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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on July 29, 2011, at 19:52:30
Omegabrite is a fish oil preparation that contains EPA, but not DHA. EPA has been associated with improvement of depression, whereas DHA has been associated with worsening of depression.
Any feedback is welcome.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on July 31, 2011, at 13:53:52
In reply to Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by SLS on July 29, 2011, at 19:52:30
So it does have a little DHA, correct? I read a 7 to 1 ration, EPA to DHA. I think it's still very to get a little DHA in our diet anyway, so the amount in Omegabrite is a good thing. I doubt there are many out there that are that sensitive to a little DHA. I guess they would know if the ever ate any marine food sources.
I think it looks like a great product, especially for those that do really well with a much higher EPA to DHA ratio. I've found that with EPA and DHA omega 3s, it can be a trial and error thing. Some, actually do better with more DHA and less EPA. This would make sense as much of the good natural sources of marine omega 3s, like sardines, have more DHA than EPA. It could be that we evolution favors a higher DHA to EPA ratio, that seems to be more common in nature. Maybe where our ancestors lived in the world and the genes they've passed down to us makes a difference for some, who knows. I find it interesting that studies show higher EPA ratios work better for depression. I'm sure there is an explanation that involves the different mechanisms by which EPA and DHA work on the brain. I believe it is EPA that has more of an impact on suppressing inflammation, this could be one reason for it's effects on depression. Both EPA and DHA are crucial to brain function and brain health protection. I know DHA is believed to be very protective of eye health, and possibly against neurodegeneration, so it is just as important as EPA. Some may argue for DHA being more important for several reasons.
Whatever we think we believe about these omega 3s, they are both crucial. I guess the important thing for you and the rest of us is getting some relief and improving quality of life. If you try this product, I'd be interested in finding out if it helps you in any way. I sure hope it does Scott.
Morgan
Posted by SLS on July 31, 2011, at 21:36:11
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by morgan miller on July 31, 2011, at 13:53:52
Hi Morgan.
Thanks for the feedback. Which are the three top fish oil brands that you would suggest? How does flaxseed oil compare?
Thanks again.
- Scott> So it does have a little DHA, correct? I read a 7 to 1 ration, EPA to DHA. I think it's still very to get a little DHA in our diet anyway, so the amount in Omegabrite is a good thing. I doubt there are many out there that are that sensitive to a little DHA. I guess they would know if the ever ate any marine food sources.
>
> I think it looks like a great product, especially for those that do really well with a much higher EPA to DHA ratio. I've found that with EPA and DHA omega 3s, it can be a trial and error thing. Some, actually do better with more DHA and less EPA. This would make sense as much of the good natural sources of marine omega 3s, like sardines, have more DHA than EPA. It could be that we evolution favors a higher DHA to EPA ratio, that seems to be more common in nature. Maybe where our ancestors lived in the world and the genes they've passed down to us makes a difference for some, who knows. I find it interesting that studies show higher EPA ratios work better for depression. I'm sure there is an explanation that involves the different mechanisms by which EPA and DHA work on the brain. I believe it is EPA that has more of an impact on suppressing inflammation, this could be one reason for it's effects on depression. Both EPA and DHA are crucial to brain function and brain health protection. I know DHA is believed to be very protective of eye health, and possibly against neurodegeneration, so it is just as important as EPA. Some may argue for DHA being more important for several reasons.
>
> Whatever we think we believe about these omega 3s, they are both crucial. I guess the important thing for you and the rest of us is getting some relief and improving quality of life. If you try this product, I'd be interested in finding out if it helps you in any way. I sure hope it does Scott.
>
> Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on August 2, 2011, at 1:45:59
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only » morgan miller, posted by SLS on July 31, 2011, at 21:36:11
Hmm, that's a tough one. I think if you have the money, Minami looks pretty darn good. The most highly regarded fish oil brands by most are likely Carlson and Nordic Naturals. I'm sure you've already heard this. I personally think there are a lot of good ones out there. And I tend to not be too concerned about the heavy metals and other toxins. I would actually prefer to take a product that is simple from a naturally very clean source, one that does not have to be and is not processed and filtered-something more like a cold pressed fish oil. New Chapter actually does this with salmon, but they add oil to provide all the other fatty acids, which I already get plenty of in my diet. Then there are people like my co-worker that does fermented cod liver oil, out of the bottle, not in capsules. I understand her reasoning for this, but I don't know if I'm ready to make the committment myself.
