![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 146 to 170 of 536. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2005, at 21:53:03
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities, posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2005, at 18:09:47
I really shouldn't discuss this further.
I think those that find the idea distasteful have been clear on why. Babble is hardly a high crime neighborhood, the place isn't full of undesirables, and it's rather rude to assume that there is appeal in keeping the rabble out. It is rude to have private conversations in a public setting. The whole idea is immensely rude on so many levels that my total distaste knows no bounds. It is the epitome of unwelcoming. It is the very opposite of welcoming. It is unwarm, uncharitable, and un-everything I admire.
And it's not what I would have expected from a mental health provider in general, and you in particular, Dr. Bob. I guess another lowering of expectations is in order. Are you really one of those people who find value added in a club by the fact that not everyone is able to participate? To find value added in an address if not just anyone can walk down the street? If not, (and if research is not the goal), why is it so necessary to you that restrictions be part of the solution? Why restrictions of all things?
Do you live in a gated community, Dr. Bob? Do you wish you did? What is so appealing to you about the idea of keeping people out? What do you suppose others might find unappealing about the idea of keeping people out? What assumptions are inbedded in the idea that restrictive boards are attractive? What assumptions are inbedded in the idea that they are repulsive?
Why not leave restrictions off the table and open your mind and heart to other solutions? What is so dear to you about restrictions?
Do you feel intruded upon often in your life?
If you do do it, please do make it private and not public. In fact, please even make the membership rosters private. If something is to be private, it should be completely private. Just allocate some server space and have the whole darn thing a private affair.
It would be immensely less rude.
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2005, at 22:01:16
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities, posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2005, at 18:09:47
I don't know why I bother.
I just as well be speaking portuguese. You don't even begin to understand what I'm saying. And I don't even begin to understand how you can feel the way you do.
This is a complete and total waste of my time and emotional energy. And your time.
I'll step away from the computer for a while until I can view the whole thing with the detachment I need.
Oh. Restrictive boards. How... interesting.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2005, at 22:54:03
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2005, at 21:53:03
But what about my idea? If everyone gets to participate in a VSG then how is it rude? I don't know what you mean about undesirables and rabble because everyone can join up to a VSG if they want.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 30, 2005, at 23:16:29
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2005, at 22:54:03
Alex many of us do not like the idea....Sometimes you have to just agree to disagree,,,,VSG's can get filled up...we can go on and on but some are leaving now and for breaks because they do not like this idea and NEVER will. IF we made it into the BEST small town community Bob came up with ...we would still find the whole issue repugnant based on the *principle* of what we have been posting. I think Dinah was very clear on what she said. I hate to see her go on a break due to so many debates :( Just as I would hate to see you take a leave for the same reason. Sometimes when I post on issues I am posting what I feel and not to get into a debate..
Maybe Bob will have a debate room.
> But what about my idea? If everyone gets to participate in a VSG then how is it rude? I don't know what you mean about undesirables and rabble because everyone can join up to a VSG if they want.
>
>
>
>
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Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 0:06:53
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities » alexandra_k, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 30, 2005, at 23:16:29
It isn't about my not accepting peoples thoughts on this.
I will be happy to agree to disagree.
I don't like to see people hurting.
That was what this was about.
By the way, this bit of your post struck me:
>IF we made it into the BEST small town community Bob came up with ...we would still find the whole issue repugnant based on the *principle* of what we have been posting.
I find the idea that there may be a 'best' board to be repugnant.
>some are leaving now and for breaks
Yeah. Breaks can be good but I don't understand why people are thinking of leaving over this.
>...because they do not like this idea and NEVER will.
Such determination, fallen.
Some people have made up their mind and have deafened their ears.
I am just trying to help.
But I'll probably just end up hurting.
I don't know what is to be done.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 0:29:16
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 0:06:53
It's rude to have private conversations in front of other people. It is. It doesn't matter if everyone has the opportunity to join a smaller group, in the end the dynamic will be the same. This is not about a picnic in a park, or a cozy room. At a picnic someone could walk by and join in the conversation, in a cozy room if someone walked in, started to speak and was told "sorry you cannot speak to us" it would be considered appalling bad manners. This is nothing more than non verbal bad manners.
