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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 158. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2009, at 1:12:45
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by alexandra_k on May 14, 2009, at 14:42:51
> I'm glad that you haven't had the unfortunate experience of seeing ... good friends get blocked
>
> I'm glad you also haven't been subject to blocks when you didn't see them coming.
>
> alexandra_kBlocks are certainly unfortunate. I think a lot of them could be avoided. For example, by clarifying intentions or apologizing. They way posters have in this thread:
> I don't think it was fair to Greywolf that you personalized your statements towards him in a way that resembled an attack.
>
> SLS> I don't see how what I said was 'resembling an attack'. That certainly wasn't my intention.
>
> alexandra_k> I don't think it's fair to Alexandra K to say that she personalized her statements towards Greywolf that resembled an attack.
>
> gobbledygook> I just want to apologize in case any of you felt your feelings were negated by my post in trying to help validate Alexandra K's feelings.
>
> gobbledygookScott, did you intend to for alex to feel accused? Could you rethink what you said? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 6:12:07
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » SLS, posted by Dr. Bob on June 4, 2009, at 1:12:45
> > I'm glad that you haven't had the unfortunate experience of seeing ... good friends get blocked
> >
> > I'm glad you also haven't been subject to blocks when you didn't see them coming.
> >
> > alexandra_k
>
> Blocks are certainly unfortunate. I think a lot of them could be avoided. For example, by clarifying intentions or apologizing. They way posters have in this thread:
>
> > I don't think it was fair to Greywolf that you personalized your statements towards him in a way that resembled an attack.
> >
> > SLS
>
> > I don't see how what I said was 'resembling an attack'. That certainly wasn't my intention.
> >
> > alexandra_k
>
> > I don't think it's fair to Alexandra K to say that she personalized her statements towards Greywolf that resembled an attack.
> >
> > gobbledygook
>
> > I just want to apologize in case any of you felt your feelings were negated by my post in trying to help validate Alexandra K's feelings.
> >
> > gobbledygook
>
> Scott, did you intend to for alex to feel accused? Could you rethink what you said? Thanks,
>
> Bob
For what it is worth, I had reread the thread a number of times since submitting my post.Upon further reflection, I would not change a single thing except for the way I chose to act on my thoughts and feelings. In the future, I will try to use the notification feature of this website.
- Scott
Posted by Sigismund on June 4, 2009, at 16:44:05
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » Dr. Bob, posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 6:12:07
My impression is that this is a misunderstanding.
Greywolf gave an opinion.
Alex spoke passionately in a way that would have kinda hurt me if I'd been on the receiving end of it but which *was* directed elsewhere, and Scott tried to address it by speaking about it to Alex, and so on down the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 17:06:57
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by Sigismund on June 4, 2009, at 16:44:05
> Alex spoke passionately in a way that would have kinda hurt me if I'd been on the receiving end of it but which *was* directed elsewhere
Did she? Am I missing something here? Is there a post that has my name on it that only shows up for others or something?
What I see is an initial post where the poster is saying that posters here seem to be sincere and kind and that the rules don't really affect them.
I then see a post I wrote basically saying that it would be wonderful if the rules didn't really affect one. I then listed certain experiences that I've had here. I'm not sure how the initial poster would feel if they had seen either themself or their friends here blocked for such things. Would they feel the same way or wouldn't they? Maybe they would still feel the rules don't really affect them or maybe they wouldn't. I don't understand why someone would feel hurt in response to my raising this (unless someone judged my post to be insincere, sarcastic or whatever - and I clarified that that was not my intention).
But perhaps people know me better than I know myself. It wasn't a 'report' of various things that have happened here it was 'impassioned'. It wasn't responding to the initial post the way other people do it is 'directed' in a way that is considered unacceptable. There is a name for that: Crazy-making. And as always what will happen depends on what Bob wants to happen. Sometimes he accepts apologies, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he accepts rephrases, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes people get blocked for jumping to conclusions about the intentions of others, sometimes people get blocked for having what has been determined to be ill intent. Sometimes people agree with his decision (in which case they feel safe) and othertimes they don't (in which case they don't feel safe).
I... Can't be bothered anymore. And there it is.
