![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on November 26, 2002, at 4:53:08
In reply to Re: only a PBC, posted by Dr. Bob on November 26, 2002, at 4:14:31
Dr. Bob, I understand your reluctance to delete posts. However, I also know that you do so when you think a thread has gotten out of hand. In my opinion, that entire thread was out of hand from the first post by alphamale and should be deleted starting with his first post.
I hesitate to bring additional attention to a thread that I find rather upsetting. I don't believe that anyone who reads this board could possibly see any of it as falling within the civility guidelines, so I'm not sure that it serves any purpose in clarifying limits. I don't see how leaving it up helps anyone, and it hurts everyone involved. Indeed, such an exchange can be upsetting even to the reader. For some reason, I have always felt safer on the board knowing that there were limits to what could be said. Leaving posts like these up while blocking posters for one week makes me feel a bit less safe here. You've deleted posts before, and ones that were less inflammatory than these.
I haven't been around long enough to know if there has been precedent for this personal sort of exchange on the board, but I don't believe it belongs on Psychobabble. (BTW, I doubt that anyone would object to being deprived of the ability to contribute to this particular process.)
At the very least, could you blank out parts of all posts involved?
Just my opinion, and I realize that others will have different ones.
Dinah
Posted by Tabitha on November 26, 2002, at 8:00:00
In reply to Psycho Babble thread..Deletion?, posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2002, at 0:10:53
Like she said here and on PB, he's her housemate. She did not even know he was the one responsible for the un-civil post toward Mr Scott until after he had posted twice. If you read her first reply to Alphamale it's clear she disapproved of his post and was defending Mr Scott. Mr Scott mistakenly thought thought they were the same person ONLY because Alphamale repeated things Gabbi had told him in confidence. He jumped to the wrong conclusion, and so did you.
Of course they have the same IP address, they're probably using the same computer, but they're not the same person.
Not only did you block her for a false reason, but you validated the false accusation that Gabbi was posting back and forth under 2 names, then lying about it. That's just plain awful. In the context of that thread, where Gabbi was horribly insulted and had her privacy violated, yet remained at least 98% civil, it's more than awful.
Gabbi has made tremendous contribution to the babble community, with her directness, humor, support, understanding, knowledge, and quirkiness. She is much-loved, and deserves better treatment.
Posted by wendy b. on November 26, 2002, at 22:11:18
In reply to Re: only a PBC » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2002, at 4:53:08
Dinah,
I agree with everything you've said here, and you've made a very strong argument for why these posts should be deleted. And I think we might want to wonder what is going on with Bob when he is so blatantly inconsistent. Why would ANYone want those comments about Gabbi (whose posts and humor I enjoy and appreciate very much) to stay up for public viewing? It's really not nice or fair to leave them like that...
> Dr. Bob, I understand your reluctance to delete posts. However, I also know that you do so when you think a thread has gotten out of hand. In my opinion, that entire thread was out of hand from the first post by alphamale and should be deleted starting with his first post.
>
> I hesitate to bring additional attention to a thread that I find rather upsetting. I don't believe that anyone who reads this board could possibly see any of it as falling within the civility guidelines, so I'm not sure that it serves any purpose in clarifying limits.Absolutely. We don't really need a guide to know when comments are beyond the pale (slanderous, accusatory, misogynistic)...
>I don't see how leaving it up helps anyone, and it hurts everyone involved. Indeed, such an exchange can be upsetting even to the reader. For some reason, I have always felt safer on the board knowing that there were limits to what could be said. Leaving posts like these up while blocking posters for one week makes me feel a bit less safe here.
Anyone else want to chime in here? We've had several people worry about safety issues in the past (most recently judy1 when trouble brought up child abuse in the way that she did), and Bob has rushed in to say he's sorry, that he wouldn't want people to feel that way, that he's concerned about the site being a safe place. So, Bob: people are feeling unsafe (I'm sure Dinah and I aren't the only ones). What are you going to do?