I was always taught that when at a party it's insensitive to stay within in a small group,if you're going to stay with a clique you may as well invite your friends to your house. Even in *that* situation though someone could, if confident enough include themselves.
This idea sickens me. I can't think of a Babble issue that has made me this livid. I don't think the boards will thrive even if they are implemented, but I am dissappointed that Dr. Bob would encourage it, trying make it kinder than it is. He's said himself he likes to keep the communication lines between posters open. This seems to contradict that philosophy.
If you want a private cozy room set up a yahoo group.
Those of us who travel the psych circuit have been shut out from enough rooms, enough private conversations, and have been whispered about too much.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 0:53:45
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 0:06:53
I cut some of this as it was because I want to refrain from going in circles. Yes I have a belief as you do and we differ on them. You are pro that too is as you say.."such determination".....I do not like the fact the blacks were seperated from the whites...that was not be seen as *turning a deaf ear* when many people spoke out about it and could not be turned from their belief...Please I hope you did not mean to insult me with that *TURNING A DEAF EAR* I know you do not mean to but it FEELS like an attack because I will not share your view. I respect yours but do not agree...Dinah doesn't either as you can read in her posts. I do not think all the posts are addressed to YOU personally, many are to Dr Bob. As much as you may want to YOU cannot fix or help a difference of opinion.
Yes in our opinion as I see in Gabs there will be better areas and rooms. That will be the one you/or someone else wishes you/they could get in and are told "no you cannot join." I too am very concerned about Dinah but I respect her beliefs enough to allow her to post and not debate her pro or con as I do not do with you.The point of my post was to point out we all can agree to disagree and post our views without all this fixing of each others viewpoint.
What can be done is whatever Dr. Bob decides. Please do not stress on this either of you as you have no control on this all you can do is state YOUR view and hug a friend who doesnt agree and move on.
>
> >...because they do not like this idea and NEVER will.
>
> Such determination, fallen.
>
> Some people have made up their mind and have deafened their ears.
>
> I am just trying to help.
> But I'll probably just end up hurting.
> I don't know what is to be done.
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 4:06:46
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 0:29:16
The reason why Dr. Bob and those of us who find the idea abhorrent will never even understand each other.
I was on to something in an earlier post.
Dr. Bob sees this as an accomodation. A parcel of land, a restaurant, a hotel. A server space. It isn't rude in a restaurant to offer rooms for private parties, even if it's in view to the other patrons, or to a hotel to offer private meeting rooms, even if they can be seen by other guests. A parcel of land I'd still have to disagree about since I find gated suburban communities to also be offensive.
While we see this as a community, a group of people, comprised of the posters themselves. We see Babble as Gabbi and Dinah and gg and SLS and Lar and the unfortunate departed from the community but still missed like Cam and Zen.
As long as Dr. Bob sees Gabbi and Dinah and Fallen as users of Babble, and Gabbi and Dinah and Fallen see themselves as parts of the many who make up Babble (like a coral community) and Dr. Bob as someone who provides space for Babble, it will be impossible to understand.
Unfortunately I could never see Babble as an accomodation. If Babble were an accomodation I'd have left long ago when I didn't like the service or the menu change. I love Babble as a community, even though the individuals who make up the community change more than I would wish.
I really wish Dr. Bob could see Babble as a community, not a restaurant, not an accomodation. It seems sad that the creator and administrator of Babble misses out on so much.
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 4:21:49
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 30, 2005, at 22:54:03
Hmmm... Perhaps you don't, in your part of the world, have our historical and cultural perspective on separate but equal.
The fact that everyone can join *a* small group matters no more than that everyone could go to *a* school, or drink at *a* drinking fountain, or sit in *a* seat in a bus. What difference does it make, as long as education, fluid, and transportation is offered, right? It *does* make a difference in a community. It really does.