Posted by Kath on June 4, 2009, at 17:47:50
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 17:06:57
> > Alex spoke passionately in a way that would have kinda hurt me if I'd been on the receiving end of it but which *was* directed elsewhere
>
> Did she? Am I missing something here? Is there a post that has my name on it that only shows up for others or something?~ ~ ~ Dear Alex, I think it's the 3rd post on the thread that's being referred to. I think it's because it says, "I'm glad that you..." etc.
(((you))) I send loving hugs,
Kath
Posted by Kath on June 4, 2009, at 17:50:24
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 17:06:57
PS - when I read the May 14th post, I only 'heard' what you said being said with sincerity. Not in an attacking way.
Kath
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 17:57:35
In reply to PS » alexandra_k, posted by Kath on June 4, 2009, at 17:50:24
Posted by Kath on June 4, 2009, at 18:19:47
In reply to Case closed? (nm), posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 17:57:35
Dear 'one-of-my-favourite-people' (aka SLS, aka Scott)
My case is closed - if I had one
:-)
Ya know, Dr. Bob suggested that we sort of try to help each other reframe things, or word things differently, etc. I think it is extremely hard to avoid hurting people's feelings. I also think it's really hard to 'talk about' things in typing. There's no tone-of-voice in typing! There are no body-language clues. Etcetera.
It's very tricky.
I send you loving hugs Scott. sincerely, Kath
PS, DebR just turned up on PB2000 ! ! ! Do you think it's our Deb from Australia?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:25:33
In reply to Case closed? (nm), posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 17:57:35
Well that depends really.
The impression I was getting was that Bob was giving you an opportunity to clarify your intent or apologize for jumping to conclusions about me.
The point of the examples were that the other people who were involved in this controversy did attempt to clarify their intent and apologize to others who may have been hurt by what they said.
You declined to do so.
Whether you are blocked for declining to apologize or rephrase is, well, up to Bob, really.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:26:15
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:25:33
Though of course an apology doesn't mean anything at all to me at this point. Because... You don't understand.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:28:42
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » alexandra_k, posted by Kath on June 4, 2009, at 17:47:50
> I think it's the 3rd post on the thread that's being referred to.
I see that one. I don't see it being inappropriately directed or personal or hostile or impassioned.
> I think it's because it says, "I'm glad that you..." etc.
And... I am glad. What is bad about being glad? I understand people feeling upset if they thought it was sarcastic - but it wasn't. Being glad makes it inappropriately directed or personal or hostile or impassioned?
Whatever.
I really am sick of this place.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:33:12
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:25:33
> Well that depends really.
>
> The impression I was getting was that Bob was giving you an opportunity to clarify your intent or apologize for jumping to conclusions about me.
>
> The point of the examples were that the other people who were involved in this controversy did attempt to clarify their intent and apologize to others who may have been hurt by what they said.
>
> You declined to do so.
>
> Whether you are blocked for declining to apologize or rephrase is, well, up to Bob, really.But here I am speculating about what goes on in his mind again. And really, it is a whole heap better for me if I don't try and do that.
How would you feel, Scott, if someone told you that one of your posts 'appears attacking'? How would you feel is someone said that when you really didn't mean for your post to appear that way? How would you feel if the person who said that about your post didn't seem to understand or care that you might well feel upset about their jumping to conclusions about your intent? How would you feel if in response to your saying that you really didn't intend it in that way they said that they regretted saying that because they could have just reported the post (I guess the idea there is the hope that they will be blocked for what they said)
How would you feel?
What do you think I am such that my feelings simply don't matter to you at all?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:44:42
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:33:12
but then 'reality testing' really is a problem. and sometimes i get bob's calls and othertimes i don't. thought they were pretty good for a while there. now... whatever. i guess the thing is that the best way to get better at the realilty testing thing is basically to spend time with people who seem to have it fairly sorted. was crazymaking for me living with a roommate with issues. perhaps because our issues clashed or maybe resulted in both of us having that aspect amplified. i just know that i do a whole heap better in life and a whole heap better in my own mental health if i try and hang around basically healthy people.
trauma bonding...
identifying with being mentally ill...
time to move on, huh. i think (for me) it really is progress.
i don't need to or want to deal with this anymore.
