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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 75. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
Ok, I am probably doing something stupid here. But I found it deeply distasteful to be the subject of post(s) debating whether I was an attention seeking faker or merely too crazy to post on this mental health forum. So I'm going to be honest.
I come from a family of parents who genuinely hate each other. I took on the role (and my parents allowed me to take on the role) of peacemaker. Which meant that I had to hide my fear, distress, and sometimes anger to mediate between them. Moreover, I had to be a good little girl so as not to cause more conflict in the household.
When my life fell apart at age 11, in large part by being designated the target in middle school, but other things too, I was angry as hell. I wanted the adults in my life to protect me and I acted out, way out, to try to express the depths of my pain. That got me nowhere I wanted to be. So I learned to divide off the part of me that was scared and enraged, and learned to behave in a very rational manner, effectively functioning on two very different levels.
My husband is a great wonderful guy, but not particularly emotionally sensitive. I learned that it was best to be very rational around him too. And once I had my son it was important to me to be a good, patient, not angry mom.
In fact you might notice on this forum that the angrier I get, the more intellectualized my posts get.
The result is a pressure cooker. As stress adds on, pressure builds. As pressure builds, urges, obsessions, images wrap themselves around my mind. There are two effective ways to deal with them. One is to talk about them, laugh at them if I can, and thus reduce the pressure. The other is to act on them. That's really the best way, but darn it, good little me promised my therapist not to do that, and good little me tries to keep her promises. Fortunately he recognizes the effort and forgives my occasional lapses.
Of course, it would be best to learn better coping skills so that the pressure doesn't build. I'm trying to do that, but it's not easy. Medications, for me, are not terribly effective. They seem to work by separating me from my emotions more, which reduces the frequency of my obsessions, but places the pressure higher. I actually self harmed more on SSRI's, and I could see that Risperdal was having a similar effect.
Do I really want to kill myself sometimes? Sure, that's pretty common isn't it? Do I really want to hurt myself sometimes? Sure, it's hard not to want to do something that makes you feel better so quickly. Do I act on my impulses? I don't kill myself because it would hurt my son. I try not to self injure because I promised.
Self injury is not "crazy" and self injurers do not have to be locked away, or even medicated out of their humanity.
For further information on self injury, I recommend the following site:
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:47:57
In reply to SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
Hmmm. Wanted to clarify that the medicated out of their humanity comment applied to me only, not to anyone else. Since my basic problems stem from separating myself from my emotions, medications that do that even more make me feel like a robot.
On a lighter note, my husband always teases me about saying "I am enraged." in a totally flat emotionless tone (sort of like Kevin Arnold's science teacher on the Wonder Years) so that he is always surprised to find that I really mean it.
Posted by judy1 on January 16, 2003, at 10:16:25
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:47:57
I think that was a great idea to educate some of the newer people here (particularly posting my favorite SI site). I always think it should be obvious that SI and suicide are worlds apart and stem from different emotions, but I'm not sure everyone realizes that. I'm sorry you're still having a difficult time, I find what small improvements I've made with SI came from therapy, not meds. But it is some slow progress. take care of yourself, judy
Posted by justyourlaugh on January 16, 2003, at 10:39:50
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:47:57
dinah,
hi friend-
you are not alone-
however
i had a great childhood,and now i have everyting that alot of people dream of.
i use to si to ground me and keep me focused i thought because nothing was wrong.
now i fall into its trap from time to time-pdoc says to punish myself?
but he is aware si isjust a small part of my mental state and not talked about much at all.
i want death from time to time not from depression but the opposite.and when i am in this state i have no kids..
i think there are more people on this board that
si in many forms-over eating-drinking-not eating enough and so on....
up until 4 years ago(i am 33)i honestly thought that what i did with a knife was unheard of-
i was hospitalized 2 times as ateen for it(went too deep)and they just (docs and parents)just calld me a drunk.i started si at age 10-started drinking at age16?
i wish i was educated about it at the time-i am sure it would have help me believe i was still a good girl....
jyl
Posted by mikhail99 on January 16, 2003, at 10:45:57
In reply to SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
> Ok, I am probably doing something stupid here. But I found it deeply distasteful to be the subject of post(s) debating whether I was an attention seeking faker or merely too crazy to post on this mental health forum. So I'm going to be honest.
Dinah, I'm shocked and disturbed that anyone would suggest that you are attention seeking or not stable enough to post. Your posts are always quite rational, compassionate and extremely helpful. I won't even ask who posted otherwise, we won't go there again... :-)
>
> I come from a family of parents who genuinely hate each other. I took on the role (and my parents allowed me to take on the role) of peacemaker. Which meant that I had to hide my fear, distress, and sometimes anger to mediate between them. Moreover, I had to be a good little girl so as not to cause more conflict in the household.
