![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Hombre on October 17, 2010, at 2:10:45
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on October 17, 2010, at 1:47:24
Great advice, morgan. I really appreciate the speedy reply! I'm doing well myself, as long as I exercise regularly. It really seems to be the most powerful adjunct to the meds. It seems to allow me more leeway with supplements and herbs if I eat right and work out.
Due to a tight budget this month, she'll have to make do with the supplements I can give her, which include a multi, magnesium glycinate and citrate, coenzyme B complex, regular folic acid 5mg, vit C, regular calcium +Vit D, zinc picolinate, and Jarrow fish oil. Not too shabby. I'm glad I am well stocked at the moment.
But she will order Kira and/or Perika to see if SJW can help. She has both fatigue and anxiety, so I'm not sure whether Kira or Perika is better. That's why we'll probably try both, starting with Kira.
This will be a real test of alternative treatments. It's also imperative that she exercise regularly and work on her negative thinking habits. Will let you know how things pan out over time.
Thanks again, and I hope you are keeping your head above water for the most part.
Posted by morgan miller on October 17, 2010, at 12:18:02
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on October 17, 2010, at 2:10:45
Sounds like a good plan. I would really try to get a hold of some l methylfolate. You should be able to get it on the cheap on iherb or vitacost or maybe even Vitamin Shoppe online. Solgar and a few others sell l methylfolate, it's called metafolin.
Yeah choice between Perika, Kira, and Serofin is a tough one. I say go with Perika first. Give it at least 6 weeks or so before deciding to try one of the other 2 if you feel necessary. Definitely keep me posted, I'm interested in seeing how things work out.
I'm doing pretty good considering. I have a lot more going than just anxiety and depression, which makes it hard to treat them. Exercise was a religion for me a few years ago, now I need to find a way to heal and get back to having great workouts again. I'm skeptical as to whether they will ever be as good as they once were. It's scary to see how things can go downhill so fast.
I'm really glad exercise is helping you!
Peace bro,
Morgan
Posted by Hombre on October 19, 2010, at 22:43:39
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on October 17, 2010, at 12:18:02
Kira and Perika are on their way. So far we're holding steady with twice a day administration of a Chinese herbal formula that we cook from raw herbs.
I think I mentioned it before, but I've been heavily involved in martial arts, which in addition to putting me in contact with a lot of people that do massage, meditation, yoga, qigong, and Chinese medicine, has also led me to research a lot about alternative forms of exercise and training.
What might help heal your body would be a combination of taiji/qigong, internal herbal formulas, and external herbal liniments, soaks, plasters, and even regular moxibustion. Some herbs that help strengthen the siners/ligaments: du zhong, rehmannia, lycii fruit/goji. The herbal formulas for healing chronic injuries tended to be held close to the vest by the kung fu groups. If you can find a good one, even a bone setter, that could yield some results. Chinatown might be where you'd have to go to find a real expert.
I know for a fact that the guy at http://www.coilingdragon.com/ makes good "jow", or external liniment. He also sells internal herbal formulas. He does iron palm, which involves special qigong and herbal formulas to prevent damage and disfiguring of the hand. He can break concrete patio blocks with a light slap. It's on youtube.
The guys at this site also look pretty good;
The guy who really seems to know this area of medicine is Tom Bisio, author of "A Tooth From The Tiger's Mouth". He's in NY, I believe, but will probably list students that have studied with him on his web site:
http://www.zhenggutuina.com/instructors.php
Anyway, it's worth a try, since for some reason not many people know about this stuff (maybe since you can't get rich and it's hard to learn). But don't let the lack of marketing dollars stop you from trying something that could help.
Posted by morgan miller on October 20, 2010, at 11:56:49
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on October 19, 2010, at 22:43:39
Thanks for the info. and references! I think I will try some of the internal and external TCM treatments. I'm currently taking Gotu Kola, Turmeric, Astragalus, and Resveratrol for improved healing and repair. SJW actually may improve cartilage health through preventing IL-1 mediated cartilage destruction and increasing growth hormone levels. A friend over at Imminst told me that and I researched it and found it to be true.
One thing that is complicating my musculoskeletal issues is the possibility I may have some form of fibromyalgia. I don't experience the usual pain that comes with fibro, but I do experience a whole lot of muscle stiffness, muscle weakness, and fatigue. I seem to have days where my mind and body are under attack and spend half of the day in the fetal position on the couch. When I'm at work during these days I am distracted enough to just tough it out and keep going. I'm currently working with a neurologist to try to get to the bottom of this. I may soon be seeing a rheumatologist and a Lyme sprecialist(I don't trust my negative tests-the lyme titer comes out inconclusive and I had 2 out of the 5 bands on the Western Blot).
Are you going with Perika or Kira first? Just curious. How long are you going to give the first trial before deciding to try the other one if you feel it is necessary?
Thanks again for the TCM advice!
Morgan
Posted by Hombre on October 21, 2010, at 3:11:40
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on October 20, 2010, at 11:56:49
I like that you explore and are open to lots of different types of treatment. Hit it with everything you got, I say! Do you find some relief from the Gotu Kola, Turmeric, Astragalus, and Reservatrol? Maybe it's hard to single out the effects of one herb.
Kira or Perika first...I think I'll suggest the Perika. Seems to be more activating. There is some anxiety in the mix, but there is also a lot of fatigue, muddled thinking/negative thinking and general apathy. I think we'll just go ahead and take the whole bottle before switching, unless there is a bad reaction.
It seems like Kira acts like a mild SSRI, whereas Perika is like a mild SNRI. I don't know enough about the active constituents of SJW to really know, and it'd be a crap shoot anyway. I figure we just try and see. I hope it gets here soon...ordered some triphala-based cleanser from iHerb over a week ago and it still hasn't arrived. The SJW was ordered on Saturday, and I was hoping it'd come this weekend. iHerb is usually super fast. They are tweaking their warehouse right now, so I guess delays are expected. Anyhoo...thanks again for the advice.
Posted by morgan miller on October 21, 2010, at 10:48:58
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out? » morgan miller, posted by Hombre on October 21, 2010, at 3:11:40
I think I notice some mood benefit from those turmeric, gotu kola, astragalus, and resveratrol. I am mainly taking these for anti-aging, anti-inflammatory, and increased dna/cartilage repair, but I am aware that they can all positively affect mood. I want to eventually start taking one of Revgenetics resveratrol products as I believe they are superior to any on the market. Sometimes I'm concerned about taking too much of something like Turmeric as I do not want to boost serotonin too much. Then again, with SJW being a more mild SRI, maybe I could use the extra boost from Turmeric.
