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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update, posted by zmg on December 9, 2006, at 13:57:42
hi zmg
Thank you for the info. I definitely want to know what I'm considering trying...
that link and the info are appreciated :)
thanks again
namaste,
lilith> I really don't want to be alarmist or anything, but there have been some documented long-term effects (probably with heavy use):
>
> "..chewed kratom daily for 3 to 30 years (mean of 18.6 years). Long-term use of kratom resulted in the person becoming thin, skin darken, dry mouth, frequent urination and constipation."
>
> Better to be informed then alarmed.
>
> http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/kratom.htm
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update, posted by zmg on December 9, 2006, at 13:57:42
I've read similar reports of this side effect before. It seems to be a concern for some people taking it at very high doses to get completely wasted for several decades - as with the long-term abuse mentioned among the working classes of Thailand.
This problem was raised by somebody posting on the opiate boards a while ago as it has become popular among heroin addicts posting there as a substitute and a self-help detox method. I'll try to find a link. It was not considered a problem by the people posting there who had been using it at high doses already for a few years. They considered the weight loss to be caused by appetite suppression (as is the case with all stims like the Focalin liliths is taking).
There's a similar syndrome reported with long term, chronic Kava Kava abuse which is also reported to damage the liver. It doesn't seem to apply to low/moderate therapeutic use.
I guess like with all substances using it excessively for a long period of time is likely to cause some harm, though the Kratom syndrome was reversible on discontinuation despite the great length of time (up to 30 years) it had been abused.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 9, 2006, at 14:22:59
Hi Liliths,
Here is a link to a company that specialises in Krtom: http://www.kratomherbs.com/.
They offer sample packs for newbies: http://kratomherbs.com/Kratom_Sample_Packs.asp.
Maybe it would be a good idea to order a sample pack and see what you like yourself?
I've tried the regular strength leaves, 20x extract and the resin. You can also get Kratom oil - which is supposed to be very good.
I would think the lyophilized extract would provide the best absorbtion.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Kratom » zmg, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 14:43:27
Well ther's loads of info on Kratom here!:http://forum.opiophile.org/search.php?searchid=177320
It seems some people who are looking to get high feel almost nothing, while others have a euphoric experience. I guess people using it for depression may feel different effects though.......
Q
Posted by zmg on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: Kratom » Quintal, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 15:10:59
I always figured potency in grey market herbs like Kratom would probably vary a lot, sort of like grey market chemicals.
Quality control probably fluctuates between vendor a lot and because of the nature of the market (and frequently, intended use) there isn't a lot of good discussion regarding various vendors, standarization and the quality of their product.
I imagine it would be hard for a vendor to invest a great deal of money in standarization when the legality of the herb could change at any time.
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: Kratom » Quintal, posted by zmg on December 10, 2006, at 14:10:55
Many online vendors are supplying what they claim are 15x extracts etc, and it's doubtful they're all medical grade products since that is not the target market. You certainly couldn't get a precise dose of mitragynine from standard ground leaf - the first batch I got contained bits of twigs. I stuck to concentrates and resins after that, which seem more reliable.
The bigger online vendors supply hundreds of products besides Kratom, so I imagine the do have the resources to cope with this. It's worth emailing the vendor before you buy if you have concerns.
It would be interesting to mail a standard query to all the online Kratom vendors and compare their responses? I think I'll do that actually! I'll post their replies on this thread as and when I get them. Any ideas for particularly cunning and penetrating questions?
Q
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: Kratom » zmg, posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 14:57:06
Is there any way of testing some of the products ourselves? It would be interesting to compare findings
I imagine one could ask about their quality control. Anybody good at chemistry here?
Standardization of herbal products, supplements, even vitamins have always been an issue. For that matter, the same questions have been raised about 'generic' drugs.
Just my 2¢... I know I haven't really added anything to this thread but I am interested.
Yes, please keep us updated :)
namaste,
lilith> Many online vendors are supplying what they claim are 15x extracts etc, and it's doubtful they're all medical grade products since that is not the target market. You certainly couldn't get a precise dose of mitragynine from standard ground leaf - the first batch I got contained bits of twigs. I stuck to concentrates and resins after that, which seem more reliable.
>
> The bigger online vendors supply hundreds of products besides Kratom, so I imagine the do have the resources to cope with this. It's worth emailing the vendor before you buy if you have concerns.
>
> It would be interesting to mail a standard query to all the online Kratom vendors and compare their responses? I think I'll do that actually! I'll post their replies on this thread as and when I get them. Any ideas for particularly cunning and penetrating questions?
>
> Q
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: just a quick update » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 13:49:49
Hi Q
you're right about the self-esteem issue. The hardest thing about this ordeal was having my rights violated, losing more control over my own life... the experience itself was also very shaming
I think some of my interest in kratom has a lot to do with simply wanting to not be told what I can or cannot take. I am aware there may be a huge difference in advertised strengths vs actual. It will be interesting to try it as well as the oxycintin spray - I'll keep you posted on it all, if you like.
I'm not feeling very optimistic about my future at the momentbtw, I did order that sample pack - I figure what the hell :)
I'll have to call my pdoc tomorrow to tell him about the latest news - that I have no standing to change things as they are and have to accept their terms if I want the damn license. And I'll have to look into employent attys for the discrimination suit
to be honest, I don't want to do any of it... I'm going to have to push myself on this. And that includes trying to find other meds.
I hope I am functional if and when I do get a license. I won't pretend I am still the person I was when I passed my boards and first applied. I've lost a lot of momentum, confidence and belief in my ability to actually have a worthwhile life again... and getting that was a hard one battle to begin with. It took giving up a lot of other things I haven't been able to regain in myself...
oh my, I really dislike whining like this - so sorry!
