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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2009, at 14:20:39
I'm using this primarily for insomnia, anxiety, depression. It feels like crap if I take any during the day. I never could tolerate any chemical SSRIs.
Will I still receive the full benefit if only taken at night, or will that only help with the insomnia?
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2009, at 15:15:08
In reply to Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2009, at 14:20:39
I'll start with 100mgs at night. How and when do you decide to up your dose? After how many days? Would the move up be to 200mgs?
Regards,Brian
Posted by myco on April 1, 2009, at 16:34:18
In reply to Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2009, at 14:20:39
Do you get any sustained effects from this during the day when you take it at night (assuming its night)? Sounds to me like you are on the wrong supplement and since youve mentioned you dont tolerate ssri's thats an indication, combined with your insistance that daytime use is no good, that you dont need a seratonin based med or supplement. I'm guessing youre not as depressed and suffer more from anxiety?...correct?
Since 5htp is one of the components in the pathway that makes seratonin you can also try changing supplements that are in that pathway. For example....tryptophan (another supplement) makes 5htp then that makes seratonin ok. Tryptophan is way better for sleep/insomnia...very dozy I got on it...it's actually a highly prescribed sleep aid in some countries. Pretty safe, as long as not on a maoi, and tolerable...it's food based (comes from turkey for one example).
Now...personally I think perhaps youd be better off changing up these supplements a lil. I would suggest, again since you dont respond well to seratonin, that you "toy"/experiment with dopamine based supplements...ie tyrosine (although this may make you irritable as it tends to do to anxiety sufferers). My recommendation would be to try out something like "mucuna pruriens" ("velvet bean")...its a powdered standardized extract (best quality comes from a company called "NOW" - product name "Dopa Mucuna"). Easily obtained if you are an american...harder if canadian but possible.
This sup will give you L-Dopa that converts to dopamine (thinking/memory) and then norepinephrine for energy....take in the morning only as will energize at night....no irritability if you start slow....i.e. 1000mg max to start in the morning. Many AD's have dopamine and norepinephrine effects that are useful in treating depression and anxiety...dont consider these conditions solely a seratonin issue...they arent.
So to sleep at night combine with a natural sedative like a herbal or a supplement....if you are choosing natural over rx by preference. Some ideas for sleep supplements (i have lots of experience in this regard):
like Ive mentioned in tons of posts:
1) scullcap extract (tincture form) - sleep aid
2) niacinamide (part of vit b3 complex) - sleep aid
3) valerian - sedative and sleep aid
4) magnesium citrate - sedative/sleep aid
5) hops - sedative/sleep aidIf you still want to stick with the 5htp route which is ok but I have the initial feeling you are approaching this the wrong way (i.e. go dopamine route then add sleep aid)...I would suggest tryptophan over 5htp for sleep. And start low on 5htp to see how it goes if you are staying with it....might be you are taking way to much. I needed (although im on nardil) literally 20-50mg of the stuff to feel it. Treat it like an AD....you have to play with dosage for awhile to get it right. Mabye even combine the dopa bean (if you choose that route) with the 5htp...there is a synergy and balance that goes in neuros...increase DA you decrease SE a little and vice versa. All about experimenting with dosage. Cant offer you a proper dose...it's personal to you.
myco
------------
> I'm using this primarily for insomnia, anxiety, depression. It feels like crap if I take any during the day. I never could tolerate any chemical SSRIs.
>
> Will I still receive the full benefit if only taken at night, or will that only help with the insomnia?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2009, at 19:57:57
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 1, 2009, at 16:34:18
Yes, you're right, anything serotonin based gives me horrible depression, even from 20mgs of 5htp (same with tryptophan, I'll be depressed the entire day) today. I think i'm receiving a lot of paradoxical affects from my benzo withdrawal.
