbo and wherever else souls might go should be informed of the new state of affairs.
>
> It is to be expected that we should make God in our image.
> What I find interesting is the development of the idea that God loved us such as to lay down his life for us.
> I'm very much less impressed by the idea of eternal life. To continue with TS Eliot...'I was born, and once was enough'.
>
> But since you've got me going: Constantine theology seems cumbersome, though easy enough to grasp, and perhaps it was some such committee that allowed Revelations into the canon.
>
> I prefer this, from the uncanonical Gospel according to Thomas.
>
> 'Jesus saw children who were being suckled. He said to his disciples: These children who are being suckled are like those who enter the Kingdom. They said to him: Shall we then, being children, enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female not be female, when you make eyes in the place of an eye and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot, and an image in the place of an image, then shall you enter the Kingdom.'Sigmimund,
You wrote,[....repent...]
The idea of repentance is pictured in the bible that the Jews use as a cleansing. John, the generally accepted author of the book of Revelation and the book according to John and other books was a Jew and his readers that were Jews could know of what he was writing about. The {Lake of Fire} written about in the book of Revelation is a Jewish symbol connected in a way along with baptism. This {baptism} figures into the biblical revelation concerning {forgivness} which could be intertwined with {repentance} from the Jewish perspective. This same John wrote that his baptizing was with water unto repentance, but that there will be a baptizing with {fire}. Since he was speaking to Jews at that time, the symbol of {baptism with fire} was likely something that Jews could understand. As a Jew, I understnd what is meant and how it relates to {The Lake of Fire} and then how I could explain aspects of this thread in relation to the initiator's post which concerns suicide.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 13:47:36
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-rpnt » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 8, 2007, at 9:03:31
Lou, I'm assuming that the John of Revelations is the same John who wrote the Gospel, and my irritation with him is something I will gladly control (though I draw the line at 'the wrathful Lamb'), should you be able to tell me anything about him, or the Lake of Fire, forgiveness and whatever else, .
While you're at it, I wonder if you could tell me about Jewish belief relating to.....
the afterlife (if any)
the continuation or not of the soul after death
and heaven and hell?
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 14:49:48
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-rpnt » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 8, 2007, at 9:03:31
>Since he was speaking to Jews at that time, the symbol of {baptism with fire} was likely something that Jews could understand. As a Jew, I understnd what is meant and how it relates to {The Lake of Fire}
Lou, what do you understand 'baptism with fire' to refer to?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 8, 2007, at 20:19:57
In reply to Gospel, Revelation, Lake of Fire » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 13:47:36
> Lou, I'm assuming that the John of Revelations is the same John who wrote the Gospel, and my irritation with him is something I will gladly control (though I draw the line at 'the wrathful Lamb'), should you be able to tell me anything about him, or the Lake of Fire, forgiveness and whatever else, .
>
> While you're at it, I wonder if you could tell me about Jewish belief relating to.....
> the afterlife (if any)
> the continuation or not of the soul after death
> and heaven and hell?Sigismund,
You asked above about many aspects of what has been revealed to me as a Jew. The Jews sacred scriptures have Psalms that were written mainly by King David, about half of them, and going back to Moses in 1400 BCE up to around 500 BCE. One Psalm of David writes;
[...God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave...] (49)
Psalm 23 writes,[...And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever...].
David in the Psalms speaks to life after death and a resurrection from the grave. Later Danial wrote about two resurrections. Not with a time frame, but just that there will be them.[...and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...]. (ch.12)
John wrote also about Danial's statement and myself being a Jew, I can understand what his writings were about as them being written by a Jew keeping in mind that the Jews were most of the apostles and early adherants to John's writings and that Jesus of Nazareth was a Rabbi. Going further, when His desciples urged Him to heal a women's daughter that was said to be demon posessed, He said,"I was not sent except the lost sheep of the house of Isreal." One of the aspects of the issue here of suicde is about [...the lost sheep...].