> You've deleted posts before, and ones that were less inflammatory than these.Spoken by someone who has been around a long time, who knows the rules, and who mostly supports Bob's rules.
> I haven't been around long enough to know if there has been precedent for this personal sort of exchange on the board, but I don't believe it belongs on Psychobabble. (BTW, I doubt that anyone would object to being deprived of the ability to contribute to this particular process.)
>
> At the very least, could you blank out parts of all posts involved?
>
> Just my opinion, and I realize that others will have different ones.Not so different. Kindness and sympathy are valued here, by most people. And when Bob SAYS he believes one thing about civility, and then does another, I can't help but think he has some other agenda...
Leaving these posts is about as cruel (not quite) as the comments he left on the board about Sar's suicide (the ones that denigrated her - again, Dinah, I know how you feel, you don't want to bring up such unpleasantness, and I don't either, but we do need to discuss it...)Dinah, I appreciate your measured and careful response...
best,
Wendy
Posted by Jonathan on November 27, 2002, at 0:45:57
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, Gabbi is not Alphamale, posted by Tabitha on November 26, 2002, at 8:00:00
Tabitha wrote:
> Of course [Gabbi and alphamale] have the same IP address, they're probably using the same computer, but they're not the same person.I think it may be worth adding that, if they are using the same computer, they may also be sharing the same cookies. On Unix machines and the networked Windows machines you are most likely to have used at work (running NT, Win2000 or XP Pro), each user has his/her own account and preferences, browser history and cookies; I don't know about MacOS, but have heard that current versions are built on a variant of Unix. The older versions of MS Windows more common on home computers, Win95, 98 and ME (I'm not sure about XP Home) have User Profiles, which would enable each user to have his/her own cookies, disabled by default("Expert Guide to Windows 98" by Mark Minasi, p. 304). There is also a difference between the two most popular browsers: Netscape can maintain different user profiles independently of the operating system, whilst MSIE cannot.
I'm sure you know more than I do about using cookie and/or IP information to determine whether two posters are the same person, and prefer to keep your methods private. I thought you might, however, have never experienced the above limitation of MSIE on non-networked machines running Windows 9x, which might make two users sharing a machine look like the same person using two posting names. I shall be pleased to discuss this further with you by email if you wish.
Tabitha has already addressed the content of alphamale's posts and Gabbi's reply to the first.
I find alphamale's writing style significantly different from Gabbi's. For example, two sentences in his first post end with a vocative without the preceding comma, an idiosyncrasy I was unable to find in a large sample of Gabbi's recent posts ("... like you Mr. Scott." and "Stand tall my friend."); the full-stop is omitted from 4 out of 12 sentences in his first post and 2 out of 4 in his second; he makes more use than Gabbi of very short sentences (or phrases serving as sentences), each on a line of its own; and, although we have such a short sample of alphamale's prose, I see so many words and phrases which I feel Gabbi would be most unlikely to choose: "unmitigated gall", "stand tall", "be proud", "be glad", "pansy-ass excuse", "mysoginistic ass (sic, twice - I bet Gabbi would have spelt it correctly!) We babblers are so genteel that your search engine found the word "ass", which alphamale uses in both of his posts, in no fewer than 184 posts from the first six months of this year: none of these was written by Gabbi!
Even though I only know Gabbi through reading her posts here, I am convinced that she did not write alphamale's posts.
Jonathan.
Posted by Dreamerz on November 27, 2002, at 5:28:28
In reply to Re: only a PBC » Dinah, posted by wendy b. on November 26, 2002, at 22:11:18
Kindness and sympathy are valued here, by most people. And when Bob SAYS he believes one thing about civility, and then does another, I can't help but think he has some other agenda...
This is making me paranoid..but...
> Leaving these posts is about as cruel (not quite) as the comments he left on the board about Sar's suicide (the ones that denigrated her -
Not forgotten...
