![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 61 to 85 of 222. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2009, at 9:43:59
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy, posted by twinleaf on February 25, 2009, at 0:05:18
> criticisms, put-downs and insults can be carefully crafted so that they pass the civility rules. About a year ago, one poster, well-known for doing this from time to time, was given a PCB- a very rare occurence for her. She replied that she had spent ONE HOUR carefully trying to craft her (hurtful) message so that it would pass the civility rules. She had no awareness, seemingly, that it would be far better not to be insulting people- her only concern appeared to be that she had not been quite clever enough to avoid a civility warning.
>
> In my opinion, every deputy has, at times, been more hurtful and insulting here than I have ever been.Please don't post anything that could lead others (posters or deputies) to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: According to the formula:
duration of previous block: 4 weeks
period of time since previous block: 1 week
severity: 2 (default) + 1 (uncivil toward particular individual or group) = 3
block length = 11.67 rounded = 12 weeks
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 9:47:50
In reply to Can those respond, remove my name, on this line, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 9:31:30
I think that on the face of what was written on this thread alone, without any inferences being made, this could count as a vortex.
It's a shame he's unwilling to step forward when at his request as well as our own good judgment we step back. Over and over again he supports us off board and promises to show that support on board.
He's not a ghost. But I wish he would keep his promises to the deputies.
What is, is. I can fight it and do no good but to hurt myself. I can try to work with what I've got and make the best of it. Or I can quit.
I care about Dr. Bob, and I care about Babble, and about the only reason I would quit is if I thought the majority of Babblers believed what was written about me in this thread. Because in that case, the last nearly eight years of my life when I have tried to forge relationships and be of service here would have been an utter waste of my time and pain.
I'm way too stubborn to quit otherwise.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2009, at 12:28:19
In reply to Dr Bob asks that deputies step away from vortices, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 9:47:50
> I think that on the face of what was written on this thread alone, without any inferences being made, this could count as a vortex.
>
> It's a shame he's unwilling to step forward when at his request as well as our own good judgment we step back. Over and over again he supports us off board and promises to show that support on board.
>
> He's not a ghost. But I wish he would keep his promises to the deputies.
>
> What is, is. I can fight it and do no good but to hurt myself. I can try to work with what I've got and make the best of it. Or I can quit.
>
> I care about Dr. Bob, and I care about Babble, and about the only reason I would quit is if I thought the majority of Babblers believed what was written about me in this thread. Because in that case, the last nearly eight years of my life when I have tried to forge relationships and be of service here would have been an utter waste of my time and pain.
>
> I'm way too stubborn to quit otherwise.
>Dinah,
You wrote,[...a vortex...]
Could you post here what is entailed in designating as per the administration here a thread as being a vortex? If you could , then I could have the oppoprtunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 12:42:28
In reply to Dr Bob asks that deputies step away from vortices, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 9:47:50
Well I know at least for me I am not talking about any deputy in particular.
The issue of there is just too much for just few deputies to handle the board, is what I am talking about.
Because of this, the rules are not applied to everyone, way too many things are missed, which makes some members feel things are unfair.
I don't think anyone was talking about you DInah, specifically, I could be wrong, I just didn't notice. I believe it is more about what is happening in regards to the rules. Deputies are part of that but only because they are the enforcers.
I say we either need more deputies to help with the work, or we need to do away with the rules since they are only applied sporadically.(usuallyby no fault of the deputies)
Posted by fayeroe on February 25, 2009, at 12:50:57
In reply to Re: facing realities... » twinleaf, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 20:06:32
**We can explain till we are blue in the face, but Dr. BOb will not even respond in most cases, or I should say, responds in a unsatisfactory way. So people are more likely to just throw their arms up in disgust or they just give up. This has been the same story over and over again.**
I wanted to comment on your statement of "people aremore likely to just throw their arms up in disgust or they just give up."
In some ways giving up here can mean a giving up on oneself. You join with the anticipation that you've found a home and a safe place to be online.We are trusting our instincts on that one.
For some of us, it just ain't happening. If we've been here for a long time, the judging of one's capacity to pick the right place for healing comes into place. 1. Disappointment 2. Pain 3. Rejection 4. Disinterest 5. Attacked.
The few things that I listed are in no particular order. And I am certain that we could add to the list.