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 21:56:54
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-lstshp » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 8, 2007, at 20:19:57
So Lou, I take it that the belief in an afterlife, heaven and hell, is not an explicit doctrine, as it is with Christians?
The Apostles Creed is interesting on this subject....
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.Amen.
I suppose descending into hell was related to some earlier (Jewish?) idea of hell being more like sheol (believe me, I know nothing about this) where the souls of the dead were gathered together.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 9, 2007, at 10:23:51
In reply to Doctrine » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 21:56:54
> So Lou, I take it that the belief in an afterlife, heaven and hell, is not an explicit doctrine, as it is with Christians?
>
> The Apostles Creed is interesting on this subject....
>
> I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
> the Creator of heaven and earth,
> and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
>
> Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
> born of the Virgin Mary,
> suffered under Pontius Pilate,
> was crucified, died, and was buried.
>
> He descended into hell.
>
>
> The third day He arose again from the dead.
>
> He ascended into heaven
> and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
> whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
>
> I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
> the communion of saints,
> the forgiveness of sins,
> the resurrection of the body,
> and life everlasting.
>
> Amen.
>
> I suppose descending into hell was related to some earlier (Jewish?) idea of hell being more like sheol (believe me, I know nothing about this) where the souls of the dead were gathered together.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...the belief in an afterlife...is not an explicit doctrine, as it is with Christians?..]
The writings of the Christian bible are from mostly Jews. The apostle Paul was Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee.
The belief in an afterlife is in the scriptures that were known by the authors of the books that make up the Christian bible.
Let us look at Ecclesiates 12:7
{Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.} Here we have a parallel to the book of Genesis where God made man out of the dust of the ground and will return to the ground as dust. In that book, God breathed the breath of life into man. Here the spirit will return to God {who gave it}.
Keeping in mind the subject of this thread being suicide and what the bible teaches or doesn't teach. I offer my perspective and being a Jew, my contribution to this thread will be from a Jewish perspective.
In the first chapter of Ezekial, he was shown a vision that he describes as a valley of dry bones. In his conversation with God, God says that He will cause breath to come into the bones and flesh upon them and they shall live and that God will open the graves and cause them to come out from them and He will put a spirit in them and they shall live.
John being a Jew penned the book of Revelation and in 21 he wrote;
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, niether sorrow, nor crying, neither shall ther be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. This is in his description of the new heaven and a new earth which he writes is inherited by those that Overcome. He then gives a list of those that do not inherit this new earth that have their part in the Lake of Fire which is called the second death.
John as a Jew could have rmembered the passage from Isaiah in 25 that reads;
[...He shall swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away all tears from off all faces...].
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 9, 2007, at 15:25:32
In reply to Lou's reply to sigismund-aftrlf » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 9, 2007, at 10:23:51
Thank you Lou
For this
>One of the aspects of the issue here of suicide is about [...the lost sheep...].
and the only bit of Revelations that I can remember liking
>And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Maybe Revelations was written during the Diocletian terror and that explains the tone of it?
But the Gospel of John is not great on the Jews. I was listening once to the St John Passion and where you get to (if I remember correctly, and this is from memory) the text saying 'His blood be on us and on our children and on our children's children', Bach does a grim and impressive fugue and the whole thing has so much historical resonance that the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I felt guilty for that, both together.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 10, 2007, at 19:05:09
In reply to Sigismund's reply to » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 9, 2007, at 15:25:32
> Thank you Lou
>
> For this
>
> >One of the aspects of the issue here of suicide is about [...the lost sheep...].
>
> and the only bit of Revelations that I can remember liking
>
> >And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
>
> Maybe Revelations was written during the Diocletian terror and that explains the tone of it?
>
> But the Gospel of John is not great on the Jews. I was listening once to the St John Passion and where you get to (if I remember correctly, and this is from memory) the text saying 'His blood be on us and on our children and on our children's children', Bach does a grim and impressive fugue and the whole thing has so much historical resonance that the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I felt guilty for that, both together.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...Thank you Lou for this...the lost sheep...]
