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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 163. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on July 9, 2005, at 19:17:37
In reply to Re: Seriousness of death, posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 17:24:49
Ok, so I didn't see anything wrong with what I said... But I've been thinking about it since Crushed posted, and I see how it could be taken the wrong way.
>>> ODs are a bad idea because they can lead to injury or death. So do not OD.
>> Your message totally took me by surprise. Sympathetic system overdrive after reading it.
>> It scared me.
>Why? Didn't you know that already?
>>Don't worry for me people, I'm still a little too fat to die. I don't want to be a fat corpse. I want to lose 15 pounds first.
>Why? Are you worried about not looking glam enough in your coffin?See, here I'm a bit boggled. Sounds rather like joking about death.
>When I read these comments I feel really sick >way down deep inside me.
>Some people have gone through hell because >someone close to them has killed themself.
>But you play around with the idea.
>And I think... I think that disrespects them.Because you play around with the idea and joke about it. And an additional reason why I find it disrespecful is:
>Because it isn't about death anyway. You have >admitted that before. It isn't about death >anyway.
And that is the bit I really need to clarify. Because I think you are interested in the idea that people who are serious about suicide succeed. And people who aren't serious, who want attention or whatever don't succeed. Or, at the very least, they try something with a higher liklihood of success.
But what is this really about?
You want the pain and horrible feelings to stop.
And then a lot of stuff comes up... A lot of stuff... About how bad things feel to you, and about other people knowing how bad things are. And other people don't seem to believe you or care or do anything to stop you feeling bad and so hurting yourself is a way of showing people just how bad things are. And of course suicide is the ultimate gesture that things are not okay.>And I really shouldn't post to you about this >stuff when you are in this kind of place because >I feel sick and I feel mad with you because of >where I have been in my life.
>It is painful for me to walk.
>Every f*cking day.
>Because I was messing around with this sh*t.
>And its hard because I remember the feeling of >not caring whether I lived or died.
>And I do get that.
>But...I used to have a morbid pre-occupation too. I'd think about it an awful lot. And think about different ways. And think about which of those different ways I thought I could do. And try to balance what I thought I could do with the ways that have a greater liklihood of success. And I'd joke about it a great deal too. And want to hear all about it.
And something felt a bit good there. Like I had an option and if worst came to worst there was something I could do. And thats the horrible bit. Because it can seem wonderful now because it can seem like a legitimate option - but you won't really do anything and it helps you feel a bit better so really there is no harm in it.
But then when things get bad it starts to look like the ONLY option and that is f*cking terrifying.
And so it is hard. Because there is something fascinating about it. And there is something that helps in thinking about it.
But it is a short term short sighted gain that can really kick you in the guts when things turn to sh*t.
And you really need to focus on how to keep yourself safe and how to get yourself out of this and how to get yourself better. Not just to circle round this all the time.
>I don't want to hear about it anymore.
>Sorry Jenny, but I can't help you when you are >in this kind of mood.
>And for myself I need to keep myself safe.And that is what it comes down to really. That what you say rings too close to home to me. Because I work damned hard to not dwell on those thoughts and to not get involved in conversations where people are glorifying death and joking about it.
And I don't want to risk going back there again.
I don't want to risk getting sucked back there.
And that is why I never made friends with anyone in DBT
And that is why I won't be posting to you with regards to this stuff anymore
Because I'm not that strong.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 9, 2005, at 19:19:33
In reply to Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain why., posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 18:39:26
I'd appreciate it if you could tell me directly if you have a problem with my posts.
Kind of in the spirit of 'lets try and help this person not get blocked' rather than requesting a determination from Dr Bob where a blocking is the likely consequence.
If people had have jumped on board with Larry (and other people who have been blocked) we may have been able to prevent that.
Thanks.
Posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 19:22:38
In reply to Re: Is it permissible to..., posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2005, at 16:07:25
Posted by alexandra_k on July 9, 2005, at 19:28:27
In reply to Re: I'm sorry i hurt u Alex, I'll stop now (nm), posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 19:22:38
I do consider you a friend.
I know that you have posted about having a morbid preoccupation before...
I'd be happy to talk about ways you might be able to try and stop that (hell, its something that is still hard for me sometimes and maybe we can help each other).