I just wanted to point out that along with the disappointment in Babble, there could be a tremendous letdown when we realize that we have also failed ourselves.
I'm rambling from a very short and sick night..so if I'm not making sense..you know why.:-) But I do know what "I" mean. :-0)
Posted by fayeroe on February 25, 2009, at 13:00:19
In reply to Re: facing realities...Happy » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on February 25, 2009, at 7:13:06
>
> > And apparently I have not succeeded in my efforts to go far beyond civility to reflect the caring and respect I feel. So it's probably best for me to retire from the conversation at this point.
>
> I keep seeing this. Over and over. Discuss and retreat when it becomes uncomfortable. There is no resolution, there is no defensible answer to the charges made.See, this is one of the things here that bother me the most..the discussion and then the "I'm out of here for now" post. It never fails (to me) that when something is being discussed, eventually it will end and the posters are left holding a bag full of nothing.
>
> My therapist is right - this is not a healthy environment. That is her concern for me.I don't know if my Post was counted but my Pdoc really doesn't want me here. He researched and decided that the blocks (and the lengths) and the uneven administration of the civility "problems" were cause enough for him to say "stay away". I didn't take him one printout. He did this all by himself.
>
> pc
>
>
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 13:06:50
In reply to Dr Bob asks that deputies step away from vortices, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 9:47:50
> I think that on the face of what was written on this thread alone, without any inferences being made, this could count as a vortex.
>
I don't think a vortex is a positive term to describe this thread. I really believe that the intent from everyone especially twinleaf, is to make this place better.> It's a shame he's unwilling to step forward when at his request as well as our own good judgment we step back. Over and over again he supports us off board and promises to show that support on board.
I agree, and this has happened time and time again. It is not fair for the deputies to have to carry "His" load or a load that is way too heavy for only a few deputies.
>
> He's not a ghost. But I wish he would keep his promises to the deputies.
> I care about Dr. Bob, and I care about Babble, and about the only reason I would quit is if I thought the majority of Babblers believed what was written about me in this thread.I just wanted to say, I know you feel this way, but if this thread gets bogged down with support for you (which would be fine in another thread) the message that this thread started with will be lost. I don't believe anyone has asked you to quit or anything like that.
Because in that case, the last nearly eight years of my life when I have tried to forge relationships and be of service here would have been an utter waste of my time and pain.
This reminds me of what my first T told me once (he did have SOME good after all) about marriage. All marriages end badly, whether through death or divorce. But you can't judge the quality of the marriage based on the last months alone. The end doesn't have to flavor the entire relationship one way or another.
I am sure nobody is asking you to quit, most people love you here. My part is that there shouldn't be rules, if they can't be applied at a more consistent manner. Does that make sense?
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 13:36:33
In reply to Re: Dr Bob asks that deputies step away from vortices » Dinah, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 13:10:39
I don't foresee this thread being bogged down with support for me or any other deputy.
I've said on more than one occasion that at times I feel absolutely no ability to respond in any helpful way. I have often tried and I have nearly always regretted trying, because the result does not seem appreciably different than if I had not tried. But I make myself more vulnerable.
Clearly I am unable to be helpful in some situations, and should take a more Boblike approach.
I don't think continuing would help the situation. I am in distress. And Dr. Bob has asked that I not continue.
Vortex is his word, not ours. It's not a negative word any more than trigger is.
Are you likely to change your view of the situation because I do continue? Am I likely to take the view of others about my own actions?
Unless others can convince me that my continuing the discussion will be helpful for Babble, I must decline. And I must ask that I not be pressured to continue.
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 14:02:43
In reply to Re: Dr Bob asks that deputies step away from vortices, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 13:36:33
> I've said on more than one occasion that at times I feel absolutely no ability to respond in any helpful way. I have often tried and I have nearly always regretted trying, because the result does not seem appreciably different than if I had not tried. But I make myself more vulnerable.You should do what is best for you, as always. I do think you could be helpful, but not at the expense of your own health if you are feeling this way.
> Clearly I am unable to be helpful in some situations, and should take a more Boblike approach.Stepping away because of your health is the right thing to do, but I wouldn't consider that being the Bob approach.