I am curious to see how your friend does on SJW, so keep me posted over the next month or so if you get a chance. Good Luck!
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on October 21, 2010, at 21:55:18
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out? » morgan miller, posted by Hombre on October 21, 2010, at 3:11:40
Hey Hombre, what are you using Triphala for? I take it for general cleansing and detoxification. I've been taking Avesta's Triphala. Do you think it is best to take on an empty stomach?
Posted by Hombre on October 21, 2010, at 22:45:44
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on October 21, 2010, at 21:55:18
Hi Morgan - I'm also going to use it for cleansing and detox. I ordered Planetary Herbals Tri-Cleanse. It also contains some natural fiber and some herbs to further strengthen digestion. I have yet to try it though, I'll probably take it at night a couple hours after dinner. If that isn't enough, I'll also take it first thing in the morning.
I get a little backed up from my antidepressant, and currently use mag citrate at night. It also helps me sleep well, but minerals can weaken digestion over time, at least according to Chinese medicine. Triphala tones and astringes the GI tract. The added herbs also warm and encourage good digestion.
It was mostly an economical choice in choosing this formula over straight Triphala. More servings per buck. If it works out, I'm going to look into ordering Triphala in bulk, maybe from Ayurvedic India, Mountain Rose Herbs, or a place like that. A pound is like $12 or something. According to Michael Tierra, the man behind Planetary Herbals, Triphala is OK to use regularly. It's supposed to be a must-have in Indian households.
I find that regular bowel movements are a good predictor of health, both physically and mentally. I also want to gently detox my system. My constitution doesn't really allow me to fast for long periods of time. My mood just goes flat and I lose energy. Going below a certain level of energy is a big no-no in my current understanding of personal energy, either through poor diet or too much exercise. It just takes too long for me to recover once my blood sugar drop below a certain point or I don't get enough protein.
How is Triphala working for you? How's the taste?
Posted by morgan miller on October 21, 2010, at 22:59:11
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on October 21, 2010, at 22:45:44
I've always been pretty regular. When I Prozac I my bowel movement was definitely affected, I'm not sure if Triphala helped with that or not. I make notice an icrease in regularity with Triphala, but I eat so many things that can positively influence digestion and regularity that it is hard to tell. I'm just hoping to be healthier as a result of taking Triphala. I've also read that Terminalia chebula may be good for longevity.
Keep me posted on your experience with the Planetary Herbals formulation, I may switch to that one as we sell it at my work.
Morgan
Posted by Hombre on November 11, 2010, at 23:33:47
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on October 21, 2010, at 22:59:11
Tri-Cleanse is OK, but I don't know if it is dependable enough for me to drop the magnesium citrate at night. I think the magnesium also helps with sleep, energy, and feeling calm. I stopped taking it for at least a week and I definitely felt some extra fatigue. The harder I exercise, the more magnesium I seem to need.
St. John's Wort, Perika brand, seems to be working. I think my friend has been taking it for a little over two weeks, at three pills a day. The real test will be in a week or so, when the PMS/PMDD rears its ugly head.
My friend still suffers from some fatigue, however, so we're using Chinese herbs to help with that. The depression definitely comes on bad when she is tired. I'm adding bupleurum and albizia to directly work on depression, prepared aconite and cinnamon twig to warm her up and boost metabolism (kidney yang).
I'll let you know in a few weeks if SJW is still working. We'll switch to Kira in a few days when the bottle of Perika runs out.
Posted by morgan miller on November 14, 2010, at 22:10:32
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on November 11, 2010, at 23:33:47
Tri-Cleanse was the triphala preparation by Planetary Herbals, right? I agree that Magnesium is good stuff. I started taking Nature's Life magnesium malate with extra malic acid. After reading about magnesium malate's ability to help detoxify heavy metals and malic acid's role in the kreb's cycle, I had to get some and try it out. So far, I think I do have a little more energy due to the malic acid. Since I may have fibromyalgia, and malic acid has been shown to help with it, I figured it was worth trying. I think I will still take magnesium glycinate at night time though.
Nice to hear SJW is helping. Are you concerned about switching over to Kira and not having the same success? I guess you will never know until you try. Kira could be better, but it may be too early to tell. I think a good 6 to 8 week trial is necessary to tell if a particular brand is going to be the one to stick with. Maybe 4 to 6 weeks, but at least 4.
Have you ever heard of DIM? Do a quick search, you may find it could be useful for your friend's PMS issues.
Morgan
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 11:41:43
In reply to morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on October 16, 2010, at 22:24:53
Hombre how are you?! well, I have not read the entire thread yet, but my immediate thought is Vitex (Planetary) When I am on Vitex most PMDD is gone, no hormone related mood swings...and without it I can be quite a treat to be around the week leading up to my cycle. B-6 in high doses really helps, but is difinitely an inherited deficiency from the female side of my family back at least 3 gens. she should take the Vitex leading up to mentruation and stop taking it during. Hope this helps!
Posted by Hombre on November 21, 2010, at 18:00:17
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out? » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 11:41:43
BetweenDreams81,
That definitely helps. This is now the week before her period, so we are doing full-on Chinese herbs + SJW.
She found out her mother had a stroke a month ago, but her family didn't tell her until now so as not to worry her. She's going back home for a month after this week. She'll be toting SJW, bags of raw herbs, and probably a big baggy of magnesium citrate powder. I really hope she doesn't tank while she's out of town.
It turns out that she didn't like Kira, so we'll stick to Perika SJW. I'd say it helps a little with mood, but when her energy gets low, the depression and anxiety really kick in. So, Chinese herbs for general energy, SJW as a supplement. It's possible that SJW is not fully working yet, or she may even need a higher dose or supplemental 5-htp. Who knows.
Will look up the Planetary formula for Vitex. Thanks again for that tip.
> Hombre how are you?! well, I have not read the entire thread yet, but my immediate thought is Vitex (Planetary) When I am on Vitex most PMDD is gone, no hormone related mood swings...and without it I can be quite a treat to be around the week leading up to my cycle. B-6 in high doses really helps, but is difinitely an inherited deficiency from the female side of my family back at least 3 gens. she should take the Vitex leading up to mentruation and stop taking it during. Hope this helps!