Oh yeah, and then there is the Barlean's Omega Swirls. These taste great and have emulsified fish oil, which may be much better absorped.
Morgan
Posted by torrid on August 4, 2011, at 23:42:37
In reply to Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by SLS on July 29, 2011, at 19:52:30
I agree about the epa ratio. I eat walnuts and flax seed in aboundance, I believe they are ALA fats, that's omega 6 or omega 9 I think, I believe the body can convert ALA into omega 3. I'd love it if someone could explan it to me so I can better understand it. I think the ratio of omega 3's to 6's and 9's are important too.
Posted by morgan miller on August 5, 2011, at 17:26:22
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by torrid on August 4, 2011, at 23:42:37
Hey Torrid, ALA is an omega 3 that does concert to EPA and DHA to a certain degree that may vary between individuals. ALA does have some potential benefits as an omega 3, but EPA and DHA are believed to be far more important. It is thought that individuals eating a vegetarian or vegan diet may convert ALA to EPA and DHA more than meat eating individuals. I do not remember the reason why this may be the case. I do think it's interesting, if this is true, it seems evolution may have prepared us to get a good amount of beneficial EPA and DHA when we do not have access to meat, including marine life, as a food source
Posted by larryhoover on August 7, 2011, at 11:33:07
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by torrid on August 4, 2011, at 23:42:37
> I agree about the epa ratio. I eat walnuts and flax seed in aboundance, I believe they are ALA fats, that's omega 6 or omega 9 I think, I believe the body can convert ALA into omega 3. I'd love it if someone could explan it to me so I can better understand it. I think the ratio of omega 3's to 6's and 9's are important too.
I think there's a lot of confusion around ALA because its name is easily confused with an omega-6 fatty acid. In fact, I generally use ALNA when referring to alpha-linolenic acid (omega-3), rather than alpha-linoleic acid (omega-6). Note the missing n in the second name.
But those names are called trivial names by chemists. In geek-speak, the fatty acids are uniquely identified, every time. I'm going to use semi-geek-speak here.
ALNA is octadecatrienoic acid. Octadeca is greek for 18, and it has three unsaturated bonds (trienoic). It is a possible raw material for EPA, and in turn, DHA. Those fatty acids don't have trivial names. We only use the semi-geek-speak names: eicosa (20) pentaenoic (five unsaturated bonds) acid; and, docosa (22) hexaenoic (six unsaturated bonds) acid.
The 18, 20, and 22 refer to the length of the fatty acid, in the number of carbons in the backbone. Each of these fatty acids is a polyunsaturate (multiple unsaturated bonds between the carbons), and all are omega-3 fats. That means that the unsaturated bond furthest from the acid end of the fatty acid is in the 3rd position from the tail end. A shorthand way of saying omega 3 is n-3. And a shorthand for the 3 fatty acids mentioned here is 18:3 n-3 for ALNA, 20:5 n-3 for EPA, and 22:6 n-3 for DHA.
Converting 18:3 to 20:5 is a 3-step process. It must be once desaturated (now 18:4), then elongated (always in pairs, now 20:4), and then desaturated once more, yielding 20:5. And there are two steps more, required to get to 22:6.
The problem is that 2 of the enzymes required for this process are very inefficient. Moreover, omega-6 fats also use these same enzymes, and we all get far too much omega-6 fats in our diets, via vegetable oils. I read a paper a few years ago that used radio-tracer alpha-linolenic acid in some peoples' diets. They could detect the amount of the EPA and DHA came from the radioactive raw material, and only 1% of the EPA could be traced to alpha-linolenic acid, and none at all of the DHA.
Most terrestrial vegetables have virtually no EPA or DHA, but some marine vegetables and micro-algae produce these fats. Fish bioaccumulate these fats, with the highest concentrations found in the higher level predators (generally). Exceptions would be sardines and herring.
Vegetarians typically have half the EPA/DHA circulating in their bodies than do omnivores. It's a real challenge to get enough, or to optimize your internal conversions. I'll provide a link to an article on the subject, but I'd like to comment that I think their conversion numbers are cherry-picked from studies that have not been replicated by other researchers; I believe actual conversion rates are much lower than what is quoted here.
http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/020810p22.shtml
Lar
Posted by torrid on August 7, 2011, at 16:39:42
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only » torrid, posted by larryhoover on August 7, 2011, at 11:33:07
> > I agree about the epa ratio. I eat walnuts and flax seed in aboundance, I believe they are ALA fats, that's omega 6 or omega 9 I think, I believe the body can convert ALA into omega 3. I'd love it if someone could explan it to me so I can better understand it. I think the ratio of omega 3's to 6's and 9's are important too.