The fact is that it would probably make less difference to me than anyone. I don't read where I'm not welcome to post. I don't read student board or newbie board. But to newcomers or those who read the restricted boards, it would make a difference. I might see a group of people who seem funny or warm, or who are carrying on a really fun conversations about mangoes. But when I went to try to join in, I'd be hit with an invisible wall that said "Sorry, these people won't let you in, but you're welcome to join this other group over here." How on earth is that equal? Or inviting? How does it make Babble seem like a nice place?
If Dr. Bob lets friends pick their own group, the offensiveness and cliquiness of the idea must be apparent. But even if Dr. Bob assigns groups, how can you ever think that there won't be people in some groups that wish they could be parts of another. Groups of people are not generic.
I'm not carrying on this battle for myself. I wouldn't want to be part of a group that feels the need to exclude others. I wouldn't read such a group because it would be rude to read a private conversation. If they wanted me to be a part of it, they'd not have closed themselves off.
Or to use the cozy room idea. Were I to come across a group of people having a lively conversation in a party, and be told that my participation wasn't welcome, I think I'd suggest that they close the d*mn door if they were having a private conversation so that they weren't having a public private conversation at a community function.
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 6:45:41
In reply to Re: half-cozy, half-gated communities, posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2005, at 18:09:47
If you made what *is* private, private.
Make the exclusionary communities a separate areas, which can only be entered by those who agree to be part of an exclusionary community. The ticket to entry would be the agreement to join. A separate admin board. No public announcements of who specifically chooses to join. No ability to read boards by those who aren't agreeable to joining a gated community.
What you do within those boundaries, whether you let those who belong to one group read all boards, is of absolutely no interest to me.
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 10:17:34
In reply to Eureka! I think I have it! » Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 4:06:46
> While we see this as a community, a group of people, comprised of the posters themselves. We see Babble as Gabbi and Dinah and gg and SLS and Lar and the unfortunate departed from the community but still missed like Cam and Zen.
I of course didn't mean that Cam and Zen and the others who left here are unfortunate. I mean that their leavign was unfortunate for us. I mean that those who leave and those who stay are are part of this living growing community, just like in a coral community. That the posters both present and not present make Babble what it is today.
Unfortunately my therapist dislikes my restaurant analogy. He reminded me that private parties at restaurants are not public the same way these gated communities would be. It is not typical for the other restaurant patrons to gather at the doors of the private party and listen to the conversations. It's a bit validating though that he finds even less room for understanding this than I do. :)
Posted by AuntieMel on January 31, 2005, at 11:59:25
In reply to Oops. A technical correction., posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 10:17:34
I see the point you are making.
A gated community is ostentatious in its restrictiveness. It is built, not just to keep people out, but to let people see just enough of what is behind the gate to show off.
Living in a building with a doorman technically accomplishes the same thing, but the intent is safety and privacy. Those on the outside don't see what they are missing and it doesn't purposely try to invoke envy.
Posted by AuntieMel on January 31, 2005, at 12:18:34
In reply to Oops. A technical correction., posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 10:17:34
I tried to send you an email to tell you to ignore my last email.....
gmail doesn't work too well from home. I need to download a more recent netscape. someday.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 12:30:13
In reply to Re: Dinah?, posted by AuntieMel on January 31, 2005, at 12:18:34
This is just another addition to my opinion. To hide these groups from the eyes of others. Seems to me to be just a sneakier way to insult all of us more and allow us to be Country Club members with a gold key in a good club. I would never join one I can email and make my own groups. I would NEVER insult and exclude another human being in this way. I also hope others don't because.....what we don't know will hurt us those of us who know this change is on the table will know..there are other HIDDEN grousps out there. I guess I find this sorry and see DR BOB losing a LOT of memebers to another board....in fact I see many over there now...with a few toes in the door of babble....while the rest of them leaves.
So for me there will be no exceptions I do not need ANYTHING that much that I would hurt another even in secret
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 13:23:06
In reply to Eureka! I think I have it! » Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on January 31, 2005, at 4:06:46
> The reason why Dr. Bob and those of us who find the idea abhorrent will never even understand each other.
>
> I was on to something in an earlier post.