I know self-pity can be awfully unattractive as well as frustrating for other peoplethanks for listening
namaste,
lilith> I think you'll like the Kratom ;-) Can't say for sure about the oxytocin spray since I haven't tried it, but I hope it is effective. Please keep me posted.
>
> I'm thinking it would be possible to detect mitragynine, the main active alkaloid in Kratom, in a urine test if it were analysed in a lab. There are no standard tests that would identify it as yet and none likely to be in the near future. There is little they could do about it even if you were to test positive for mitragynine for some reason since it is not a controlled substance in the US according to Erowid and other sources: http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_law.shtml.
>
> I hope you do go on to get your license and practice anyway - perhaps while mentally holding the middle finger up at the people who tried to deprive you of everything you've worked for? I'm not sure about long-term efficiency of either Kratom and oxytocin spray, and the same goes for hydrocodone, but I guess you may have more self-esteem to help you cope better when you are back in work in any case?
>
> Have you thought about discussing these things with the pdoc? I wouldn't expect him to be suportive given the things you've said about him, but you never know.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: Kratom » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 16:12:31
Hi Liliths,
Hmmmmm, well I studied chemistry at college but I think mitragynine extraction is beyond my capabilities right now! It would be an interesting challenge to try though.
Zach, is mitragynine listed in the Merck Index by any chance?
>Standardization of herbal products, supplements, even vitamins have always been an issue. For that matter, the same questions have been raised about 'generic' drugs.
That's true. I guess your optimum dose may vary from day to day in any case as your stress levels and tolerance fluctuate? The same thing happened to me with benzos. If you were using a tincture you're bound to get a slightly different dose each time you take it anyway.
I'll just ask the companies some generic questions about their quality control - lab certificates and testing etc.
Will keep you posted.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: just a quick update » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 16:32:50
>The hardest thing about this ordeal was having my rights violated, losing more control over my own life... the experience itself was also very shaming
I can imagine it is - I feel angry just hearing about what you're going through. We depressives etc are so often told to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and get back into work, but what incentive is there when we're treated like this?
>I'm not feeling very optimistic about my future at the moment
That's to be expected given your circumstances, but I hope you don't let the fight go out of you - there are plenty of us here on PB who will give you the support (and weapons) you need to keep up the good battle.
>btw, I did order that sample pack - I figure what the hell :)
Well you should have one very relaxing and enjoyable evening trying them out if nothing else.
>to be honest, I don't want to do any of it... I'm going to have to push myself on this. And that includes trying to find other meds.
Ah, but you must keep trying now when things seem bleak - it's a sure-fire way to earn solid confidence when you triumph and things brighten up again. It'll seem like plain sailing from then on and you'll be able to look back at yourself and know you're capable of riding out the storm. Future challenges will seem less intimidating because of this.
>I hope I am functional if and when I do get a license. I won't pretend I am still the person I was when I passed my boards and first applied. I've lost a lot of momentum, confidence and belief in my ability to actually have a worthwhile life again... and getting that was a hard one battle to begin with. It took giving up a lot of other things I haven't been able to regain in myself...
This can be just a temporary setback if you make it that way, and I'm guessing much of this negative self-perception will change when you're doing the job you trained to do.
>oh my, I really dislike whining like this - so sorry!
>I know self-pity can be awfully unattractive as well as frustrating for other peopleI think we'll let you off with that for now ;-) - There are loads of people here rooting for you and I think I speak for most when I say it's very rewarding to see someone we've encouraged succeed at reaching their goals life.
Keep us posted.
Q
Posted by liliths on December 11, 2006, at 7:16:09
In reply to License » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 18:53:18
hi Q
this board is probably the most important place in my life right now :)
yes, your support DOES make me want to go out and beat the bastards as it would be a victory for us all! I would eventually like to advocate for better monitoring. One of the reasons I tell myself I must go through with being compliant now is to get inside the very system I hope to change
my biggest worries about practicing are that I already have credentials and skills in areas I'm not capable of using. Hiding in the house instead. I was a graphic designer/digital artist for many years until my career tanked after 9/11. And I'm a Certified Personal Trainer. But not being able to go out, much less market myself, makes obtaining clients a tad difficult LOL
before the whole license fiasco, I had a slot secured on our local Sports Massage Team. I know that for me getting out & showing up is 90% of the battle. Though it was only part-time, it would mean working in my field, regaining my confidence, getting out and meeting people - networking!. But whether that slot will still be available by the time my license ever does come through - if indeed it does - is anybody's guess
I also had a potential opportunity to work with hurricane katrina survivors. Louisiana has very good reciprocity laws which would have enabled me to obtain a license in that state once I received my florida license. Now I need to find out if my license is going to have a 'red flag' on it - meaning I'm being monitored - which would make getting licensed anywhere else nearly impossible. And of course, that's another opportunity that probably won't be there either
without some structure, I am pretty much my own worst enemy. All the studies about 'learned helplessness' (and oddly enough many of them were in the opiate papers :) are quite true.