>
> I think there's a lot of confusion around ALA because its name is easily confused with an omega-6 fatty acid. In fact, I generally use ALNA when referring to alpha-linolenic acid (omega-3), rather than alpha-linoleic acid (omega-6). Note the missing n in the second name.
>
> But those names are called trivial names by chemists. In geek-speak, the fatty acids are uniquely identified, every time. I'm going to use semi-geek-speak here.
>
> ALNA is octadecatrienoic acid. Octadeca is greek for 18, and it has three unsaturated bonds (trienoic). It is a possible raw material for EPA, and in turn, DHA. Those fatty acids don't have trivial names. We only use the semi-geek-speak names: eicosa (20) pentaenoic (five unsaturated bonds) acid; and, docosa (22) hexaenoic (six unsaturated bonds) acid.
>
> The 18, 20, and 22 refer to the length of the fatty acid, in the number of carbons in the backbone. Each of these fatty acids is a polyunsaturate (multiple unsaturated bonds between the carbons), and all are omega-3 fats. That means that the unsaturated bond furthest from the acid end of the fatty acid is in the 3rd position from the tail end. A shorthand way of saying omega 3 is n-3. And a shorthand for the 3 fatty acids mentioned here is 18:3 n-3 for ALNA, 20:5 n-3 for EPA, and 22:6 n-3 for DHA.
>
> Converting 18:3 to 20:5 is a 3-step process. It must be once desaturated (now 18:4), then elongated (always in pairs, now 20:4), and then desaturated once more, yielding 20:5. And there are two steps more, required to get to 22:6.
>
> The problem is that 2 of the enzymes required for this process are very inefficient. Moreover, omega-6 fats also use these same enzymes, and we all get far too much omega-6 fats in our diets, via vegetable oils. I read a paper a few years ago that used radio-tracer alpha-linolenic acid in some peoples' diets. They could detect the amount of the EPA and DHA came from the radioactive raw material, and only 1% of the EPA could be traced to alpha-linolenic acid, and none at all of the DHA.
>
> Most terrestrial vegetables have virtually no EPA or DHA, but some marine vegetables and micro-algae produce these fats. Fish bioaccumulate these fats, with the highest concentrations found in the higher level predators (generally). Exceptions would be sardines and herring.
>
> Vegetarians typically have half the EPA/DHA circulating in their bodies than do omnivores. It's a real challenge to get enough, or to optimize your internal conversions. I'll provide a link to an article on the subject, but I'd like to comment that I think their conversion numbers are cherry-picked from studies that have not been replicated by other researchers; I believe actual conversion rates are much lower than what is quoted here.
>
> http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/020810p22.shtml
>
> LarI can deal with omega-3 and omega-6 but I'm to dislexic to see the difference in the alfa linolentic acids. I lack word recognition and spelling is a mistry to me.
I'm trying to increase my intake of EPA, walnuts and flax seeds, are they -3's or 6's?
I'm usung cold pressed grape seed oil for salid and a lesser quality grape seed oil for cooking, am I on track?
I'm thinking of adding watercress to my diet of raw vegtables, heard something on TV about watercress' health benifits
Glad to hear you experienced non tourist Rome, did you drink the wine in Itially. I'm use to home made wine made by my 3rd generation italian family and it's so good, I wonder what wine is like in Italy.
Posted by bleauberry on August 14, 2011, at 14:07:10
In reply to Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by SLS on July 29, 2011, at 19:52:30
I've seen both clinical and anecdotal evidence supporting either form. Go figure. The mileage varies thing I guess. I've tried various versions....differing ratios, isolated, etc...and honestly fish oil just made me globally worse physically and mentally. Which doesn't make any sense, but it is what it is. The only explanation I have been able to come up with is lyme related....that is, in lyme, the organisms secrete an enzyme that prevents the proper metabolism of the oils, so they instead are turned into pro-inflammatory substances instead.
Honestly I think the whole topic of fish oils in today's world is off base. We should be talking cod liver oil, not fish oil. The benefits and mechanisms trounce plain fish oils. My body likes a small amount of cod liver oil, but not fish oil, so that tells me something. I can't remember all the stuff I have read, but cod liver oil really has a bunch of extra goodies that go along with it, in addition to all the goodies that plain fish oil offers.