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 18:56:42
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on November 21, 2010, at 18:00:17
Oh my, poor dear! So sorry to hear about her mother...I cannot imagine! She is lucky to have you helping her out...truly.
If she is having anxiety and depression...I have to say, the thing I notice most when taking the Lithium orotate is that my anxiety is (dare I say it)...gone...now, I still have some swings into depression, but the constant worry and cyclic thinking that seems to keep me under the covers is basically resolved. So the depression is more like a lack of energy/motivation, hyper/hyposomnia (this can be very inconsistent), and overall blah mood rather than the constant negative ramblings in my head. So, perhaps LiOr would help too??
I still keep meaning to order/find the Chinese formula you take...I am really interested in taking it, and recently I keep getting this nagging feeling that I need to do a liver cleanse or take some form of liver support. Don't ask me why...just a hunch!
The other thing I recently (past 2-3 weeks) added is a homeopathic dropper formula by Newton labs www.newtonlabs.net (think it's called Mood & blues) I was very skeptical that it would do anything, but some people swear by homeopathic formulas so I decided to give it a go. I just was feeling blah, as I often do, with very little motivation to do much let alone think about socializing, happy was not really an emotion I had felt in some time. I took 6 drops every 15 min for about 4 hours...I noticed an interesting sensation within 45 min...like a fog being lifted out of my brain. As in, phsycally "felt" something...like a tingling feeling...I know that probably sounds nuts, but then I was just smiling and so comfortable in my skin. I don't think it has effected my motivation/energy issues, but I am definitely not nearly as blah as I was before taking it.
Give my best to your friend, I hope things look on the upside soon.
Posted by Hombre on November 21, 2010, at 23:31:44
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out? » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 21, 2010, at 18:56:42
I will also look into the lithium. She has expressed that she can get a little too excited, but it only happens a few days per month, probably right after her period is done. She does have a lot of anxiety, so maybe something like lithium could help.
If I am reading correctly, it seems like anxiety, worry, lack of motivation, depression and sleep problems are your main symptoms.
Do you feel tired after you eat? Does your diet seem to affect your energy and mood?
The thing with anxiety, at least from my experience, is that it is both physical and psychological. My mind can really psyche me out, but if I push past the initial uneasiness I almost always feel better having done whatever it is I wanted/needed to get done. Getting into the habit of confronting my fears is probably what I need to do more than anything.
Anyway, I've rediscovered that I need to boost my kidneys according to Chinese medical theory. Whether it's my meds or my constitution, I need to take herbs that tonify and nourish the kidneys, which helps a lot with motivation and energy. These herbs tend to help basic kidney function, like draining dampness/water, but they also seem to help at a hormonal level.
The trick is figuring out if your sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous system tends to dominate. If it's the former, you'll tend to be hyper-aroused and hyper-metabolic, running "hot" and feeling keyed up and tired at the same time. If it's the latter, you'll tend to run "cold", be apathetic, have low motivation, low libido, and generally feel kind of spacey or too chilled out. These are generalizations, of course, but that's the beauty of Chinese medicine, at least at the basic level - you can trust your feelings and use them to guide you.
So, for sympathetic dominance, I'd suggest Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, 6 flavor rehmannia pills. For parasympathetic dominance, Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan, Golden Cabinet Kidney Pills. The two formulas are almost the same, but the latter adds two heating herbs that stimulate metabolism and increases your mojo. They both nourish kidney yin and liver yin, but the warming herbs nourish kidney yang.
In fact, I'm taking both in various ratios according to how I feel, and that seems to work. I got the idea of taking both from a book on Chinese herbs.
For overall fatigue, tiredness after eating, abdominal bloating, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan is a tonic formula par excellence. It helps with digestion, and raises your energy up, as in if you feel like it's hard to stand up straight, this formula somehow supplements that energy. It also has a couple of herbs that detox and smooth out liver energy. It is a very famous and common formula.
One thing I've learned is that dosage is key. The dosage on most bottles of "teapills", the little black pills that usually come in bottles of 200, tend to be on the low end. I weigh about 165lbs, but I feel like I do better taking 1.5x the standard dose, or 12 pills at a time, 3x a day (they are small pills). Just keep in mind that you can play with the dosage a little, up or down, within reason. Sometimes you want to take a little more at first to get an effect sooner, then back off to a maintenance dosage once you've gotten out of the hole. Just don't give up on the herbs until you've adjusted the dosage and given them some time to work. Tonic herb therapy can take a long time to undo what surely took a while to happen in the first place.
I hope that helps.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 22, 2010, at 1:35:33
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out? » BetweenDreams81, posted by Hombre on November 21, 2010, at 23:31:44
See responses below your text (*)
If I am reading correctly, it seems like anxiety, worry, lack of motivation, depression and sleep problems are your main symptoms.
* anxiety without the lithium is definitely an issue, but that is well under control
* worry is mostly situational, but it does play a part in the adding of stressors which trigger depression or anxiety or both. Which then can tailspin into hypomania where I obsess and become extremely irritable
* lack of motivation and depression, overall 'blah' mood, THAT hits the nail on the head...at least this seems to be the most dominant of my moods as of late, and the better part of the past 3 months (I'm not really in a depression, just very "bored" is the best way I can describe it)
* lack of sleep never struck me as an issue until I realized one day that I could not recall the last time in 2-3 years when I have gone to bed regularly at a "decent" hour (ex: it is currently 1:45 AM lol, and this is very typical)
Do you feel tired after you eat? Does your diet seem to affect your energy and mood?
* hmmm, tired? If I eat heavy foods, yes. Otherwise, I don't really notice much difference in energy level, niether a lack nor a gain.
* When I eat sushi I feel great...clean fresh energy, and mentall sharper as well. I really wish the fish oil caps did the same thing for me! I may need to take a less processed form though? Currently taking 4 Barlean's Fish Oil caps (orange flavor), total: 4000mg, 1440mg EPA, 960mg DHA
* I do notice certain foods adversely affecting me, particularly dairy, heavy starches and caffeine. Interestingly enough, when I was curious about the blood type diet (I'm A-), it suggested eating mostly vegetables and fruits, plant based diet and to limit animal protein intake, even fish
The thing with anxiety, at least from my experience, is that it is both physical and psychological. My mind can really psyche me out, but if I push past the initial uneasiness I almost always feel better having done whatever it is I wanted/needed to get done. Getting into the habit of confronting my fears is probably what I need to do more than anything.* The only time I feel the anxiety creep in at the moment is when I have to play the "salesperson" and my business requires a bit of that to get going...and I agree 100%, that the initial fear is usually put to rest once it is confronted and defeated...it's basically just making yourself grow and jump outside the box, but unless that happens the fear rules and can even develop into a phobia if not kept in check IMO. I do need to work on this a bit more myself. I'll be forced to do it anyway 6 weeks from now when I return to Florida for my busiest season! eeps!
