![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 222. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by twinleaf on February 21, 2009, at 15:46:43
I think my block is up today. During the past month, I appreciate more than I can say the supportive and understanding messages which so many of you expressed here over the past month- each message different, and each very important to me- Sigismund, Partly Cloudy, Annie Rose, fayeroe, Witti, stellabystarlight, SSSS (now Happy TC). The three blocks that I received, while personally painful to me, were fair in accordance with the civility guidelines as they are currently administered.
If I could carve out a little space here in which I would not immediately be blocked again- a space in which we could discuss the larger implications of what happened to me and Happy TC, to name only the most recently blocked posters, I think it could be helpful in making Babble the very best it can be. I am asking Dr. Bob and the deputies to withhold any civility actions on this thread while they consider what I have to say.
My psychoanalyst, who had until now shown minimal, or at most a slightly bemused interest in Babble, has now suggested that my mental health would be better served by not participating here, just as Happy TC's therapist has done. His reasons were that, as the civility guidelines are now set up, the administrators wield inordinate social and emotional power over the community of posters. He likened this situation to a dysfunctional family, in which "parents" can tell "children", that, even though someone has hurt or mistreated them, they will be the sole ones punished for saying so. The person who has caused the hurt and pain either suffers no consequences, or a relatively mild one, such as a PBC. An insulting comment about oneself moves into the Archives, readily available to anyone who wants to find it, while our silent and unknown protests go unheard and unresponded to in the notification process, like a stone thrown silently into a bottomless well. My psychoanalyst, who is extremely experienced and sophisticated, feels that the present Babble system- it was not like this a few years ago- now replicates emotionally unfair and abusive families of origin too closely to be healthy. If two fine therapists are saying this, I think it would be very reasonable for Dr. Bob to give this important topic his full consideration.
Posters who get blocked are hurt by the process, even though we know the deputies are only carrying out their responsibilities, and do not have any wish to hurt us. It's inherent in the process- Happy TC got hurt, and I did too. One's sense of community, trust and emotional freedom, in relation to Babble, is permanently diminished when you start getting blocked. I know I will never again feel the security and freedom to share so many intimate things, and to just have fun- the way I once did.
On a related topic, Dr. Bob points out that the Psychology Board is not psychotherapy. I respectfully disagree. Posters there are continuously offering support and encouragement to help others deal with the hardest issues in therapy, and from time to time, they offer very sophisticated and helpful interpretations (not to mention fascinating dream interpretations!). Posters often do trial runs on the Psychology Board before gaining the courage to deal with issues in actual therapy sessions, and are almost invariably glad for the help they received here. Knowing that this is so helps us all to understand that our relationships with Babble are heightened and intensified-as are our therapy relationships. Whether we would like it to be so or not, transference issues are in play here. By implication, hurt, misunderstanding and rejection are intensified also. I believe this is an additional reason for Dr. Bob and the deputies to have a very thoughtful discussion about the effects of the administration guidelines upon the emotional well-being of participating posters.
I hope that others here will find these issues worth thinking about and discussing, as I do.
Posted by Deneb on February 21, 2009, at 17:04:21
In reply to a new beginning..., posted by twinleaf on February 21, 2009, at 15:46:43
I've been blocked many times in the past, I still love this place.
I think it doesn't matter if the person is emotionally hurting or not or even if others are being uncivil towards him or her. If the person is uncivil they will still be blocked. It's not personal, just the rules, as my pdoc says. Two wrongs don't make a right as Dr. Bob says. :-)
When you see something uncivil, the best thing to do is to notify admin. Sometimes they will act and somethings they won't. It all depends if they consider it uncivil or not. Don't feel bad if they don't, sometimes our emotions run high and we can become sensitive to things others might not find uncivil.