I'll look into the skullcap etc, but in the mean time, I know that unisom works pretty well for me.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by myco on April 1, 2009, at 21:04:47
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2009, at 19:57:57
Good call...wait until the benzo is cleared out of your system to evaluate how any treatment is working properly as positives will be masked by withdrawal to some degree.
---------------------------
> Yes, you're right, anything serotonin based gives me horrible depression, even from 20mgs of 5htp (same with tryptophan, I'll be depressed the entire day) today. I think i'm receiving a lot of paradoxical affects from my benzo withdrawal.
>
> I'll look into the skullcap etc, but in the mean time, I know that unisom works pretty well for me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 11:44:20
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 1, 2009, at 21:04:47
Myco, what is the best supplement for raising dopamine levels, tryosine?
Come to think of it, I had less anxiety, better sleep, focus/concentration etc, when on stimulants, wellbutrin, and provigil.
Thanks for your help. And if you could provide the dosages, I'd appreciate it. I'm probably more of a high dopamine level responder.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 12:22:09
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 11:44:20
Id almost bet on you responding better to DA and NE than SE.
Is tyrosine the best sup? no...BUT this is individual. Like ive mentioned before it has a tendency to make people with anxiety very irritable...thats dose dependant. if you want to try it start very low...open up a cap and dump out like 1/4...take twice a day ok on an empty stomach with a multivatamin (includes folic acid, b's and copper) ok....this trick will increase absorption plus allow tyrosine to get into the brain better as if you have food in ya stomach it will be "outcompeted" and not get in to the full extent.
Like I mentioned dude....mucuna pruriens way better for anxiety patients. many people who complain of irritability on tyrosine say they dont experience that on 'dopa mucuna'....lots of energy and concentration/memory but no irritability but again dose dependent and individual. best to start with this one if you want the best chance of results. its a great synergy of a suite of compounds plus L-Dopa. Dosage: sgain start slow...in the morning, empty stomach with vit b6 (cofactor) - easiest to just take a multi here. Small doses to start. 500mg start dose...then wait a week mabye or less then raise to 1000mg and see...raise until u hit the point of irritability then go down a bit...thats your dose. ride it out....when it "fails" raise again slowly until breaking point then down.
10 bucks (im good for it lol) says you will get some benefit from that bean....but mind your dose and go slow. avoid night dosing if you can...NE at night = no sleep.
> Myco, what is the best supplement for raising dopamine levels, tryosine?
>
> Come to think of it, I had less anxiety, better sleep, focus/concentration etc, when on stimulants, wellbutrin, and provigil.
>
> Thanks for your help. And if you could provide the dosages, I'd appreciate it. I'm probably more of a high dopamine level responder.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 12:54:35
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 12:22:09
lol, ok, I'll go with the dopa mucuna. I'll forget the tyrosine for now.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 15:00:06
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 12:22:09
So if you do choose the mucuna go:
brand recommendation go with "NOW" product name "Dope Mucuna"....ive tried a few different brands and this one, in terms of most herbs/ups actually, is much better consistency in quality.myco
---------
> Id almost bet on you responding better to DA and NE than SE.
>
> Is tyrosine the best sup? no...BUT this is individual. Like ive mentioned before it has a tendency to make people with anxiety very irritable...thats dose dependant. if you want to try it start very low...open up a cap and dump out like 1/4...take twice a day ok on an empty stomach with a multivatamin (includes folic acid, b's and copper) ok....this trick will increase absorption plus allow tyrosine to get into the brain better as if you have food in ya stomach it will be "outcompeted" and not get in to the full extent.
>
> Like I mentioned dude....mucuna pruriens way better for anxiety patients. many people who complain of irritability on tyrosine say they dont experience that on 'dopa mucuna'....lots of energy and concentration/memory but no irritability but again dose dependent and individual. best to start with this one if you want the best chance of results. its a great synergy of a suite of compounds plus L-Dopa. Dosage: sgain start slow...in the morning, empty stomach with vit b6 (cofactor) - easiest to just take a multi here. Small doses to start. 500mg start dose...then wait a week mabye or less then raise to 1000mg and see...raise until u hit the point of irritability then go down a bit...thats your dose. ride it out....when it "fails" raise again slowly until breaking point then down.