Anyway, I've rediscovered that I need to boost my kidneys according to Chinese medical theory. Whether it's my meds or my constitution, I need to take herbs that tonify and nourish the kidneys, which helps a lot with motivation and energy. These herbs tend to help basic kidney function, like draining dampness/water, but they also seem to help at a hormonal level.
The trick is figuring out if your sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous system tends to dominate. If it's the former, you'll tend to be hyper-aroused and hyper-metabolic, running "hot" and feeling keyed up and tired at the same time. If it's the latter, you'll tend to run "cold", be apathetic, have low motivation, low libido, and generally feel kind of spacey or too chilled out. These are generalizations, of course, but that's the beauty of Chinese medicine, at least at the basic level - you can trust your feelings and use them to guide you.
* I feel like you just described me to a T! I absolutely fall into the "parasympathetic" mold!
So, for sympathetic dominance, I'd suggest Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, 6 flavor rehmannia pills. For parasympathetic dominance, Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan, Golden Cabinet Kidney Pills. The two formulas are almost the same, but the latter adds two heating herbs that stimulate metabolism and increases your mojo. They both nourish kidney yin and liver yin, but the warming herbs nourish kidney yang.
In fact, I'm taking both in various ratios according to how I feel, and that seems to work. I got the idea of taking both from a book on Chinese herbs.
For overall fatigue, tiredness after eating, abdominal bloating, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan is a tonic formula par excellence. It helps with digestion, and raises your energy up, as in if you feel like it's hard to stand up straight, this formula somehow supplements that energy. It also has a couple of herbs that detox and smooth out liver energy. It is a very famous and common formula.
* I like the idea of the Golden Cabinet Kidney Pills...Can it be taken simultaneously with the Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan? This would take care of tonifying the liver, which for what ever reason, I keep coming back to. I feel like there is a bit of stagnant energy...which represents dampness, is that right? or am I confusing it with something else? and would that also relate back to spleen? Liver/spleen are a yin/yang pair, so tonifying the liver would help the spleen as well...did I get that right?
One thing I've learned is that dosage is key. The dosage on most bottles of "teapills", the little black pills that usually come in bottles of 200, tend to be on the low end. I weigh about 165lbs, but I feel like I do better taking 1.5x the standard dose, or 12 pills at a time, 3x a day (they are small pills). Just keep in mind that you can play with the dosage a little, up or down, within reason. Sometimes you want to take a little more at first to get an effect sooner, then back off to a maintenance dosage once you've gotten out of the hole. Just don't give up on the herbs until you've adjusted the dosage and given them some time to work. Tonic herb therapy can take a long time to undo what surely took a while to happen in the first place.
* Well noted! How long do you give something a try before changing it up? Instinct says to stick with herbals for at least 6 weeks to get them well established in the system. Do you ever take them more often than 3x per day to get started? Say 5x/day for the first 3-4 days? Or, just more tea pills and just 3x/day?
I hope that helps.
* Yes! Thank you! You are insightful as always, and thoughtful beyond measure for being so thorough! I really appreciate it!
Posted by Hombre on November 22, 2010, at 20:51:32
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out? » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 22, 2010, at 1:35:33
> * anxiety without the lithium is definitely an issue, but that is well under control
That's really interesting and promising. I wonder if anyone else gets this benefit from lithium orotate. Thanks for giving me something to look into more thoroughly.
> * worry is mostly situational, but it does play a part in the adding of stressors which trigger depression or anxiety or both. Which then can tailspin into hypomania where I obsess and become extremely irritableMy depression is like that. Very similar symptoms. I take Seroquel for the anxiety and insomnia, characterized by worrying spinning out of control and an inability to focus on one thing. My mind keeps jumping around and can't settle on one topic. The web is dangerous when I'm in this condition due to the non-linear format.
If I could do it again, I'd definitely treat Spleen and Kidneys with herbs first, both of which may lead to obsessive thoughts, worries, ruminating (esp. on the past), anxiety, fear, lack of ability to take action.
> * lack of motivation and depression, overall 'blah' mood, THAT hits the nail on the head...at least this seems to be the most dominant of my moods as of late, and the better part of the past 3 months (I'm not really in a depression, just very "bored" is the best way I can describe it)
Yeah, apathy and boredom can be there without sad/depressed mood. It's hard to separate them, but they are somewhat distinct. I still get this from time to time, and treating the Kidneys is the best method I've tried so far. Even single-herb adaptogens aren't specific enough to target this symptom cluster.
> * lack of sleep never struck me as an issue until I realized one day that I could not recall the last time in 2-3 years when I have gone to bed regularly at a "decent" hour (ex: it is currently 1:45 AM lol, and this is very typical)
I had this sort of insomnia for over a decade. I thought I'd never get to bed early or before 1or 2am. I think my meds do a good job of handling this, so I wont complain.
I once had my pulse taken by a CM doc in Asia and he asked me if I stayed up late. He was right, and he could tell because my liver was showing some symptoms. 11pm-1am is the time when the they say the qi is in the liver. This is an important time because this is when your liver does the majority of its detox.
I can't say for sure whether or not this is true, but I can say the quality of sleep is much better if I can fall asleep before 11. In fact, I shoot for this every night by taking my meds at 9pm. I feel more refreshed in the morning this way.
> Do you feel tired after you eat? Does your diet seem to affect your energy and mood?
>
> * hmmm, tired? If I eat heavy foods, yes. Otherwise, I don't really notice much difference in energy level, niether a lack nor a gain.
