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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 53 to 77 of 108. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:48:39
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:17:31
No, this board certainly isn't beneficial to everyone. However, it must be of some benefit to Kristin as she keeps coming back. Like I said in another post, if I find something triggering in a post I don't finish reading it. I will continue to offer my support to Kristin (should she return). If others choose not to, then I respect that decision. I know that if certain people on another board had not supported me, I would have not made the progess that I have made today, which I am proud of. God bless you Dinah! :)
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:52:07
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Elle2021, posted by NikkiT2 on November 21, 2003, at 8:26:26
> The one thing I strongly believe is everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions. Even if they are ill.
Sometimes ill people can't take responsibility for their actions, even when we wish they could.
> I have no idea if you were around during the previous problems, but if you were you would have seen how badly ALOT of people weere hurt.
I read the posts, I saw how it hurt a lot of people. I have been on other site where similar things have occurred.
> Surely the good of the msasses must come before th good of one person??I agree, but this is an open board, free to everyone. The final decision will be up to Dr. Bob.
Elle
Posted by shar on November 21, 2003, at 22:40:42
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » NikkiT2, posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:52:07
you must be the angels among us.
While I would be more than happy to engage K in dialogue that might help her, or help her get help, I suffer, myself, too much, to give myself over to those who would do things that might hurt others without cause.
Bless you all.....if I only had the energy I might be able to help...if it turned out K wanted help, that is an option, if I have the energy.
Shar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:01:27
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » Larry Hoover, posted by shar on November 21, 2003, at 16:45:43
> Good point, Lar. Tho' I know you prefer to eschew deference :),
Not totally.....
> I think it is worth considering whether our support will help at all, if someone is poised at the edge of the abyss.
Indeed. I cannot not care, and I cannot fail to consider how I might offer support. What I also cannot do is apply those same considerations to false claims. The problem for me is, the two prior statements always apply. The latter can only be applied retroactively, and imperfectly.
> And, this comes from someone who has looked into the abyss.
>
> SharI'm sorry you've been to that place. I know it well. Given that, and the reasonable presumption that there are numerous such individuals on these boards, the vulnerability to deception is magnified dramatically.
My concerns focus on the conflict between the characteristics of one disorder, and those of another. How is it that I am expected to accomodate the behaviour associated with one type of mental illness (borderline personality disorder) while there is no apparent consideration of the impact on those having experienced suicidal ideation, or of those who have experienced bereavment via suicide? Just as your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose, harm is a pretty good indicator (not perfect, but pretty good) that there has been a breach of someone's rights. It is reasonable, IMHO, to then take steps to minimize or prevent a reoccurrence.
Lar
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 22, 2003, at 8:06:54
In reply to Re: For Lar and everyone...crime 'magnitude' » shar, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 7:01:27
Can we not turn this into a post about BPD. I work darn hard to try and remove the stigma associated with BPD. Its a nasty label to be given, as it comes with such connotations, and people have pre-conceived ideas about how you are going to behave because of it.
I'm BPD, and have never acted in these ways. Yes, people do, but its not only people with BPD. And Kristen never claimed to have BPD (though the signs are there, it could be any number of other things).
So please leave BPD out of this. How are proffesionals meant to take us seriously if they read peoples peers talking like this.
Nikki
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 8:24:12
In reply to BPD, posted by NikkiT2 on November 22, 2003, at 8:06:54
> Can we not turn this into a post about BPD. I work darn hard to try and remove the stigma associated with BPD. Its a nasty label to be given, as it comes with such connotations, and people have pre-conceived ideas about how you are going to behave because of it.
I'm sorry, Nikki. I understand the stereotype is burdensome, and often unwarranted. But we use labels as a kind of short-hand. It saves a lot of words. I wasn't the one who first linked Kristen and BPD, but it is not inconsistent to link them. Another poster has asked for compassion *because* of the link with parasuicidal behaviour. It's a sharp sword, and it cuts both ways.
> I'm BPD, and have never acted in these ways. Yes, people do, but its not only people with BPD. And Kristen never claimed to have BPD (though the signs are there, it could be any number of other things).
Just trying to save words, honestly. And I'm sorry, honestly.
