![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 21:56:54
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-lstshp » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 8, 2007, at 20:19:57
So Lou, I take it that the belief in an afterlife, heaven and hell, is not an explicit doctrine, as it is with Christians?
The Apostles Creed is interesting on this subject....
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.Amen.
I suppose descending into hell was related to some earlier (Jewish?) idea of hell being more like sheol (believe me, I know nothing about this) where the souls of the dead were gathered together.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 9, 2007, at 10:23:51
In reply to Doctrine » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 21:56:54
> So Lou, I take it that the belief in an afterlife, heaven and hell, is not an explicit doctrine, as it is with Christians?
>
> The Apostles Creed is interesting on this subject....
>
> I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
> the Creator of heaven and earth,
> and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
>
> Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
> born of the Virgin Mary,
> suffered under Pontius Pilate,
> was crucified, died, and was buried.
>
> He descended into hell.
>
>
> The third day He arose again from the dead.
>
> He ascended into heaven
> and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
> whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
>
> I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
> the communion of saints,
> the forgiveness of sins,
> the resurrection of the body,
> and life everlasting.
>
> Amen.
>
> I suppose descending into hell was related to some earlier (Jewish?) idea of hell being more like sheol (believe me, I know nothing about this) where the souls of the dead were gathered together.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...the belief in an afterlife...is not an explicit doctrine, as it is with Christians?..]
The writings of the Christian bible are from mostly Jews. The apostle Paul was Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee.
The belief in an afterlife is in the scriptures that were known by the authors of the books that make up the Christian bible.
Let us look at Ecclesiates 12:7
{Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.} Here we have a parallel to the book of Genesis where God made man out of the dust of the ground and will return to the ground as dust. In that book, God breathed the breath of life into man. Here the spirit will return to God {who gave it}.
Keeping in mind the subject of this thread being suicide and what the bible teaches or doesn't teach. I offer my perspective and being a Jew, my contribution to this thread will be from a Jewish perspective.
In the first chapter of Ezekial, he was shown a vision that he describes as a valley of dry bones. In his conversation with God, God says that He will cause breath to come into the bones and flesh upon them and they shall live and that God will open the graves and cause them to come out from them and He will put a spirit in them and they shall live.
John being a Jew penned the book of Revelation and in 21 he wrote;
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, niether sorrow, nor crying, neither shall ther be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. This is in his description of the new heaven and a new earth which he writes is inherited by those that Overcome. He then gives a list of those that do not inherit this new earth that have their part in the Lake of Fire which is called the second death.
John as a Jew could have rmembered the passage from Isaiah in 25 that reads;
[...He shall swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away all tears from off all faces...].
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 9, 2007, at 15:25:32
In reply to Lou's reply to sigismund-aftrlf » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 9, 2007, at 10:23:51
Thank you Lou
For this
>One of the aspects of the issue here of suicide is about [...the lost sheep...].
and the only bit of Revelations that I can remember liking
>And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Maybe Revelations was written during the Diocletian terror and that explains the tone of it?
But the Gospel of John is not great on the Jews. I was listening once to the St John Passion and where you get to (if I remember correctly, and this is from memory) the text saying 'His blood be on us and on our children and on our children's children', Bach does a grim and impressive fugue and the whole thing has so much historical resonance that the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I felt guilty for that, both together.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 10, 2007, at 19:05:09
In reply to Sigismund's reply to » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 9, 2007, at 15:25:32
> Thank you Lou
>
> For this
>
> >One of the aspects of the issue here of suicide is about [...the lost sheep...].
>
> and the only bit of Revelations that I can remember liking
>
> >And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
>
> Maybe Revelations was written during the Diocletian terror and that explains the tone of it?
>
> But the Gospel of John is not great on the Jews. I was listening once to the St John Passion and where you get to (if I remember correctly, and this is from memory) the text saying 'His blood be on us and on our children and on our children's children', Bach does a grim and impressive fugue and the whole thing has so much historical resonance that the hair stood up on the back of my neck and I felt guilty for that, both together.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...Thank you Lou for this...the lost sheep...]
The book of Revelation is the only book in the bible that says that it offers the listener or reader a blessing. (ch 1).
The contents of the book was revealed to me many years ago in, lets say, a vision of sorts. I came to a very tall Gate that opened and I saw a Great Gulf that was joined by a narrow bridge. When I went through the gate it closed behind me and I had no choice but to go across. There was a Rider on a White Horse on the other side that I could barely see. When I reached the other side of the Gulf one of the first things that He said to me was,"My sheep hear my voice and they follow me."