>
> * When I eat sushi I feel great...clean fresh energy, and mentall sharper as well. I really wish the fish oil caps did the same thing for me! I may need to take a less processed form though? Currently taking 4 Barlean's Fish Oil caps (orange flavor), total: 4000mg, 1440mg EPA, 960mg DHA
>
> * I do notice certain foods adversely affecting me, particularly dairy, heavy starches and caffeine. Interestingly enough, when I was curious about the blood type diet (I'm A-), it suggested eating mostly vegetables and fruits, plant based diet and to limit animal protein intake, even fishI think this *may* mean that your Spleen is not too weak. Heavy, sticky foods that don't digest will cause stagnation, heat, and a heavy, lazy/tired feeling.
For me, I find I have to eat lots of protein in order to feel well. There are sound nutritional reasons for this, primarily the fact that I exercise a lot, and amino acids are the building blocks of most of your hormones and enzymes. Fat, too.
In fact, I do well on a diet of meat, fish, and some veggies with a smaller amount of complex carbs. I only eat brown+red rice and wholewheat bread. I'm sure you know about this stuff, just thinking out loud. Diet is so crucial, because without the basic physical energy, emotional energy and mental energy cannot be supported.
According to Chinese medicine and also energy management theories from Western sources, emotional, mental and even spiritual energy are just different states or frequencies of energy. Energy can transform from gross/material to more refined states of energy, and back again. That's why the condition of the body can never be excluded when considering mental disorders, but at the same time, your mind and spirit can affect your health as well.
The highest form of medicine (so they say) is dealing directly with the spirit, or shen. Mental disorders are ultimately disorders of the shen/spirit, housed in the Heart. Unfortunately, this aspect of healing is slowly being eliminated, or worse, demonized as archaic and unscientific. Whatever. It's only in the past decade that they've discovered that the brain can regrow. There are obviously tons of things that science has yet to understand, if it ever will.
> The thing with anxiety, at least from my experience, is that it is both physical and psychological. My mind can really psyche me out, but if I push past the initial uneasiness I almost always feel better having done whatever it is I wanted/needed to get done. Getting into the habit of confronting my fears is probably what I need to do more than anything.
>
> * The only time I feel the anxiety creep in at the moment is when I have to play the "salesperson" and my business requires a bit of that to get going...and I agree 100%, that the initial fear is usually put to rest once it is confronted and defeated...it's basically just making yourself grow and jump outside the box, but unless that happens the fear rules and can even develop into a phobia if not kept in check IMO. I do need to work on this a bit more myself. I'll be forced to do it anyway 6 weeks from now when I return to Florida for my busiest season! eeps!That gives you time to try some new things, and I think there is every reason to expect and shoot for a more stable, comfortable base from which to work from. I just want to stress that this is possible, eventually. I really hope you will feel better about your busy season so you can continue to be successful in your business. I sort of envy where you're at in your career :)
> * I feel like you just described me to a T! I absolutely fall into the "parasympathetic" mold!
> * I like the idea of the Golden Cabinet Kidney Pills...Can it be taken simultaneously with the Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan? This would take care of tonifying the liver, which for what ever reason, I keep coming back to. I feel like there is a bit of stagnant energy...which represents dampness, is that right? or am I confusing it with something else? and would that also relate back to spleen? Liver/spleen are a yin/yang pair, so tonifying the liver would help the spleen as well...did I get that right?
The two formulas can be taken together. The only thing to watch out for is too much heat from the Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. If you feel too stimulated, or hot and thirsty, switch to Liu Wei Di Huang Wan. I don't think BZYQW causes much heat. I think it might have a few herbs to clear heat.
BZYQW works mostly on the "upper burner", a sort of made-up "organ" that refers to metabolic function in the upper third of the body. JGSQW works on the lower burner. You'll know it's working when you start to feel a comfortable, warm sensation in your lower abdomen or lumbar area. This area is key for your overall energy. If it gets too "cold", you get that apathy and other symptoms, like weakness in the lower back and joints in the legs. When the "fire" is just right, you feel comfortable, warm, and have more willpower. I know it sounds strange, but they specifically associate willpower with the kidneys. This will also affect memory.
Liver stagnation is almost always involved with mental disorders. When a person gets upset or frustrated, and cannot express this constructively, liver qi stagnation will occur. One way to express this is to say that the liver is involved in detoxing and neutralizing hormones. If the liver is not functioning optimally, stress hormones (glucocorticoids) and sex hormones (estrogen, ...) may not be broken down efficiently, hence liver stagnation can lead to irritability, anger, and a full/stuffy sensation in the ribs/chest area, or even a lump in the throat.
When the liver becomes stagnant, heat can build up. The stomach and spleen will often be affected, messing up digestion and weakening these organs' ability to transform food into blood and energy, and to transform and transport "fluids", leading to dampness, which will sort of muck up the works, causing dullness, apathy, etc.
I know it all sounds too simple, but the analogies are consistent with the treatments, and if the treatments didn't work, the whole model would have collapsed and never have survived this long. Herbs are classified in basic ways, according to what they do in the body. Their actions are well known, and the formulas have been time-tested to be effective, and to take advantage of natural synergies between herbs. I wish we could only say the same for meds and med combos. Mixing herbs is a fine art, very difficult. Harder than gourmet cooking. Mixing meds is...primitive, at best.
BZYQW tonifies the Spleen and assist the liver in upholding the "upright qi", basically that upbearing, structural energy I talked about. It's weird, but twice I've taken the formula and noticed that I felt like standing up really straight, which is hard for someone who has slouched all his life and still struggles to correct that. It's amazing how one's energy and mood are affected when the heart and lungs have ample room to function, and the blood vessels in the neck are not kinked from muscle tension and bad posture. Your mileage may vary, of course.> * Well noted! How long do you give something a try before changing it up? Instinct says to stick with herbals for at least 6 weeks to get them well established in the system. Do you ever take them more often than 3x per day to get started? Say 5x/day for the first 3-4 days? Or, just more tea pills and just 3x/day?
It's hard to say, because the longer you've been ill/had these negative patterns, the longer it'll take to nudge things back to a balanced state. Lifestyle is obviously a huge factor. Maybe consider cutting back on "cold" foods, such as raw fruits and veggies, ice cream, ice water, stuff like that. They force your body to use energy to digest and warm up. You need every ounce of energy to maintain your mood.
That said, maybe a month or longer to feel a significant change. I don't know if you'd want to overdo the herbs too much, maybe up to 1.5 - 2x MAX per dose. Three times a day is probably the max. Taking tonic herbs thirty minutes before meals will help too. On an empty stomach is best, with warm water or broth.