> So please leave BPD out of this. How are proffesionals meant to take us seriously if they read peoples peers talking like this.
>
> NikkiYou lost me.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 10:12:33
In reply to BPD, posted by NikkiT2 on November 22, 2003, at 8:06:54
That's what I was trying to say, Nikki. A label might be useful to understand what someont is feeling. But it shouldn't be used to lump everyone with that label together. There are lots of people with Borderline Personality Disorder on these boards, a lot of recovering people with BPD, and a lot of people like me who've never been diagnosed but certainly have a lot of the internal characteristics, who work really really hard to not let our internal pain cause pain to others.
It might lead me to have compassion, but I would never ever extend my expectations of behavior to an entire group of people.
(Lar, you've said you have had two people with BPD in your life, and that might influence your views. But I could name on this board a number of people who have identified themselves as having or having had BPD who are consistently concerned for the feelings of others and are consistently helpful and supportive. Let's not make it into an us vs. them? And I wouldn't even be sure which side of the stadium to sit on. So let's not do that?)
Posted by jay on November 22, 2003, at 10:58:05
In reply to 4/5 year ban for fake suicide postings??, posted by ace on November 18, 2003, at 20:27:13
I think there is one thing we have to remember here: the majority of us (especially 'regulars') have had our share of both 'pbc's and blocks. We don't want to develop a "mob rules" mentality, trying to hoist year-long blocks on people who likely have had blocks just as long as many of us have had. The real bottom line is, this is Dr. Bob's board, and he will determine what is and what isn't appropriate. I tried an experiment in 'democracy' on another board, and it didn't work out, period. (Besides me getting flack from many for the event.) No single one of us are absolute, innocent 'angels' when it comes to most things on this board, so let's try to keep it's supportive nature in mind.Just my .02 cents
Jay
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
In reply to Re: BPD, posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 10:12:33
> That's what I was trying to say, Nikki. A label might be useful to understand what someont is feeling. But it shouldn't be used to lump everyone with that label together. There are lots of people with Borderline Personality Disorder on these boards, a lot of recovering people with BPD, and a lot of people like me who've never been diagnosed but certainly have a lot of the internal characteristics, who work really really hard to not let our internal pain cause pain to others.
Ok. My reference was ill advised. I know you know you're not your label. I know you know that a diagnosis is not predictive of behaviour. I hope you know I know that, too.
Are my comments still valid, without any reference to diagnosis?
> It might lead me to have compassion, but I would never ever extend my expectations of behavior to an entire group of people.
Nor did I intend my reference to one behaviour associated with a particular diagnostic category to generalize to all people diagnosed as such.
> (Lar, you've said you have had two people with BPD in your life, and that might influence your views.I am sure it does. Both displayed parasuicide.
> But I could name on this board a number of people who have identified themselves as having or having had BPD who are consistently concerned for the feelings of others and are consistently helpful and supportive. Let's not make it into an us vs. them?
I never meant it to be one.
> And I wouldn't even be sure which side of the stadium to sit on. So let's not do that?)
Ok.
Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
Lar
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2003, at 12:52:24
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
>
> Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
>
> LarThanks, Lar. And certainly not. Contrary to what it may seem from my posts, I actually fall in empathy towards the side of those harmed by false reporting. Parasuicidal threats I'm more iffy about. I know there are those who are angry at people who express suicidal intent here on the board, but I'm not one of them. Expressions of suicidal intent are frequently quite sincere, and I would hate to ban them from the boards. I even hate to see them discouraged by the anger that sometimes results from them. I know I find myself censoring my musings on the matter. False reporting, by definition, would be less sincere. And Dr. Bob says they are a civility violation, and I'm glad of that.
Posted by noa on November 22, 2003, at 16:55:42
In reply to Re: BPD » NikkiT2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 8:24:12
I have only read a handful of the messages on this long thread, but I just wanted to say something that may be simplistic and obvious, but how I feel about responding to certain posts or posters basically boils down to this:
It is very hard to help someone when they reject help or refuse to get the kind of help they need.