I'd be happy to share my experiences even - if I thought there was some postive benefit to that. But I don't think there is really...
I mean...
I thought your question was a little like asking:
'it is okay to ask people about their experience of being raped?'
I guess it is technically ok...
But to what purpose?
It is a horrible experience.
And I look back on my SI and in thinking about it it takes me back to how I felt when I did it
And I wouldn't go back there for worlds
Unless I thought the cost was moderated by some pretty solid gains.Still your friend.
Posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 19:44:23
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain why. » crushedout, posted by alexandra_k on July 9, 2005, at 19:19:33
the only problem i have is with what sometimes seems like arbitrary or unfair application of the rules. i doubt you will be blocked, but i don't understand why not, since i think by definition what you said wasn't civil.but i'd like to understand the rules and i'm asking bob to clarify why i've got this wrong if i do.
i have no desire to get you blocked.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 9, 2005, at 20:53:52
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain » alexandra_k, posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 19:44:23
> the only problem i have is with what sometimes seems like arbitrary or unfair application of the rules.
Context can be importaint.
>i doubt you will be blocked, but i don't understand why not, since i think by definition what you said wasn't civil.
??? Deneb didn't seem to feel hurt or accused.
Blockings seem to have a lot to do with stopping situations from escalating. If Deneb was upset by what I said and I kept going I might get a warning / blocking for it.
Posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 21:19:18
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain » crushedout, posted by alexandra_k on July 9, 2005, at 20:53:52
> >i doubt you will be blocked, but i don't understand why not, since i think by definition what you said wasn't civil.
>
> ??? Deneb didn't seem to feel hurt or accused.it's not a subjective standard. read the FAQ on I-statements again. what you said doesn't qualify as an I-statement.
> Blockings seem to have a lot to do with stopping situations from escalating. If Deneb was upset by what I said and I kept going I might get a warning / blocking for it.
that's not my experience of how things work around here.
Posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 22:00:45
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain » crushedout, posted by alexandra_k on July 9, 2005, at 20:53:52
> ??? Deneb didn't seem to feel hurt or accused.
I was hurt, esp. by the idea that I want to "look glam in my coffin."
I don't want anyone to get blocked. I messed up again and I'm sorry.
BTW, I know it totally doesn't make sense to want to look nice dead, also I'm not that shallow as to judge people based on looks. I would want to be cremated.
I think I'm finally convinced that Dr. Bob doesn't want me dead. Thanks for doing that Dr. Bob. I will try very very hard to be good here and not die.
Deneb
Posted by justyourlaugh on July 9, 2005, at 22:42:11
In reply to Re: Was I hurt?, posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 22:00:45
deneb..
i feel your casual remarks about death are uncivil..and morbid..
please ..please ..put "trigger" in your subject line..so thoses who know your posting style will avoid your "death" rants...
trying not to die...jyl
Posted by Sarah T. on July 9, 2005, at 23:14:04
In reply to Re: Was I hurt?, posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 22:00:45
Deneb,
I have read some of your other posts over the last few months, and from many of them, it is clear that you are an extremely intelligent, observant, sensitive person. You have so much going for you. I wish that you would get the help you need so that you can move in a healthier direction and pursue your academic ambitions, such as astronomy. I gather that you are living at home now and working for your uncle, which must be very difficult. Perhaps you can start to think about moving away from home and working as a research assistant in a science setting. Can you apprentice with an astronomer at an observatory? Being away from your family of origin and working at a more rewarding job will make you feel better about yourself. I think you MUST find a good psychiatrist who will not only help you with your medication but also talk with you about the things that distress you and cause you to go off on these death wish tangents. Every time I see one of your morbid posts, I think to myself, "Aw, c'mon Deneb, you know better than that." Although I don't know you well, I can tell from your other posts that you are wise enough to know that wallowing in these thoughts is, at best, unhealthy. If you are really serious about some of the things you say at these times, then it is even more critical that you should be in therapy regularly. And if you are not serious about these things, then you should still be in therapy to explore why you resort to this kind of talk and behavior. Although the other people on PB can be wonderfully helpful and supportive, there isn't anyone here who can function as a psychiatrist to you over the Internet. Not even those with M.D.'s or Ph.D's or social work degrees can legally or ethically treat you online. Please do some research on the psychiatrists in your area, and make appointments with several of them. Interview them, and choose the one with whom you feel most comfortable.
Posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 23:26:38
In reply to Re: Was I hurt?, posted by justyourlaugh on July 9, 2005, at 22:42:11
I'm really upset that so many people think I'm trying to hurt others on purpose.
Like I said, I'm really sorry. I don't know what else I can do here.
I'm sorry I don't know how to behave. I'm sorry I don't "get it." I just don't understand why people are so upset at what I say.
Block me if I was uncivil. I should have put trigger warnings. I just really don't get it sometimes.
I don't think this belongs in admin anymore.
Please redirect any non-admin topics to social please.
Please try not to comment on this any further, it is making me more and more upset.
Deneb
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 9:29:01
In reply to Re: Was I hurt?, posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 23:26:38
> I'm really upset that so many people think I'm trying to hurt others on purpose.
I know you aren't trying to hurt others on purpose. I think that sometimes you don't appreciate how other people are likely to respond to what you say. That isn't your fault - but it will make other people a lot more comprehensible to you if you can learn to understand something of why they respond the way they do.
I don't want to see you blocked.
I want to help you understand.
But I don't know that I can.Other people struggle with thoughts about death and SI. They struggle to put them out of their minds and approach life optimistically.
When I hear people talk about this stuff it gets the mental images / thoughts going around in my mind.
And I think Jyl nailed it: casual.
Its not so much joking, but it is casual.And the thing with the trigger warnings...
Is thinking about just how many of ones posts need them.
And thinking about how other people think about suicide.
You might be able to think about it casually and borderline joke about it. But for someone who is stuck there and is coming to believe it might well be their only option then how helpful do you think your attitude about death is?
I didn't mean to hurt you.
But I'll admit I wanted you to stoppit.But can you understand why? Can you understand why?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 9:32:41
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain, posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 21:19:18
> what you said doesn't qualify as an I-statement.
Sorry, which part?
> > Blockings seem to have a lot to do with stopping situations from escalating. If Deneb was upset by what I said and I kept going I might get a warning / blocking for it.
> that's not my experience of how things work around here.I guess we must have been reading different threads then.
I'm not saying all of them are like that.
But some of them.What part of what I said was accusing, attacking, or putting the other poster down?
And then think about the context in which my post occurred. And the things that provide evidence towards what I said (in case you are worried about my being overgeneralising or accusing).
(Of course I may get blocked for it yet!)
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 12:25:20
In reply to Re: Was I hurt? » Deneb, posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 9:29:01
>...it will make other people a lot more comprehensible to you if you can learn to understand something of why they respond the way they do.
I know it upsets people. Sometimes I forget this. I'm still not so sure about why it upsets people so much. :-(
> I don't want to see you blocked.
> I want to help you understand.
> But I don't know that I can.Thanks, I know you are just trying to protect me now.
> Other people struggle with thoughts about death and SI. They struggle to put them out of their minds and approach life optimistically.
I still don't understand why it is so taboo. I want to be normal like you.
> When I hear people talk about this stuff it gets the mental images / thoughts going around in my mind.I get them too but I kind of enjoy them for some odd reason. :-(
Just because I'm casual about it doesn't mean I'm never serious about it. It is really evil of me but sometimes I feel like doing something bad to myself just to prove that I was serious about it.
Please never ever taunt me to do it people. I don't want to die.
> But can you understand why? Can you understand why?
I think sometimes I understand.
Deneb
P.S. I think I'm much better now. I don't know what came over me.
Posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 16:28:12
In reply to Re: Understanding others » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 12:25:20
deneb...
i feel the casual way you put death and harm into your posts alarming..i do not care if you understand this..i just want to be warned..
so i will avoid all of your posts..
and what has come over you is a "cry for attention".."center stage".."shock talk"..
call a hot line hunny..
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:31:45
In reply to Re: Seriousness of death, posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 17:24:49
> ODs = _________
>
> ____ is probably a better way anyways.
>
> DenebI realize now that the above was pushing it in terms of discussing ways of harming oneself. I'm very sorry.