I hope you will stay and participate twinleaf. You're a valuable member of this community. :-)
Posted by Phillipa on February 21, 2009, at 18:05:58
In reply to Re: a new beginning..., posted by Deneb on February 21, 2009, at 17:04:21
What about the activily suicidal poster who posted under another name obviously hurting. Person posted a drug plan for suicide for themselve on meds and was block should someone who is activiely suicidal with a plan they spelled out be blocked . Yes they used a different name then one registered under and I guess the way they were going to do it which was xxx out. Obviously this person is hurting or we don't know the details. Phillipa
Posted by Zeba on February 22, 2009, at 0:49:39
In reply to a new beginning..., posted by twinleaf on February 21, 2009, at 15:46:43
twinleaf
I really do not post anymore and maybe once per month look at Administration. I had the same advice from my psychoanalyst--stay off of Psychobabble. So, for the most part, I do just that.
I am doing much better after therapy three times per week and am no longer on an antidepressant for the past couple of months. I am doing fine in that department.
I have some cognitive impairments from ECT, but I am doing well all things considered--very busy with work, friends, and family.
I hope you are doing well with your psychoanalyst. I miss my old therapist from Menninger, but the guy I see now is good.
Take care.
Zeba (used to be Ozland)
Posted by seldomseen on February 22, 2009, at 9:32:51
In reply to a new beginning..., posted by twinleaf on February 21, 2009, at 15:46:43
***I hope, too, that we can carve out a space here to discuss this matter openly. I think you bring up some key points that will certainly get the discussion going. I respect your courage (in so many areas). These are simply my thoughts on the points you brought up.***
"His reasons were that, as the civility guidelines are now set up, the administrators wield inordinate social and emotional power over the community of posters. He likened this situation to a dysfunctional family, in which "parents" can tell "children", that, even though someone has hurt or mistreated them, they will be the sole ones punished for saying so."
***Though I often refer to babble as a family, I do not see the administrators as parents and I do not see myself as a child. To me, using the illustration of posters as children eliminates the element of choice. Children usually have no choice in the way they may behave, express themselves or respond. However, I think as adult posters we certainly do have that choice.***
"The person who has caused the hurt and pain either suffers no consequences, or a relatively mild one, such as a PBC. An insulting comment about oneself moves into the Archives, readily available to anyone who wants to find it, while our silent and unknown protests go unheard and unresponded to in the notification process, like a stone thrown silently into a bottomless well."
***I don't know exactly how I feel about the notification system either. I know it's intent was to (1) relieve the burden of posters feeling as though they had to respond to something hurtful (2) help the deputies monitor the boards and (3) let us have some say in what we think is outside of the civility rules. I don't know if that system is working or not.****
"Posters who get blocked are hurt by the process, even though we know the deputies are only carrying out their responsibilities, and do not have any wish to hurt us. It's inherent in the process- Happy TC got hurt, and I did too. One's sense of community, trust and emotional freedom, in relation to Babble, is permanently diminished when you start getting blocked. I know I will never again feel the security and freedom to share so many intimate things, and to just have fun- the way I once did."
***I agree, there does seem to be something inherently hurtful in the whole blocking process. What I think, and have always thought, is that the escalation of block length is especially of little merit. If the blocks were truly designed to be a cooling off period and not punitive, then why the escalation? In any case, I can personally offer no alternative to blocks, as repeated violations of the civility rules, I think, have the potential to threaten other posters freedom and sense of safety on the board. So I guess the question comes down to balancing the individual's level of freedom versus the community's sense of safety. As I said, I can offer no other alternative.*****
"On a related topic, Dr. Bob points out that the Psychology Board is not psychotherapy. I respectfully disagree. Posters there are continuously offering support and encouragement to help others deal with the hardest issues in therapy, and from time to time, they offer very sophisticated and helpful interpretations (not to mention fascinating dream interpretations!)."
***I post a lot on the psychology board and have received a tremendous amount of insight from the posters there. I will maintain, however, that board is not and should never be considered psychotherapy. The posters (including me), as much I respect and love them all, are not trained professionals, and although this rarely happens, there is a potential for much harm if one views that board as psychotherapy. Speaking solely for myself, as much as I try to neutralize my own self in replying to a post, I have not had the training to do so. I'm sure, that I unwittingly bring my own issues to the floor and am in no way the blank slate that trained professionals can provide in a truly therpeutic setting.***
"Whether we would like it to be so or not, transference issues are in play here. By implication, hurt, misunderstanding and rejection are intensified also. I believe this is an additional reason for Dr. Bob and the deputies to have a very thoughtful discussion about the effects of the administration guidelines upon the emotional well-being of participating posters."
