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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 37 to 61 of 158. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:26:15
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:25:33
Though of course an apology doesn't mean anything at all to me at this point. Because... You don't understand.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:28:42
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » alexandra_k, posted by Kath on June 4, 2009, at 17:47:50
> I think it's the 3rd post on the thread that's being referred to.
I see that one. I don't see it being inappropriately directed or personal or hostile or impassioned.
> I think it's because it says, "I'm glad that you..." etc.
And... I am glad. What is bad about being glad? I understand people feeling upset if they thought it was sarcastic - but it wasn't. Being glad makes it inappropriately directed or personal or hostile or impassioned?
Whatever.
I really am sick of this place.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:33:12
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:25:33
> Well that depends really.
>
> The impression I was getting was that Bob was giving you an opportunity to clarify your intent or apologize for jumping to conclusions about me.
>
> The point of the examples were that the other people who were involved in this controversy did attempt to clarify their intent and apologize to others who may have been hurt by what they said.
>
> You declined to do so.
>
> Whether you are blocked for declining to apologize or rephrase is, well, up to Bob, really.But here I am speculating about what goes on in his mind again. And really, it is a whole heap better for me if I don't try and do that.
How would you feel, Scott, if someone told you that one of your posts 'appears attacking'? How would you feel is someone said that when you really didn't mean for your post to appear that way? How would you feel if the person who said that about your post didn't seem to understand or care that you might well feel upset about their jumping to conclusions about your intent? How would you feel if in response to your saying that you really didn't intend it in that way they said that they regretted saying that because they could have just reported the post (I guess the idea there is the hope that they will be blocked for what they said)
How would you feel?
What do you think I am such that my feelings simply don't matter to you at all?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:44:42
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:33:12
but then 'reality testing' really is a problem. and sometimes i get bob's calls and othertimes i don't. thought they were pretty good for a while there. now... whatever. i guess the thing is that the best way to get better at the realilty testing thing is basically to spend time with people who seem to have it fairly sorted. was crazymaking for me living with a roommate with issues. perhaps because our issues clashed or maybe resulted in both of us having that aspect amplified. i just know that i do a whole heap better in life and a whole heap better in my own mental health if i try and hang around basically healthy people.
trauma bonding...
identifying with being mentally ill...
time to move on, huh. i think (for me) it really is progress.
i don't need to or want to deal with this anymore.
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 20:43:54
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:44:42
I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/11/09
* Me too. It seems to work. (nm) » greywolf SLS 5/12/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules » alexandra_k SLS 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
* Some love this place despite the rules » SLS gobbledygook 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/14/09
* Thanks, Scott (nm) greywolf 5/14/09
Ok. I didn't want to have to go with this. It is truly a no-brainer, but I just wish someone else had taken note of it:Just what in the hell do you think Greywolf was thanking me for?
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on June 4, 2009, at 21:14:52
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by alexandra_k on May 14, 2009, at 14:42:51
Alex still has it right. Often, things go reasonably well here. But it is still shocking and hurtful when blocks are issued without warning, are given for statements where the poster in question is unaware of hurting anyone and did not mean to do so, and when they are rapidly escalated in a punitive and destructive manner. It is no accident that many of us have therapists who are appalled by the inconsistent and vindictive way that Bob administers blocks. In a forum devoted to mental health, Bob's actions stand out to them as falling far short of what they would hope to see in a professional mental health administrator.
If I understood her properly, Alex wanted to be understood for sharing some of these feelings I mentioned. It would be useless for her to have a forced apology from SLS, requested by Bob, but unaccompanied by any understanding of why she had said what she did. This is a major failing on this site. Because of Bob's personal cast of mind, rules and directives invariably predominate over understanding, compassion and human relatedness.
Posted by greywolf on June 5, 2009, at 0:04:28
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 20:43:54
> I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/11/09
>
> * Me too. It seems to work. (nm) » greywolf SLS 5/12/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules » alexandra_k SLS 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> * Some love this place despite the rules » SLS gobbledygook 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/14/09
> * Thanks, Scott (nm) greywolf 5/14/09
>
>
> Ok. I didn't want to have to go with this. It is truly a no-brainer, but I just wish someone else had taken note of it:
>
> Just what in the hell do you think Greywolf was thanking me for?