>
> I don't think continuing would help the situation. I am in distress. And Dr. Bob has asked that I not continue.Not just you, but all the deputies, right? So it it fair to conclude that this discussion is over because it is going to fall on death ears?
>
> Vortex is his word, not ours. It's not a negative word any more than trigger is.I understand it is his word, but I don't feel it is exactly positive to those who have posted on this thread. With this word being the one used to describe this thread, I am sure my voice is not going to be heard, I should walk away. Not because of my mental health, not because I don't care, but because like I said before, it will probably be a waste of time since there is "no conversation" taking place to help this place become better. That message is coming across LOUD AND CLEAR. IGNORE THE VORTEX (which is us babblers messages you know.)
>
> Are you likely to change your view of the situation because I do continue? Am I likely to take the view of others about my own actions?I am not sure why you are taking this thread personally? I just don't get it at all, this thread is NOT about you, this is about discussing the way the rules are handled on this site and the way it is not working.
>
> Unless others can convince me that my continuing the discussion will be helpful for Babble, I must decline. And I must ask that I not be pressured to continue.Who is pressuring you? I didn't get that impression at all.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 15:04:57
In reply to Re: Dr Bob asks that deputies step away from vortices » Dinah, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 14:02:43
My health is fine, thank you.
If I were to feel that I could contribute something useful, I would not be averse to continuing. Particularly if the discussion proceeded in such a way that Dr. Bob would approve of my participation. I thought seldomseen had an excellent idea of how to proceed with a constructive dialogue, but no one responded to her suggestion.
I attempted myself to address a specific concern of yours, even if I didn't think it through as carefully as I might wish, but also got no response.
But in the more general discussions of Administrative shortcomings, I don't think I can offer much more than I've already offered.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 15:37:13
In reply to Lou's request for what designates-dwndwndwn? » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2009, at 12:28:19
I think Dr. Bob could best answer that.
Posted by BayLeaf on February 25, 2009, at 17:06:46
In reply to Dr Bob asks that deputies step away from vortices, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 9:47:50
Or was that block the entire conversation?
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 17:45:46
In reply to Does Bob address the vortices? Or does no one?, posted by BayLeaf on February 25, 2009, at 17:06:46
I daresay a deputy who does not find something a vortex at any given time may address it.
But the board is Dr. Bob's responsibility ultimately. What he does is up to him, and should be taken up with him. We help as best we can. But it's not our board. It's his.
Posted by muffled on February 25, 2009, at 18:11:47
In reply to Re: Does Bob address the vortices? Or does no one? » BayLeaf, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2009, at 17:45:46
Dr. Bob is proving himself to be a lousy administrator.
This is NOT new.
That is why I am not here. Long blocks and Bobs lack of care.
I really hate that this place can't work for me.
Your all good people.Don't get sucked into Bobs web.
He may give a crap, but not from what I've seen.
Actions speak louder than words in my book.Its OK if ai am to be blocked.
I shouldn't be here anyways.
And y'know what, even though I am removed, the block will still sting.
Imagine how it stings, GORES one who is deeply involved?
Or the friends of the blocked one?Whatever happened to Alex? Is she forever blocked?
LOL< I got great admiration for that gal!
Take care all.
Muffled
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 19:52:59
In reply to Re: facing realities... » HappyChaiTea, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2009, at 22:42:55
> As far as I know there is absolutely no problem with doing what you just described.
>
Okay, I am back from classes, tired, but I don't know what exactly you are talking about in the above.
I did write an earlier response but the but something happened and I lost the response, and right now I am too tired to respond. I will try later..
> There is certainly room to discuss the on board/off board problem. Should actions that involve Babble but did not occur on Babble be covered by civility guidelines? Is it better to allow the resulting disagreements to be discussed on babble in the hopes that a resolution can be reached? Or would it be better to ask posters who have an off board disagreement to work it out off board? Or would it be better to allow the discussions, but only with full fact disclosure?
>
> For example, if one poster has a problem with another poster resulting from an off board disagreement, should babble policy be
>
> a) to allow the one poster to speak of an issue with a "friend" who....
>
> b) to ask posters to please not bring off board disagreements to the board?
>
> c) to allow the poster to speak of the issue, as long as they follow babble rules, and as long as they disclose that the "friend" is a fellow babbler so that third parties won't accidentally be uncivil or drawn into a discussion that may involve two people they care about
>
> And of course there are likely other possibilities.