*** I'm afraid I have to go back to the notion that I think this board is not designed to manage, handle or accomodate those kids of issues as it is, in and of itself, not a therapeutic frame. On the other hand, I think one could argue that the civility rules could be as they are specifically to minimize those kinds of hurtful interactions among posters. The question I think is how do achieve balance between the needs of the community as a whole, and the individual poster?****
Seldom
Posted by seldomseen on February 22, 2009, at 10:16:34
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » twinleaf, posted by seldomseen on February 22, 2009, at 9:32:51
It's probably riddled with problems, but at least it's an alternative.
So let's say that a poster is having a hard time with the civility rules. They had gotten several PBCs in a short amount of time etc...
Instead of progressing directly to a block, what if we designated a "reader" or a "civility buddy" to that poster for a defined amount of time. All their posts, bmails etc.. could be read prior to posting on babble, but they would still be able to post and participate. The notion of a civility buddy is already suggested in some instances.
Of course, this would depend on the availability and willingness of posters to be readers, and might result in a whole host of new problems, but it's an idea.
I'm putting it out there.
Seldom.
Posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2009, at 10:45:25
In reply to Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by seldomseen on February 22, 2009, at 10:16:34
I see different countries and different time zones and schedules as being a potential problem. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2009, at 12:20:28
In reply to Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by seldomseen on February 22, 2009, at 10:16:34
Dr. Bob has suggested this in the past, mandatory civility buddies in place of blocks.
At the time, it wasn't met with a lot of interest. But perhaps it's time to bring it up again.
Posted by garnet71 on February 22, 2009, at 13:14:27
In reply to a new beginning..., posted by twinleaf on February 21, 2009, at 15:46:43
Wow, Twinleaf, that was a very articulate and thoughtful assessment. You are a very focused writer, and you seem like you have a really good head on your shoulders.
I agree with what SeldomSeen has said--maintaining a balance through moderation is perhaps the key.
While it is objective to say, for example, you shouldn't criticize the person and instead, criticise the concept (while trying to remain constructive); in doing so, determining whether or not someone is acting "uncivil" ends up being subjective some of the time. What I don't understand is the stance towards political discussions here, but it is a common attitude in the U.S. If you have certain beliefs about politics in terms of policy/international relations, discussing them is nothing against any other person who disagrees; one is criticizing the policy--not the individual person. There are so many angles from which to structure our government policies, and censorship of such things is very dangerous. Not that this forum would have an impact, but it is a hugely important ideal by virtue itself. Political discourse should be encouraged in all forms-in all places-at all times. See, that's my subjective opinion. That's a peeve of mine about the civic nature of the U.S. We are just harming ourselves--our society-with creating a taboo in discussing politics--big time. Political discourse is no different, in my view, with agreeing or disagreeing about what medications or therapies to use. Many of us criticize therapies and medications--in doing so, we are not criticizing the person who thinks such things are right for them.
We all form our morals, beliefs, opinions based upon our education, experience, and cognitive types; that in itself leads to subjectivity. Moderators, while seemingly trying to remain objective and non-partial, also derive their conclusions from what I just stated.
There are also forum dynamics to contend with, similar to what you'd find in the workplace and other groups. I've seen some forum drama here, but it's to be expected. I do think people can hurt others in internet forums through being passive agressive and via ambient means--and it probably goes unnoticed by moderators. This, in my opinion, is worse than someone saying something 'mean' to another, partly because what is done is unnoticed by those other than the person being hurt. It can lead to feelings of powerlessness and isolation.
I don't like the idea of censorship, but I don't know the alternative. I just wanted to let you know that was a great post and to wish you well for your new beginning.