>
> When my life fell apart at age 11, in large part by being designated the target in middle school, but other things too, I was angry as hell. I wanted the adults in my life to protect me and I acted out, way out, to try to express the depths of my pain. That got me nowhere I wanted to be. So I learned to divide off the part of me that was scared and enraged, and learned to behave in a very rational manner, effectively functioning on two very different levels.
>
> My husband is a great wonderful guy, but not particularly emotionally sensitive. I learned that it was best to be very rational around him too. And once I had my son it was important to me to be a good, patient, not angry mom.I hear you on that one about your husband. I'm trying to train mine to be more emotionally sensitive and for some reason, it's NOT WORKING!!!
>
> In fact you might notice on this forum that the angrier I get, the more intellectualized my posts get.
>
> The result is a pressure cooker. As stress adds on, pressure builds. As pressure builds, urges, obsessions, images wrap themselves around my mind. There are two effective ways to deal with them. One is to talk about them, laugh at them if I can, and thus reduce the pressure. The other is to act on them. That's really the best way, but darn it, good little me promised my therapist not to do that, and good little me tries to keep her promises. Fortunately he recognizes the effort and forgives my occasional lapses.
>
> Of course, it would be best to learn better coping skills so that the pressure doesn't build. I'm trying to do that, but it's not easy. Medications, for me, are not terribly effective. They seem to work by separating me from my emotions more, which reduces the frequency of my obsessions, but places the pressure higher. I actually self harmed more on SSRI's, and I could see that Risperdal was having a similar effect.
>
> Do I really want to kill myself sometimes? Sure, that's pretty common isn't it? Do I really want to hurt myself sometimes? Sure, it's hard not to want to do something that makes you feel better so quickly. Do I act on my impulses? I don't kill myself because it would hurt my son. I try not to self injure because I promised.
>
> Self injury is not "crazy" and self injurers do not have to be locked away, or even medicated out of their humanity.
>
> For further information on self injury, I recommend the following site:
>
> http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/
>
>Dinah, I think I've said before that sometimes it's difficult for me to post about this stuff because I don't share the desire to hurt myself. HOWEVER, when you or someone else posts about having the urge, I just ache for you. Just because I can't imagine doing the same, doesn't mean I can't empathize. I appreciate you providing your history here and I'm sure it was hard to do. I just hope that you know that for those of us who genuinely care about you, you didn't have to do that but also knows that it endears you to us even more.
So you get a big hug from me for laying it out there like that. Take care!
Mik
Posted by Miller on January 16, 2003, at 11:51:26
In reply to SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
Dinah,
I read the post you are referring to. The ONLY reason I did not reply was because you asked for noone to reply.
It was not only distasteful, but a clear form of targeting you in a very disrespectful manner. I certainly won't use the word "uncivil" due to the vague meaning on this forum.
I want you to know, that you are open for discussion about this, that the post in question was WRONG. Not only is it your right to post your feelings, it is a necessity, if you are like most of us. As for the attention-seeking comments that were made, I was appalled. I can honestly say that most of us DO want attention, that is why we keep coming back. I expect posts and even silences to be made for the purpose of attention and support. Therefore, nothing you say will make me see you any differently than I always have.
I see you as a very comforting person to all of us here. Most of us wish we could help you out more. In fact, it seems to me, that you post very little about your struggles. Your way of getting attention, I bet, is to be needed by others. And you are. You are very valuable to me and many others. So was Beardy. Regular support is what we all need.
Please feel free to ALWAYS post your feelings. I, if possible, will always try to see you through the rough times. I appreciate open and honesty. I am sorry other posters don't.
Chocolate and snuggles.
-Miller
Posted by mikhail99 on January 16, 2003, at 11:59:09
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by mikhail99 on January 16, 2003, at 10:45:57
I forgot to click on "add name", I HATE when that happens!
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 12:35:21
In reply to Re: That last from me was for Dinah!, posted by mikhail99 on January 16, 2003, at 11:59:09
I don't know why I let it bother me, but it did. Plus I know there are other self injurers out there, and I have long fought the stigma.
Miller, you perceptive thing you. I have indeed always been able to get more than enough attention being helpful, good at my work (that one's slipping tho), straight A, etc. Don't you dare sell your worth short. The world needs perceptive people like you.