>
> 10 bucks (im good for it lol) says you will get some benefit from that bean....but mind your dose and go slow. avoid night dosing if you can...NE at night = no sleep.
>
>
>
> > Myco, what is the best supplement for raising dopamine levels, tryosine?
> >
> > Come to think of it, I had less anxiety, better sleep, focus/concentration etc, when on stimulants, wellbutrin, and provigil.
> >
> > Thanks for your help. And if you could provide the dosages, I'd appreciate it. I'm probably more of a high dopamine level responder.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Brian
>
>
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 16:20:20
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » myco, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 15:00:06
Bummer, my local health food/supplement store didn't carry the dopa mucuna. I'll have to order it online.
This morning I did pick up some tyrosine, tried a 500mg pill, and got some great relaxation from it.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 16:47:35
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » myco, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 15:00:06
What would the max dose of the NOW mucuna dose be? I see that 2 caps has 120mgs of l dopa, but i've also seen l dopa sold in 250mgs.
I'm a higher dose responder. And typically, dopamine drugs make my irratability and anxiety less.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by bleauberry on April 2, 2009, at 16:57:10
In reply to Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2009, at 14:20:39
I don't think 5htp is a very good supplement. I've tried it several times over 15 years. Good for vivid dream-filled sleep, some daytime anti-anxiety, but not much else. It also gave me more sexual dysfunction than SSRIs did.
I think internet-hyped doses are way too high. I feel 25mg is a healthy dose, 50mg per day as an upper ceiling.
At one time I took 50mg doses three times per day. It worked maybe a little bit during the first two weeks but that's it. Another time I took just 12.5mg to 25mg in the evening for sleep. That worked good for sleep. Still though, that extra serotonin was hanging around most of the next day and had me lethargic and more depressed.
The only forum I am aware of where people discuss their experiences with 5htp is sjwinfo.org. It works real well for a few, not very well for many, and seems to have a high poopout rate within 3 months.
I suspect it would perform better when combined with dl-phenylalanine for an equal balance across all neurotransmitters.
Just some opinions though. I've tried it and studied it. I think the faith people have in it and the sales are unjustified based on the lack of good anecdotal evidence and on the lack of clinical evidence. One clinical study tested it and not a single patient in the whole study responded to it.
Probably the best natural antidepressant I am aware of that does have good anecdotal and clinical backing is SAMe. Coming in second place would be Kira or Perika brands of St Johns Wort. And an angle almost entirely missed is adrenal cortex extract, as I believe most psych conditions have adrenal/cortisol dysfunction as a cause or syndrome of the complex.
Posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 17:48:56
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 16:47:35
Medical studies....remember this sup is helpful for parkinsons also eh...studies show just as good as rx l-lopa....you can take literally many grams of this stuff (the mucuna pruriens) I would suggest starting like i mentioned with 1 or 2 capsules...(go by the weight of the capsule when you use NOW - dopa mucuna)...500mg if ok then 1000mg if ok...etc...you can safely take up to around 10grams of that stuff if i remember the studies. but you probably wont need that much...just remember at some point stimulation will become irritability...so then youve crossed the line and bring it down a lil. Typically for anxiety patients/depression patients dose range is 2000mg to 5000mg area (think by capsule - for now) not mg of L-dopa.
> What would the max dose of the NOW mucuna dose be? I see that 2 caps has 120mgs of l dopa, but i've also seen l dopa sold in 250mgs.