Is it permissible to replace certain words with "_____" when discussing these sensitive topics? Or is it just not permissible at all to discuss anything that has anything to do with harming oneself?
Or is it just not permissible to discuss "ways" of harming oneself? I must admit that this is one of my weak spots in terms of civility.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:37:34
In reply to Re: Understanding others » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 16:28:12
> and what has come over you is a "cry for attention".."center stage".."shock talk"..
> call a hot line hunny..Can I request that you and others please not comment on this further? It upsets me.
thanks
Deneb
Posted by gabbii on July 10, 2005, at 17:43:56
In reply to Re: Sorry about pushing civility guidelines, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:31:45
> I realize now that the above was pushing it in terms of discussing ways of harming oneself. I'm very sorry.
>
> Is it permissible to replace certain words with "_____" when discussing these sensitive topics? Or is it just not permissible at all to discuss anything that has anything to do with harming oneself?
>One poster Yesac started a thread a long time ago asking people who'd attempted if they were glad they recovered. It was an extremely interesting thread and went over very well.
I think giving the actual details and methods would not though, and as was mentioned there are other sites which accomodate that are there not?
Posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 18:02:02
In reply to Re: A request » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:37:34
sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:27
In reply to Re: A request » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 18:02:02
> sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
I said I was sorry. I wish with all my might that I had never written it. I'm sorry it hurt you and others. I don't want anyone to die. Do you want me to die? Cuz I will die if that is what will make it better for you. Is that what you want?
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:18:55
In reply to Re: A request » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 18:02:02
> sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
I'm sorry I had to do this. I hope we can still be friends. I just can't handle it right now. I hope you understand.
Posted by jay on July 10, 2005, at 18:41:43
In reply to Re: Do u want me to die? » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:27
> > sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
>
> I said I was sorry. I wish with all my might that I had never written it. I'm sorry it hurt you and others. I don't want anyone to die. Do you want me to die? Cuz I will die if that is what will make it better for you. Is that what you want?
>
> Deneb
No, Deneb, please, nobody wants you to die. I see the struggle, the push and pull, the will to survive in your posts. You are a great role model...as a 30-something guy, your youthful energy awakens the boy inside of me. Stay true to yourself. :-)Best,
Jay
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 19:03:04
In reply to Re: Understanding others » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 16:28:12
> what has come over you is a "cry for attention".."center stage".."shock talk".
Posted by Jen Star on July 10, 2005, at 19:13:38
In reply to Re: Do u want me to die? » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:27
Deneb,
I'm concerned about you right now.To me, the words as written in your post have a tendency to sound somewhat manipulative (when you say that you'll die if another poster wants you to). Do you see this too? I know you might be taking out of hyperbole/exaggeration and probably don't really mean it. But even saying it is troubling to read!
Nobody here wants you to die. Even if they did, for some horrible reason (but they don't!) -- your will overrides that! YOU are the final say in what happens in your life.
I don't think it's acceptable to try and pass off that responsibility to anyone else seriously, jokingly or just as a loose use of words. Your life is YOUR responsibility, and keeping yourself safe is up to YOU. It's not OK to blame babble or babblers for your lack of self-control, or for the way you feel when you get into a bad spot.
Deneb, I like you and I care about you. I want you to be happy, healthy & to live a long fulfilled life! I think you will do that.
sometimes when you're feeling bad & down, your posts about suicide and suicide methods seem to strike a chord of coyness that is out of sync with the feelings of other people here.
Nobody wants you to hurt. What kind of help can we offer here that does NOT discuss suicide methods? Please give that some thought - I'd like to help as best I can over babble.
take care of yourself!
JenStar
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 19:26:12
In reply to Re: Understanding others » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 12:25:20
> I know it upsets people. Sometimes I forget this. I'm still not so sure about why it upsets people so much. :-(
Yeah, it can be hard. I don't blame you for not understanding but I hope you do come to understand.
> Thanks, I know you are just trying to protect me now.I'm trying to help you. I don't know how much help I am / can be. Sometimes I think I'm in a good place because I think I understand where you are coming from because you remind me of me about 7 years ago. But then I also try to be careful that I don't assume you are just like I was - because everybody is different. I also have to be really careful that I don't get caught up in my old ways of thinking. I wouldn't go back there for worlds - and one day you will say the same. I really believe that.