Maybe I'm melodramatic...it's hard to see /trust whats going on in these brief written threads..I always have benefit of doubt because who am I to judge when I have never met/or know what other things go on in someones life..so I avoid conflict..try to place everyone on same level..and strive for understanding..maybe I'm dense and not seeing it..
There's enough conflict going on in the world outside..the fact that doc has boundries makes it difficult for us- makes him seem like the iceman..no ones without fault
I'm not defending the doc or dissagreeing with members or even joining in dispute..infact why I'm writing this I have no clue--maybe I'm tired of it all now.
Nothings perfect...but can there can be better ways of fixing things without caps and arrows?The doc can learn hopefully as well as us about how to steer this weird community.it'll be fine with occasional rough seas..as is natural
Hell , I'm off to play some tunes and clean this crappy apartment.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2002, at 6:03:51
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, Gabbi is not Alphamale » Dr. Bob, posted by Jonathan on November 27, 2002, at 0:45:57
I'm not sdaying gabbi is Alphamale or what ever..
BUT... I have bene known to post annonomously on other sites abut issues I didn't want connected back to me. I know That the people on the sites would recognise my typing style. Its easy to do... its how I recognise my internet troll.
My point is, that when I am trying to post so no one will recognise me, I change my style. I don't use the "..."'s that I tend to use alot, I change my punctuation, and don't use the kind of words I normally do. And I double and triple check to my normal typos.
You can't prove someones innocence on the net by looking at their style I;m afraid. Just as you can't by IP address or email address.
I've been duped, tricked, and conned by people so many times on the net, I trust virtually no one. I *do* trust those I know well (my ASH family etc), but no one else.
Nikki
Posted by BeardedLady on November 27, 2002, at 7:29:29
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, Gabbi is not Alphamale » Jonathan, posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2002, at 6:03:51
I consider myself an expert, somewhat, on this. I can tell which papers were written by my students and which were written by their proofreaders because their style completely changes. You can be more dilligent in your typing, and you can use words you wouldn't use, but it's what slips by you that gets you caught.
First, alot is not one word; it's two. So if you're going to disguise yourself, you may not know to change that because many people think it's one word. Likewise, a lot of the errors you make will be ones you make because you don't they're errors, in which case you won't change them.
That said, Gabbi's and Alphamales speech patterns and vocabularies are entirely different. I don't think Gabbi could change them.
And Bob has made it a point in the past to delete some offending posts--didn't he delete the Dr. Boob posts? However, he let the offending SAR post stay for a long while, and he let some very ugly things sit here. It seems that it's at his discretion and that most people complain when he deletes, and then the same complain when he doesn't. Is it us? Or is it the stuff he chooses to delete?
Clearly, that which is evil, hurtful, accusatory--as the above post by Mr. Scott is--shouldn't be allowed to sit here for everyone to read. It's slander--and libel, even, against Gabbi.
Right you are, Dinah.
beardy
Posted by mair on November 27, 2002, at 7:49:25
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, Gabbi is not Alphamale » Jonathan, posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2002, at 6:03:51
I don't quite understand your thinking here Bob. Mr. Scott was apparently blocked not for his unconscionable offer to direct us all to pictures of Gabbi, but rather for his subsequent insults. Why wasn't the first post, (which some thought should have been deleted) worthy of stronger and more immediate action?
Because you refused to delete this post (or censure Mr. Scott for this specific post), and then went on to block Gabbi, I can only infer that you didn't see Mr. Scott's post as so bad because you accepted as true his assertion that Gabbi and alphamale were the same person. You have, on countless times, censured people for expressing legitimate gripes in an uncivil way. This should be no different. Even if Mr Scott was right, his offer to "expose" Gabbi was wholly inappropriate. Also, if Gabbi and alphamale are the same person, maybe the block is called for. But if they are not (as Gabbi insists), then the block was inexcusably harmful, coming as it did on the heels of Gabbi becoming very much the "accused" all for the sin of trying to step in and lend some civility to the discussion between alphamale and Mr. Scott. I think you need to weigh this before you choose to believe the unproven assertions of any poster. "If you cannot be certain that you are right, don't act as if you are right" might be a good rule to follow in similar circumstances.