>
>
> - Scott
>
>I thanked Scott because I did, indeed, feel attacked, albeit in a sarcastic way, by Alexandra K's post. Was I upset? No, because it was clear that Alexandra has issues with rules enforcement that I either don't have or haven't had to deal with personally.
I just wish that my expression of positive feelings for PB hadn't been turned into a controversy when all I intended was a personal statement of appreciation. I was somewhat taken aback by Alexandra's response to me, but it is a public forum and she's entitled to express her opinion. I'll leave judgment of the manner of expression to others.
Greywolf
Posted by Sigismund on June 5, 2009, at 2:04:03
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by alexandra_k on May 14, 2009, at 14:42:51
Alex's first post was the passionate one, IMO.
There's nothing wrong with being passionate but there is a risk that the person spoken to may feel hurt.I liked what Twinleaf said
>It would be useless for her to have a forced apology from SLS, requested by Bob, but unaccompanied by any understanding of why she had said what she did.
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2009, at 4:38:23
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by twinleaf on June 4, 2009, at 21:14:52
> Alex still has it right. Often, things go reasonably well here. But it is still shocking and hurtful when blocks are issued without warning, are given for statements where the poster in question is unaware of hurting anyone and did not mean to do so, and when they are rapidly escalated in a punitive and destructive manner. It is no accident that many of us have therapists who are appalled by the inconsistent and vindictive way that Bob administers blocks. In a forum devoted to mental health, Bob's actions stand out to them as falling far short of what they would hope to see in a professional mental health administrator.
>
> If I understood her properly, Alex wanted to be understood for sharing some of these feelings I mentioned. It would be useless for her to have a forced apology from SLS, requested by Bob, but unaccompanied by any understanding of why she had said what she did. This is a major failing on this site. Because of Bob's personal cast of mind, rules and directives invariably predominate over understanding, compassion and human relatedness.twinleaf,
You wrote,[...a..destructive manner...vindictive way...useless..forced apology...a major failing...(Mr. Hsiung's) personal cast of mind...].
I would like to hear more that could elaborate and bring out the following. If you could post here the answers to the following, thhen I could have a better understanding of what you are wanting to mean.
A.In,[...a destructive manner...]
1. What gets destroyed?
2. What are the manners that are destructive?
B. In,[...vindictive way...]
1. How do you determine, as to what evidence can be seen, as to if a way is vindictive?
C. In.[...useless..forced apology...]
1. Why , in your opinion, is an apology useless if it is forced?
2. Do you know of the history here of the apology as to when it was first accepted as a way to allow the poster to not be sanctioned by posting that they apologize for what they wrote?
3. In your opinion, is an apology conditional upon the one being apologized to, to accept or not the apology?
4. Are you aware of that a generally accepted way for an apology to be accepted is that two conditions are to be met? One is that it is sincere and the other that it is sufficient?
5. If those conditions are to be met for an apology to be a way to have a member avoid sanction here, how could those conditions be evaluated as real or not?
6. If those conditions could not be validated here, could you email me with what you think the administration's thinking is concerning the aspect of them allowing a member to post an apology, which could then set up a situation where the member could avoid a sanction that could otherwise be issued if they did not post an apology? I ask for you to email me for I am unsure if one could be allowed to post what one thinks another means here.
D. In, [...a major failing...]
1. What is the major failing? If the goals of the forum are for support and education, could those be what the failings are about?
2. If those are the failings, then could you list some of the consequences to the members here that could happen to them?
3. If those are the failings, what remedial action do you think is required to remdy the situation so that the failure could be corrected?
4. In you opinion, could there be consequences to some members here that could not be remediated? If so, what could those consequences be?
E. In, [...Mr. Hsiung's..mind...]
1. Mr. Hsiung writes something like that he wants members to put forth some effort to trust him in what he does because in his thinking he does what will be good for the community as a whole. Are you aware of the historical parallels concerning what Mr. Hsiung wants members to try to do? If so, could you post here somethging from your perspective concerning his statement in his TOS here?
2. In your opinion, could the outstanding requests by me to the administration that are posted here still unresponded to as per the TOS here, also be part of the {failings}? If so, could you post here as to the reasons as in a mental heath community why?
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:00:28
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by twinleaf on June 4, 2009, at 21:14:52
Hi Lou.