Cheers
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 14:55:18
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » twinleaf, posted by Zeba on February 22, 2009, at 0:49:39
Hi Zeba! It's so nice to hear from you. Like you, I am also in three-times-a-week therapy now; it's wonderful to hear that things are going so well for you. I also especially like the every-other-day format- its very intensive, but not as overwhelming as four or five days a week can be. You get to step back on those "free days" and see that you are actually getting somewhere!
I always feel so bad for you about the cognitive problems that occurred because of the ECT. I know they are the kind that only show up on sensitive neuropsychological testing, but still, it's just a shame. I hope you will find them slowly but surely melting away as you go on living fully and using your fine brain.
I think you mentioned some time ago that you were taking Parnate- how encouraging if you are finding that you no longer have to!
I also appreciate your mentioning that your therapist also did not want you to participate in Babble. When therapists, particularly analytically-trained ones, say this, I think it is extremely important. Mine has never given me a single bit of advice or direction about anything in my life, other than this.
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:03:55
In reply to Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by seldomseen on February 22, 2009, at 10:16:34
I appreciate all of your thoughtful responses, and creative ideas. I actually agree with almost everything you have said- that it's important to balance the needs of the one and the many, that therapy is not supposed to occur here, and that escalating time-length for blocks appears to have a punitive aspect to it. I was just exploring, from my own experiences, what it feels like to have gone from a poster in good standing from 2002 to 2008 (not even a PCB) to someone who has been blocked three times within six months. All of these blocks, while appropriate under the present guidelines, were the result of my standing up for a principle I believed in- either the right to support and offer understanding and background for another poster who was blocked while in a personal crisis, or the right to protest publicly when I have been insulted or put down publicly. A "civility buddy" would probably not be able to help very much in these situations, other than to tell me not to express these views. Having participated in Babble for such a long time, I feel that, for posters like me, the problem is that the civility guidelines are now being administered in a way that is much more stringent and severe than they were a few years ago. If you look through a bit of the Psychology archives from several years ago, I think you'll see what I mean. There was a warmth and flexibility then which is no longer present. PCBs and blocks were much rarer, and were given for outright hostile attacks and extremely inappropriate language- things everyone felt were appropriate and fair. This is a very long way from one of my recent blocks, which was given because, in urging understanding and compassion for SSSS (now Happy CT), I quoted her as saying that she had stresses in her personal life which included receiving a "hurtful e-mail from a friend." My block was given because quoting Happy in that manner might lead the author of the offensive e-mail to feel put down. I do not participate in chat, babble-mail or e-mail with anyone here, and only realized later that the person who wrote Happy the hurtful e-mail was probably a fellow babbler, and that others may have known who the person was. To me, while my block may have been strictly speaking fair, it completely overlooked the fact that I didn't know who she was, didn't mean her any harm whatsoever, and only used the fact of her e-mail to marshall support for giving Happy more time to deal with the stresses she was facing. This extreme emphasis on tiny details over overall intent is as if I had spent an hour lovingly brushing and combing my dog's long silky hair only to be banned from doing so for two weeks because I had missed removing a single tiny deer tick that I didn't see.
A very important issue, which no-one has yet addressed, is that our therapists have begun to consider Babble detrimental to several of us. If there is one thing to consider, this is it. A mental health forum which therapists do not want their patients/clients to participate in is by definition a disaster.
As to the question of Psychology functioning as therapy, I know it is not supposed to. I was pointing out the ways that I believe it does function that way- and was trying to emphasize the transference aspects which I have noticed there- the heightened love and appreciation, the disappointment, the hurt and pain- all these seemed intensified over what one might expect.
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:27:00
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea. » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2009, at 12:20:28
I'm not against the idea of civility buddies at all, but I think that is more for people having difficulty expressing an idea in an appropriate manner. I am talking about something different. I would like for there to be good ways to stand up for the principles one believes in- the right to support a fellow Babbler, and the right to protest personal criticisms publicly (just as publicly as they were given). These were taken for granted in the Babble of several years ago, but have been steadily eroded away- in my opinion by the overly strict application of the civility guidelines, which seem to be administered now without thought to the context. I don't think the deputies have any choice but to follow the guidelines to the letter; Dr. Bob, as the administrator, is the only one with the authority to look at each overall situation and decide whether or not to take any action. I do not know whether Dr. Bob has any interest in moderating the guidelines so that their effect is seen as more benign and fair, but I am bringing up this situation- as I see it- in the hope of finding out.