The book of Revelation is the only book in the bible that says that it offers the listener or reader a blessing. (ch 1).
The contents of the book was revealed to me many years ago in, lets say, a vision of sorts. I came to a very tall Gate that opened and I saw a Great Gulf that was joined by a narrow bridge. When I went through the gate it closed behind me and I had no choice but to go across. There was a Rider on a White Horse on the other side that I could barely see. When I reached the other side of the Gulf one of the first things that He said to me was,"My sheep hear my voice and they follow me."
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 10, 2007, at 23:57:53
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund- » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 10, 2007, at 19:05:09
from "Cries and Whispers"
Agnes has died young after a painful illness, and this prayer is said over her body......
God, our Father, in His infinite wisdom and mercy has decided to call you home in the flower of your youth. You submitted to it patiently and uncomplainingly in the certain knowledge your sins would be forgiven through the death on the cross of your Lord, Jesus Christ. May your Father in Heaven have mercy on your soul when you step into his presence. May he let his angels disrobe you of the memory of your earthly pain.(The chaplain now addresses Agnes's spirit.)
If it is so that you have gathered our suffering in your poor body, if it is so that you have borne it with you through death, if it is so that you meet God over there in the other land, if it is so that He turns His face toward you, if it is so that you can speak the language this God understands, if it is so that you can speak to this God. If it is so, pray for us. Agnes, my dear child, listen to what I am now telling you. Pray for us who are left here on this dark and dirty earth under an empty and cruel Heaven. Lay your burden of suffering at God's feet, and ask Him to pardon us. Ask Him to free us at last from our anxiety, our weariness and our deep doubt. Ask Him for a meaning to our lives. Agnes, you who have suffered so uncomplainingly and so long, you must be worthy to plead our cause.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 10:26:22
In reply to Lake of Fire » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 14:49:48
> >Since he was speaking to Jews at that time, the symbol of {baptism with fire} was likely something that Jews could understand. As a Jew, I understnd what is meant and how it relates to {The Lake of Fire}
>
> Lou, what do you understand 'baptism with fire' to refer to?Sigismund,
You wrote,[...Lou,what do you understand 'baptism with fire' to refer to?...]
The phrase was spoken to Jews so it could mean that those Jews could have an understanding of what that means.
Let us look at some verses in the scriptures used by the Jews of that time that it was innitialy said to them.In Jeremiah 23 (29),
Is not my word like a fire?In Lamentations 1 (13)
From above, He has sent fire into my bonesIn Malachi 3 (2)
But who can undure the day of His comming? And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner's fireIn Ezekial 38 (19)
For in...My fire of My wrath I have spokenIn Zephaniah 3 (8)
All the earth shall be destroyed with the fire of my zeal
Here we have fire depicted in a spiritual sense. In a baptism of fire, if the baptism was literal fire, would not anyone baptzed with a literal fire burn?
Now God's fire is written as a {refiner's} fire, and does not a refiner's fire purify? And if God has sent fire into someone's bones, could that not be a spirtiual fire? If that fire was literal, the person that wrote about that happening to them could be dead, could they not?
In that it is written that His word is like a fire, a person reading His word , or hearing His word, if it spiritual like a refiner's fire, could not that person be purified?
More about the baptism of fire and The Lake of Fire...
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 13:45:20
In reply to The Chaplain's Prayer » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 10, 2007, at 23:57:53
Lou, just to go back a bit to your vision.....
>I came to a very tall Gate that opened and I saw a Great Gulf that was joined by a narrow bridge
Maybe the image of a great gulf spanned by a narrow bridge brought that prayer to mind.
For is this not an image of the abyss?