I suppose this also means that there may be times when I know I cannot help someone because the kind of help I can offer is either not the right kind of help that they need or is clearly not enough.Further, although it is always hard to know for sure on the internet just how serious or how genuine a person's cry for help is, I know that for myself, if I feel someone has not been honest about this, then I do not feel I can help or continue to interact with that person.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 17:27:41
In reply to Re: offering help, posted by noa on November 22, 2003, at 16:55:42
> I have only read a handful of the messages on this long thread, but I just wanted to say something that may be simplistic and obvious, but how I feel about responding to certain posts or posters basically boils down to this:
>
> It is very hard to help someone when they reject help or refuse to get the kind of help they need.
>
>
> I suppose this also means that there may be times when I know I cannot help someone because the kind of help I can offer is either not the right kind of help that they need or is clearly not enough.
>
> Further, although it is always hard to know for sure on the internet just how serious or how genuine a person's cry for help is, I know that for myself, if I feel someone has not been honest about this, then I do not feel I can help or continue to interact with that person.If you'll forgive me for tagging onto the end of your fine post....
One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome. I'm stuck sharing the environment, even if it is my choice not to do so with a particular individual. The effects propogate outwards like ripples in a pond, whether I like it or not. I don't think I should have to ostracize myself to protect myself from outside instigation, but without Bob's input, that's the only choice I really have.
Lar
Posted by stjames on November 22, 2003, at 17:56:50
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - - Re: ban for suicide postings?? » stjames, posted by Elle2021 on November 21, 2003, at 21:39:48
I think it is a good idea to keep in mind that we are not obligated to read and respond to each and every post that comes our way. If I see a post that looks tiggering or upsetting, I don't read it. I have done it before, I will continue to do it. God bless you.
> Elle
>When one person turns the whole board into chaos,
how I to avoid a post ? I think you are minimizing the hurt and disorder that is caused by this.
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 19:13:47
In reply to Re: BPD » NikkiT2, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 8:24:12
>Another poster has asked for compassion *because* of the link with parasuicidal behaviour.
That was me Lar and I still stand by my original statement.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 19:16:34
In reply to ban for suicide postings??, posted by stjames on November 22, 2003, at 17:56:50
> When one person turns the whole board into chaos,how I to avoid a post ? I think you are minimizing the hurt and disorder that is caused by this.
I'm sorry if I have made you feel that way. I am not trying to minimize how much her actions have hurt you or other posters.
Elle
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2003, at 19:26:32
In reply to Re: offering help » noa, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 17:27:41
> Need we extend our empathy to those practising parasuicidal threats and false reporting, and fail to extend empathy to those who cannot help but bear witness to it?
No one is required to extend their empathy (or even reply) to anyone else. But if they post, they need to be civil. Expressions of empathy aren't necessarily civil (from someone else's perspective).
> One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome.
No, but you can not read their posts...
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:06:15
In reply to Re: BPD » Larry Hoover, posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 19:13:47
> >Another poster has asked for compassion *because* of the link with parasuicidal behaviour.
>
> That was me Lar and I still stand by my original statement.
> ElleI know. I didn't want to center you out.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:11:30
In reply to Re: offering help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2003, at 19:26:32
> > One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome.
>
> No, but you can not read their posts...
>
> BobI think your solution is demonstrably flawed. If it was that simple, there would be nobody hurt by any of this. Moreover, as I said, it spreads like ripples across a pond. We're like objects dangling from a mobile, each quite separate, yet attached. You can't move one object without all the objects moving. A big event cannot be ignored by simply turning one's head.
Lar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 20:13:46
In reply to Re: BPD, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:06:15
> I know. I didn't want to center you out.
:) Thanks for being considerate. I don't mind though, if I said it, then I ought to have the guts to stand by it.
Despite our opposing points, I think your a sweet guy Lar.
Elle
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:27:09
In reply to Re: BPD » Larry Hoover, posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 20:13:46
> > I know. I didn't want to center you out.
>
> :) Thanks for being considerate. I don't mind though, if I said it, then I ought to have the guts to stand by it.
>
> Despite our opposing points, I think your a sweet guy Lar.
> ElleAww... <blush>
I appreciate your generous contributions to this discussion.