Depressive dysfunction becomes a habit. Even if I'm feeling better, that doesn't always mean I can act on it if I've become too used to withdrawing from life. Like anything else, showing up takes practice and that's why I know I have no choice but to comply with these morons. If I don't, then I really DO let them win. I just hope I have a VERY strong and nasty civil suit to get them with. I should at least be reimbursed for ALL the $$ I've had to shell out and the shame & suffering alone is priceless. Oh how I want to make PRN pay for thinking it is above the law!thanks for cutting me some whine slack :)
now I just need to figure out how I think my meds ought to be changed. I've always done the bulk of my research for my meds - I've been using this board for many, many years now - when it was only a med board - and was shocked after returning from one particular hiatus to find how huge we had become and had ALL these other rooms as well! Simply learning how many of us were out there who don't get 'fixed' by taking that one little advertised pill was tantamount to a transcendent experience. I'll never forget the profound relief that came with not being alone with 'being me' anymore
I know I need to keep the focalin xr and the klonopin, but I'm wondering if augmenting the wellbutrin/buspar with lamacil would be advised - or if I shoud drop the wellbutrin OR just the buspar in favor of toally new meds. I have read that lamactil works best as an augment to an AD so I know I'd probably need something. As I've said before, I don't do well on SSRI's and anything with weight gain is a huge no-no for me - nothing will take me down faster than that! One becomes used to meds like focalin. Early in the day, when it's at its peak efficacy, I make myself eat regularly anyway. In the evenings, when it's worn off, I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out.
and almost everything I look at seems to have that potential, except for the wellbutrin. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free. I'm going to need to go into my pdoc's office with a whole list of 'possibilities', as well as documentation about why I want to try it. As I said earlier, he has become increasingly resistant to making any changes - laziness? i don't know. But if I have to cut the hydrocodone, I definitely need to consider a different regimen.
thanks for listening. I'm really curious to play with my new toys LOL when they arrive and I'm also interested in what some of these sites have to say about quality control. I agree that even standardized meds can affect one differently on any given day, as our bodies are never in the same place biochemically or hormonally and our nutrient ratios and hydration levels affect what we take too. But being a gym rat and a huge fan of supplementation, I know that consistently and accuracy of claims has always been an issue.
ok, enough rambling for one morning. Time to go find attys!!
take care of your sweet self. You've been a blessing
namaste,
lilith> >The hardest thing about this ordeal was having my rights violated, losing more control over my own life... the experience itself was also very shaming
>
> I can imagine it is - I feel angry just hearing about what you're going through. We depressives etc are so often told to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and get back into work, but what incentive is there when we're treated like this?
>
> >I'm not feeling very optimistic about my future at the moment
>
> That's to be expected given your circumstances, but I hope you don't let the fight go out of you - there are plenty of us here on PB who will give you the support (and weapons) you need to keep up the good battle.
>
> >btw, I did order that sample pack - I figure what the hell :)
>
> Well you should have one very relaxing and enjoyable evening trying them out if nothing else.
>
> >to be honest, I don't want to do any of it... I'm going to have to push myself on this. And that includes trying to find other meds.
>
> Ah, but you must keep trying now when things seem bleak - it's a sure-fire way to earn solid confidence when you triumph and things brighten up again. It'll seem like plain sailing from then on and you'll be able to look back at yourself and know you're capable of riding out the storm. Future challenges will seem less intimidating because of this.
>
> >I hope I am functional if and when I do get a license. I won't pretend I am still the person I was when I passed my boards and first applied. I've lost a lot of momentum, confidence and belief in my ability to actually have a worthwhile life again... and getting that was a hard one battle to begin with. It took giving up a lot of other things I haven't been able to regain in myself...
>
> This can be just a temporary setback if you make it that way, and I'm guessing much of this negative self-perception will change when you're doing the job you trained to do.
>
> >oh my, I really dislike whining like this - so sorry!
> >I know self-pity can be awfully unattractive as well as frustrating for other people
>
> I think we'll let you off with that for now ;-) - There are loads of people here rooting for you and I think I speak for most when I say it's very rewarding to see someone we've encouraged succeed at reaching their goals life.
>
> Keep us posted.
>
> Q
Posted by verne on December 11, 2006, at 18:07:18
In reply to Kratom » zmg, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 14:43:27
I tried kratom a few times and noticed a slight opiate effect. I can't remember the doses but I far exceeded the usual both in tea (using the simmer a quart of water with the leaves down to a couple ounces of bitter extract) by chewing, and even trying to smoke it in a waterpipe. But any *high* was really weak and short-lived, followed by a long headache - one lasted 3 days. (and I rarely get headaches)
I got it from www.iamshaman.com They seem to get better marks for quality than most ethnobotanical suppliers.
For me it's not worth the headache or price to continue experimenting. I'm burned out on most of the "enthno"'s. Blue Lotus petals (not the Lily) from Nepal was the only thing that was truly worth smoking and it doesn't come close to pot. I mixed it with daminana or something neutral for burnability. Daminana powder by itself isn't bad in a waterpipe. Nice light sedation with a little body tingle thrown in.
Anyway, if I didn't have klonopin I'd probably be mixing up a smoke mixture of blue lotus http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductUID=1432&ProductCode=BLP-HOZ and damiana.
verne
Posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 22:38:04
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 11, 2006, at 7:16:09
> my biggest worries about practicing are that I already have credentials and skills in areas I'm not capable of using. Hiding in the house instead. I was a graphic designer/digital artist for many years until my career tanked after 9/11. And I'm a Certified Personal Trainer. But not being able to go out, much less market myself, makes obtaining clients a tad difficult LOL
Well you seem to have plenty of skills and experience to bring to your new profession liliths.> now I just need to figure out how I think my meds ought to be changed. I've always done the bulk of my research for my meds - I've been using this board for many, many years now - when it was only a med board - and was shocked after returning from one particular hiatus to find how huge we had become and had ALL these other rooms as well! Simply learning how many of us were out there who don't get 'fixed' by taking that one little advertised pill was tantamount to a transcendent experience. I'll never forget the profound relief that came with not being alone with 'being me' anymore
>
> I know I need to keep the focalin xr and the klonopin, but I'm wondering if augmenting the wellbutrin/buspar with lamacil would be advised - or if I shoud drop the wellbutrin OR just the buspar in favor of toally new meds. I have read that lamactil works best as an augment to an AD so I know I'd probably need something. As I've said before, I don't do well on SSRI's and anything with weight gain is a huge no-no for me - nothing will take me down faster than that! One becomes used to meds like focalin. Early in the day, when it's at its peak efficacy, I make myself eat regularly anyway. In the evenings, when it's worn off, I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out.