>
> If it is allowed to discuss it on board, should both parties be allowed to give their version of the facts so that the usual on board transparency would occur? What if the facts aren't just facts but interpretations and judgments?
>
> I think this is a valid area for Admin discussion, although of course it's best to use hypotheticals.
>
> And it is *always* ok for a poster to apologize to another for anything they think they need to apologize for.
>
Posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 19:58:22
In reply to ROFL!, posted by muffled on February 25, 2009, at 18:11:47
I know you are hurting, and I hope you are okay, I know you gave it your best because you do care about Babble. I have been in this same situation as you. (((Twinleaf)))
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 8:56:18
In reply to IS DR BOB REAL or JUST A GHOST?, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 25, 2009, at 9:13:15
> HELLO DR> BOB??????????????????????? ARE YOU LISTENING?????????
I don't have much time right now, but I'm listening. I'm also wondering if I trigger some of you by being absent. Twinleaf mentioned emotionally unfair and abusive families of origin at the beginning of this thread.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 26, 2009, at 9:09:54
In reply to Re: GHOSTS, posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 8:56:18
> > HELLO DR> BOB??????????????????????? ARE YOU LISTENING?????????
>
> I don't have much time right now, but I'm listening. I'm also wondering if I trigger some of you by being absent. Twinleaf mentioned emotionally unfair and abusive families of origin at the beginning of this thread.
>
> Bob
Mr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...I don't have much time...being absent...Twinleaf mentioned emotionally unfair and abusive...]
I am unsure as to why you have included what Twinleaf posted at the beginnung of this thread. If you could post here some more to your reason for including that, then I could have the opportunity to understand your rationale for such and respond accordingly.
In,[...I don't have much time...] could you be willing to have dialog here with me to discuss the possibility of you willing to turn over of the forum to someone that does have a lot of time? I am suggesting that you transfer the forum to, let's say, another psychiatrist from perhaps the U of Chicago that could have the same authority as you in moderating the forum.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 9:13:03
In reply to sorry, posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 9:12:10
Posted by muffled on February 26, 2009, at 10:11:40
In reply to Re: GHOSTS, posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 8:56:18
> > HELLO DR> BOB??????????????????????? ARE YOU LISTENING?????????
>
> I don't have much time right now, but I'm listening. I'm also wondering if I trigger some of you by being absent. Twinleaf mentioned emotionally unfair and abusive families of origin at the beginning of this thread.
>
> BobYa you never have time.
You sure don't trigger this one by being absent.
Who cares.
I get triggered cuz I hate to see people who just trying to help get jerked around by someone who should know better.
Its an uneven power differential and I think it being abused.
And ya, it IS abusive when somoene you hold in esteem lies to you, and doesn't help you when you being hurt.
Who just mysteriously not there, even though he said he'd be.
Who keeps saying, I am coming but never does.Hmmmm.
Sh*t anyways, I best move on.
I just care too much and I just can't stand it.
I can't watch.
I got to go.
Just not my style to walk away from my friends.
Where I grew up we allus watched each others backs.
Safer that way.
I can't do that here, I have tried.
I don't know how to not get hurt by this cept to walk away.Not that this has any impact, and maybe you are trying Bob, it just sure doesn't seem like it to me though. But I wish you would get some help with this site. Ya technicalwise, site works great, you good at that, but the more social/admin/human stuff, for whatever reason, you don't get it, and I don't know that you ever will. And thats OK. I just wish you'd accept this and let someone external help you with this site. I can't see the forest for the trees, maybe you can't either. I just dunno.
Got to go.Sorry.
Best wishes to all.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 10:28:22
In reply to empty words » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on February 26, 2009, at 10:11:40
> You sure don't trigger this one by being absent.
> And ya, it IS abusive when somoene you hold in esteem ... doesn't help you when you being hurt.
> Who just mysteriously not there, even though he said he'd be.
> Who keeps saying, I am coming but never does.
>
> Hmmmm.Ya, hmmmm.
Bob
Posted by muffled on February 26, 2009, at 10:43:40
In reply to Re: GHOSTS, posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 10:28:22
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 11:03:34
In reply to Re: facing realities..., posted by HappyChaiTea on February 24, 2009, at 22:23:15
> My psychoanalyst ... has now suggested that my mental health would be better served by not participating here
>
> twinleaf> my Pdoc really doesn't want me here.