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 10, 2007, at 23:57:53
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund- » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 10, 2007, at 19:05:09
from "Cries and Whispers"
Agnes has died young after a painful illness, and this prayer is said over her body......
God, our Father, in His infinite wisdom and mercy has decided to call you home in the flower of your youth. You submitted to it patiently and uncomplainingly in the certain knowledge your sins would be forgiven through the death on the cross of your Lord, Jesus Christ. May your Father in Heaven have mercy on your soul when you step into his presence. May he let his angels disrobe you of the memory of your earthly pain.(The chaplain now addresses Agnes's spirit.)
If it is so that you have gathered our suffering in your poor body, if it is so that you have borne it with you through death, if it is so that you meet God over there in the other land, if it is so that He turns His face toward you, if it is so that you can speak the language this God understands, if it is so that you can speak to this God. If it is so, pray for us. Agnes, my dear child, listen to what I am now telling you. Pray for us who are left here on this dark and dirty earth under an empty and cruel Heaven. Lay your burden of suffering at God's feet, and ask Him to pardon us. Ask Him to free us at last from our anxiety, our weariness and our deep doubt. Ask Him for a meaning to our lives. Agnes, you who have suffered so uncomplainingly and so long, you must be worthy to plead our cause.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 10:26:22
In reply to Lake of Fire » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 14:49:48
> >Since he was speaking to Jews at that time, the symbol of {baptism with fire} was likely something that Jews could understand. As a Jew, I understnd what is meant and how it relates to {The Lake of Fire}
>
> Lou, what do you understand 'baptism with fire' to refer to?Sigismund,
You wrote,[...Lou,what do you understand 'baptism with fire' to refer to?...]
The phrase was spoken to Jews so it could mean that those Jews could have an understanding of what that means.
Let us look at some verses in the scriptures used by the Jews of that time that it was innitialy said to them.In Jeremiah 23 (29),
Is not my word like a fire?In Lamentations 1 (13)
From above, He has sent fire into my bonesIn Malachi 3 (2)
But who can undure the day of His comming? And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner's fireIn Ezekial 38 (19)
For in...My fire of My wrath I have spokenIn Zephaniah 3 (8)
All the earth shall be destroyed with the fire of my zeal
Here we have fire depicted in a spiritual sense. In a baptism of fire, if the baptism was literal fire, would not anyone baptzed with a literal fire burn?
Now God's fire is written as a {refiner's} fire, and does not a refiner's fire purify? And if God has sent fire into someone's bones, could that not be a spirtiual fire? If that fire was literal, the person that wrote about that happening to them could be dead, could they not?
In that it is written that His word is like a fire, a person reading His word , or hearing His word, if it spiritual like a refiner's fire, could not that person be purified?
More about the baptism of fire and The Lake of Fire...
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 13:45:20
In reply to The Chaplain's Prayer » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 10, 2007, at 23:57:53
Lou, just to go back a bit to your vision.....
>I came to a very tall Gate that opened and I saw a Great Gulf that was joined by a narrow bridge
Maybe the image of a great gulf spanned by a narrow bridge brought that prayer to mind.
For is this not an image of the abyss?
>If it is so that you have gathered our suffering in your poor body, if it is so that you have borne it with you through death, if it is so that you meet God over there in the other land, if it is so that He turns His face toward you, if it is so that you can speak the language this God understands, if it is so that you can speak to this God. If it is so, pray for us. Agnes, my dear child, listen to what I am now telling you. Pray for us who are left here on this dark and dirty earth under an empty and cruel Heaven.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 15:38:59
In reply to Sigismund's reply to Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 13:45:20
> Lou, just to go back a bit to your vision.....
>
> >I came to a very tall Gate that opened and I saw a Great Gulf that was joined by a narrow bridge
>
> Maybe the image of a great gulf spanned by a narrow bridge brought that prayer to mind.
>
> For is this not an image of the abyss?
>
> >If it is so that you have gathered our suffering in your poor body, if it is so that you have borne it with you through death, if it is so that you meet God over there in the other land, if it is so that He turns His face toward you, if it is so that you can speak the language this God understands, if it is so that you can speak to this God. If it is so, pray for us. Agnes, my dear child, listen to what I am now telling you. Pray for us who are left here on this dark and dirty earth under an empty and cruel Heaven.