>
> and almost everything I look at seems to have that potential, except for the wellbutrin. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free. I'm going to need to go into my pdoc's office with a whole list of 'possibilities', as well as documentation about why I want to try it. As I said earlier, he has become increasingly resistant to making any changes - laziness? i don't know. But if I have to cut the hydrocodone, I definitely need to consider a different regimen.A dopamine agonist may be a good place to start if you haven't tried them already? Nardil may also be very effective, especially in combination with Lamictal? There are obviously potential problems with the Focalin and the opiate (but you are planning to drop that anyway?), though I have heard of people combining opiates and stims with MAOIs it's not for the faint hearted. Parnate would probably be better with regards to the ADHD problem, but you have already tried that?
Perhaps Parnate, Lamictal (as augmenter), Lyrica (as a benzo substitute if they try and force you off it?) and low dose Focalin or dopamine antagonist?
I'm not sure. You seem to have a very complicated history and are quite informed yourself. I guess you know the limits of your pdoc best.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 23:02:33
In reply to Re: Kratom, posted by verne on December 11, 2006, at 18:07:18
>I tried kratom a few times and noticed a slight opiate effect. I can't remember the doses but I far exceeded the usual both in tea (using the simmer a quart of water with the leaves down to a couple ounces of bitter extract) by chewing, and even trying to smoke it in a waterpipe. But any *high* was really weak and short-lived, followed by a long headache - one lasted 3 days. (and I rarely get headaches)
What is your usual opiate tolerance? I can feel the effect of 16mg codeine myself which is supposedly quite low. It's more a relief of chronic depression and nervous tension than a 'high' for me. The headache is strange - didn't have than problem myself, I had a lovely warm afterglow the next day! Did you try an alcoholic extract? I think I've read somewhere that mitragynine is lypophillic and can be hard to dissolve in water - you mostly get other alkaloids and pigments that way. The best way of getting the maximum dose of mitragynine is to soak the leaves in alcohol for a few days. This method seems to works best for me in any case.
>I got it from www.iamshaman.com They seem to get better marks for quality than most ethnobotanical suppliers.
How many have you tried? I read a dubious story on their wormwood page that made me very wary and suspicious:http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Search=Wormwood
That story about Tatha, "Goddess of Scotland", sounds like cr*p to me. I live near the Scottish border and have never heard anything like it. It seems designed to seduce a naive "New Age" American audience to my ears.
>For me it's not worth the headache or price to continue experimenting. I'm burned out on most of the "enthno"'s. Blue Lotus petals (not the Lily) from Nepal was the only thing that was truly worth smoking and it doesn't come close to pot. I mixed it with daminana or something neutral for burnability. Daminana powder by itself isn't bad in a waterpipe. Nice light sedation with a little body tingle thrown in.
There is a blend of herbs called 'Spice' available here in the UK that is generally considered equal to or better than skunk by most who try it. Here is a copy of the product description:
--------------------------------------------------
Ingredients:
Baybean, Blue Lotus, Lion's Tail, Lousewort, Indian Warrior, Dwarf Scullcap, Maconha Brava, Pink Lotus, Marshmallow, Red Clover, Rose, Siberian Motherwort, Vanilla and HoneyUse Responsibly:
Not permitted for sale to persons under the age of 18Not permitted to be sold to the following territories due to sales restrictions:
USA, Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Holland, Austria, Japan
--------------------------------------------------I've never tried Blue Lotus on its own. I've read it's good soaked in a bottle of red wine - adds a mellow, psychedelic edge to it?
I like to idea of using a portable electronic vaporizer to get a clean dose of active ingredient: http://www.everyonedoesit.co.uk/online_headshop/productCategory.cfm?sC=Vapir_Vaporizers&iProductCategoryID=16&iLastCatID=12
I wonder what regular doses of Kratom resin vapor would feel like?
Q
Posted by verne on December 12, 2006, at 0:15:27
In reply to Re: Kratom » verne, posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 23:02:33
I think I have low tolerance for opiates. I usually got looped and felt no pain on low doses. I had a few morphine shots for one injury or another and a couple weeks of percodan when I had my wisdom teeth pulled many years ago. I may have popped a few codeine but not sure about the dose. I was a cheap pot smoker too. One toke of really good stuff was enough for me. Strong hash made me horizontal for several hours. Yet I always took acid in the 1,000 microgram range and couldn't get enough or quit smiling.
I'm trying to abstain from alcohol so soaking kratom or blue lotus in wine isn't an option for me. I agree, this is the preferred, most effective method. The first Egyptologists (early 1900's) recorded how high they got when they soaked blue lotus (or lily) in wine for a week and drank it. They described a psychedelic and euphoric experience. The Blue Lily at iamshaman did nothing for me. But the Blue Lotus from Nepal definitely has something going for it.
I had the same reaction to the hyped up descriptions at iamshaman - especially with the tea and smoke "blends". I was tempted when I read their sale's pitch but always concluded it sounded bogus. Besides, I've already smoked most of the ingredients in the Druid blend and not convinced they've put together something magical.
I also couldn't find anything to corroborate their write-up about Sugundi Root. In fact, one source seemed to suggest it was Indian Sassafrass or Sasspirilla (sp) or something like it. I'm still not sure what they are selling as "sugundi" root but I have to say it had possibilities.
The roots are so hard they twisted the blades in my nut grinder. I cut and shredded it down to something smokable by hand. I felt a nice buzz but can't remember details. I then tried boiling the rest down to an extract with little success. Gave up and never ordered it again. Wish I knew what it really was.
But iamshaman is good for incense and certain herbs. Always well-packaged and promptly shipped. I get a 10% discount and free shipping.