Others here have raised very legitimate issues of safety and you have very visibly rallied to the defense of those who have felt "unsafe" even when those feelings were in response to threads that did not involve them personally. Here the threat to Gabbi's safety was all too direct and exceedingly personal and frankly threatening. Why is she entitled to less protection?
Mair
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2002, at 7:50:20
In reply to hard to hide your style » NikkiT2, posted by BeardedLady on November 27, 2002, at 7:29:29
Oh beardie... I wasn't saying it was or wasn't Gabbi... I was just pointing out what i do.
As for Alot... there was a recently a big discussion on this on another web site I use... I emailed a Professor of English, and was told that, in UK spelling, Alot is perfectly acceptable. US spelling uses it as two words, but, it seems, UK spelling does not.
I don't claim to have perfect grammer or punctuation, in fact, I know mines leaves alot to be desired most of the time, but I'm a computer geek, and haven't studied English language beyond 16 years old.
When I *want* I can sound alot more intelligent than I usually do, and use many different words to what I would normally use.
I posted an "anon" post over the weekend, and only one person, out of many that know me incredibly well, picke dup on it being me, and that was only because she knew the history to what I was talking about.I try, as much as possible, to be *me* on the internet, and as such, I tend to type as I would talk.
Oh, and I never write anything by hand!!!
Nikki
Posted by wendy b. on November 27, 2002, at 8:43:11
In reply to Truly Outrageous Dr Bob, posted by mair on November 27, 2002, at 7:49:25
> Others here have raised very legitimate issues of safety and you have very visibly rallied to the defense of those who have felt "unsafe" even when those feelings were in response to threads that did not involve them personally. Here the threat to Gabbi's safety was all too direct and exceedingly personal and frankly threatening. Why is she entitled to less protection?
>
> Mair
Perfectly expressed, Mair. It would be appropriate if Bob would reply to our comments, but I see nothing, no respect, no tolerance, no judicious decision-making, no going back to revise, because everything he does must always be right the first time... It's so ugly here with those posts left up...And sorry Dreamer, I adore you, but I don't operate the way you seem to be able to - 'this is only a web site.' I'd rather think it's a community of human beings who are trying to >help< each other, purportedly... Bob's actions belie this stated purpose....
Wendy
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2002, at 8:45:36
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, Gabbi is not Alphamale » Dr. Bob, posted by Jonathan on November 27, 2002, at 0:45:57
> I have always felt safer on the board knowing that there were limits to what could be said. Leaving posts like these up while blocking posters for one week makes me feel a bit less safe here.
Well, I want it to be safe here, but it isn't always. And I think people who visit should get an accurate idea of what it's like here. Uncivil posts do get through, and I don't want to make it look like they don't.
> At the very least, could you blank out parts of all posts involved?
>
> DinahThose involved can email me if information about them was posted without their permission, how about that?
> you validated the false accusation that Gabbi was posting back and forth under 2 names, then lying about it.
>
> TabithaThat actually wasn't why I blocked that posting name. We're trying to work this out. And hopefully, we'll be able to. Thanks for your patience...
> the above limitation of MSIE on non-networked machines running Windows 9x ... might make two users sharing a machine look like the same person using two posting names. I shall be pleased to discuss this further with you by email if you wish.
>
> Jonathan.Hmm, so is there any way to distinguish those two scenarios? If you think it's better to email me, please do...
Bob
Posted by rayww on November 27, 2002, at 10:17:08
In reply to Re: Psycho Babble thread, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2002, at 8:45:36
> Well, I want it to be safe here, but it isn't always. And I think people who visit should get an accurate idea of what it's like here. Uncivil posts do get through, and I don't want to make it look like they don't.
>Bob, if there was a child molestor in your neighborhood and you were vulnerable to attack, would you want someone to sweep the evidence under the carpet?