>If it is so that you have gathered our suffering in your poor body, if it is so that you have borne it with you through death, if it is so that you meet God over there in the other land, if it is so that He turns His face toward you, if it is so that you can speak the language this God understands, if it is so that you can speak to this God. If it is so, pray for us. Agnes, my dear child, listen to what I am now telling you. Pray for us who are left here on this dark and dirty earth under an empty and cruel Heaven.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 15:38:59
In reply to Sigismund's reply to Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 13:45:20
> Lou, just to go back a bit to your vision.....
>
> >I came to a very tall Gate that opened and I saw a Great Gulf that was joined by a narrow bridge
>
> Maybe the image of a great gulf spanned by a narrow bridge brought that prayer to mind.
>
> For is this not an image of the abyss?
>
> >If it is so that you have gathered our suffering in your poor body, if it is so that you have borne it with you through death, if it is so that you meet God over there in the other land, if it is so that He turns His face toward you, if it is so that you can speak the language this God understands, if it is so that you can speak to this God. If it is so, pray for us. Agnes, my dear child, listen to what I am now telling you. Pray for us who are left here on this dark and dirty earth under an empty and cruel Heaven.
>
>
Sigismund,
You wrote,[...maybe the image of the Great Gulf spanned by the narrow bridge brought that prayer to mind...].
You may have a great insight into what I have been writing here. You see, the Great Gulf can be known to Jews because the Great Gulf exists. It is the rift that has the Jordan River flowing through it making a spactacular canyon in the area of now Israel and Jordan. In some writings of the ancient Jews, the afterlife was depicted as compartments with a river flowing through it. Some ancient Greek writings speak of the River Styx? (sp) with a boat going from one side to the other.
The ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were located there and were destroyed by fire.
But the River Jordan needed to be crossed to enter the land of milk and honey by the ancient Israeites, the promise to Abraham, the Land of Canaan, The Promised Land. I believe that others have had such visions, perhaps M.L. King. And I believe that that is what he meant when he said, "I have seen the Promised Land."
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 17:29:07
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund- » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 15:38:59
'From wrong to wrong the exasperated spirit
Proceeds, unless restored by that refining fire
Where you must move in measure, like a dancer.'
Eliot again, Little Gidding.Lou, somewhere he refers to a vision Ezekiel had concerning, in part, if I remember correctly, a dark crystal.
That ring any bells with you?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 20:23:48
In reply to Fire » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 17:29:07
> 'From wrong to wrong the exasperated spirit
> Proceeds, unless restored by that refining fire
> Where you must move in measure, like a dancer.'
> Eliot again, Little Gidding.
>
> Lou, somewhere he refers to a vision Ezekiel had concerning, in part, if I remember correctly, a dark crystal.
>
> That ring any bells with you?Sigismund,
In the book of Revelation, John uses what Jews could understand in relation to him describing the New Jerusalam as to the walls and gates. In Ezekial, he writes about his vision of a temple and John's vision describes the city as a precious stone and decorated in precious stones.
These are symbols and there are others there such as The River of Life and The Tree of Life and pearls of enormous size. The pearls are symbols. Later, a symbol of The Bright and Morning Star is written about that can be tied into the entire revelation.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 12, 2007, at 2:15:13
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-Ezek » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 20:23:48
Well Lou
>In Ezekiel, he writes about his vision of a temple and John's vision describes the city as a precious stone and >decorated in precious stones.
>These are symbols and there are others there such as The River of Life and The Tree of Life and pearls of >enormous size. The pearls are symbols. Later, a symbol of The Bright and Morning StarYou make it sound very nice.
I was thinking of this passage today as I felt half crazy
>From wrong to wrong the exasperated spirit
> Proceeds, unless restored by that refining fire
> Where you must move in measure, like a dancer.'and I was thinking that I'd always tried to find the right words to keep me out of the fire inside.
So that people didn't walk up to me and say 'Are you depressed?'Some words which were true and therefore somehow kept the thinker free from suffering?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Faith | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.