>
> Dr. Bob sees this as an accomodation.I think you're exactly right Dinah.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 14:14:21
In reply to Re: Dinah?, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 12:30:13
> This is just another addition to my opinion. To hide these groups from the eyes of others. Seems to me to be just a sneakier way to insult all of us more and allow us to be Country Club members with a gold key in a good club.
It's true, people do have a way of finding out.
However, I really think that the rooms just won't work. There just aren't enough babblers altogether, nevermind enough who would be interested in a private room. The social board is hardly crowded with posters, the student board eventually had to become unrestricted and
I've seen posts on the 2000 board that have been made just to keep it from being closed. I have too much faith in Babblers to worry about having to leave over this, if it is implemented I'll just have to wait until I get over my annoyance with Dr.Bob and I've managed to do that more than a few times. : (
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:18
In reply to Re: Dinah?, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 14:14:21
As soon as you judge one board to be ‘better’ than another there are problems…
Instead of focusing on what you have you focus on what you are missing out on.
You feel envy because you aren’t in the ‘best’ board.
But it doesn’t have to be that way. All you have to do is lift the judgement.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 18:14:24
In reply to I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:18
> As soon as you judge one board to be ‘better’ than another there are problems…
> Instead of focusing on what you have you focus on what you are missing out on.
> You feel envy because you aren’t in the ‘best’ board.
>
>
> But it doesn’t have to be that way. All you have to do is lift the judgement.That's not it for me at all, not even remotely.
Few people I could connect with would want to even be involved with a private board so it's a non-issue. Why on earth would I envy people who were involved in something I find so repugnant? I think the reasons for not liking the idea were made pretty clear by Dinah, and they didn't involve envy, it's a matter of rudeness and elitism.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:21:05
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 18:14:24
Would it be rude and elite for me to join a board that you don't want to?
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 18:22:06
In reply to Re: Dinah?, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 14:14:21
I will leave when I even think there are select groups. I KNOW there are some off shoots...
Way back when I was a kid...maybe age 12 we had an interracial couple move into our very white and upper middle class suberb...I spoke with them often when I went to visit friends a couple blocks away..I would wave and say hi ask them dumb kid questions...they seemed SO greatful for that. At the time I didn't see that ..I was a kid...My dad even made comments on that dirty white woman who married a .....(dad was a very nice man normally) and ALL the rest of the neighborhood did NOT speak to them..This is true...*nobody EVEN looked at them* (kind of a what you don't see deal) they would just let them know by their silence they did not belong. You know closed doors.. Not even 6 months later....I was on my way to a friends house and no curtains were in the window..they moved....paid a lot of cash to move into our area to be ignored and treated like garbage. *I* will never be a part of something so distasteful. To this day in my old neighborhood you see few to zero black people...Where I live now a small town of 8000 with OLD MONEY you see no blacks at all minus shopping...It's like we have a gated community....they FEEL they are not welcome as I am sure some in here will too....I hate that what you see won't hurt you mentality...it is insulting. I will blow outta babble when that time comes that we have to hide and not be with all ...I will survive. I guess what some posters on here do not realize about me is. I could care less if I lost Babble myself I am fighting to keep what many of you seem to care about as well as the posters who will be shut out...Yeah it's a small town clique is all. If you hide it to me, that is just worse than not ..and very hypocritical. Lets have a country club in a hills so the blacks and jewish people don't know they are excluded...ugh..sickening
> > This is just another addition to my opinion. To hide these groups from the eyes of others. Seems to me to be just a sneakier way to insult all of us more and allow us to be Country Club members with a gold key in a good club.
>
> It's true, people do have a way of finding out.
> However, I really think that the rooms just won't work. There just aren't enough babblers altogether, nevermind enough who would be interested in a private room. The social board is hardly crowded with posters, the student board eventually had to become unrestricted and
> I've seen posts on the 2000 board that have been made just to keep it from being closed. I have too much faith in Babblers to worry about having to leave over this, if it is implemented I'll just have to wait until I get over my annoyance with Dr.Bob and I've managed to do that more than a few times. : (
>
>
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 18:31:18
In reply to I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:18
This is not to anyone in particular but sometimes people act like judgement is bad. I judge freedom and choice to be something I value. I think we judge judgment....
