![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2008, at 17:36:47
In reply to uh oh, I kinda DID get it!?, posted by muffled on December 23, 2008, at 16:48:25
That's precisely right, Muffled.
I'm sorry I didn't answer earlier. I was at work. I'm glad Dr. Bob clarified. A PBC was never recorded.
Posted by jammerlich on December 23, 2008, at 18:35:01
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays (nm) » Partlycloudy, posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2008, at 13:54:36
In my opinion, a retraction of a PBC is best placed in the thread in which it was given. Some people may not follow the topic as it moves Admin and the person PBC'd might want any percieved tarnish to his or her reputation removed before the proper audience. Just my thoughts, for what they're worth.
(((((partlycloudy)))))
Posted by Phillipa on December 23, 2008, at 18:55:57
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays » Dr. Bob, posted by jammerlich on December 23, 2008, at 18:35:01
Good Point Phillipa
Posted by muffled on December 23, 2008, at 19:14:47
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays » Dr. Bob, posted by jammerlich on December 23, 2008, at 18:35:01
I kinda was thinking too, if there was doubt, maybe its best to ask *B4* pbc'ing as in this case? Cuz I was thinking it was a joke what pc said too.
Or mebbe thats just me being picky, I dunno, my heads spinnin a bit.
Gotto go figger WTF to feed kids for supper.
The dishes never end.
Laundry....
Water on floor from snow.
Trying to keep fire going w/friggin wet wood...arrggghh.
Best wishes.
M
Posted by Tabitha on December 24, 2008, at 0:21:39
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays, posted by muffled on December 23, 2008, at 19:14:47
place. Great decryption skills there.
Posted by BayLeaf on December 24, 2008, at 16:47:32
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays » Dr. Bob, posted by jammerlich on December 23, 2008, at 18:35:01
Would someone post an UN-PBC on the thread where it was issued? Seems only fair since a lot of people don't come to the Admin board. Thank you!
Bay
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 16:58:31
In reply to you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone, posted by BayLeaf on December 24, 2008, at 16:47:32
Someone already posted a link to this thread. But I'll link it again.
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 17:00:07
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone » BayLeaf, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 16:58:31
I suppose it was a reference. I'll post a link.
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 17:01:55
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 17:00:07
Muffled beat me to it.
Thanks, Muffled.
Posted by BayLeaf on December 24, 2008, at 19:17:05
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 17:01:55
Muffled, sweet as she may be isn't an deputy.
How hard would it have been to just post the retraction? See, this is what I meant by my previous post. Maybe just post a little softer when possible?
It feels like the deputy team is all on one side, and the "other side" is...well...screwed. It shouldn't be like that. The deputy team should be the mediators.
Bay
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 21:32:15
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone » Dinah, posted by BayLeaf on December 24, 2008, at 19:17:05
I was not only busy with Christmas yesterday, but I had a migraine and my vertigo is acting up again, so it's not easy to read or write for long because my eyes are jumping around. And, in my opinion, it would not only have been rude for me to have repeated what Muffled did, but it would have sent the wrong message. IMO Babblers should feel free to do what they think should be done (as long as it's civil) if Admin doesn't think of it. Muffled did it just fine. If that's not your opinion, then I respect that, but please don't assume that I had any bad or uncivil intent.
I did my best. If my best isn't good enough, I will be happy to step down at Dr. Bob's request.
It's true that this past week or so, I haven't so much felt like a Babbler, but more like a deputy. From my point of view that isn't a positive thing for me. It isn't what I want, and it isn't what I like. I don't do this to be a deputy. I do this to be a Babbler. And if you think it feels bad on your "side", it doesn't feel so good over here either. I've been reasonably sure these past couple of weeks that whatever I do, it will be the wrong thing. I don't remember the last time I've felt so bad about myself on Babble.
From my point of view, I didn't draw or want any lines and I don't want any sides. I'd like us to work together to keep Babble a positive environment for posters and posters who happen to be deputies. I'm sorry if this isn't possible. I've done my best to keep the lines between the two down.
Posted by Phillipa on December 24, 2008, at 22:19:38
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone » BayLeaf, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 21:32:15
Dinah I feel for you. You're a very strong person in my opinion. Love Phillipa
Posted by muffled on December 24, 2008, at 23:04:14
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone » Dinah, posted by BayLeaf on December 24, 2008, at 19:17:05
> Muffled, sweet as she may be isn't an deputy.