I in no way want to attempt to abbreviate your inquiry here. I would only request that, if at all possible, we not continue to speak specifically about what Scott and Alexandra thought, felt, or said. If you could manage this, I would be most grateful. I think it is appropriate that you ask your questions at this point along this thread, however, I do not advocate nor dissent any position you might take at this time. Of course, I cannot speak in place for the entire population here, so I will decide what role I will play in any further discussions here.
Be well.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:01:38
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » twinleaf, posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:00:28
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:11:07
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by greywolf on June 5, 2009, at 0:04:28
Greywolf, you make an excellent point. You expressed feelings of trust and support for this forum, and the way in which it is run, and you did not feel that your view was truly recognized or validated. It did look to me as though it was, but perhaps only minimally. If it did not seem that way to you, that is what counts
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:22:24
In reply to Re: Case closed? » greywolf, posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:11:07
Let's let this thing go.
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:24:45
In reply to Lou's request for elaboration- » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2009, at 4:38:23
Lou, you have asked me so many complex questions, many of which have intricate connections to previous questions and exchanges which have taken place here, that I fear i will go into brain failure trying to respond to them.
I definitely support you in your attempt to obtain responses from the administration. You may not get the answers which you are hoping for, but you do deserve a response. If your questions are so complex as to be difficult to answer, you could try to simplify them- that would demonstrate your commitment to having meaningful communication.
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:39:01
In reply to Case closed., posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:22:24
All threads come to an end, But let's each of us end our individual participation in this one when it seems right to us.
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:52:12
In reply to Re: Case closed. » SLS, posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:39:01
> All threads come to an end, But let's each of us end our individual participation in this one when it seems right to us.
Ok. It was just an appeal. If you would like to keep it going, be my guest. Let's see how much upset we can cause each other.
Is there anything else that you would like to say this morning?
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 6:40:27
In reply to Re: Case closed. » twinleaf, posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:52:12
No, I don't particularly want to keep it going. I would prefer that it have a natural end, when everyone has said what they wanted.
Contrary to what you are implying, I do not want to cause any hurt to anyone here. I never have, and never would say anything to you as provocative as, :"if you would like to keep it going, be my guest" or "is there anything else you would like to say this morning?"
The issue I have been discussing here concerns the importance of posters with differing views feeling validated and heard, and my posts had Alex and Greywolf principally in mind. I feel this is a topic which is not sufficiently respected and discussed on this forum, so I am personally glad that it has come up now. Where is the "upset" in supporting a principle which is such an important part of good mental health?
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2009, at 6:41:09
In reply to Re: Lou's request for elaboration- » Lou Pilder, posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:24:45
> Lou, you have asked me so many complex questions, many of which have intricate connections to previous questions and exchanges which have taken place here, that I fear i will go into brain failure trying to respond to them.
>
> I definitely support you in your attempt to obtain responses from the administration. You may not get the answers which you are hoping for, but you do deserve a response. If your questions are so complex as to be difficult to answer, you could try to simplify them- that would demonstrate your commitment to having meaningful communication.twinleaf,
You wrote,[...if your questions are so complex...you could..simplify them...]
I would be glad to offer any clarification that is asked for to those that think that clarification is needed to give a reply. However, in my requests for the adminstration to address notifications,or to reply to an email, I do not see anything in my requests that could be so complex as to prevent the administration from responding per the TOS here and if so, if they have such a concern, they could ask me for clariication. If you would like to see the requests from me to the administration that are still outstanding, you could email me if you like and then make a determination at that time after seeing them as to if any clarification is needed to respond according to the TOS here.
Lou
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 6:56:14
In reply to Lou's reply-ifcom » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2009, at 6:41:09
No, Lou, I believe you. I'm sure the questions are on point. You are the best judge of that, in any event. I hope you do get answers.
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 7:08:49
In reply to Re: Case closed. » SLS, posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 6:40:27
> No, I don't particularly want to keep it going. I would prefer that it have a natural end, when everyone has said what they wanted.
This whole thing could have been avoided with one simple post in the beginning.
- Scott
Posted by gobbledygook on June 5, 2009, at 13:03:00
In reply to Re: Case closed. » SLS, posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 6:40:27
Pfinstegg/Twinleaf,
Having read most of your posts over the years, I have nothing but respect and admiration for you. You have been
a great contributor at babble...always generous with your knowledge and insights while sensitive and empathetic.
You have directly and indirectly helped me with your genuine and warm replies when I was suffering alone in darkness.