I have very little experience with opiates but everytime I've used blue lotus (Nelumbo Nucifera) petals (even without the wine soak) I've felt a kind of anesthetic high. I remember comparing it to novocaine. The sensation started in the mouth and spread to my brain. I actually had a kind of flashback to the dentist's office when I was a kid. Wish I could do it with the wine, perhaps, I can find some other way to extract the active ingredients.
I'll try to find the equivalent of the UK "Spice" blend. No hurry though. Looking forward to trying saffron and continuing my *experiments* with various other herbs like albizzia. My queque is full.
verne
Posted by liliths on December 12, 2006, at 14:34:53
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 22:38:04
hi Q
thanks for staying in touch. I'm feeling REALLY defeated about everything at the moment. Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to find an atty to take the discimination case. At any rate, I was given the good advice not to file a suit until after my hearing LOL but I'm feeling pretty bad about the whole thing
I'm going to contact someone at the dept of health for some advice - she was out today - I want to know if I have a shot in hell of getting PRN's recommendations to change my meds overturned
I've taken nardil in the past - quite a long time ago - it worked great at first and then sent me into an eating frenzy that only ended when i began cutting myself - went off it after that!! I think I tried parnate too but don't remember much - we're talking probably about 20 years ago
so you're saying that MAOI's are contraindicated with ADD meds? That would definitely rule them out.
would the lamactil possibly work with the wellbutrin?
thanks for thinking of me
namaste,
lilith
> > my biggest worries about practicing are that I already have credentials and skills in areas I'm not capable of using. Hiding in the house instead. I was a graphic designer/digital artist for many years until my career tanked after 9/11. And I'm a Certified Personal Trainer. But not being able to go out, much less market myself, makes obtaining clients a tad difficult LOL
>
>
> Well you seem to have plenty of skills and experience to bring to your new profession liliths.
>
> > now I just need to figure out how I think my meds ought to be changed. I've always done the bulk of my research for my meds - I've been using this board for many, many years now - when it was only a med board - and was shocked after returning from one particular hiatus to find how huge we had become and had ALL these other rooms as well! Simply learning how many of us were out there who don't get 'fixed' by taking that one little advertised pill was tantamount to a transcendent experience. I'll never forget the profound relief that came with not being alone with 'being me' anymore
> >
> > I know I need to keep the focalin xr and the klonopin, but I'm wondering if augmenting the wellbutrin/buspar with lamacil would be advised - or if I shoud drop the wellbutrin OR just the buspar in favor of toally new meds. I have read that lamactil works best as an augment to an AD so I know I'd probably need something. As I've said before, I don't do well on SSRI's and anything with weight gain is a huge no-no for me - nothing will take me down faster than that! One becomes used to meds like focalin. Early in the day, when it's at its peak efficacy, I make myself eat regularly anyway. In the evenings, when it's worn off, I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out.
> >
> > and almost everything I look at seems to have that potential, except for the wellbutrin. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free. I'm going to need to go into my pdoc's office with a whole list of 'possibilities', as well as documentation about why I want to try it. As I said earlier, he has become increasingly resistant to making any changes - laziness? i don't know. But if I have to cut the hydrocodone, I definitely need to consider a different regimen.
>
> A dopamine agonist may be a good place to start if you haven't tried them already? Nardil may also be very effective, especially in combination with Lamictal? There are obviously potential problems with the Focalin and the opiate (but you are planning to drop that anyway?), though I have heard of people combining opiates and stims with MAOIs it's not for the faint hearted. Parnate would probably be better with regards to the ADHD problem, but you have already tried that?
>
> Perhaps Parnate, Lamictal (as augmenter), Lyrica (as a benzo substitute if they try and force you off it?) and low dose Focalin or dopamine antagonist?
>
> I'm not sure. You seem to have a very complicated history and are quite informed yourself. I guess you know the limits of your pdoc best.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on December 12, 2006, at 15:11:03
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 12, 2006, at 14:34:53
>so you're saying that MAOI's are contraindicated with ADD meds? That would definitely rule them out.
They can cause hypertensive crises, but low doses can sometimes be used successfully. Parnate has similar effects to some ADHD meds so it is possible you could do without them, but it doesn't sound worth the risk and disruption to me from what you're describing.
Lamictal could work well with Wellbutrin but word-finding difficulties seem quite common in early treatment and I notice you had that problem already with Wellbutrin alone. Worth trying though and possible substituting the Wellbutrin with another med.
> Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to find an atty to take the discimination case. At any rate, I was given the good advice not to file a suit until after my hearing LOL but I'm feeling pretty bad about the whole thing
I'm going to contact someone at the dept of health for some advice - she was out today - I want to know if I have a shot in hell of getting PRN's recommendations to change my meds overturned
>
>
Looks as though you may have to accept that coming off the hydrocodone is likely if you want the license. There are still the other substitutes we've talked about and dopamine agonists may work well for you.Q
Posted by verne on December 12, 2006, at 15:48:36
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 12, 2006, at 14:34:53
Hi Lilith,
When you write, "I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out." that sounds like me.
I didn't go out for 9 months once - mostly due to anxiety and shame about being a little overweight. I actually ordered food online (not the best variety) and gained even more weight. Overeating and not going out caused more weight gain and so forth. The UPS Driver was my only contact with the outside world.
My excessive sleeping and overeating are classic signs of atypical depression. An MAO Inhibitor is indicated but I have high blood pressure (due to weight gain) and can't risk it. I'm intrigued by the new drug patch Emsam but can't find a doctor willing to prescribe it. I've been diagnosed with PTSD, borderline personality disorder (self injured when I was younger), atypical depression, and a few other things. I'm not bipolar although my last pdoc insisted I was.