*ya, I haven't been a dep and I feel kinda bad bout that, but it seems too hard so i don't want to do it, but I don't mind to help where I can.
And thanks that I am sweet :-) !!!
> How hard would it have been to just post the retraction? See, this is what I meant by my previous post. Maybe just post a little softer when possible?*I think the deps are trying...
> It feels like the deputy team is all on one side, and the "other side" is...well...screwed. It shouldn't be like that. The deputy team should be the mediators.
*I feel a little history or info would be good here.
Historically, when Dr. Bob started the 'deps', they went thru a training process. What they THOT they were going to do, was help out a *little* at babble.....this sadly/unfortunately was not the case. Dr. Bob then proceeded to disappear on them :-( They got a whole LOT, like a whole whole lot more than they bargained for.
I am guessing that Dr. Bobs intentions were good towards this site, but he just was findding he didn't have enough time for it, hence the deps. Then for unknown reasons he was gone, like GONE, and now he reappears from time to time...
What the deps have to deal with is trying to understand Dr. Bobs ofttimes mysterious rules. They have to deal with the fact that sometimes he's here....and sometimes...not. And there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of rhyme or reason....
So the deps started out as babblers that had been here awhile, and they still ARE babblers IMHO, they just are HELPING OUT. They are not paid, they have lives of their own. Sorry if this seems a lecture, its not meant to be, just background.This place has changed so much. the rules etc keep changing. I think Dr. Bob is trying to figger what works.
In the process of him stepping back from babble, he indicated that he wanted ALL babblers to take an interest in the running of this site. Thats partly why the notify button came into play.
I beleive Dr. Bob would wish us all to help, not just pile all the work/responsibility on the deps. This is NOT what they signed up for.
So when we see a poster getting upset and feel we can help, then great, help out! If there is a real hurtful post let admin know so they can take action if they feel it is what they want to do...But all of us can help by greeting new posters, we can help calm, we can help by posting, sometimes we can help by NOT posting!!!, we can help by posting links, or showing others the ropes etc etc etc. I think if we all pitch in where we can, it'll make this a better place, and make it easier on the deps.Just my 2cents worth.
I think once you know the history of the deps, it makes things alot more clear....I hope.Take good care. It is good Bay, that you are taking an interest!
Thanks if you read alla this.
Muffled
Posted by BayLeaf on December 25, 2008, at 10:09:22
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone » BayLeaf, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 21:32:15
"I did my best. If my best isn't good enough, I will be happy to step down at Dr. Bob's request."
Dinah - you know of course, that is NOT what I was suggesting. I'm not sure where you got that idea from my post.
I hope you are feeling better soon.
Bay
Posted by fayeroe on December 25, 2008, at 10:58:33
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone » BayLeaf, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2008, at 21:32:15
*****I did my best. If my best isn't good enough, I will be happy to step down at Dr. Bob's request.
It's true that this past week or so, I haven't so much felt like a Babbler, but more like a deputy. From my point of view that isn't a positive thing for me. It isn't what I want, and it isn't what I like. I don't do this to be a deputy. I do this to be a Babbler. And if you think it feels bad on your "side", it doesn't feel so good over here either. I've been reasonably sure these past couple of weeks that whatever I do, it will be the wrong thing. I don't remember the last time I've felt so bad about myself on Babble.
From my point of view, I didn't draw or want any lines and I don't want any sides. I'd like us to work together to keep Babble a positive environment for posters and posters who happen to be deputies. I'm sorry if this isn't possible. I've done my best to keep the lines between the two down. *****
I'm sorry that this is a time where you've felt worse than you ever have on Babble.
I believe that when a PBC is applied and the poster hasn't been uncivil it does upset people.(especially the people who didn't deserve the PBC) I've seen three such PBCs in a row that were rescinded and it took quite awhile to get the last unPBC in the proper place. PBCs can be hurtful and if I don't deserve one...that makes it worse.
I've been busy and I have physical problems that affect me also. For instance I've been in horrible pain recently but I know that I will have flare-ups and I try to prepare for them.
I'm sorry Dinah, but I feel that if one of us is a deputy, there are going to be up and down days. I realize that you feel put upon and I expect you will again. It is a life thing.
Pat
Posted by BayLeaf on December 25, 2008, at 11:05:34
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays )Dinah or someone » BayLeaf, posted by muffled on December 24, 2008, at 23:04:14
Muffled - Like I've said before, new name, old poster.