And I am and was grateful that someone like you is at babble.I know your only intention is to discuss issues and concerns to make babble a better place as you have experienced its
flaws first hand. It takes courage, and I admire you for bringing to light what and how you felt while going through a great
amount of pain - I know you would never want to cause upset or hurt to anyone the way you've been hurt here.Personally, it scared me to see someone like yourself getting "sentenced and banned" while only trying to help someone
in severe distress. You were someone who expressed care for Bob, babble and its people, and supported this site in many
ways. I remember thinking if someone as solid and stellar as you could get caught in such a rapid succession of what I felt
were punishments - in front of an audience, then I had better not speak-up, even with best of intentions, or I might suffer the
same fate. And I remember pulling back and withdrawing from babble the way I always have ever since I was a little girl - as
the message I got in my life were to always fear and distrust...that people can really hurt you even when you're trying to be
good...that the world can come crumbling down at a moment's notice. And I felt badly that I wasn't a strong enough person
to give you any kind of support at the time.This is a public forum. And you are entitled to express your views, and feel validated and heard like everyone else here. I
enjoy and learn from threads that have more than one post, and have differing views. Maybe things will change for the better, or
maybe nothing will change, but I want to give you the respect by saying I hope you express what you see and feel, and end your
participation in this thread when it seems right to you.Ava
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 17:12:17
In reply to Re: Case closed. » twinleaf, posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:52:12
> > All threads come to an end, But let's each of us end our individual participation in this one when it seems right to us.
>
> Ok. It was just an appeal. If you would like to keep it going, be my guest. Let's see how much upset we can cause each other.I do apologize that this last sentence was not clear as to who "each other" was. I had meant "each other" to mean anyone or everyone on Psych-Babble, not just Scott and Twinleaf. It was not meant to be directed at Twinleaf specifically. It really does sound that way, though.
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 17:55:09
In reply to Re: Case closed., posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 17:12:17
Well, it WAS written to me, and it did feel rather provocative. Still, I appreciate your apology, which I certainly accept fully. Even if the thread does continue, this aspect of it can definitely be closed now.
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 19:04:59
In reply to When it seems right to you... » twinleaf, posted by gobbledygook on June 5, 2009, at 13:03:00
Thank you so, so much Ava. I have actually never received a post as caring, genuine and validating as yours in the six years that I've been here. It means a tremendous amount to me, because the blocks I received were so unexpected, and just seemed to come one after the other, getting longer and longer, And I did feel embarrassed, and really, sort of ashamed in front of everyone, just as you said. My analyst had begun reading in this forum, and found it hard to believe that Bob could act in such a harsh and punitive manner towards me while trying to present himself as being fair and even-handed towards everyone. My analyst was actually one of the therapists who saw a lot of potential benefit here for people who had become isolated by anxiety or depression, so he was especially distressed to see what happened to me. And he also had to stick with me in the long weeks it took for me to recover from the horrible sense of being rejected and punished that I felt. Because I know, now, how emotionally destructive blocks can be, I really want to let that fact be known here. This may or may not cause any changes or improvements, but I have noticed that blocks are used much more carefully now. I think we need a few more changes to make this site really safe and supportive for us all: ideally, no blocks at all, or failing that, short blocks of one week only. These should always be preceded by opportunities for posters to settle their own differences, which I have repeatedly seen them do just beautifully. And taking responsibility for doing it yourself is much more in keeping with the growth we are all working to achieve. There should not be any blocks for bizarre things like not being able to express political or social opinions for fear of making unknown people who hold different opinions feel put down. That just looks plain crazy to outside observers! But just to sum up the most important point, Bob should never misuse the power he has to hurt anyone in this population of people suffering from, and in recovery from, emotional illnesses. For him to do so is completely and totally unacceptable by any standard one can apply. Every time he does it, or threatens to do it, he is going to hear from me.
There's really no way to thank you for such a caring and understanding post, Ava, but THANK YOU!
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 20:33:38
In reply to Lou's request for elaboration- » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2009, at 4:38:23
Hi Lou.
Please disregard my previous post to you requesting that you not involve yourself in the entire thread. That was insensitive of me to do that to you. It was an attempt on my part at controlling a situation. I was trying to put out a fire. I guess I should have just let it burn. It continued to anyway.
Sorry.
- Scott
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