> * Yes! Thank you! You are insightful as always, and thoughtful beyond measure for being so thorough! I really appreciate it!
It's my pleasure. And thanks for your advice and suggestions too. I hope I didn't ramble too much, but it helps me to put these ideas into words, because my experience is changing all the time as I continue to use and experiment with herbs. Nothing I say is more than the opinion of a hobbyist, so keep that in mind...
Posted by morgan miller on November 22, 2010, at 21:31:08
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on November 22, 2010, at 20:51:32
Lithium orotate and aspartate have been used and marketed as a treatment for PMMD.
Posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 22, 2010, at 23:47:25
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on November 22, 2010, at 20:51:32
OK, I hope this doesn't get too confusing! But I find it takes me MUCH less time to respond back if I go line by line, and I stay better on topic.
(> > * worry is mostly situational, but it does play a part in the adding of stressors which trigger depression or anxiety or both. Which then can tailspin into hypomania where I obsess and become extremely irritable
>
> My depression is like that. Very similar symptoms. I take Seroquel for the anxiety and insomnia, characterized by worrying spinning out of control and an inability to focus on one thing. My mind keeps jumping around and can't settle on one topic. The web is dangerous when I'm in this condition due to the non-linear format.)YES! When you have described your experiences in previous posts i felt that our symptoms were very similar, which is part of the reason why I am so interested in what you take, how you take it, and your thoughts behind it. well, that and that I am very much interested in TCM and most things of this nature which focus on the wholeness of "being." I also think internet is probably the thing I am having the toughest time with right now. it sucks me in and before I realize it I am up til 5 AM (like last night)...probably hypomanic right now. I was up 4 hours later at 9 AM, and I have not felt the least bit tired....BUT that said, I also was completely and utterly useless and unable to get motivated to do the things I could have done to make tomorrow easier, and I now will likely be up until 2 AM to get those things done...further current example, I just got back from the store 30 min ago. I was at the store to get what I needed to make up a couple of batches of holiday cookies when I am leaving late morning to fly out to visit family...AND I still have vacuuming and laundry to do, and a kitchen to clean up. LOL seriously! I have decided not to make the cookies thank goodness, but I think you get my point! lol
(> If I could do it again, I'd definitely treat Spleen and Kidneys with herbs first, both of which may lead to obsessive thoughts, worries, ruminating (esp. on the past), anxiety, fear, lack of ability to take action.
>
> > * lack of motivation and depression, overall 'blah' mood, THAT hits the nail on the head...at least this seems to be the most dominant of my moods as of late, and the better part of the past 3 months (I'm not really in a depression, just very "bored" is the best way I can describe it)
>
> Yeah, apathy and boredom can be there without sad/depressed mood. It's hard to separate them, but they are somewhat distinct. I still get this from time to time, and treating the Kidneys is the best method I've tried so far. Even single-herb adaptogens aren't specific enough to target this symptom cluster.
>
> > * lack of sleep never struck me as an issue until I realized one day that I could not recall the last time in 2-3 years when I have gone to bed regularly at a "decent" hour (ex: it is currently 1:45 AM lol, and this is very typical)
>
> I had this sort of insomnia for over a decade. I thought I'd never get to bed early or before 1or 2am. I think my meds do a good job of handling this, so I wont complain.
>
> I once had my pulse taken by a CM doc in Asia and he asked me if I stayed up late. He was right, and he could tell because my liver was showing some symptoms. 11pm-1am is the time when the they say the qi is in the liver. This is an important time because this is when your liver does the majority of its detox.
>
> I can't say for sure whether or not this is true, but I can say the quality of sleep is much better if I can fall asleep before 11. In fact, I shoot for this every night by taking my meds at 9pm. I feel more refreshed in the morning this way.
I HOPE I can get to that point soon! Getting to bed late I think really does put a lot of symptoms into motion, or can drive them into hyper-mode making the swings more extreme. And it messes up my natural internal clock. I used to always be a morning person when I was a kid, and now I'm quite obviously having a hard time getting up before 8 AM so I have missed about 2 hours that could have been very productive.
>
> > Do you feel tired after you eat? Does your diet seem to affect your energy and mood?
> >
> > * hmmm, tired? If I eat heavy foods, yes. Otherwise, I don't really notice much difference in energy level, niether a lack nor a gain.
> >
> > * When I eat sushi I feel great...clean fresh energy, and mentall sharper as well. I really wish the fish oil caps did the same thing for me! I may need to take a less processed form though? Currently taking 4 Barlean's Fish Oil caps (orange flavor), total: 4000mg, 1440mg EPA, 960mg DHA
> >
> > * I do notice certain foods adversely affecting me, particularly dairy, heavy starches and caffeine. Interestingly enough, when I was curious about the blood type diet (I'm A-), it suggested eating mostly vegetables and fruits, plant based diet and to limit animal protein intake, even fish
>
> I think this *may* mean that your Spleen is not too weak. Heavy, sticky foods that don't digest will cause stagnation, heat, and a heavy, lazy/tired feeling.
>
> For me, I find I have to eat lots of protein in order to feel well. There are sound nutritional reasons for this, primarily the fact that I exercise a lot, and amino acids are the building blocks of most of your hormones and enzymes. Fat, too.
>
> In fact, I do well on a diet of meat, fish, and some veggies with a smaller amount of complex carbs. I only eat brown+red rice and wholewheat bread. I'm sure you know about this stuff, just thinking out loud. Diet is so crucial, because without the basic physical energy, emotional energy and mental energy cannot be supported.I do NEED to get more aerobically fit. I am in good weight (very lucky to have inherited my Dad's metabolism!), but as far as fitness...I'm a dud and really need to work on it.
>
> According to Chinese medicine and also energy management theories from Western sources, emotional, mental and even spiritual energy are just different states or frequencies of energy. Energy can transform from gross/material to more refined states of energy, and back again. That's why the condition of the body can never be excluded when considering mental disorders, but at the same time, your mind and spirit can affect your health as well.
>
> The highest form of medicine (so they say) is dealing directly with the spirit, or shen. Mental disorders are ultimately disorders of the shen/spirit, housed in the Heart. Unfortunately, this aspect of healing is slowly being eliminated, or worse, demonized as archaic and unscientific. Whatever. It's only in the past decade that they've discovered that the brain can regrow. There are obviously tons of things that science has yet to understand, if it ever will.