>
>
Sigismund,
You wrote,[...maybe the image of the Great Gulf spanned by the narrow bridge brought that prayer to mind...].
You may have a great insight into what I have been writing here. You see, the Great Gulf can be known to Jews because the Great Gulf exists. It is the rift that has the Jordan River flowing through it making a spactacular canyon in the area of now Israel and Jordan. In some writings of the ancient Jews, the afterlife was depicted as compartments with a river flowing through it. Some ancient Greek writings speak of the River Styx? (sp) with a boat going from one side to the other.
The ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were located there and were destroyed by fire.
But the River Jordan needed to be crossed to enter the land of milk and honey by the ancient Israeites, the promise to Abraham, the Land of Canaan, The Promised Land. I believe that others have had such visions, perhaps M.L. King. And I believe that that is what he meant when he said, "I have seen the Promised Land."
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 17:29:07
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund- » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 15:38:59
'From wrong to wrong the exasperated spirit
Proceeds, unless restored by that refining fire
Where you must move in measure, like a dancer.'
Eliot again, Little Gidding.Lou, somewhere he refers to a vision Ezekiel had concerning, in part, if I remember correctly, a dark crystal.
That ring any bells with you?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 20:23:48
In reply to Fire » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 11, 2007, at 17:29:07
> 'From wrong to wrong the exasperated spirit
> Proceeds, unless restored by that refining fire
> Where you must move in measure, like a dancer.'
> Eliot again, Little Gidding.
>
> Lou, somewhere he refers to a vision Ezekiel had concerning, in part, if I remember correctly, a dark crystal.
>
> That ring any bells with you?Sigismund,
In the book of Revelation, John uses what Jews could understand in relation to him describing the New Jerusalam as to the walls and gates. In Ezekial, he writes about his vision of a temple and John's vision describes the city as a precious stone and decorated in precious stones.
These are symbols and there are others there such as The River of Life and The Tree of Life and pearls of enormous size. The pearls are symbols. Later, a symbol of The Bright and Morning Star is written about that can be tied into the entire revelation.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 12, 2007, at 2:15:13
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-Ezek » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 20:23:48
Well Lou
>In Ezekiel, he writes about his vision of a temple and John's vision describes the city as a precious stone and >decorated in precious stones.
>These are symbols and there are others there such as The River of Life and The Tree of Life and pearls of >enormous size. The pearls are symbols. Later, a symbol of The Bright and Morning StarYou make it sound very nice.
I was thinking of this passage today as I felt half crazy
>From wrong to wrong the exasperated spirit
> Proceeds, unless restored by that refining fire
> Where you must move in measure, like a dancer.'and I was thinking that I'd always tried to find the right words to keep me out of the fire inside.
So that people didn't walk up to me and say 'Are you depressed?'Some words which were true and therefore somehow kept the thinker free from suffering?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 13, 2007, at 12:48:29
In reply to Lou's request to pandawat for clarification- » pandawat, posted by Lou Pilder on December 5, 2007, at 15:25:39
> > Hi Tepi. I've been doing some research like I said. I found out that the Bible doesn't say anything about if suicide is a mortal sin or not. But do you really want to take that chance? I sure don't! I know sometimes if feels like death would be so peaceful and you would get away from all your problems and depression. But the truth is that some people will go to heaven and some will go to hell. You really need to know where you stand with God, I mean even if you don't take your own life.....if you go out tomorrow and get hit by a car and you die, will you go to heaven? I really think that is the important thing - whether or not we have a relationship with Jesus. What do you think?
> >
> > I would really like to be your friend. I hope you don't decide to harm yourself. There are plenty of people out there who will help you.
>
> pandawat,
> You wrote,[...the bible doesn't...the truth is that some people...You really need to know...I really think...Jesus...].
> If you could clarify the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A.What do you base your statement,{...the bible doesn't...} on?
> B.What authority do you use to write that {...the truth is...}?
> C. If someone really needs to know, how can they know?
> D. Which Jesus are you referring to in relation to the Jesus' that have been promulgated throughout history?
> LouSigismund,
Above is the original post to this thread. There are questions that I have to the innitiator of the thread that I am awaiting answers to. In the meantime, the originator was posting to another member concerning suicide in relation to what the bible says or does not say. Also, {needing to know} is part of the post and also the {truth} , I guess, concerning what the bible teaches or not because {going to heaven or hell} is connected with it and the bible is mentioned.