When I had reached the high water mark (33 BMI), I installed lots of full spectrum lighting and used a "light box" for a reading lamp. (I have it enclosed in a cube to cut down on the peripheral glare) Anyway, within a few days, I started venturing out for short walks. It was winter with snow on the ground so I felt secure in my parka - no one could see me. I tried to add a block or two on each outing until I was walking a couple miles a day.
But I still didn't lose much weight. I finally tried the low-carb diet and lost about 15lbs in 2 months. I was able to walk 5 miles at a time. But when I tried to donate blood I discovered my blood pressure was high. I then started inderal LA 60mgs which also helped with anxiety.
I've tried many anti-depressants and meds like lamictal in the meantime with very little success. I liked lamictal but gained weight because it made sleeping exquisite. I loved to sleep or nap, day and night. It was the best sleep aid I had ever used. (but not a good thing for atypical depression)
Most of the drugs caused too much agitation (lexapro, abilify) or weight gain. Now I'm back to 30 BMI and afraid to go out anymore. I don't even bother turning on the full spectrum lighting. I just use two weak bulbs in the rooms where I watch tv or use the computer. I barely even read anymore.
Of all the anti-depressants, Cymbalta showed promise and even caused significant weight loss (in one month I lost ten pounds) but it's tricky. One of the cleaner anti-depressants for me except for anaorgasm and extremely hard stools. Had to use Senna and give up sex.
But I ultimately wasn't willing to put up with the side effects and quit cymbalta. I realized I couldn't really think clearly on the stuff either. I tried a little recently (about 20mgs for 3 days) and this time found it too stimulating. I ended up drinking to cope with the agitation - another problem I struggle with.
I haven't kept up with this thread but wanted to mention Emsam as a possibility. Cymbalta may be a long shot. (of course, Emsam is a weak MAO Inhibitor so you couldn't take both)
I also want to say how similar my situation is to yours. Overeating, not going out, ashamed of being overweight, and no motivation.
I'm hoping to get back into meditation (mantra based or centering prayer) and a little yoga or egoscue exercises. I'm starting to walk a little again (winter helps). And turns the lights back on, read, watch less TV, and use the computer less.
I was down to a BMI of 22 last June when I was only taking inderal and klonopin. My doc at the time prescribed klonopin (first benzo for me in several years) and I was swimming for the first time in ten years.
But I started seeing a new pdoc in July and my condition steadily deterioriated. I'm hopeful now that I'm only taking inderal and klonopin again and not seeing the pdoc who thinks I'm bipolar, I'll rediscover the motivation and overcome the fear and shame enough to get out more.
I feel like crap right now but will try to get out for a walk this evening.
verne
Posted by liliths on December 13, 2006, at 7:45:43
In reply to Re: License LONG :), posted by Quintal on December 12, 2006, at 15:11:03
hi Q,
well I've been looking at the dopamine agonists and Mirapex seems to be the only one being used and the side effects don't sound like much fun
as I understand it, Lyrica causes weight gains so that takes it out and if the lamactil causing word find problems, I guess that rules it out too! There really isn't anything I know of like Wellbutrin and while by itself, it never did anything for me, along with everything else, it did seem to help.
it's not 'going off' the hyrdocodone that's the real problem here though I am thoroughly disgusted about the violation of my rights - that another doctor can even dictate what my doctor prescribes is making me insane... but here's what I just wrote in another post:
=========
The mandatory drug tests probably have me the angriest because it means a continued violation of my rights. And they have suggest that if I'm 'allowed' to take klonopin, I not be allowed to drink alcohol. Now I don't drink very much - hardly at all and when I do, I certainly don't take more klonopin. I take the stuff in divided doses. But no one has the right to tell me what I can and cannot do here and it is simply killing me.I have been on this drug regimen for close to 5 years without an problems and here these people come along and get to steal my freedom. I'm going to spend 5 years looking over my shoulder? What if I'm with friends who are smoking pot - how much second hand smoke will have me showing positive for thc? and what if I felt like having a hit? (may be rare but I want the right!) And if they say no alcohol and I have a couple of glasses of wine with friends? And the BIG one - if I am in pain, I am going to take painkillers! that will mean the test will show positive for opiates... so will I lose my license over any or all of these things??
am I'm supposed to live the next 5 years of my life totally abstinent, in fear and in pain? I think not!
=========
also:
=========
the whole thing is sickening. I guess I'll find out today from the woman at the dept of health if I have even the slightest chance - the health law attys told me I don't but I still want to see what the DOH says... and even if I lose and have to comply to get the damn license (which I don't even want anymore - they've destroyed it for me), it's still worth fighting for my rightsI'm not just going to roll over
=========I've been having a lot of trouble finding meds that seem to US approved. Everything that looks good seems to be available only in europe.
Did I leave anything out of what you had suggested?
and what about NARI's?
are they even available here?thanks for your continued help. Right now, it looks like I may end up on the same drugs I'm on now without the hydrocodone... that ought to be fun. I wonder if raising my buspar dose would help as I use that to augment the wellburtin... it does absolutely nothing for my anxiety but does seem to have 'some' anti-depressant effects. Which doesn't mean more will work better.. sigh
as usual, your thoughts are appreciated.
I am looking forward to the oxycontin nasal spray.. I hope that helps. I suspect the kratom may be less useful on a daily basis but perhaps fun every now and then :)
namaste,
lilith> >so you're saying that MAOI's are contraindicated with ADD meds? That would definitely rule them out.
>
> They can cause hypertensive crises, but low doses can sometimes be used successfully. Parnate has similar effects to some ADHD meds so it is possible you could do without them, but it doesn't sound worth the risk and disruption to me from what you're describing.
>
> Lamictal could work well with Wellbutrin but word-finding difficulties seem quite common in early treatment and I notice you had that problem already with Wellbutrin alone. Worth trying though and possible substituting the Wellbutrin with another med.