>
> I'm a higher dose responder. And typically, dopamine drugs make my irratability and anxiety less.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Brian
>
>
Posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 17:51:12
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 16:20:20
Good show on the tyrosine though. it also feeds into da and ne. just be aware the potential for increased anxiety/irritability is higher on tyrosine then other sups for DA. So again...go up as high as you can until irritability hits then bring it down until thats gone and hang there until it "dies" then readjust dose. just like an AD. treats sups just like AD's. ignore the bottle labels...people writing those are not medical pros...read actual studies for that
> Bummer, my local health food/supplement store didn't carry the dopa mucuna. I'll have to order it online.
>
> This morning I did pick up some tyrosine, tried a 500mg pill, and got some great relaxation from it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 19:51:58
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 17:51:12
Geez were you right. I took a second 500mg of tyrosine, and some serious anxiety, racing thoughts etc kicked in. Felt like back in the Ritalin days.
BTW, the dopa mucuna isn't a stimulant is it?
Thankfully it arrives tomorrow.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 21:47:55
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 19:51:58
Tyrosine does other things also...various lil side pathways etc...also its a "pure" form so its gonna hit NE hard...making it easy to cross the "irritability" line. i hate the stuff personally but in small doses i can tolerate it even on maois
Mucuna is a "food"...it's got tons of other stuff in it that gives it a nice balance/synergy kind of thing going on....some compounds enhancing others and cancelling out bad side effects of others etc...Yes it is a stimulant...because L-dopa goes to dopamine which goes to norepinephrine (NE) - gonna give you stimulation for sure but it "feels" different because you have all those other things goin on in the bean plus L-dopa is one step ahead of tyrosine in the pathway and for reason doesnt cause as much stimulation as tyrosine (but again mind the dose)...its still gonna make NE but it feels different from tyrosine...you will see. again start slow like i said and work up to intolerable then bring it back a lil for max pos effect. or just cruise on a low dose...whatever feels good for you really. I always tell people to "listen to your body"....it will tell you if its agreeable or not...and at low dose moving up quick most people who require da and ne find it easy in feel but energetic enough to get ya going.
Again choose brand wisely as all are not equal in terms of quality. when you buy sups always look for "GMC" on the label...this is like a certification of consistency in quality. and the company "NOW" - product "dopa mucuna" is among the best of any supplements/herbals you can get...so far anyway.
> Geez were you right. I took a second 500mg of tyrosine, and some serious anxiety, racing thoughts etc kicked in. Felt like back in the Ritalin days.
>
> BTW, the dopa mucuna isn't a stimulant is it?
>
> Thankfully it arrives tomorrow.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 22:34:06
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 21:47:55
Can you move up the dose daily until you hit the "irritability" or anxiety?
I much prefer the effects of dopamine than NE. I'm a little hesitant adding a CNS stimulant, while trying to come off of valium, CNS depressant.
What do you think?
Brian
Posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 22:53:20
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 22:34:06
I would start and wait a few days at the first low dose you choose. move slowly and you will notice a line of change at some point...where it goes ya that feel good to ugh to much.
My friend there is no real way to get DA only ok...you increase DA and its gonna feed into the synthesis of NE regardless. There are no sups that only give DA just as virtually no rx meds (i know of) that only give DA....da is a step in the pathway. Technically you could "block" the step between DA and NE with an inhibitor but this is better on paper/in theory.
Also if this doesnt quite fit how you want it to work you can try adding an inhibitor of decarboxlase...basically blocking L-Dopa from becoming Dopamine in your body (outside the brain)...synthesis of neuros also takes place outside the brain in the "perifery" they call it...having DA form in the perifery will give some added effect (cant tell you what, its individual) maybe neg or pos. So adding a natural herbal like "green tea extract" (no caffeine make sure), which contains EGCG (a natural decarboxlase inhibitor), to your dopa bean will prevent da formation outside the brain thus increasing da formation inside the brain...this will provide a better effect on DA and NE possibly. Start without the inhibitor and see how it works then "play" if you want but adding EGCG or something similar to "potentiate" the effect of the bean....warning though. Careful when you play like this while on rx meds...dont this on maois and careful doing this if youre on a med that hits DA and NE hard anyway. added effect maybe to much. again play the dose game...adjust & adjust & adjust to best effect.