YES! 100% agree. I see it all the time in the horses...the vets and trainers all focus on the physical symptom so much that the whole picture is lost. For instance, a horse who has ulcers ends up physically compromised its back and hind limbs and often becomes unwilling to move forward and overall just sour and unhappy. You see it in their eyes and the coat is often dull, and they also hold their abdomen close to their core. The vet will treat the joints, temporarily the back by injecting it on either side of the spine with something very similar to lidocaine (the longisimus dorsi ends up feeling like a plank of wood) and they'll treat the ulcers with omeprazole (which IMO just exacerbates the acid/alkaline balancee). BUT What started the ulcers in the first place? The food and supplements you are feeding the horse along with the fact that these show animals are almost never getting free access to fresh green grass. OK off my soap box!!! SORRY!! I could go on foreva on this topic. ;o) It is getting better, more open like it is in human medicine, but often these theories transfer quite well to horses. They are very very sensitive creatures.
>
> > The thing with anxiety, at least from my experience, is that it is both physical and psychological. My mind can really psyche me out, but if I push past the initial uneasiness I almost always feel better having done whatever it is I wanted/needed to get done. Getting into the habit of confronting my fears is probably what I need to do more than anything.
> >
> > * The only time I feel the anxiety creep in at the moment is when I have to play the "salesperson" and my business requires a bit of that to get going...and I agree 100%, that the initial fear is usually put to rest once it is confronted and defeated...it's basically just making yourself grow and jump outside the box, but unless that happens the fear rules and can even develop into a phobia if not kept in check IMO. I do need to work on this a bit more myself. I'll be forced to do it anyway 6 weeks from now when I return to Florida for my busiest season! eeps!
>
> That gives you time to try some new things, and I think there is every reason to expect and shoot for a more stable, comfortable base from which to work from. I just want to stress that this is possible, eventually. I really hope you will feel better about your busy season so you can continue to be successful in your business. I sort of envy where you're at in your career :)I hope so too! Thanks for the kudos...ahh, the front one has to uphold to make everything look like sunshine and roses! lol It is stressful for me to think about sometimes (ah! now that is where some anxiety would come in if I decideed not to take LiOr)...well, if I dwell on it too long anyway. The driving force for my posting here asking questions and trying to figure this out though, is because I lost 95% of my client base last season! I was under the covers for 3-4 months with a debilitating depression followed by a crazy, unconcious 2 month long manic episode. I was really lucky that I had met someone a few months prior to the episode of depression who happens to be bipolar. So here, a person I had only know a few months turned out to be the only person I could turn to and be 100% honest with...more so than any friends I had known for 8+ years, even family for that matter. He helped pull me out of my hole, and he gave me something to think about. I am forever grateful to him for this. BUT, I have a lot of work to do and a lot of ground to regain...and I am on the brink of hitting rock bottom. If I do, I lose everything I have worked for including the 2 horses I have bred and am currently raising (they are just 15 months old right now). I am finally down to 3 horses now from 8 this time last year...thank goodness, so that is a lot less financial pressure. This doomsday all said though, I can tell you that I am already in a better mental position right now than I was this time last year. And I attribute this to be conciously aware, acknowledging that I have to monitor myself a bit, AND realizing that I have a few outlets and support...and I am absolutely without a doubt including this sounding board in this rant of appreciation. It is excruciating when you feel that you have no one to go to for support, and I feel relieved to know that I DO have support and continue to build this network so that I can get back on my feet again, regain confidence, and be successful once again...hopefully even more so. In the long run, I believe I will be better for having to take this journey. K, off my box now for a min.
>
> > * I feel like you just described me to a T! I absolutely fall into the "parasympathetic" mold!
>
> > * I like the idea of the Golden Cabinet Kidney Pills...Can it be taken simultaneously with the Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan? This would take care of tonifying the liver, which for what ever reason, I keep coming back to. I feel like there is a bit of stagnant energy...which represents dampness, is that right? or am I confusing it with something else? and would that also relate back to spleen? Liver/spleen are a yin/yang pair, so tonifying the liver would help the spleen as well...did I get that right?
>
> The two formulas can be taken together. The only thing to watch out for is too much heat from the Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. If you feel too stimulated, or hot and thirsty, switch to Liu Wei Di Huang Wan. I don't think BZYQW causes much heat. I think it might have a few herbs to clear heat.
>
> BZYQW works mostly on the "upper burner", a sort of made-up "organ" that refers to metabolic function in the upper third of the body. JGSQW works on the lower burner. You'll know it's working when you start to feel a comfortable, warm sensation in your lower abdomen or lumbar area. This area is key for your overall energy. If it gets too "cold", you get that apathy and other symptoms, like weakness in the lower back and joints in the legs. When the "fire" is just right, you feel comfortable, warm, and have more willpower. I know it sounds strange, but they specifically associate willpower with the kidneys. This will also affect memory.
>
> Liver stagnation is almost always involved with mental disorders. When a person gets upset or frustrated, and cannot express this constructively, liver qi stagnation will occur. One way to express this is to say that the liver is involved in detoxing and neutralizing hormones. If the liver is not functioning optimally, stress hormones (glucocorticoids) and sex hormones (estrogen, ...) may not be broken down efficiently, hence liver stagnation can lead to irritability, anger, and a full/stuffy sensation in the ribs/chest area, or even a lump in the throat.
>
> When the liver becomes stagnant, heat can build up. The stomach and spleen will often be affected, messing up digestion and weakening these organs' ability to transform food into blood and energy, and to transform and transport "fluids", leading to dampness, which will sort of muck up the works, causing dullness, apathy, etc.
>
> I know it all sounds too simple, but the analogies are consistent with the treatments, and if the treatments didn't work, the whole model would have collapsed and never have survived this long. Herbs are classified in basic ways, according to what they do in the body. Their actions are well known, and the formulas have been time-tested to be effective, and to take advantage of natural synergies between herbs. I wish we could only say the same for meds and med combos. Mixing herbs is a fine art, very difficult. Harder than gourmet cooking. Mixing meds is...primitive, at best.
>
> BZYQW tonifies the Spleen and assist the liver in upholding the "upright qi", basically that upbearing, structural energy I talked about. It's weird, but twice I've taken the formula and noticed that I felt like standing up really straight, which is hard for someone who has slouched all his life and still struggles to correct that. It's amazing how one's energy and mood are affected when the heart and lungs have ample room to function, and the blood vessels in the neck are not kinked from muscle tension and bad posture. Your mileage may vary, of course.