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 20:43:54
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by alexandra_k on June 4, 2009, at 19:44:42
I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/11/09
* Me too. It seems to work. (nm) » greywolf SLS 5/12/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules » alexandra_k SLS 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
* Some love this place despite the rules » SLS gobbledygook 5/14/09
* Re: I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/14/09
* Thanks, Scott (nm) greywolf 5/14/09
Ok. I didn't want to have to go with this. It is truly a no-brainer, but I just wish someone else had taken note of it:Just what in the hell do you think Greywolf was thanking me for?
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on June 4, 2009, at 21:14:52
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by alexandra_k on May 14, 2009, at 14:42:51
Alex still has it right. Often, things go reasonably well here. But it is still shocking and hurtful when blocks are issued without warning, are given for statements where the poster in question is unaware of hurting anyone and did not mean to do so, and when they are rapidly escalated in a punitive and destructive manner. It is no accident that many of us have therapists who are appalled by the inconsistent and vindictive way that Bob administers blocks. In a forum devoted to mental health, Bob's actions stand out to them as falling far short of what they would hope to see in a professional mental health administrator.
If I understood her properly, Alex wanted to be understood for sharing some of these feelings I mentioned. It would be useless for her to have a forced apology from SLS, requested by Bob, but unaccompanied by any understanding of why she had said what she did. This is a major failing on this site. Because of Bob's personal cast of mind, rules and directives invariably predominate over understanding, compassion and human relatedness.
Posted by greywolf on June 5, 2009, at 0:04:28
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by SLS on June 4, 2009, at 20:43:54
> I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/11/09
>
> * Me too. It seems to work. (nm) » greywolf SLS 5/12/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules » alexandra_k SLS 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules alexandra_k 5/14/09
> * Some love this place despite the rules » SLS gobbledygook 5/14/09
> * Re: I love this place despite the rules greywolf 5/14/09
> * Thanks, Scott (nm) greywolf 5/14/09
>
>
> Ok. I didn't want to have to go with this. It is truly a no-brainer, but I just wish someone else had taken note of it:
>
> Just what in the hell do you think Greywolf was thanking me for?
>
>
> - Scott
>
>I thanked Scott because I did, indeed, feel attacked, albeit in a sarcastic way, by Alexandra K's post. Was I upset? No, because it was clear that Alexandra has issues with rules enforcement that I either don't have or haven't had to deal with personally.
I just wish that my expression of positive feelings for PB hadn't been turned into a controversy when all I intended was a personal statement of appreciation. I was somewhat taken aback by Alexandra's response to me, but it is a public forum and she's entitled to express her opinion. I'll leave judgment of the manner of expression to others.
Greywolf
Posted by Sigismund on June 5, 2009, at 2:04:03
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by alexandra_k on May 14, 2009, at 14:42:51
Alex's first post was the passionate one, IMO.
There's nothing wrong with being passionate but there is a risk that the person spoken to may feel hurt.I liked what Twinleaf said
>It would be useless for her to have a forced apology from SLS, requested by Bob, but unaccompanied by any understanding of why she had said what she did.
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2009, at 4:38:23
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by twinleaf on June 4, 2009, at 21:14:52
> Alex still has it right. Often, things go reasonably well here. But it is still shocking and hurtful when blocks are issued without warning, are given for statements where the poster in question is unaware of hurting anyone and did not mean to do so, and when they are rapidly escalated in a punitive and destructive manner. It is no accident that many of us have therapists who are appalled by the inconsistent and vindictive way that Bob administers blocks. In a forum devoted to mental health, Bob's actions stand out to them as falling far short of what they would hope to see in a professional mental health administrator.
>
> If I understood her properly, Alex wanted to be understood for sharing some of these feelings I mentioned. It would be useless for her to have a forced apology from SLS, requested by Bob, but unaccompanied by any understanding of why she had said what she did. This is a major failing on this site. Because of Bob's personal cast of mind, rules and directives invariably predominate over understanding, compassion and human relatedness.twinleaf,
You wrote,[...a..destructive manner...vindictive way...useless..forced apology...a major failing...(Mr. Hsiung's) personal cast of mind...].
I would like to hear more that could elaborate and bring out the following. If you could post here the answers to the following, thhen I could have a better understanding of what you are wanting to mean.