I have no experience with it, but I've seen claims that Krill fish oil is better than plain fish oil. Something unique about that particular fish. Dunno. For sure though, I favor cod liver oil over common fish oils.
As to either EPA or DHA, both made me much more depressed very fast. EPA was a stimulating nervous depression, DHA was a dull depression. I know you've tried some things that sent you into the deep dark real fast. Fish oil is one of those things with me. Cod liver oil, different story. I mean, it shows the amount of EPA and DHA right on the bottle, so I don't get why it's ok for me if it is from cod liver but not ok from fish. Dunno.
Anyway, fish oils of various ratios and kinds are certainly tops on the list for any chronic ailment or psych issue, imo.. Trial and error to find what works best for the individual.
Posted by SLS on August 14, 2011, at 15:28:34
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by bleauberry on August 14, 2011, at 14:07:10
Hi Bleauberry.
Thanks for sharing your experiences with fish oil. It was very helpful. I tried at least three times to reintroduce fish oil. Each time, it significantly exacerbated my depression. Not only that, but my friend's cat would run away from me while I took fish oil. Now that I haven't taken fish oil in over a week, the cat and I are best buddies again. Cats are intriguing creatures.
- Scott
> I've seen both clinical and anecdotal evidence supporting either form. Go figure. The mileage varies thing I guess. I've tried various versions....differing ratios, isolated, etc...and honestly fish oil just made me globally worse physically and mentally. Which doesn't make any sense, but it is what it is. The only explanation I have been able to come up with is lyme related....that is, in lyme, the organisms secrete an enzyme that prevents the proper metabolism of the oils, so they instead are turned into pro-inflammatory substances instead.
>
> Honestly I think the whole topic of fish oils in today's world is off base. We should be talking cod liver oil, not fish oil. The benefits and mechanisms trounce plain fish oils. My body likes a small amount of cod liver oil, but not fish oil, so that tells me something. I can't remember all the stuff I have read, but cod liver oil really has a bunch of extra goodies that go along with it, in addition to all the goodies that plain fish oil offers.
>
> I have no experience with it, but I've seen claims that Krill fish oil is better than plain fish oil. Something unique about that particular fish. Dunno. For sure though, I favor cod liver oil over common fish oils.
>
> As to either EPA or DHA, both made me much more depressed very fast. EPA was a stimulating nervous depression, DHA was a dull depression. I know you've tried some things that sent you into the deep dark real fast. Fish oil is one of those things with me. Cod liver oil, different story. I mean, it shows the amount of EPA and DHA right on the bottle, so I don't get why it's ok for me if it is from cod liver but not ok from fish. Dunno.
>
> Anyway, fish oils of various ratios and kinds are certainly tops on the list for any chronic ailment or psych issue, imo.. Trial and error to find what works best for the individual.
Posted by sigismund on August 16, 2011, at 19:01:09
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only - Thanks. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 14, 2011, at 15:28:34
> Not only that, but my friend's cat would run away from me while I took fish oil.
That is interesting.
Posted by Hyena on August 17, 2011, at 13:41:58
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only - Thanks. » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 14, 2011, at 15:28:34
just wondering what dose of EPA you were taking. do you know that some studies showed an improvement with 1 gram but a worsening of symptoms with 2 or 4 grams?
i take 1.5 grams of a highly concentrated EPA supplement spread out thoughout the day. if i take any more than this or if i take it all together at once i get no effect whatsoever. interestingly at the start i could take 3 grams and get a really good effect but had to lower the dose over time to keep it working. taking too much seems to trigger something that is counterproductive. maybe you just need to lower your dose.> Hi Bleauberry.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experiences with fish oil. It was very helpful. I tried at least three times to reintroduce fish oil. Each time, it significantly exacerbated my depression. Not only that, but my friend's cat would run away from me while I took fish oil. Now that I haven't taken fish oil in over a week, the cat and I are best buddies again. Cats are intriguing creatures.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Posted by SLS on August 17, 2011, at 20:45:21
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only - Thanks., posted by Hyena on August 17, 2011, at 13:41:58
Hi.
> just wondering what dose of EPA you were taking.
I was taking 800mg EPA and 500mg DHA.
> do you know that some studies showed an improvement with 1 gram but a worsening of symptoms with 2 or 4 grams?