One aspect of the post is concerning {hell} and {heaven} and the bible. I think that your last post has a connection to that in relation to what you describe as {thinking} about words and such as to how particular thinking could cause depression. Could you expound more on that?
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 13, 2007, at 15:25:53
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-thnkng, posted by Lou Pilder on December 13, 2007, at 12:48:29
I think, Lou, I was looking at it the other way round......that certain thoughts, but more particularly words spoken, can help one escape mental pain, and that is where the Eliot quote came in. Except that for Eliot, the fire is restorative and refining, whereas I was thinking about finding the right words to avoid pain. So I used the metaphor of fire quite differently.
The problem with finding the right words to escape mental pain is, in my experience, that such words are unexpected and frequently provocative. This could easily be a reflection of the ignorance in which I am mired, of course.
Sometimes though, I do it. I actually manage to find the right words. When this happens it feels funny and anarchic, with psychological resonances.
It seems to be related to staying close to the thread of lived experience. This is why I find the question 'How are you?' so (needlessly?) confronting. The thread of lived experience perhaps does not like to be boxed in? This seems to be close to the question of what we find amusing, because that comes from somewhere that our conscious minds do not control. But our conscious minds can apprehend the thread and not violate it, and if they succeed in doing that we may escape pain.
I wish I could be more lucid.
Eliot himself experienced chronic depersonalisation, I feel sure.
I heard about these people who had taken some LSD. They'd planned to make a meal, but their plans were befuddled by the drug. Eventually one says to the other with great effort. "I've got an idea. We'll open this tin with this tin opener and put the contents in the saucepan and heat it up on the camp stove." And the other bloke says "You see, that's where you go wrong. As soon as you have an idea, you're wrong."
That's the sort of thing I mean, if it makes any sense.
Posted by Sigismund on December 13, 2007, at 15:28:11
In reply to About thinking » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 13, 2007, at 15:25:53
Maybe 'plan' there would be more appropriate than 'idea'?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 14, 2007, at 12:52:03
In reply to About thinking » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 13, 2007, at 15:25:53
> I think, Lou, I was looking at it the other way round......that certain thoughts, but more particularly words spoken, can help one escape mental pain, and that is where the Eliot quote came in. Except that for Eliot, the fire is restorative and refining, whereas I was thinking about finding the right words to avoid pain. So I used the metaphor of fire quite differently.
>
> The problem with finding the right words to escape mental pain is, in my experience, that such words are unexpected and frequently provocative. This could easily be a reflection of the ignorance in which I am mired, of course.
>
> Sometimes though, I do it. I actually manage to find the right words. When this happens it feels funny and anarchic, with psychological resonances.
>
> It seems to be related to staying close to the thread of lived experience. This is why I find the question 'How are you?' so (needlessly?) confronting. The thread of lived experience perhaps does not like to be boxed in? This seems to be close to the question of what we find amusing, because that comes from somewhere that our conscious minds do not control. But our conscious minds can apprehend the thread and not violate it, and if they succeed in doing that we may escape pain.
>
> I wish I could be more lucid.
>
> Eliot himself experienced chronic depersonalisation, I feel sure.
>
> I heard about these people who had taken some LSD. They'd planned to make a meal, but their plans were befuddled by the drug. Eventually one says to the other with great effort. "I've got an idea. We'll open this tin with this tin opener and put the contents in the saucepan and heat it up on the camp stove." And the other bloke says "You see, that's where you go wrong. As soon as you have an idea, you're wrong."
>
> That's the sort of thing I mean, if it makes any sense.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...certain thoghts...words...help escape mental pain...fire is restorative and refining...]
The topic here is the aspect of suicide and what the bible says or doesn't say about such and heaven and hell and death.
The bible does define what death is and connects such to The Lake of Fire. This knowlege of such could effect the thinking of a person IMO and have the potential IMO to be restorative and refining.
It has been revealed to me what death is and I could show from my perspective how this could have the potential IMO to be of great importance to the members of a mental-health community.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 14, 2007, at 20:31:53
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-dth » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 14, 2007, at 12:52:03
> It has been revealed to me what death is
Tell me then, Lou. I'm curious.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 15, 2007, at 8:45:23
In reply to Death » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 14, 2007, at 20:31:53
> > It has been revealed to me what death is
>
> Tell me then, Lou. I'm curious.