Main Entry: judg·ment
Variant(s): or judge.ment /'j&j-m&nt/
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b : an opinion so pronounced
2 a : a formal decision given by a court b (1) : an obligation (as a debt) created by the decree of a court (2) : a certificate evidencing such a decree
3 a : capitalized : the final judging of mankind by God b : a divine sentence or decision; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God
4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed
5 a : the capacity for judging : DISCERNMENT b : the exercise of this capacity
6 : a proposition stating something believed or asserted
synonym see SENSE
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 18:34:56
In reply to I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 17:37:18
Fifty years ago Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her bus seat to a white person in Montgomery, Ala. This event led to a bus boycott that was the first mass protest of racial discrimination..sometimes you have to stand up for what you belive in at ALL cost ..This is a case where I will be like Rosa Parks and stand up for all of those who want a bus seat......
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:55:27
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:21:05
I don't have a problem with judgement. But when the consequence of judement leads to hurt feelings and we do not need to judge that way...
I have heard a lot about racial segregation. I think that to compare small town boards with segregation on the basis of race is on a par with comparing babble with Nazi germany. That is to say that it undermines the suffering of those affected by those situations.
Dr Bob isn't saying lets limit membership to race or colour or income or anything like that. He is saying lets limit it to a certain number of posters.
I really should just stop this.
I am not trying to change peoples minds
I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.We can choose how to view this...
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:22:28
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:55:27
> I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
> And I am trying to find ways to show people that .
>
> We can choose how to view this...Please don't say "we" it's a complete contradiction. I don't need someone to show me how to choose. I *have* chosen how to view this, and my view is different from yours. The way that is phrased it sounds like the only way I could be choosing is if I agree to this, and that's rather ironic. My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
I frequently change my mind when an argument presented seems valid to me.
I haven't seen one yet, "The words have changed but the song remains the same"No, I don't think this is as extreme as choosing people by color. However sometimes people exaggerate to make a point.
I think having private conversation which can be viewed but not participated in by the rest of babble is insensitive, I think it promotes cliquisheness and it insinuates that there is an unruly mass to get away from.>we really don't need to be that hurt
That's right, anyone who wants a private conversation can have one.. IN PRIVATE
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 19:26:37
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 18:55:27
I totally disagree with you it is a form of elitism and segregation....many agree with me...some don't. I agree to disagree with you ..I do not think we will agree, it may be because of where I live, my age and life experience you are much younger than I..that is not bad or saying you do not know much but it is ELITISM..I never said NEVER said Dr Bob is basing it on color etc PLEASE DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS...I used **examples** of ELITISM...THE ONE THING WE AGREE ON IS THE LAST PART OF YOUR POST WHERE YOU SAY...."I really should just stop this.
> I am not trying to change peoples minds
> I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
> And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.
>
> We can choose how to view this... "
Those are wise words ...no you will not change peoples minds I would NOT want to change yours its your mind and beliefs...I respect that..Dinah Gab and I have been around here our minds and hearts feel differently...HOWEVER I will say YOU CANNOT SHOW US ANY OF US that we do not need to be hurt WE HATE THIS IDEA...I AM BTW NOT YELLING AT YOU JUST STRESSING points I do not think you understand or will :/ We arent wanting or asking you to agree or change your mind, YOU WILL NOT SEE US CHANGE OURS. Just as I know killing someone is wrong I know this elitism is wrong> I don't have a problem with judgement. But when the consequence of judement leads to hurt feelings and we do not need to judge that way...
>
> I have heard a lot about racial segregation. I think that to compare small town boards with segregation on the basis of race is on a par with comparing babble with Nazi germany. That is to say that it undermines the suffering of those affected by those situations.
>
> Dr Bob isn't saying lets limit membership to race or colour or income or anything like that. He is saying lets limit it to a certain number of posters.
>
> I really should just stop this.
> I am not trying to change peoples minds
> I am trying to understand the hurt feelings
> And I am trying to find ways to show people that we really don't need to be that hurt.
>
> We can choose how to view this...
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