Wow. I never encountered anything like that in the medical literature. What do you think is the optimal EPA/DHA ratio?
> i take 1.5 grams of a highly concentrated EPA supplement spread out thoughout the day. if i take any more than this or if i take it all together at once i get no effect whatsoever. interestingly at the start i could take 3 grams and get a really good effect but had to lower the dose over time to keep it working. taking too much seems to trigger something that is counterproductive. maybe you just need to lower your dose.
I'll keep that in mind.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
- Scott
Posted by Hyena on August 21, 2011, at 8:40:29
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only - Thanks. » Hyena, posted by SLS on August 17, 2011, at 20:45:21
ok i got that a little bit wrong. this was the study i was thinking about.
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/59/10/913
"All of the individual items on all 3 rating scales improved with the 1-g/d dosage of ethyl-eicosapentaenoate vs placebo, with strong beneficial effects on items rating depression, anxiety, sleep, lassitude, libido, and suicidality."
here the 1 gram group did better than the 2 or 4 gram groups. i see with myself that if i take too much EPA i get less of an effect. there seems to be a sweet spot.
in my case i do better without any DHA. when i first started taking fish oil i was taking almost 1:1 epa:dha on an empty stomach and that was working well. over time though i was getting less of an effect so i started taking a 7:1 epa:dha supplement with food. this gave me a much more stable mood and ive been on it ever since. DHA competes with EPA for absorption.
EPA has though made me hypersensitive to some other supplements, e.g. b6. i can only take a very tiny about of b6 when im taking EPA or else i get terrible depression and anxiety. i think it just boosts the effect of other nutrients and sometimes this can be too much for the brain. i always was slightly sensitive to b vitamins anyway.> Hi.
>
> > just wondering what dose of EPA you were taking.
>
> I was taking 800mg EPA and 500mg DHA.
>
> > do you know that some studies showed an improvement with 1 gram but a worsening of symptoms with 2 or 4 grams?
>
> Wow. I never encountered anything like that in the medical literature. What do you think is the optimal EPA/DHA ratio?
>
> > i take 1.5 grams of a highly concentrated EPA supplement spread out thoughout the day. if i take any more than this or if i take it all together at once i get no effect whatsoever. interestingly at the start i could take 3 grams and get a really good effect but had to lower the dose over time to keep it working. taking too much seems to trigger something that is counterproductive. maybe you just need to lower your dose.
>
> I'll keep that in mind.
>
> Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by morgan miller on September 19, 2011, at 15:57:43
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only - Thanks. » Hyena, posted by SLS on August 17, 2011, at 20:45:21
Scott, you gotta try different ratios, different doses, different sources and different products/brands, when it comes to finding success with marine sourced omega 3s.
The industry is mostly corrupt, brands like Carlson and Nordic Naturals are not the quality they have marketed themselves as. They also boil the oils to 400 degrees, that's part the nice little molecular distillation they say they use. It's bad news brotha.
The best fish oil supplement out there is New Chapter's Wholemega. They get their salmon oil from a pristine wild source in Alaska that is so low in mercury, it's lower than the leading brands that do molecular distillation. They also merely cold press the oil, keeping it unharmed in any way and preserving all the beneficial constituents you would get eating fresh wild Alaskan salmon. I strongly suggest trying just a regular daily dose of this stuff, no more no less. Then you can try taking a little more if you feel it might help. It's expensive stuff, but may be well worth trying.
Minami is pretty good too, but the CO2 extraction, while not denaturing the oil at all, does leave the product without all the other good stuff.
Morgan
Posted by 49er on September 24, 2011, at 15:16:09
In reply to Re: Omegabrite - Fish oil - EPA only, posted by bleauberry on August 14, 2011, at 14:07:10
I definitely don't have lyme but have found that fish oil doesn't seem to work that well for me. For awhile, Minami's EPA only fish oil seemed to be helpful but eventually, it became very mediocre.
Like you, I also seemed to develop a dull depression with DHA only fish oil.
Anyway, I found your comment on cod liver oil interesting as I just ordered a combination butter oil/cod liver oil from Amazon. I did it because I read in a book about curing dental cavities that it was very helpful with that.
Also, Chris Kresser, who runs this site, http://chriskresser.com/ and whom I greatly respect, recommended it.
Interestingly, the positive reviews on Amazon claimed it helped considerably with allergies which I also suffer from.
Stay tuned. I will try to remember to post a followup report.
49er
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