>
> > Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to find an atty to take the discimination case. At any rate, I was given the good advice not to file a suit until after my hearing LOL but I'm feeling pretty bad about the whole thing
>
> I'm going to contact someone at the dept of health for some advice - she was out today - I want to know if I have a shot in hell of getting PRN's recommendations to change my meds overturned
> >
> >
>
>
> Looks as though you may have to accept that coming off the hydrocodone is likely if you want the license. There are still the other substitutes we've talked about and dopamine agonists may work well for you.
>
> Q
Posted by liliths on December 13, 2006, at 8:16:56
In reply to Atypical Depression » liliths, posted by verne on December 12, 2006, at 15:48:36
hi Verne
I have to tell you, reading your post simply broke my heart. Thank you so much for being willing to share so much of your pain. I know too well what it's like.
Have you ever tried Wellbutrin? It has no weight gain associated with it and in some cases helps control binging.
Have you ever looked into whether you hay have ADD or ADHD? When my pdoc told me he felt strongly about that, I really resisted until I did a lot of research about it's symptoms, particularly in adults and in women. There I was!
I too, have been diagnosed by my therapist (not my pdoc) with PTSD and have also used self-injury to deal with the pain of depression. We may have some things in common. Please feel free to babblemail me if you like and we can discuss this further
In the meantime, take care of yourself and try not to beat yourself up (hey, I could be talking to myself here! :)
the hardest part of losing weight once it's gotten out of control is to have the patience and the fortitude to stick it out.. it DOES take a long time and every slip throws you back. Once you're at your body's natural set point and you can hold it for awhile, it's easier to catch the gain BEFORE it becomes consuming. It's also really important that you consider weight training as you need to put on some muscle - you can gets bands and do simple things at home - even use cans as weights. Muscle requires more energy to burn - meaning more calories. You'll have to stop looking at the scale but your clothes will be telling you that you are losing bodyfat and that is your goal.
But meds can simply make life hell... that's why I cannot take anything with weight gain effects. I end more depressed than before I started the stupid things!
and I agree, anorgasmia sucks too!! lol
namaste,
lilith> Hi Lilith,
>
> When you write, "I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out." that sounds like me.
>
> I didn't go out for 9 months once - mostly due to anxiety and shame about being a little overweight. I actually ordered food online (not the best variety) and gained even more weight. Overeating and not going out caused more weight gain and so forth. The UPS Driver was my only contact with the outside world.
>
> My excessive sleeping and overeating are classic signs of atypical depression. An MAO Inhibitor is indicated but I have high blood pressure (due to weight gain) and can't risk it. I'm intrigued by the new drug patch Emsam but can't find a doctor willing to prescribe it. I've been diagnosed with PTSD, borderline personality disorder (self injured when I was younger), atypical depression, and a few other things. I'm not bipolar although my last pdoc insisted I was.
>
> When I had reached the high water mark (33 BMI), I installed lots of full spectrum lighting and used a "light box" for a reading lamp. (I have it enclosed in a cube to cut down on the peripheral glare) Anyway, within a few days, I started venturing out for short walks. It was winter with snow on the ground so I felt secure in my parka - no one could see me. I tried to add a block or two on each outing until I was walking a couple miles a day.
>
> But I still didn't lose much weight. I finally tried the low-carb diet and lost about 15lbs in 2 months. I was able to walk 5 miles at a time. But when I tried to donate blood I discovered my blood pressure was high. I then started inderal LA 60mgs which also helped with anxiety.
>
> I've tried many anti-depressants and meds like lamictal in the meantime with very little success. I liked lamictal but gained weight because it made sleeping exquisite. I loved to sleep or nap, day and night. It was the best sleep aid I had ever used. (but not a good thing for atypical depression)
>
> Most of the drugs caused too much agitation (lexapro, abilify) or weight gain. Now I'm back to 30 BMI and afraid to go out anymore. I don't even bother turning on the full spectrum lighting. I just use two weak bulbs in the rooms where I watch tv or use the computer. I barely even read anymore.
>
> Of all the anti-depressants, Cymbalta showed promise and even caused significant weight loss (in one month I lost ten pounds) but it's tricky. One of the cleaner anti-depressants for me except for anaorgasm and extremely hard stools. Had to use Senna and give up sex.
>
> But I ultimately wasn't willing to put up with the side effects and quit cymbalta. I realized I couldn't really think clearly on the stuff either. I tried a little recently (about 20mgs for 3 days) and this time found it too stimulating. I ended up drinking to cope with the agitation - another problem I struggle with.
>
> I haven't kept up with this thread but wanted to mention Emsam as a possibility. Cymbalta may be a long shot. (of course, Emsam is a weak MAO Inhibitor so you couldn't take both)
>
> I also want to say how similar my situation is to yours. Overeating, not going out, ashamed of being overweight, and no motivation.
>
> I'm hoping to get back into meditation (mantra based or centering prayer) and a little yoga or egoscue exercises. I'm starting to walk a little again (winter helps). And turns the lights back on, read, watch less TV, and use the computer less.
>
> I was down to a BMI of 22 last June when I was only taking inderal and klonopin. My doc at the time prescribed klonopin (first benzo for me in several years) and I was swimming for the first time in ten years.
>
> But I started seeing a new pdoc in July and my condition steadily deterioriated. I'm hopeful now that I'm only taking inderal and klonopin again and not seeing the pdoc who thinks I'm bipolar, I'll rediscover the motivation and overcome the fear and shame enough to get out more.
>
> I feel like crap right now but will try to get out for a walk this evening.
>
> verne
Posted by liliths on December 14, 2006, at 7:53:53
In reply to Re: License LONG :), posted by Quintal on December 12, 2006, at 15:11:03
Hi Q
just wanted to tell you my toys all came yesterday!