hmmm valium withdrawal. Its not gonna kill you. It may make you more irritable than you need to be...meaning increase the anxiety from valium withdrawal anyway...but didnt you have success with tyrosine small dose anyway? if you did then mucuna will help also at some dose. Just play....ideally though yes you want to be totally clean before starting to get the true feel of the sup. I like to start monotherapy usually then add from there...but im on nardil and im not quiting to assess a sup...so i just add really low and move up very slow. sups are needed in very miniscule quantities, in many cases, when on maois.
> Can you move up the dose daily until you hit the "irritability" or anxiety?
>
> I much prefer the effects of dopamine than NE. I'm a little hesitant adding a CNS stimulant, while trying to come off of valium, CNS depressant.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 23:15:49
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 22:53:20
Thanks for all of your valuable info, I greatly appreciate it. I'm excited to begin taking it.
Last question; you take your full dose in the morning, is that correct?
Brian
Posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 23:29:52
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2009, at 23:15:49
Depends on you. It's gonna give you energy via stimulation. For example my mom uses this regularly (me occasionally as it can be used on and off also)..she takes it in the morning around 9am and finds the stimulation wears off around 5pm. but again this is individual. play with timing...this is all a new game in a way...just like an AD you would play around with when you took it, how you divided your doses. If you want to sleep the best though, I would advise taking this sup in the morning/early afternoon to start...giving you an idea of how long it lasts for you and how tolerable, if there are ups and downs etc...how it effects mood and sleep...then you adjust the time. also you may find that splitting the dose up during the day is better. mabye one dose morning and one dose afternoon. Just play dude...experiment. thats all part of the game...its what a dr would do if under care and this was an AD.
> Thanks for all of your valuable info, I greatly appreciate it. I'm excited to begin taking it.
>
> Last question; you take your full dose in the morning, is that correct?
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 3, 2009, at 10:02:14
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 2, 2009, at 23:29:52
Do you think that the mucuna could be something comparable to Provigil, just in a non-chemical form?
Regards,
Brian
Posted by myco on April 3, 2009, at 10:13:59
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 3, 2009, at 10:02:14
hmmm...I dont think so. theorhetically you can compare something like this a certain rx meds that work DA and NE but you gotta realize that the bean extract (pretty much a whole food - tons of compounds in it) has a suite of compounds that give different synergistic effects, cancel out some of eachothers effects, have a variety of effects on the individual all in the background of L-Dopa and its effects on DA and NE. If you look at the chemical compounds found in the bean you will tons of health promoting things there that you cant take into account for rx meds.
So in feel perhaps its gonna be close to certain meds like provigil for some people but you are likely to get a more mild effect unless on a massive dose. But L-dopa is a rx med and has been shown in studies to be just as effective coming from that bean or a drs pad for parkinsons patients at particular doses.
Its possible it will be similar but dont bet on it...if a sup was that strong to be comparable in efficacy and recognized by fda then it wouldnt be a sup...itd be an rx med....which brings me to health canadas issue with dopa bean. they argue it contains a rx med (l-dopa) so therefor shouldnt cross the border without an rx....bollocks...this is politics...if a patient can pick up a cheap bean extract like that for dirt cheap and get good effect as opposed to expensive rx meds then the pharm companies would lose business. border guards let stuff like that through all the time...health canada pipes up in complaint but since its not illegal...it may cross and may not. my off topic rant there
Youd have to get provigil and try but again dont bet on it. its gonna milder but most likely more aggreeable to your body
> Do you think that the mucuna could be something comparable to Provigil, just in a non-chemical form?