The mood swing is what the mental disorders are all about. Let's not ignore the symptoms by sweeping the ugly parts away. Face it and deal. We all need help and understanding, and that's why we're here.
If three people are in a kerfuffel, the rest can be supportive, or else ignore. By adding fuel to the fire, it keeps it alive. I would never have read the thread if this discussion about it hadn't taken place.
It helps to know who people are. I think this site is all about understanding.
On another board (webhealing.com) a person can delete their own post.
I'm not sure how I feel about your blocking policy. I've never seen it done before, but I'm not a person who sits at the computer all day either. (well some days I do :)
As soon as we try to play God, we find out all too soon that judgement is best left up to Him. Only One with pure understanding can act as judge. However, you are the "god" of this forum, therefore, it is up to you to decide. Though we may question your decisions, you have the right to make them. Many counsel God also, and tell Him what they think of death, suffering, and their personal global positioning system.
Keep up the good work. (I want to write god work, but not appropriate). Sorry if I'm being me again.
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2002, at 11:03:05
In reply to me again » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on November 27, 2002, at 10:17:08
Most baords I use allow people to delete their own posts.. I know I have posted stuff I have wished I could remove here.
We are all memebers here, and each message is linked to that persons membership, so would it be all that hard to add this feature??
Nikki
Posted by oracle on November 27, 2002, at 11:24:34
In reply to Good idea, posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2002, at 11:03:05
> Most baords I use allow people to delete their own posts.. I know I have posted stuff I have wished I could remove here.
>
> We are all memebers here, and each message is linked to that persons membership, so would it be all that hard to add this feature??
>
> NikkiSince we agreeed to transfer of rights to our posts, they are not ours to control anymore.
They are Dr Bobs to control and use, delete or
change as he see fit.
Posted by dreamerz on November 27, 2002, at 11:37:22
In reply to Re: Truly Outrageous Dr Bob » mair, posted by wendy b. on November 27, 2002, at 8:43:11
I did put a ?
Posted by dreamerz on November 27, 2002, at 12:01:12
In reply to Re: Truly Outrageous Dr Bob » wendy b., posted by dreamerz on November 27, 2002, at 11:37:22
The only reason i felt i had to read these threads is because i was joking about gabbi in psb and didn't know what was going on..and that i may offend .. i'd have stayed out of it and now I'm staying out of it..
...its frustrating enough to get what people mean typed here --it can be easily misunderstood...I know it's peoples lives infact I do believe my supportiveness has just about expired--I am becoming a sour sour puss.
..KAPUT..done...happy holidays now excuse me while I scream...
Posted by IsoM on November 27, 2002, at 13:47:00
In reply to Re: Psycho Babble thread, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2002, at 8:45:36
I tend to feel upset by your policies but I do try to be forgiving, hoping that problems will be resolved, but this is outrageous.
I've read over the posts on PB, PB Faith, & here for the last few days, watching & waiting, & vainly hoping that decency & common sense would prevail - that you would be able to tell the difference between right & wrong that any 10 year old child could see. But it's not going to happen, is it? It's your way or no way. I can't begin to express what I think of your rigidity in polite terms or without expressive hand & facial gestures, so I won't even try. I know others know how I think & probably, you're the only one who doesn't. I find it incredible that a practicing psychiatrist would ever be SO inflexible!All I can say is I'm **totally disgusted** with the way Gabbi was treated, with the inability to see the silliness & humour in Wendy's post about being a blood drinker & let it be, & with the inability to delete certain very offensive posts of others but the quick willingness to delete anything offensive about you.
What is it? Do you see yourself as the last bastion of internet civility out there that you must guard against at all costs? Or is this more about you? I think the answer's obvious to most.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2002, at 14:16:27
In reply to Re: Psycho Babble thread » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on November 27, 2002, at 13:47:00
Iso M,
You wrote,[...inability to see the humor in Wendy's post...] [...I think that the answer is obvious to most.]
Wendy's post said that she was a [satanist]...]
Now if that is [funny], then I also am unable to see [the humor] in it.