I get the whole history. But when Bob decided to walk away and leave the administration to deputies, it is their decision to allow that to happen. Don't we all allow people to treat us one way or another? I know the deputies did this for the good of the Babblers. That's extremely generous! They are good people.
But, Dinah and others should not have to bare the burden of running Babble via his convoluted tippy-toe rules. It was unfair to dump Babble on them, and takes advantage of their emotional attachment to Babble and Babblers, and perhaps Bob.
By allowing him to do this - they are enabling him to continue the age old "cycle of abuse".
He'll show up with flowers and a smiley face once in a while...then he's gone again. It irks me to no end to see him get away with it.
If he does not want to admin Babble, he ought to discuss his options with the International Society for Mental Health Online. I believe he's on the board. I'm sure they can come up with a better alternative than walking away.
Bay (guessing she'll see you next year!)
Posted by lucie lu on December 26, 2008, at 2:55:38
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays » muffled, posted by BayLeaf on December 25, 2008, at 11:05:34
> Muffled - Like I've said before, new name, old poster.
Hi Bay,
I know that you are an old poster with a name change. When I posted above to you about not many people seeming to leave the psych board, I was merely trying to more or less report my observation. You have not been posting much on that board under your new name, and of course I cannot know whether you have been reading it regularly. So I do know that you are not new, and I'm sorry if you took offense, none was intended.
Happy holidays,
Lucie
Posted by BayLeaf on December 26, 2008, at 7:53:09
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 26, 2008, at 2:55:38
I do read a lot. More than I should. I used to post a lot, but got my precious feelings hurt too much. You know, primary feelings, secondary feelings. Hurt...anger. That's me in a nut shell. Nut being the key word. Now I'm an angry nut. I'll try to work on it more.
Bay
Posted by muffled on December 29, 2008, at 1:11:37
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays » muffled, posted by BayLeaf on December 25, 2008, at 11:05:34
> Muffled - Like I've said before, new name, old poster.
*sorry Bay, I got a mind like a sieve. I can't remember babblers and details very well when names don't change, obvo i am ridiculously bad with name changes, though I understand why people do it.
> I get the whole history. But when Bob decided to walk away and leave the administration to deputies, it is their decision to allow that to happen. Don't we all allow people to treat us one way or another? I know the deputies did this for the good of the Babblers. That's extremely generous! They are good people.*I agree, we must protect ourselves, but sometimes we dunno how to do that very well. Ya :-) deps good people!
> But, Dinah and others should not have to bare the burden of running Babble via his convoluted tippy-toe rules. It was unfair to dump Babble on them, and takes advantage of their emotional attachment to Babble and Babblers, and perhaps Bob.*Thats it exactly, its SO hard to figger the RULES, UGH!
Ya I agree with you here.
> By allowing him to do this - they are enabling him to continue the age old "cycle of abuse".*Ya think so? I mean by abuse, I never thot of that, but I guess its like neglect is considered abuse too, so maybe so. I think the emotional aspect of all abuse is often the most damaging.
> He'll show up with flowers and a smiley face once in a while...then he's gone again. It irks me to no end to see him get away with it.
*Ya, I kinda got this admire/hate thing w/him. I have a scientific side that admires some of his thot trains.....when we can figure them out that is!!!
> If he does not want to admin Babble, he ought to discuss his options with the International Society for Mental Health Online. I believe he's on the board. I'm sure they can come up with a better alternative than walking away.*Well I agree that I wish Bob would do something to get some help with administrating this site. Maybe he could get some good ideas from others involved in this type of stuff. I wondered if someone might want to help that was not a babbler already. But who would do this?
I wished I knew what could be done.
> Bay (guessing she'll see you next year!)*LOL! Nope! Not next year yet! Soon though.
Thanks for talking to me.
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2008, at 2:08:48
In reply to Re: you're un-pbced, happy holidays » lucie lu, posted by BayLeaf on December 26, 2008, at 7:53:09
> I did my best. If my best isn't good enough, I will be happy to step down at Dr. Bob's request.
>
> I don't do this to be a deputy. I do this to be a Babbler. And if you think it feels bad on your "side", it doesn't feel so good over here either.
>
> From my point of view, I didn't draw or want any lines and I don't want any sides. I'd like us to work together to keep Babble a positive environment for posters and posters who happen to be deputies.