To be honest, I should add that my cyclothymia and obsessive compulsive disorder play a biological role in my problems, and I do take a mood stabilizer. And due to a major shortcoming in the DSM diagnostic methods, every mental health practitioner I've had has rejected borderline personality disorder for me, because except for cutting my behaviors do not fit the profile. But my underlying feelings do, when I can dig down to them. And there is probably some mild neurological deficits in processing stimulus as well, that affect me. I would be the last to say that my problems have no physical component.
Thanks for your support everyone. I do feel better now. But I'll try to be more circumspect in the future anyway. :)
(Great start, huh?)
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 12:36:57
In reply to Re: That last from me was for Dinah!, posted by mikhail99 on January 16, 2003, at 11:59:09
LOL. Thanks for the laugh, Mikhail. I know you know that I always do just the opposite of what I want with that box. It will get me in trouble yet, just wait and see.
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 16, 2003, at 13:39:22
In reply to SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
Dinah,
What a great post... I understand why you had to say it, and you did a really good job of it.
Nikki
Posted by Noa on January 16, 2003, at 16:53:29
In reply to SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
Dinah, I am in awe of your insight, your ability to articulate the complexity of what is going on for you.
I do have a sense of you that you are struggling with the urges and obsessive thoughts, etc. but that you have a good structure around yourself to keep yourself from acting on the urges. And that Babble is a part of that structure--a place where you can vent the feelings so that you don't act on them in a self-harming way. I also see you as incredibly open and honest.
I think, from reading material online and from reading Levenkron's book, "Cutting: Understanding and Overcoming Self-Mutilation" that many who engage in SI behaviors do keep it locked up and secret and don't talk about it, and that SI is not necessarily suicidal, and that some do have the profile similar to yours of the good and helpful one who suppresses their own needs for the sake of others' needs, etc.
Thanks for your explanation and your openness and honesty. I admire you so much.
BTW, I wonder if maybe another factor in the increase in SI behaviors while on SSRIs is that SSRIs are disinhibiting (hence used for social phobia, etc.).
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 17:19:38
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me » Dinah, posted by Noa on January 16, 2003, at 16:53:29
Thanks for understanding, Nikki.
And yes, Noa, I do have a support system in place, and Babble is part of it, while my poor therapist shoulders the lion's share. For me, keeping it quiet is toxic, but I do keep it quiet in most arenas. My husband usually knows nothing about any of it, and certainly my son doesn't. It's amazing how normal I can look while I'm obsessing - a bit distracted perhaps. And of course the worst of it comes in the middle of the night.
I think one of the reasons SSRI's increased the cutting is that "oh well, whatever" effect they had. Fighting the urges didn't seem worth it. I have read (I think somewhere on Babble) that SSRI's have a disinhibiting effect. But I had the odd feeling that it just took more to get my attention on SSRI's. "HEY YOU!!! SOMETHING'S WRONG!!!" had to take a more extreme form.
Posted by OddipusRex on January 16, 2003, at 19:22:35
In reply to Re: Thanks Nikki and Noa, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 17:19:38
Dinah I thought the post on Admin was out of line but I thought you were saying you didn't want any discussion of it so I kept my fingers off the keyboard. I hope you feel better. Post whatever you want. I'm always astonished at people that are brave enough to post such private things. I hope your feelings weren't too hurt (or too yucky a colour:).
Posted by kamikazi_ladybug on January 16, 2003, at 19:26:52
In reply to SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
Ok, I'm going to try this and make sense.
I really tried to find the previous post in question, I have read your posts for so long, I truly don't believe you could ever be an "attention seeking faker" but since I've been back on seroquel I've been in lala land and missed quite a few posts lately..anyway...back to topic here (see I'm trying).
Dinah, when I read your post I would say 93% I felt like it could be my story. I had to hide my fears, distress, and always my angers as a child. If I was heard crying as a child I would get it. I think thats why as an adult I can't cry..which leads to being angry. I was/am a SI and have gone through bout of suicidal ideation and attempts, but just like you I am TRYING to learn coping skills NOW. It has been a long time, I am 30 years old now. Been being treated for 7 years, all those years I wasn't treated whoa, I was a mess, talk about disaster! I'm sure many can relate. But as you said also, learning how to behave in 2 different ways....my way when I had to be good, and my way when I was with myself. I am medicated, which is a so so thing, I have been very hard to treat.
SI I believe is something that I will always have to fight, but I can do it! Suicidal ideation I can beat, I don't want to die, I may think I do but I can't. We have an illness, a terrible illness, people look at us and we look fine, they don't see the chaos inside.
Dinah, I'm so sorry that you didn't get the support you needed. You deserve it!