A.In,[...a destructive manner...]
1. What gets destroyed?
2. What are the manners that are destructive?
B. In,[...vindictive way...]
1. How do you determine, as to what evidence can be seen, as to if a way is vindictive?
C. In.[...useless..forced apology...]
1. Why , in your opinion, is an apology useless if it is forced?
2. Do you know of the history here of the apology as to when it was first accepted as a way to allow the poster to not be sanctioned by posting that they apologize for what they wrote?
3. In your opinion, is an apology conditional upon the one being apologized to, to accept or not the apology?
4. Are you aware of that a generally accepted way for an apology to be accepted is that two conditions are to be met? One is that it is sincere and the other that it is sufficient?
5. If those conditions are to be met for an apology to be a way to have a member avoid sanction here, how could those conditions be evaluated as real or not?
6. If those conditions could not be validated here, could you email me with what you think the administration's thinking is concerning the aspect of them allowing a member to post an apology, which could then set up a situation where the member could avoid a sanction that could otherwise be issued if they did not post an apology? I ask for you to email me for I am unsure if one could be allowed to post what one thinks another means here.
D. In, [...a major failing...]
1. What is the major failing? If the goals of the forum are for support and education, could those be what the failings are about?
2. If those are the failings, then could you list some of the consequences to the members here that could happen to them?
3. If those are the failings, what remedial action do you think is required to remdy the situation so that the failure could be corrected?
4. In you opinion, could there be consequences to some members here that could not be remediated? If so, what could those consequences be?
E. In, [...Mr. Hsiung's..mind...]
1. Mr. Hsiung writes something like that he wants members to put forth some effort to trust him in what he does because in his thinking he does what will be good for the community as a whole. Are you aware of the historical parallels concerning what Mr. Hsiung wants members to try to do? If so, could you post here somethging from your perspective concerning his statement in his TOS here?
2. In your opinion, could the outstanding requests by me to the administration that are posted here still unresponded to as per the TOS here, also be part of the {failings}? If so, could you post here as to the reasons as in a mental heath community why?
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:00:28
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules, posted by twinleaf on June 4, 2009, at 21:14:52
Hi Lou.
I in no way want to attempt to abbreviate your inquiry here. I would only request that, if at all possible, we not continue to speak specifically about what Scott and Alexandra thought, felt, or said. If you could manage this, I would be most grateful. I think it is appropriate that you ask your questions at this point along this thread, however, I do not advocate nor dissent any position you might take at this time. Of course, I cannot speak in place for the entire population here, so I will decide what role I will play in any further discussions here.
Be well.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:01:38
In reply to Re: I love this place despite the rules » twinleaf, posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:00:28
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:11:07
In reply to Re: Case closed?, posted by greywolf on June 5, 2009, at 0:04:28
Greywolf, you make an excellent point. You expressed feelings of trust and support for this forum, and the way in which it is run, and you did not feel that your view was truly recognized or validated. It did look to me as though it was, but perhaps only minimally. If it did not seem that way to you, that is what counts
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:22:24
In reply to Re: Case closed? » greywolf, posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:11:07
Let's let this thing go.
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:24:45
In reply to Lou's request for elaboration- » twinleaf, posted by Lou Pilder on June 5, 2009, at 4:38:23
Lou, you have asked me so many complex questions, many of which have intricate connections to previous questions and exchanges which have taken place here, that I fear i will go into brain failure trying to respond to them.
I definitely support you in your attempt to obtain responses from the administration. You may not get the answers which you are hoping for, but you do deserve a response. If your questions are so complex as to be difficult to answer, you could try to simplify them- that would demonstrate your commitment to having meaningful communication.
Posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:39:01
In reply to Case closed., posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:22:24
All threads come to an end, But let's each of us end our individual participation in this one when it seems right to us.
Posted by SLS on June 5, 2009, at 5:52:12
In reply to Re: Case closed. » SLS, posted by twinleaf on June 5, 2009, at 5:39:01
> All threads come to an end, But let's each of us end our individual participation in this one when it seems right to us.
Ok. It was just an appeal. If you would like to keep it going, be my guest. Let's see how much upset we can cause each other.
Is there anything else that you would like to say this morning?
- Scott
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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