Satan is called the deciever, the tempter, the liar, the slandrer, the perverter of The Word of God,
the opposer to God's work, an adversary, and other names in many religions. The faith board excludes those things that are advesarial to God, such as atheism and agnosticism, for they do not support God. Now if someone wrote on the faith board that they belonged to a racial supremist group, and said that they were a racist,I believe that that would not be [humorous] any more than if a person said that they were a satanist on the faith board. I agree with Dr Bob in this respect to flagging the post in question, for if the baricades are not put up now on the road, then all hose type of posts on the faith board could travel unapposed and make a hazardous road of the faith board.
Lou
Posted by oracle on November 27, 2002, at 14:24:37
In reply to Re: Psycho Babble thread » IsoM, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2002, at 14:16:27
Now if someone wrote on the faith board that they belonged to a racial supremist group, and said that they were a racist,
What happens if they post and say they are Baptist ?
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2002, at 14:44:02
In reply to Re: Psycho Babble thread, posted by oracle on November 27, 2002, at 14:24:37
oracle,
You wrote, [what happens if they post and say they are a Baptist...]
There have been posters here declaring their religious affiliations. I have seen posters declaring that thy were Catholic, Morman,Jewish,Witnesses for Jahovah, Wiccain, Budahist, Zen, and others and nothing has happenend to them. Is there something that I am missing in your question?
Lou
Posted by Dinah on November 27, 2002, at 14:49:03
In reply to Good idea, posted by NikkiT2 on November 27, 2002, at 11:03:05
I think if Dr. Bob hesitates to delete posts himself, he would be extremely unlikely to allow us to delete our own.
I also think it would lead to problems. Someone could post something provocative, wait for a response, then delete the original post. This would lead the responding poster to look bad, and leave everyone generally confused. For the most part, I agree with Dr. Bob's policy of preserving threads intact.
I just think exceptions should be made, and I think Dr. Bob's compromise of allowing the people involved on this thread to request deletion of certain information is a fair one.
Posted by Dinah on November 27, 2002, at 15:02:12
In reply to me again » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on November 27, 2002, at 10:17:08
Hi Ray,
I think Dr. Bob has proposed a reasonable solution to this particular problem. And I was reluctant to bring up this at all for fear of drawing attention to the thread, as I stated in my post.
Moreover, I don't think all objectionable or uncivil posts should be removed. However, a situation like this seems like two offenses. The original offense is the posting of an offensive post. The second offense is those in power allowing such a post to remain in public view. I think Dr. Bob sees that, and that is why he is allowing the posters involved to request deletion. It's like if something nasty was written about someone on a wall. Writing it is wrong, but not cleaning it off is also wrong. That's not sweeping graffiti under the rug, it's just simple thoughtfulness.
Also, I appreciate the fact that Dr. Bob shows us the honor and dignity of holding us accountable for our actions, mood disorders or no.
Posted by Tabitha on November 27, 2002, at 15:06:16
In reply to Re: Good idea, posted by Dinah on November 27, 2002, at 14:49:03
>
> I just think exceptions should be made, and I think Dr. Bob's compromise of allowing the people involved on this thread to request deletion of certain information is a fair one.I second that. We all expect anonymity here, unless we choose to post personal information, which very few do. If someone should post personal information (or worse yet, false information) without our permission, either accidentally or maliciously, we ought to be able to have it removed from the board.
Posted by oracle on November 27, 2002, at 15:26:20
In reply to Re: Psycho Babble thread » oracle, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2002, at 14:44:02
Is there something that I am missing in your question?
> Lou
Quite a bit, Lou.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2002, at 15:33:28
In reply to Re: Psycho Babble thread, posted by oracle on November 27, 2002, at 15:26:20
oracle,
You wrote,[quite a bit, Lou].
Could you reveal what I am missing in your post that said,[what if they say that they are a Baptist...]? If you could, then I could be better able to communicate with you in regards to understanding your question about [what if they post that they are a Baptist?].
Thanks,
Lou
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