> > Other people struggle with thoughts about death and SI. They struggle to put them out of their minds and approach life optimistically.
> I still don't understand why it is so taboo. I want to be normal like you.ROFL! I'm far from 'normal'. But then who wants to be 'normal' anyways - whatever that means.
It's not that its taboo as such its just that one has to be a bit careful about what one says. When you are in a relatively good place you can talk about it in a light hearted way. But then if someone is in a really bad place and is really struggling to put all those unhelpful thoughts away and not get swept along with them then it can be really very unhelpful to read other peoples light hearted comments on it.
> > When I hear people talk about this stuff it gets the mental images / thoughts going around in my mind.> I get them too but I kind of enjoy them for some odd reason. :-(
Yeah, I used to enjoy them too. When I was in a relatively good place especially. Have you seen the film "Girl Interrupted"? There is a book too. It is really very good. It is about a lady with borderline personality disorder. She had a preoccupation with death too. There are scenes where she is wanting to talk about it and the guy she is with is getting upset about it because he is waiting to see whether he is going to be drafted in vietnam. For her death was an idea she played with. For him death was a horrifying reality. The thing that snapped her out of it was finding her friend after she had hung herself. Suicide is brutal and gory. Most people are a little (or more than a little) afraid of death. And of their own death. Because nobody knows what really happens... Maybe the topic (of ones own death) is a little taboo...
> Just because I'm casual about it doesn't mean I'm never serious about it.Yeah. I get that - I do. But it is thinking about it all the time that makes it seem like a viable option sometimes. It is thinking about it all that time that makes the transition between playing with the idea and really getting the urge to follow through with the idea so insideous. And from there it is just one step again to coming to believe that it is the only viable option. Best to try and counter it at the first step. Easiest to counter it there. One can counter it by being careful not to talk about it in a casual way. By being careful about thinking about it in a casual way. If you want a hand with figuring out how to do that then I'm sure posters here will be willing to help you. People here are really terrific about helping people who want a hand to make their lives better. Even people who really want to want to make their lives better if you can't quite manage the former.
It is hard when thinking about it has become part of your way of life. But it is easier to break the habit when one is relatively okay than it is to try and break the links in the chain when one is going downhill.
>It is really evil of me but sometimes I feel like doing something bad to myself just to prove that I was serious about it.
You aren't evil. I hear what you are saying. I used to get that. I'd ring crisis services and tell them 'I am NOT okay'. They would brush me off. About then I'd get a really strong urge to try something just to prove to everyone that I was serious. Thats a really hard thing to break. Really hard. The truth is... that it is ultimately counter-productive anyway. If you do start doing things like that then the sad truth is that people think you are trying to manipulate them and they do not want to help you anymore :-( So very much better to say that you need a hand because you are having really strong urges and that you don't want to do anything but are having a hard time putting them out of your mind. If people can see that you are trying to help yourself then they are much more willing to go that extra mile in trying to help you.
> Please never ever taunt me to do it people. I don't want to die.I don't want you to die either. I'd never taunt you.
> I think sometimes I understand.:-) Thats good.
You need to get a clinician Deneb.
And I think... You really need to get back to school. You have said before that that was a pretty major thing with respect to giving you a reason to live. Your proff was suprised you left - he said you were going to get an A, remember. You can do this. If your proffs think you can then they would know. You just need to worry about your mental health so that that doesn't prevent you fulfilling your potential. But you need to go back there. Methinks working a dead end job for your uncle, while giving you structure and people contact which is good, is also leaving you feel trapped and like there aren't any prospects for living the life / getting the job that you want to have.It may well be the hardest thing you have ever done but you need to go back.
And you need to get a clinician. You need to be working on your anxiety and all the things that made school so hard so that it'll be easier for you to do it.
> P.S. I think I'm much better now. I don't know what came over me.
Yeah. But it will come back. I'm not meaning to be the harbinger of doom and gloom. But sometimes working out what happened when things go wrong is much easier to do when one is in a good place. And what you figure out when you are in a good place can be helpful to you when you are in a bad place.
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