>
> fayeroe> my analyst doesn't give me advise either except to suggest that it might be best not to post here
>
> Zeba> My therapist does not want me posting and participating here.
>
> pc> My T is one who doesn't want me on here
>
> HappyChaiTea> he told me to stay away from Babble
>
> BaySo there's a subgroup of you who stay despite professional advice to leave.
> My psychoanalyst ... feels that the present Babble system ... replicates emotionally unfair and abusive families of origin too closely to be healthy.
> We don't really know anyone here as well as we think we do, and our hopes and desires may fill in the gaps too much, and thus set us up for rejection and disappointment.
>
> twinleafMaybe you stay because of hopes and desires you have.
> All of these blocks, while appropriate under the present guidelines, were the result of my standing up for a principle I believed in
But maybe some hopes and desires are likely to be frustrated here. For example, because I might also stand up for a principle I believe in -- and I have more power here.
You may find it less frustrating if you adjust your hopes and desires. I know that's easier said than done. And you may not even want to do that. And even if you do, you may not know in what direction to do so.
> we can talk with I statements and all that,(the babble way)
>
> They can improve their communications skills.Certainly one option, though it may not feel very exciting, is to work on improving I-statement skills.
Bob
Posted by muffled on February 26, 2009, at 11:13:18
In reply to Re: GHOSTS, posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 10:28:22
> > You sure don't trigger this one by being absent.
>
> > And ya, it IS abusive when somoene you hold in esteem ... doesn't help you when you being hurt.
> > Who just mysteriously not there, even though he said he'd be.
> > Who keeps saying, I am coming but never does.
> >
> > Hmmmm.
>
> Ya, hmmmm.
>
> Bob*Perhaps I should clarify...
I do appreciate what seems to come across as a sense of humour from Bob. I enjoy humour, I think it is huge.
So I was laffing at myself cuz ya I kinda knew I was talking myself into a box but posted anyways cuz ya it WAS funny!
I also laff at the short response. Well done.
I am not angry, its so hard to express oneself on just words.There seems to be something likable about Bob, but that may just be due to his position of power here. Y'know, old habit of keeping oneself safe by keeping in good favor of the one who has the power to hurt you....
I dunno. Neither here nor there, just vaguely curious.Primarily the reason for this post, is to indicate, that yes, I do seem to have an aspect of me that does enjoy Bob, BUT, the part he <didn't> cut and paste was the part about how for me, in my perception, the BIGGER problem for me is seeing others(oh heck, I will just say it) the deputies get hurt. I was here for that whole process and it just sticks in my craw very badly as an injustice that doesn't need to be and shouldn't be. And yes, there is some guilt in there as well, because those kind posters who bravely and generously stepped up to do the job, and I didn't. I was suspicious (it turns our justifiably...)of Bobs motives. But I still feel guilty cuz I bailed. I bailed on fellow babblers and on deps. I wimped out. Thats not usu my way.
Hmmmm again, ya, I guess I only now, upon writing this, realize how bad I have felt bout my not strpping up to ther plate :(
So I suppose that guilt is showing in my somewhat rabid support of the deps.
So, its not so much that I really give a crap bout Bob (sorry dude, like you care anyways, NOT), its more my own selfish guilt, and my defense of those who have been IMHO wronged.
Just to be clear, its also the blocks I have huge issue with....
Ya, and bmail....
Sigh.
I'll shut up now.
Thanks for letting me say my piece and listening to me if you got this far anyone.
I gotta think now, cuz some of this is new to me.
TGC
M
Posted by fayeroe on February 26, 2009, at 11:19:55
In reply to Re: facing realities..., posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2009, at 11:03:34
"So there's a subgroup of you who stay despite professional advice to leave."
I stay because I have friends here and I also stay because I see people being hurt and I am willing to tilt against your windmills when I see injustice. I actually am not here for you or your advice. I have very little invested in this site (I've said that before) because I don't trust your administrative skills.
My Pdoc knows my feelings about the friends here. He was fine with it until he came here and followed some threads from start to finish. He is concerned about administration also.
Pat
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