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 3, 2009, at 10:29:23
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 3, 2009, at 10:13:59
Interesting. I found the tyrosine much more stimulating and anxiety producing than Provigil. It's a pretty mild stimulant, but does good work with dopamine, and depression for me. I was just trying to be more "natural".
Is it throwing my CNS for a loop if taking/coming off of valium, while taking a CNS stimulant?
I know it was much more harsh when I was taking the stimulants ritalin etc along with the benzos. I think that was messing with my CNS pretty bad. But I think that Provigil is comproable to a couple cups of coffee.
Brian
Posted by myco on April 3, 2009, at 11:00:35
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily?, posted by qbsbrown on April 3, 2009, at 10:29:23
Yes valium is giving your CNS "a good go"...all kinds of backlash kind of issues may appear when withdrawing from the benzo.
Natural approach is great if it works well enough for...unfortunately for many, particularly on a board such as this, these methods are far to weak. plus dr's tend to consider herbals/supplements to "border on flakey", so to speak...ive had dr's kind of just ignore or dismiss my interest in natural methods. In a way they have to though...I believe, ethically, they arent allowed to make herbal recommendations using their authority (proper advice) since those methods have not been fully tested.
when using a stim go easy on the benzo or lower the dose of the stim. this is speedball effect...upper and downer same time...why? use benzo for breakthrough anxiety/sleep etc...not to "suppress" the effect of the stim...this is kind of counterproductive isnt it? although the stim may be doing more than just providing energy etc.
Its all a gray area here...just use/do what is best for you. again "listen to your body"...if ritalin and benzo combo make you feel crappy and arent providing enough good although the dr may assure you they will or are working...reconsider or ask questions about that. it is you not him/her that need the best feeling you can get.
------
> Interesting. I found the tyrosine much more stimulating and anxiety producing than Provigil. It's a pretty mild stimulant, but does good work with dopamine, and depression for me. I was just trying to be more "natural".
>
> Is it throwing my CNS for a loop if taking/coming off of valium, while taking a CNS stimulant?
>
> I know it was much more harsh when I was taking the stimulants ritalin etc along with the benzos. I think that was messing with my CNS pretty bad. But I think that Provigil is comproable to a couple cups of coffee.
>
> Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 3, 2009, at 13:16:31
In reply to Re: Is it ok to just take 5 htp once daily? » qbsbrown, posted by myco on April 3, 2009, at 11:00:35
> Yes valium is giving your CNS "a good go"...all kinds of backlash kind of issues may appear when withdrawing from the benzo.
>
> Natural approach is great if it works well enough for...unfortunately for many, particularly on a board such as this, these methods are far to weak. plus dr's tend to consider herbals/supplements to "border on flakey", so to speak...ive had dr's kind of just ignore or dismiss my interest in natural methods. In a way they have to though...I believe, ethically, they arent allowed to make herbal recommendations using their authority (proper advice) since those methods have not been fully tested.
>
> when using a stim go easy on the benzo or lower the dose of the stim. this is speedball effect...upper and downer same time...why? use benzo for breakthrough anxiety/sleep etc...not to "suppress" the effect of the stim...this is kind of counterproductive isnt it? although the stim may be doing more than just providing energy etc.
>
> Its all a gray area here...just use/do what is best for you. again "listen to your body"...if ritalin and benzo combo make you feel crappy and arent providing enough good although the dr may assure you they will or are working...reconsider or ask questions about that. it is you not him/her that need the best feeling you can get.
>
> ------
>
yeah, I found that while on Provigil, even though the benzos must have been canceling out any stim effect, apparently the dopamine was still getting through, and working great for depression/anxiety etc.The Ritalins/adderalls etc were much more harsh to use with the benzos, for sure the speedball effect.
That said, still waiting for the mucuna, took a tyrosine this morning, and i can tell something is working. Looks like we've pinned the tail on the donkey, that being dopamine. At least it took all of this playing around to figure it out.
I appreicate your help.
Regards,
Brian
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