KL (I'm sorry if this is way off base, blame it on the seroquel)
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 20:56:25
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by OddipusRex on January 16, 2003, at 19:22:35
Thanks, but I don't think it's courage so much as turning over and exposing my soft underbelly. I'm more spaniel puppy than bulldog.
I'm not sure hurt had a color. I'll have to check. Wouldn't it be great if we could all do our emotional color wheels and then post them somewhere? It would be so interesting to see who sees what color as which emotion.
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 21:15:23
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me » Dinah, posted by kamikazi_ladybug on January 16, 2003, at 19:26:52
It's not off base at all. I suspect that's one of the reasons people self injure. The pressure of maintaining the facade. Of course, there are many more reasons. Even for me, sometimes.
I really feel for you, not being allowed to cry. That is horrible. My family didn't discourage that, in fact we were all encouraged to yell along and emote all over. It just that I felt I had to be the calm one (or calmer one anyway) and definitely the peacemaker. But it was more for family stability than from any threat to myself.
I'm so glad you're fighting the urges. It's not an easy thing to do. And it's such a taboo subject mostly. If you ever need a supportive ear, I'd be happy to listen.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 21:16:13
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 21:15:23
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 17, 2003, at 6:04:25
In reply to Re: Thanks Nikki and Noa, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 17:19:38
Dinah,
I also hate SSRI's.. so you're not alone there.. but I have found Zyprexa totally amazing for my suicidal ideation.. it helped lift it within hours of taking my first tablet.. I only take 5mg, and while it hasn't liften the depression at all, the relief of not having constant suicidal thoughts and planning is huge.
I know how exhausting it is to be thinking these so much of the time.
Maybe its something to think about trying.
Nikki x
Posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 8:45:51
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me » Dinah, posted by kamikazi_ladybug on January 16, 2003, at 19:26:52
Dinah--I can completely relate to your post...although
I've never self injured. I can relate to the rage...and I've
_wanted_ and had urges to self injure before...I think the only
reason I haven't is I've sensed the power behind the act, and I knew
if I allowed myself to do it, that it might feel really good and I
would want to keep doing it.
The rage has a real impotent feel to it, which adds to the rage!
So frustrating....Maybe it's all about feeling powerless....
back to those childhood feelings....
Posted by Tabitha on January 17, 2003, at 13:53:29
In reply to SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 9:37:20
You did nothing wrong. I'm behind on the threads, but I did see that discussion on Admin. I imagine it would hurt to see yourself discussed like a specimen, and to see those suggestions about your motivations. Keep speaking your truth, if not here, then somewhere.
Posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:48:19
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 8:45:51
> I can relate to the rage...and I've_wanted_ and had urges to self injure before...I think the only reason I haven't is I've sensed the power behind the act, and I knew if I allowed myself to do it, that it might feel really good and I
would want to keep doing it.You are so wise, Roo. I wish I could turn back the clock on that one. It's easier to never start something like that than it is to stop it.
Posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:50:58
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on January 17, 2003, at 13:53:29
But hey, I'm getting better Tabitha. There was a time when I would have had a complete meltdown. My ego is strengthening at least a wee bit.
Good to see you back. I've missed you.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:51:50
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:48:19
Posted by judy1 on January 18, 2003, at 11:37:18
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me, posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:48:19
I just wanted to say how sorry I was (I just read the thread you were referring too), I would have been incredibly hurt if someone posted about me. I think you reacted in a strong and healthy way, I am really impressed. Do you have any idea why you're having such a hard time now (and I apologize if you've already said why, I'm not very good about reading all the posts). Is it the time of year- holidays? winter? You mentioned the cortisol testing on PB, does your dr. suspect hormonal or thyroid problems? Just wondering, you don't have to answer- I just hate to see you having such a difficult time. take care- judy
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2003, at 20:36:46
In reply to Re: SI and suicidal ideation and me » Dinah, posted by judy1 on January 18, 2003, at 11:37:18
Hi Judy,
Thank you. I do see an improvement in that area myself, and my therapist was proud of me.
I asked about the cortisol because I guess I always hope there's some answer out there, and I was curious to see if that was a possibility. But it doesn't look all that promising, unfortunately.
I am pretty sure I'm stressed from a combination of work, my brother being called up for duty, the obligation to care for my aging parents since my brother currently lives with them, and those darn cyclothymia swings. They all kind of converged this time.
But I've been goofing off today, and I'm feeling much better. Sometimes a lousy memory can be a blessing. :)
How about you? Have you gone back to therapy, or is your therapist still out of town?
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