>
> Dinah> Historically, when Dr. Bob started the 'deps' ... What they THOT they were going to do, was help out a *little* at babble.....this sadly/unfortunately was not the case. Dr. Bob then proceeded to disappear on them :-( They got a whole LOT, like a whole whole lot more than they bargained for.
> What the deps have to deal with is trying to understand Dr. Bobs ofttimes mysterious rules.
> So the deps started out as babblers that had been here awhile, and they still ARE babblers IMHO, they just are HELPING OUT. They are not paid, they have lives of their own.
>
> This place has changed so much. the rules etc keep changing. I think Dr. Bob is trying to figger what works.
> In the process of him stepping back from babble, he indicated that he wanted ALL babblers to take an interest in the running of this site. Thats partly why the notify button came into play.
> I beleive Dr. Bob would wish us all to help, not just pile all the work/responsibility on the deps. This is NOT what they signed up for.
> So when we see a poster getting upset and feel we can help, then great, help out! ... I think if we all pitch in where we can, it'll make this a better place
>
> Muffled> I'm sorry Dinah, but I feel that if one of us is a deputy, there are going to be up and down days. I realize that you feel put upon and I expect you will again. It is a life thing.
>
> PatDinah, I consider your best to be better than good enough, and I request not that you step down, but that you stay.
I'm also concerned about lines being drawn between posters with and without deputy roles. Both have ups and downs, sometimes feel bad or put upon, want Babble to be supportive, can and do help Babble to be supportive, sometimes get more than they bargained for, and feel mystified by me. That's my impression, at least.
I'm definitely still trying to figger what works. One challenge is that this place keeps evolving. The community evolves, and our roles -- my role, the role of deputies, and the role of posters -- all evolve. And change is hard. But can lead to growth and development, too.
I do think I may have made it harder for the deputies -- which I regret -- by hoping that they would manage the boards like I did. Maybe that made sense when we started. But with the growth and development since, and with me stepping back, it may be time for me to try to empower them to be more autonomous. And at the same time to support them by backing them up.
--
> I used to post a lot, but got my precious feelings hurt too much. You know, primary feelings, secondary feelings. Hurt...anger.
> It was unfair to dump Babble on them, and takes advantage of their emotional attachment to Babble and Babblers, and perhaps Bob.
>
> By allowing him to do this - they are enabling him to continue the age old "cycle of abuse".
>
> Bay (guessing she'll see you next year!)I'm afraid incivility, and the accompanying administrative action, can also continue cycles of hurt. Please don't take this personally, it doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person. But I need to ask you not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused (for example, of taking advantage or enabling others).
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by BayLeaf on December 30, 2008, at 18:21:02
In reply to Re: trying to figger what works, posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2008, at 2:08:48
" it may be time for me to try to empower them to be more autonomous."
Is that what the deputies want?
and would that mean you would let them make rule changes? I don't have anything in mind, just wondering. They might be able to come up with changes which would simplify their jobs. I dunno.
Bay
Posted by muffled on December 30, 2008, at 19:57:09
In reply to Re: trying to figger what works, posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2008, at 2:08:48
Well Bob, that was one of your better posts.
I agree that Dinah is a great member of your wonderful deputy team.
I feel sorta like you may be accepting that us babblers do have brains....go *figger* LOL!!!
yes, sarcasm(just don't want you to get a fat head...)
But really. That was a nice post and I appreciate it.
I do hope you can continue to back up the deps.
I also think it worth thinking about how/when to use PBC's, and if there could be a run up to them????though WHAT that would be I don't know...the run up would probably be perceived in the same way. However, maybe if it was known that the run up WASN'T recorded, maybe that would be better?
I dunno.
I love computer english LOL!
Thank you.
Muffled
Posted by lucie lu on December 30, 2008, at 20:35:54
In reply to Re: trying to figger what works, posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2008, at 2:08:48
> " it may be time for me to try to empower them to be more autonomous."
>
> Is that what the deputies want?
> BayBob,
Your post is nice but in my opinion it does not go far enough. I am not trying to attack you reflexively; I have tried to keep an open mind, for months in fact. I have been posting on Babble less than a year (reading longer) but have tried to participate as fully and positively as possible, primarily on the psych board. I have believed strongly in its precepts and potential for healing and communion between people. IMO this is a good idea and at the same time, there are serious problems in implementation.