Lar
Posted by Elle2021 on November 22, 2003, at 20:32:03
In reply to Re: BPD » Elle2021, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:27:09
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2003, at 0:10:10
In reply to Re: offering help » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 20:11:30
> > > One of the problems in this Babble environment is that I have no choice about continuing to interact....not really....because I can't do something as obvious as activating a killfile, or blocking the sender from appearing on my computer, or blocking threads once I identify them as troublesome.
> >
> > No, but you can not read their posts...
>
> I think your solution is demonstrably flawed. If it was that simple, there would be nobody hurt by any of this. Moreover, as I said, it spreads like ripples across a pond. We're like objects dangling from a mobile, each quite separate, yet attached. You can't move one object without all the objects moving. A big event cannot be ignored by simply turning one's head.Feeling hurt is one thing. Yes, events will cause ripples. But continuing to interact is another. Posters have some ability, unlike components of a mobile, to control how affected they are by ripples -- and to what extent they propagate them.
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 7:44:35
In reply to Re: offering help, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2003, at 0:10:10
> Feeling hurt is one thing. Yes, events will cause ripples. But continuing to interact is another. Posters have some ability, unlike components of a mobile, to control how affected they are by ripples -- and to what extent they propagate them.
>
> BobIf matters were as simple as you imply, you wouldn't use blocks. They would be unnecessary.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2003, at 17:08:05
In reply to Re: offering help » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2003, at 7:44:35
> > Feeling hurt is one thing. Yes, events will cause ripples. But continuing to interact is another. Posters have some ability, unlike components of a mobile, to control how affected they are by ripples -- and to what extent they propagate them.
>
> If matters were as simple as you imply, you wouldn't use blocks. They would be unnecessary.I didn't mean to imply that it was simple...
Bob
Posted by ramsea on November 25, 2003, at 8:30:30
In reply to Re: parasuicidal threats and false reporting » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2003, at 11:45:08
Is this a question for everyone or just between you two? If it's meant to be more private, sorry for interrupting. I have known so-called borderline personality disorder diagnosed people, and am sad to say that three of them are no longer with us--while they did have parasuicide incidents, they were actually bent on going for the "real thing" too. BPD has a high successful suicide rate.
Sometimes a BPD person who parasuicides is considered to be practicing for the real thing. Sometimes they don't intend fatality at that point. They are often treated to great social castigation for their parasuicide behavior. Now, as a person who has know BPD diagnosed persons very well, I can agree Larry that it is VERY hard on the family/friend. It tries loved ones patientce and tolerance very deeply.
Like any other severe illness (and my mind believes they are ill, not bad), we can end up just wishing they'd never come into our lives, because it is so hard on us. And then that feeling just makes us feel horribly guilty. So it can be a lose/lose situation. I have tremendous empathy for relatives/friends of a BPD dx person who engages in parasuicidal acts.
It seems some pdocs believe that BPD is actually a form of both PTSD and bipolar II. If that is the case the person who "fakes" may be prepping for the real thing. On the other hand, such a person may have other difficulties. Overly dramatic, theatrical persons might do this, or a very bored, very unsatisfied person. The behavior may have nothing to do with a psychiatric problem.
Of course everyone in this thread is aware of these possibilities. But I am always hooked when people start mentioning borderline PD and a troublesome behavior in the same breath. Especially if the implication is that there is something fakey about the person and rather wickedly manipulative. In MHO BPD is a mistaken label. It covers too much ground. It's too female identified. If there is a problem with rapid cycling mood swings, sounds bipolar to me. If there are flashbacks, etc, of trauma/abuse in background, I agree with those pdocs who look to PTSD. If there's a lot of antisocial behavior going on, as in pretending to die and so forth, it seems we should call it antisocial and not "borderline", as it is possibly more descriptive? I mean, it strikes me as more of an antisocial thing than parasuicide, as a so-called parasuicide act usually involves dangerous, risky begavior that could maim, injure or kill the person even if they didn't want it. This particular incident reminds me of a friend of mine who told everyone she was dying of cancer and kept it up for awhile with dire consequences. Her "diagnosis" is antisocial PD. She was also abused most horrifcally in childhood (documented in court records).
Outside of serious personality disorde or mental illness, I suspect some people are troublesome, stressed out and gameplaying to an extreme and require serious therapy.
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