>
>
Sigismund,
You wrote,[...I'm curious...]
The bible writes about death in many ways. Some of the important verses are in the book of Revelation written by John who was a Jew and I think that what he wrote could be understood by a Jew that was versed in the scriptures that Jews used.
Let us look at some of the verses in that book.
The author writes that the book is to 7 {churches} which are in Asia. What is a {church}? The word in Greek is meaning a group that is {called out};[(ekklesia)]. This could be a group of Jews or others. So the book {could} have been written to Jewish congregations that were being persecuted by the Romans, for Jerusalam was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. These {churches} could have be made up of Jews and non-Jews that fled Rome.
The author writes in the first chapter that he was in a spiritual condition when he wrote the book. What he wrote was in symbols for he defines some of the symbols while others are contained in the ancient writings used by the Jews such as Danial and Isaiah and Ezekiel and David.
One verse in Revelation is;
[...And Death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire...]
Another writer of scripture , Paul, who was a Jew, wrote that [...The last {enemy} to be destroyed will be {death}...]. He said that Death is an {enemy}.
more ...
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 15, 2007, at 10:05:00
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-dthenmy » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 15, 2007, at 8:45:23
> > > It has been revealed to me what death is
> >
> > Tell me then, Lou. I'm curious.
> >
> >
> Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...I'm curious...]
> The bible writes about death in many ways. Some of the important verses are in the book of Revelation written by John who was a Jew and I think that what he wrote could be understood by a Jew that was versed in the scriptures that Jews used.
> Let us look at some of the verses in that book.
> The author writes that the book is to 7 {churches} which are in Asia. What is a {church}? The word in Greek is meaning a group that is {called out};[(ekklesia)]. This could be a group of Jews or others. So the book {could} have been written to Jewish congregations that were being persecuted by the Romans, for Jerusalam was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. These {churches} could have be made up of Jews and non-Jews that fled Rome.
> The author writes in the first chapter that he was in a spiritual condition when he wrote the book. What he wrote was in symbols for he defines some of the symbols while others are contained in the ancient writings used by the Jews such as Danial and Isaiah and Ezekiel and David.
> One verse in Revelation is;
> [...And Death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire...]
> Another writer of scripture , Paul, who was a Jew, wrote that [...The last {enemy} to be destroyed will be {death}...]. He said that Death is an {enemy}.
> more ...
> Lou
>
> Sigismund,
Another aspect of death that Jews could understnd as per reading John's writings is that in their scriptures they had a book that is called,{Deuteronomy} which is a Greek word from a Latin word. The Jews called their books by the first words of the book which in this case is,[...These are the words...].
The author is considered to be Moses near his death about 40 years after the Exodus. In the book, it reads in 30,
[...I call heaven and earth..today...I have set before you life and death...thearfore choose life...].
Jews that know of the scripture see that life and death can be a choice, but their God writes in their scriptures to >choose< life.
Lou
>
Posted by Sigismund on December 15, 2007, at 14:12:11
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-dthenmy-choice, posted by Lou Pilder on December 15, 2007, at 10:05:00
One does choose life, I suppose.
Not with much enthusiasm, but even so...The contents of consciousness are generally depressing, but the fact of consciousness without those contents, or even the feel of consciousness on its own, is like a miracle, and is one of the things I take Jesus to have meant when he said words to the effect that the Kingdom of Heaven is spread out before men but they do not see it.
So I suppose the way I see it, Lou, is that we should (try to) choose life, yes, but maybe death is a friend too.
Just not a very nice one, and the sort that does you in.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 15, 2007, at 18:41:29
In reply to Death: Friend or Enemy? » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 15, 2007, at 14:12:11
> One does choose life, I suppose.
> Not with much enthusiasm, but even so...
>
> The contents of consciousness are generally depressing, but the fact of consciousness without those contents, or even the feel of consciousness on its own, is like a miracle, and is one of the things I take Jesus to have meant when he said words to the effect that the Kingdom of Heaven is spread out before men but they do not see it.
>
> So I suppose the way I see it, Lou, is that we should (try to) choose life, yes, but maybe death is a friend too.
> Just not a very nice one, and the sort that does you in.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...he said words to the effect that The Kingdom of Heaven is spread out before men...].