Look at it this way, if you don't want this job (overseeing Babble), and this is your brain-child, what makes you think the deputies would? I think as a social psych experiment, the take-home of Babble, which is a valuable idea basically, is that someone has to be minding the store at all times, and that someone has to be heavily invested and *present*. And I don't know what incentive there would be if being "the creator" is not incentive enough. The deputies are just that, deputies. There has to be a sheriff. You have seen, we have all seen, the enormous stress the deputies have been under. And it is not just from not having enough power -this is just not what they want to be doing. We cannot keep ignoring that.
As I see it, this poses a dilemma for you - how do you ethically abandon a brain-child? And if you are not abandoning it, then you have to remain accountable for it. With all due respect, I think you have not been holding yourself sufficiently accountable, even though there is nothing in place to replace you. I think that is really regrettable.
Sorry to be so blunt. Babble has been important to me. The people involved, especially the deputies, in keeping Babble running have inspired me greatly by trying their best to keep things going, with incredible grace under great duress. But this should not be their job, or ultimately their responsibility, and from what they keep posting, they do not want that job either.
I hope we can find a solution, but it needs to be a real one.
Best regards,
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on December 30, 2008, at 21:22:22
In reply to Re: trying to figger what works » Dr. Bob, posted by lucie lu on December 30, 2008, at 20:35:54
I realize that there may be a wish for "all posters" to run Babble, eliminating the need for primary oversight by any one person. But I don't think this is realistic. Babble is not a multi-celled organism, but an ever-changing group of individuals with a variety of different ideas and mind-sets. I'm afraid I just can't see a good solution that doesn't involve some top-down administration.I realize too that Babble has been going on far longer than I have been involved with it. But I base my opinions on what has happened in the past year, which has seen at least two fairly serious rifts in the community. These were not small things but hurtful to a number of individual posters and deputies. Hence my concern and observations.
Lucie
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2008, at 21:36:14
In reply to Re: trying to figger what works, posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2008, at 2:08:48
> Dinah, I consider your best to be better than good enough, and I request not that you step down, but that you stay.
Thank you, Dr. Bob. I do appreciate your saying that.
> I'm also concerned about lines being drawn between posters with and without deputy roles. Both have ups and downs, sometimes feel bad or put upon, want Babble to be supportive, can and do help Babble to be supportive, sometimes get more than they bargained for, and feel mystified by me. That's my impression, at least.
>
> I'm definitely still trying to figger what works. One challenge is that this place keeps evolving. The community evolves, and our roles -- my role, the role of deputies, and the role of posters -- all evolve. And change is hard. But can lead to growth and development, too.
>
> I do think I may have made it harder for the deputies -- which I regret -- by hoping that they would manage the boards like I did. Maybe that made sense when we started. But with the growth and development since, and with me stepping back, it may be time for me to try to empower them to be more autonomous. And at the same time to support them by backing them up.Well, I have mixed feelings about that. I hope I make the same choices you make as well, and I prefer to have you set the overall rules and monitor the deputy enforcement of those rules. I suspect that you're wanting us to feel more empowered to act without waiting for your input, which I understand from a practical point of view. However, I have always been happy not to be moderator of this site, but rather your deputy. I've never been overly fond of the evolving role of the deputy, and I would be more unhappy to think you weren't overseeing us to act as you would act than I would being given the freedom to act autonomously. I've always been relatively clear about that. If you wish to step back from day to day direct involvement of the board to more of a supervisory role of deputies, it's not what I prefer obviously, but I accept it.
I don't *think* you're proposing more than that, and I wouldn't be comfortable with more responsibility than that.
But yes, I do think there are times when a more visible show of support for deputy actions by you would be helpful. If only to show that you are aware of your responsibility for the board and for our actions, and that you are aware of our actions, and that ultimate responsibility and any blame involved lie with you.
My preference would be that if you are taking more of a supervisory than a direct day to day primary involvement role, that the traditional chain of command be applied to the Administrative Board. That you would check here periodically to review poster suggestions, etc. and that posters feel free to make complaints about deputies directly to you, with your agreement to take on the responsibility of reviewing and responding to those as you see fit. Because we are posters first, who have agreed to help you. Responsibility remains in your hands, which is where it belongs, and any changes that need to be made, should the deputy system remain, should be made in such a way to reflect that reality.
That's just my own point of view, and may not reflect that of other deputies.
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