Unfortunately, I'm scheduled for oral surgery in a couple of hours and let's be real - I DO take painkillers for pain and a LOT of them. Will ask the surgeon for a script and ask for something REALLY strong - I only hope he complies. It's the first 48-72 hours I really need something for. Dental work is extremely traumatic on me. Even examinations have me sitting in the chair with tears coursing down my face and I regress to being a child.
no fun!
but I will keep you posted as soon as I figure out how to use this stuff... just opening the bubble wrap - the liquid trust isn't a nasal spray but a liquid - looks like a perfume. I should've been more careful. I 'guess' I can take it orally or perhaps sublingually? I'll have to do some research on it first.
and as you know, I got the sample pack of kratom so I'll have to figure out how to use those as well
will keep you posted on my findings and may try to find an oxycontin nasal spray
hope you are doing well
I'm getting way too comfortable being so miserable!
namaste,
lilith> >so you're saying that MAOI's are contraindicated with ADD meds? That would definitely rule them out.
>
> They can cause hypertensive crises, but low doses can sometimes be used successfully. Parnate has similar effects to some ADHD meds so it is possible you could do without them, but it doesn't sound worth the risk and disruption to me from what you're describing.
>
> Lamictal could work well with Wellbutrin but word-finding difficulties seem quite common in early treatment and I notice you had that problem already with Wellbutrin alone. Worth trying though and possible substituting the Wellbutrin with another med.
>
> > Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to find an atty to take the discimination case. At any rate, I was given the good advice not to file a suit until after my hearing LOL but I'm feeling pretty bad about the whole thing
>
> I'm going to contact someone at the dept of health for some advice - she was out today - I want to know if I have a shot in hell of getting PRN's recommendations to change my meds overturned
> >
> >
>
>
> Looks as though you may have to accept that coming off the hydrocodone is likely if you want the license. There are still the other substitutes we've talked about and dopamine agonists may work well for you.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on December 14, 2006, at 8:34:50
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 14, 2006, at 7:53:53
http://www.chemgasm.com/oxytocin-for-panic-attacks-or-oxytocin-7
Hi Liliths, you bought the Liquid Trust oxytocin spray? I think that is intended for use by business people to spray into the salesroom. You can still place the spray head under a nostril and sort of waft it into your airways - clumsy I know, but it does still work according to the guy on the website above.
An alternative method would be to buy a nasal spray of decongestant like Sudofed or something and empty the contents, clean the bottle and fill with oxytocin liquid and voila! You have an oxytocin nasal spray. Just hope they haven't put fragrance in it or something.
Probably best to wait until you've recovered from the dental surgery before taking the Kratom - it could interact with the extra pain meds, though Kratom is an analgesic in itself.
Good luck with the dental surgery - in fact the oxytocin may be good to calm you in the surgery?
Q
Posted by liliths on December 14, 2006, at 12:52:02
In reply to Oxytocin Spray for Panic Attacks » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 14, 2006, at 8:34:50
Hi Q
I definitely am beginning to believe in some master plan against me LOL
the surgeon only did an evaluation! I have to already be on antibiotics before the surgery and his first available appointment is not until Feb 12! sheesh... my Review Board debacle is a month earlier than that! My dentist was misinformed when they told me this guy would do the eval and then go ahead with a procedure
so I get the pleasure of living with the infection until then - he told me to fill the scripts for antibiotics and ibuprofen (his idea of a pain killer - though he also gave me a script for darvoset for "severe pain" only) if I needed them and to let him know to re-write them by the time the surgery rolls around. Even then it turns out there's not even a guarantee that once he 'opens me up', he won't discover a crack and have to pull the damn thing instead.
in the meantime, I can't find the oxycotin as a nasal spray for sale anywhere on the web! Weird. The Liquid Trust has alcohol in it... I did snort a little and it burned some - I'm not sure whether spraying alcohol up my nose is ok or not. Would you happen to know? I certainly don't want to do any more damage to myself (except the idea of a bullet to the head is beginning to look quite enticing)
thanks for the link. It was interesting
the stupid liquid trust isn't even meant to be sprayed - it's meant to be worn, but except for the alcohol, the only other ingredients listed were distilled water and oxycontin.
sigh.....
thanks for letting me rant
I do appreciate you :)
namaste,
lilith> http://www.chemgasm.com/oxytocin-for-panic-attacks-or-oxytocin-7
>
> Hi Liliths, you bought the Liquid Trust oxytocin spray? I think that is intended for use by business people to spray into the salesroom. You can still place the spray head under a nostril and sort of waft it into your airways - clumsy I know, but it does still work according to the guy on the website above.
>
> An alternative method would be to buy a nasal spray of decongestant like Sudofed or something and empty the contents, clean the bottle and fill with oxytocin liquid and voila! You have an oxytocin nasal spray. Just hope they haven't put fragrance in it or something.
>
> Probably best to wait until you've recovered from the dental surgery before taking the Kratom - it could interact with the extra pain meds, though Kratom is an analgesic in itself.
>
> Good luck with the dental surgery - in fact the oxytocin may be good to calm you in the surgery?
>
> Q
Posted by EERRIICC on December 14, 2006, at 16:42:01
In reply to Re: Oxytocin Spray for Panic Attacks » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 14, 2006, at 12:52:02
I have been curious about Oxytocin spray for some time. I have simply kept putting off buying it. It is relatively hard to find unless you are considering a sex change and see it as an essential hormone...
Posted by EERRIICC on December 14, 2006, at 16:42:12
In reply to Re: Oxytocin Spray for Panic Attacks » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 14, 2006, at 12:52:02
I have been curious about Oxytocin spray for some time. I have simply kept putting off buying it. It is relatively hard to find unless you are considering a sex change and see it as an essential hormone...
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