Could you identify what he said that you are using to mean that? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 16, 2007, at 12:16:38
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund- Lake of Fire-1a » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2007, at 10:26:22
> > >Since he was speaking to Jews at that time, the symbol of {baptism with fire} was likely something that Jews could understand. As a Jew, I understnd what is meant and how it relates to {The Lake of Fire}
> >
> > Lou, what do you understand 'baptism with fire' to refer to?
>
> Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...Lou,what do you understand 'baptism with fire' to refer to?...]
> The phrase was spoken to Jews so it could mean that those Jews could have an understanding of what that means.
> Let us look at some verses in the scriptures used by the Jews of that time that it was innitialy said to them.
>
> In Jeremiah 23 (29),
> Is not my word like a fire?
>
> In Lamentations 1 (13)
> From above, He has sent fire into my bones
>
> In Malachi 3 (2)
> But who can undure the day of His comming? And who can stand when He appears?
> For He is like a refiner's fire
>
> In Ezekial 38 (19)
> For in...My fire of My wrath I have spoken
>
> In Zephaniah 3 (8)
> All the earth shall be destroyed with the fire of my zeal
>
> Here we have fire depicted in a spiritual sense. In a baptism of fire, if the baptism was literal fire, would not anyone baptzed with a literal fire burn?
> Now God's fire is written as a {refiner's} fire, and does not a refiner's fire purify? And if God has sent fire into someone's bones, could that not be a spirtiual fire? If that fire was literal, the person that wrote about that happening to them could be dead, could they not?
> In that it is written that His word is like a fire, a person reading His word , or hearing His word, if it spiritual like a refiner's fire, could not that person be purified?
> More about the baptism of fire and The Lake of Fire...
> LouSigismund,
You asked about baptism with fire. The Lake of Fire is either a symbol or a literal fire (or both or niether) used by John, a Jew in his writing the book known as the book of Revelation. Being a Jew, I think that John was writing what Jews could understand in the symbols that he used. As a Jew, I can understand the symbols used from my perspective as a Jew.
Let us look at the book called Exodus in the 25th chapter starting at verse 16. This book attributed to Moses describes God as we read;
[...Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. {The sight of the glory of the Lord was like >a consuming fire<} on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel...]. Later in an epistle to the Hebrews, in Chapter 12 verse 29 it reads;
[..For our God is a consuming fire...].
The writer of Revelaion goes on to write in chapter 20 verse 14,[...Then death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire.{This is the second death}...].
But in chapter 2 verse 11 the writer , John, a Jew, writes;
[...He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death...]. Does this mean that all experiamce the Lake of Fire but some may not be hurt by it? Could a Jew understand this?
Let us look at the book called Isaiah in the 43erd chapter starting in verse 1,
[...Fear not, for I have redeemed you;..when you pass through the waters, I will be with you;..When you walk throgh the fire you shall not be burned nor shall the flame scorch you.
more...
Lou
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Posted by Sigismund on December 16, 2007, at 13:52:52
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund- Lake of Fire-1b » Lou Pilder, posted by Lou Pilder on December 16, 2007, at 12:16:38
>..When you walk through the fire you shall not be burned nor shall the flame scorch you.
Makes me think of Daniel.
I hasten to say I don't know much of Daniel, just the bits Jehovah's Witnesses use to furnish their arguments.
During a dry patch once they were the only people I saw.I was thinking about that Kingdom of Heaven thing yesterday, but am afraid it was the wrong day entirely for that.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 16, 2007, at 19:12:28
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-dth » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on December 14, 2007, at 12:52:03
> > I think, Lou, I was looking at it the other way round......that certain thoughts, but more particularly words spoken, can help one escape mental pain, and that is where the Eliot quote came in. Except that for Eliot, the fire is restorative and refining, whereas I was thinking about finding the right words to avoid pain. So I used the metaphor of fire quite differently.
> >
> > The problem with finding the right words to escape mental pain is, in my experience, that such words are unexpected and frequently provocative. This could easily be a reflection of the ignorance in which I am mired, of course.
> >
> > Sometimes though, I do it. I actually manage to find the right words. When this happens it feels funny and anarchic, with psychological resonances.
> >
> > It seems to be related to staying close to the thread of lived experience. This is why I find the question 'How are you?' so (needlessly?) confronting. The thread of lived experience perhaps does not like to be boxed in? This seems to be close to the question of what we find amusing, because that comes from somewhere that our conscious minds do not control. But our conscious minds can apprehend the thread and not violate it, and if they succeed in doing that we may escape pain.