Several very good therapists, whose patients/clients are doing well- Zeba's, Happy's and mine- no longer want us to participate here. I think this is a very alarming development. If there is going to be any reason at all for Babble to continue as a mental health forum, it has to find a way to be helpful, rather than destructive to its members.
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:45:03
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » twinleaf, posted by garnet71 on February 22, 2009, at 13:14:27
Thanks for your post. I haven't been following what has been happening on Politics too closely, so I'm not too up on what's been happening there. I got the impression that posters could not express political views freely, even if they were civil, because others who had differing views might feel put down.
There is something about applying civility guidelines in this way which makes me feel that Babble is functioning as though the Declaration of Independence had not yet been written- nor even the ideas in the Magna Carta or those of the ancient Greek philosophers.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 17:09:16
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » garnet71, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:45:03
> Thanks for your post. I haven't been following what has been happening on Politics too closely, so I'm not too up on what's been happening there. I got the impression that posters could not express political views freely, even if they were civil, because others who had differing views might feel put down.
>
> There is something about applying civility guidelines in this way which makes me feel that Babble is functioning as though the Declaration of Independence had not yet been written- nor even the ideas in the Magna Carta or those of the ancient Greek philosophers.
You wrote,[...others..might feel put down...]
I am unsure as to what in your thinking constitutes a statement that could lead one to feel put down. Could you list criteria here in your thinking that could be used to determine if a statement could lead one to feel put down?
Lou
Posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 17:53:26
In reply to Lou's request for criteria-putduck » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 17:09:16
I'm sorry, Lou. I really can't express myself any more clearly than I just have. I would be very interested in an exchange of ideas with you, but I would need you to express some ideas, thoughts and feelings of your own for that to happen.
Would you consider putting aside a request for "lists of criteria which I use in order to decide whether I feel someone has been put down" in favor of sharing your own ideas about this topic? I think that would enrich our dialogue a great deal.
Posted by Sigismund on February 22, 2009, at 18:52:45
In reply to Re: Lou's request for criteria-putduck » Lou Pilder, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 17:53:26
I have to think quite hard to have the foggiest of what a criterion is.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 20:07:31
In reply to Re: Lou's request for criteria-putduck, posted by Sigismund on February 22, 2009, at 18:52:45
> I have to think quite hard to have the foggiest of what a criterion is.
Sigismund,
Criteria are what one uses as {a test} to make a determination.
So there could be a test to use to determine if a statement could lead one to feel put down?
If you were testing to see if a statement could lead one to feel put down, could you post here what would you use in your test, {the criteria}, to determine that?
Lou
Posted by fayeroe on February 22, 2009, at 20:17:46
In reply to Re: a new beginning... » garnet71, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:45:03
> Thanks for your post. I haven't been following what has been happening on Politics too closely, so I'm not too up on what's been happening there. I got the impression that posters could not express political views freely, even if they were civil, because others who had differing views might feel put down.
You hit the nail on the head..I sense that the Politics board is going to be eliminated. For what? I have no idea. That within itself is extremely frustrating to me. I think that we are very civil towards one another. I guess it is in how you feel/think/believe/observe civility.
>
> There is something about applying civility guidelines in this way which makes me feel that Babble is functioning as though the Declaration of Independence had not yet been written- nor even the ideas in the Magna Carta or those of the ancient Greek philosophers.I was told three years ago to stay off of Babble. Recently my Pdoc suggested that I leave and "not look back".
Posted by Sigismund on February 22, 2009, at 20:55:03
In reply to Lou's reply-testing foraduk » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on February 22, 2009, at 20:07:31
>If you were testing to see if a statement could lead one to feel put down, could you post here what would you use in your test, {the criteria}, to determine that?