>
> > * Well noted! How long do you give something a try before changing it up? Instinct says to stick with herbals for at least 6 weeks to get them well established in the system. Do you ever take them more often than 3x per day to get started? Say 5x/day for the first 3-4 days? Or, just more tea pills and just 3x/day?
>
> It's hard to say, because the longer you've been ill/had these negative patterns, the longer it'll take to nudge things back to a balanced state. Lifestyle is obviously a huge factor. Maybe consider cutting back on "cold" foods, such as raw fruits and veggies, ice cream, ice water, stuff like that. They force your body to use energy to digest and warm up. You need every ounce of energy to maintain your mood.
>
> That said, maybe a month or longer to feel a significant change. I don't know if you'd want to overdo the herbs too much, maybe up to 1.5 - 2x MAX per dose. Three times a day is probably the max. Taking tonic herbs thirty minutes before meals will help too. On an empty stomach is best, with warm water or broth.
>
> > * Yes! Thank you! You are insightful as always, and thoughtful beyond measure for being so thorough! I really appreciate it!
>
> It's my pleasure. And thanks for your advice and suggestions too. I hope I didn't ramble too much, but it helps me to put these ideas into words, because my experience is changing all the time as I continue to use and experiment with herbs. Nothing I say is more than the opinion of a hobbyist, so keep that in mind...I like your ramblings, so ramble anytime you wish ;o) Hobbyist or not, this all makes a lot of sense to me, more sense to me than the Western med approach to most things. You explain it well! I think you would be great to make this your career :0) it seems like you are happy and passionate about it with a genuine interest in helping others. Perhaps setting up a resource website for TCM with several forums and perhaps specifically honing in on mental 'disorders' (if I gave myself another 45 min to think on it I'd have a whole business plan written up for you...oh yes, I am def hypomanic right now! lol it's funny to me that I haven't noticed it until actually reaponding and seeing it in front of me, good practice I guess for fine-tuning my corresponding reactions to it) sorry! Too funny, I am the one with ramblings, now, my mind is a bit scattered. I'll decipher it later in a few days so that it makes better sense. Thanks again, I always look forward to your responses. Hope you are having a good one! Wish me luck on all of the packing up and getting ready that I can make my flight in time! lol
Posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 2:21:26
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on November 22, 2010, at 21:31:08
> Lithium orotate and aspartate have been used and marketed as a treatment for PMMD.
Which just goes to show that I have a lot more research to do. Thanks for helping me to fill in some of the gaps. I get tired of trying to sort through all the stuff out there.
Posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 2:31:08
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out? » Hombre, posted by BetweenDreams81 on November 22, 2010, at 23:47:25
I think you'll be fine. Your writing is coherent, and I think you got the message loud and clear when you crashed last year. It took me several crashes to really set my priorities straight. I lost everything more than once, including the support of friends and family, my education, money, dignity, etc. I plan to make the current comeback the one that sticks.
I'd love to hear more about horses and health, if you aren't already blogging about it somewhere. I think making the parallels with animals, especially ones so close to people as horses, could really shed some light on how the principles of nature apply to all living things.
Posted by morgan miller on November 23, 2010, at 12:13:41
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 2:21:26
> > Lithium orotate and aspartate have been used and marketed as a treatment for PMMD.
>
> Which just goes to show that I have a lot more research to do. Thanks for helping me to fill in some of the gaps. I get tired of trying to sort through all the stuff out there.There is evidence that lithium has helped but I don't think there is the clinical evidence that would lead a psychiatrist to prescribe it for PMMD. And a doctor surely won't be prescribing lithium orotate or aspartate for anything. I totally forgot about these forms of lithium.
One thing to keep in mind is lithium orotate really is not much different than lithium carbonate. We don't know yet if there is any real advantage to using lithium orotate over lithium carbonate. There is no definitive research telling us that lithium orotate is more bioavailable than lithium carbonate. It does appear that lithium orotate and lithium carbonate may have slightly different effects with some individuals. To figure this out of course would require personal experimentation. It seems that the main advantage to using lithium orotate right now is that you don't need a prescription and can purchase it off the internet or possibly at your local Vitamin Shoppe or other vitamin store.
Posted by morgan miller on November 23, 2010, at 12:20:01
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on November 23, 2010, at 12:13:41
It is interesting that when I was taking one 125 mg capsule of lithium orotate a day, lithium did not even show up in my system when I had my blood levels tested.
Posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 17:53:55
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by morgan miller on November 23, 2010, at 12:20:01
Did you feel any effects from the lithium orotate even though it did not show up on the blood tests?
I'm up in the air about it. For some people, it really seems to help, but for others, nothing.
I tried lithium when I first started going with a bipolar diagnosis, and at 800mg or so I got a tremor. I went back down to 400mg, but I felt really blunted and somewhat depressed. I realized that it was making me depressed and stopped. I also got pimples on my forearms and put on weight. Those side effects went away after I stopped taking it.
I think I'll buy a bottle of lithium orotate and try it on myself before recommending it to my friend. She'll be out of town for a month, so there's nothing I can do in the meantime. Shipments from the US seem to be taking longer and longer these days, even from iherb.
Thanks again for the recommendation and advice. It's easy to ignore an option for a long time, then when you pay attention to it it suddenly becomes a viable alternative and a source of hope.
Posted by morgan miller on November 23, 2010, at 18:28:58
In reply to Re: morgan: How is St. John's Wort Working Out?, posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 17:53:55
I definitely noticed feeling a bit more stable and a bit less depressed on lithium orotate. I even tried a nasal spray version by HBC Protocals. It's an interesting product, check it out:
If you order lithium orotate, a fairly respectable member of Imminst believes that one of the best or the best sources may be Vitamin Research Products.
I think her mood may continue to improve with time on Perika. What dose is she taking? If she is taking the lowest dose, maybe sticking with that for another few weeks is a good idea before considering raising it. I've read that 300 mg may be more effective than 600 or 900 for many. Then again everyone is different. I've also read of people doing better on 1200 mg. That would get a bit expensive for some. Hopefully time is all she needs on the current dose to see an increased improvement of symptoms.
I'm curious to see what you think of lithium orotate if you try it.
This is the end of the thread.
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