> >
> > I wish I could be more lucid.
> >
> > Eliot himself experienced chronic depersonalisation, I feel sure.
> >
> > I heard about these people who had taken some LSD. They'd planned to make a meal, but their plans were befuddled by the drug. Eventually one says to the other with great effort. "I've got an idea. We'll open this tin with this tin opener and put the contents in the saucepan and heat it up on the camp stove." And the other bloke says "You see, that's where you go wrong. As soon as you have an idea, you're wrong."
> >
> > That's the sort of thing I mean, if it makes any sense.
>
> Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...certain thoghts...words...help escape mental pain...fire is restorative and refining...]
> The topic here is the aspect of suicide and what the bible says or doesn't say about such and heaven and hell and death.
> The bible does define what death is and connects such to The Lake of Fire. This knowlege of such could effect the thinking of a person IMO and have the potential IMO to be restorative and refining.
> It has been revealed to me what death is and I could show from my perspective how this could have the potential IMO to be of great importance to the members of a mental-health community.
> LouSigismund,
The bible describes more than one type of death. So when John penned what is called the book of Revelation, him being a Jew could mean that he used symbols that Jews could know of.
In the book that is called Genesis, Adam and Eve were told by God not to eat of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil or they would die. They ate of the tree and the consequence was death. But they did not die right then. So what is this type of death?
In the book called Isaiah, in chapter 59 verse two, it reads,
[..But your iniquities have separated you from your God...] This separation from God is further described later as a death, a {spiritual} death. A death of the soul. A living death.
Later another writer wrote that one's thinking can put one in a state of spiritual death. The writer who was a Jew named Saul then Paul, wrote that to think in terms of just being an animal and in terms that you are your own sufficiency that does not consider humans to be spiritual creatures, could cause one to be in a state of death. And further, for one to think in terms of being a spiritual creature thinking of spiritual things, to be in a state of life.
Then this one called Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Rabbi, speaking to Jews, said to store up treasures in heaven. And that blessed are those that hunger and thirst for rightiousness. And blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. If one admints that they are poor in spirit, do they not then recognize a spiritual existance and condition, besides just being flesh and blood? Could not then one go from death to life by having a change in their thinking? For the bible defines this type of death in the book called Romans,[...to be carnally minded is death...].
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on December 17, 2007, at 13:30:03
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund-dth-sprtul, posted by Lou Pilder on December 16, 2007, at 19:12:28
Somewhere or other I read that the sermon on the Mount was a typical beatitude that had been added later.
I'm a bit conflicted on this.
On the one hand I can see that people who are abjectly suffering sometimes acquire a weird beauty that no doubt comes from their deep authenticity (this is starting to sound terrible, but it's the best I can do, and anyway, it's true).
It's probably the state of abjection rather than the suffering, which reminds me (and therefore I must mention it) of a big street sign in the city I live near, where someone had painted up 'Embrace the Abject', and I thought 'My goodness. Signs of intelligent life.'
In short Lou, what I am trying to say is that I feel the problem is less our carnal natures than our conscious minds.
Whaddya reckon?
How do our carnal natures fit with our conscious minds?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 18, 2007, at 9:53:41
In reply to Blessed are the poor in spirit? » Lou Pilder, posted by Sigismund on December 17, 2007, at 13:30:03
> Somewhere or other I read that the sermon on the Mount was a typical beatitude that had been added later.
>
> I'm a bit conflicted on this.
>
> On the one hand I can see that people who are abjectly suffering sometimes acquire a weird beauty that no doubt comes from their deep authenticity (this is starting to sound terrible, but it's the best I can do, and anyway, it's true).
>
> It's probably the state of abjection rather than the suffering, which reminds me (and therefore I must mention it) of a big street sign in the city I live near, where someone had painted up 'Embrace the Abject', and I thought 'My goodness. Signs of intelligent life.'
>
> In short Lou, what I am trying to say is that I feel the problem is less our carnal natures than our conscious minds.
>
> Whaddya reckon?
>
> How do our carnal natures fit with our conscious minds?Sigismund,
You wrote,[...The problem...How do...carnal natures...conscious minds?].
There is a proverb in the scriptures that the ancient Jews used that says in Proverb 23 verse 7;
[...For as one thinks in his heart, so is he...].
Lou
This is the end of the thread.
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