I don't know that I could think of one, Lou, apart from the effect the statement would have on me and apart from asking people whether or not they felt put down by the statement.
Posted by Zeba on February 22, 2009, at 21:29:45
In reply to civility buddies..., posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:27:00
I don't want to start posting again, but yes my analyst doesn't give me advise either except to suggest that it might be best not to post here due to what he thought was a rather destructive experience for me with this site. I know I felt people and me included were blocked at times for reasons I could not fathom. It seemed to me that blocks were oftn subjective, though not always.
Babble seems a bit archaic to me anymore. I would not feel comfortable posting about my therapy or other personl things except for very, very generally. There are some good people here, and unfortunately during a period of time I alienated myself with some people thoguh not necessarily on babble. I was in a bad place at the time and much more vulnerable myself. Unfortunately I felt Babble could be rather destructive too. For me it was like setting myself up for abuse--it had that flavor to it. It was sort of like "be careful what you say or do or you might be punished," and then again you might be punished anyway. That is how it felt for me. For me it felt like there was always someone out there, either Bob or a Deputy to say you were out of line for whatever reason. For me it felt very destructive.
Twinleaf, yes, I used to be on Parnate, and I am so happy to be off of meds. Tonight I had pizza and a beer. I had not had a beer in three years, I think, maybe longer.
It is odd that some therapists seem to view the experience here as destructive for their patients/clients. they work with us regularly and know us as persons with out strengths and weaknesses and know when to say something and when to be silent.
Zeba
Posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:37:30
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea. » seldomseen, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 16:03:55
I disagree that the rules are more stringent now. I think they are more lax.
I got blocked a few years ago for saying I thought it might be fun to jump off the CN tower. I was just kind of being dark.
Plus I think I got blocked for asking if Celexa was the drug that was dangerous to OD on. I put Celexa in a codied form but provided a key.
Anyways, I think the rules and blockings are much more lax now. With the new blocking formula it now takes into consideration the length of good behaviour, before it was just double the block length everytime no matter what. I really like the blocking formula now. I forget who come up with the equation, but it's genius.
Posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:43:51
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:37:30
https://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060111/msgs/601660.html
Check this out: I was blocked for 4 weeks a few years a go.
Posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:54:28
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:37:30
Hmmm...seems like my memory is wrong. I didn't even say it was fun.
See, the rules are way more lax now.
Posted by Neal on February 23, 2009, at 1:25:50
In reply to Re: Okay, I may have one crazy idea., posted by Deneb on February 22, 2009, at 22:54:28
This is not just any old board. It's for people with a life-threatening illness. Dr Bob long ago used to personally monitor the board. People complained about "censorship". He then tried the "hands off" approach but that didn't prevent really big blow-ups and flame-wars from breaking out. The board almost didn't survive. I know I left - too much to take.
Then come later people who say, "try this" etc. Bob's tried a lot of things and they've been found wanting. There are people who come here who have suicidal thoughts - that's serious, serious, business.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 23, 2009, at 4:54:53
In reply to Re: Lou's request for criteria-putduck » Lou Pilder, posted by twinleaf on February 22, 2009, at 17:53:26
> I'm sorry, Lou. I really can't express myself any more clearly than I just have. I would be very interested in an exchange of ideas with you, but I would need you to express some ideas, thoughts and feelings of your own for that to happen.
>
> Would you consider putting aside a request for "lists of criteria which I use in order to decide whether I feel someone has been put down" in favor of sharing your own ideas about this topic? I think that would enrich our dialogue a great deal.Twinleaf,
You wrote,[...express..ideas..of your own...sharing your own ideas...].
There are outstanding requests from me to Mr Hsiung here concerning as to what in his thinking are the criteria that he uses here to determine if a statement could lead a person to feel put down. Here are links to some of my requests for clarification and such to him that I am awaiting a response to. If you could go through the posts in the threads that the link brings up, could you see if there could be a basis for discussion?
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/821127.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080313/msgs/821666.html
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