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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 63. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
Hi.
It might sound weird at first, but some of us might be candidates for doxycycline therapy. My guess is that the brain is in a state of chronic inflammation. These people are full of cytokines, which produce inflammation. This inflammation is aggravated each time one suffers a systemic infection, as bacteria induce the production of cytokines by the immune system. Doxycycline does more than just kill little critters, which in itself could be an enormous help. It also acts as an anti-inflammatory in the brain by inhibiting cytokine production. The idea is to prevent infections and reduce cytokine-induced inflammation of the brain. People who are treated with doxycycline for depression must remain on it for quite awhile before results are seen - sometimes six months. If it works, you just stay on it indefinitely. Doxycycline is generally benign with regard to side effects. Of course, if you are allergic to the tetracyclines, you must put this idea aside. Signs of subsyndromal infection and/or inflammation include a chronic increase in the number of white blood cells (WBC), particularly monocytes. One could go for a cytokine immunoassay, but I do not believe it is worth the expense. The bottom line is that this stuff is for real, and one cannot be sure if targeting brain inflammation will help until it is tried. One interesting observation by my doctor is that some people will actually feel worse at first. He believes this is actually a good sign. My guess is that the accumulation of dead bacteria and their lysing provides an increase in the proteins that stimulate phagocyte production. The process of phagocytosis stimulates the secretion of cytokines by these active phagocytes. I really don't know for sure.If you are interested to research this yourself, you can find supportive literature for all of these pieces of this puzzle. However, you are going to have to put the pieces together for yourself. I haven't yet found any one article that would produce an explanation as I have here.
I tried doxycycline for 6 months. Nothing good - nothing bad. Systemic infections do not make my depression worses. However, if you do experience a worsening of depression associated with an infection, you might want to look further into doxycycline treatment. Doxycycline is preferred over monocycline. I think doxycycline inhibits more potently the secretion of cytokines.
I almost forgot to mention: Some of the drugs in the antidepressant pipeline are neurokinin (NK1 and NK2) receptor antagonists (blockers). Neurokinin is a subtype of cytokine. This is an elegant way to prevent brain inflammation. Even if cytokine levels are elevated, its target receptor never sees it and thus does not respond with an inflammation reaction.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on January 7, 2009, at 10:36:15
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I had a one-day total complete remission of all symptoms while on Doxy. It was taken for a boil. The stunning miraculous day was an eye opener for me and my doctor. Both of us said, "ahh-haaa".
Before that one day, I felt much worse in terms of depression and fatigue. It was unbearable. I felt like the walking dead. In hindsight, it was likely a brain and body flooded with dead corpses.
The normal course of treatment is to get worse first. Then random good days. More bad days. Good weeks, bad weeks. After several months, they are mostly good days and weeks. That's from the immune system adjusting in stages, and also directly related to the lifecycle of the bug being killed, and their cycle of coming out of hiding. I didn't get that far, but may have a chance as I see a specialist in this stuff next week. My Doxy experience told me one thing for sure...I am highly infected with something and it is directly linked to my depression.
I think a Doxy trial test would be a good diagnostic tool. If someone reacts badly, that is pretty good confirmation they have an infection at the root of their symptoms. If they react mildly or not at all, they can likely rule out an infection or inflammation. Simple enough.
What kind of infection could we have? Geez, so many. Top contenders are Lyme, its cousins, pneumonia clamydia, and others. People may never know what bug they had, only that they were cured with Doxy. There is a solid body of scientific evidence on this, as well as thousands of stories of people so psychiatrically ill they couldn't get out bed, who in a few months had a job, were dating, and going to school.
In my 15 year journey with psych meds from A to Z, I have never ever felt any kind of absolutely complete total remission as I did on Doxy. $10,000 of psych meds could not do what $50 of an antibiotic did. Unlike psych meds that produce a kind of artificial manipulated remission, Doxy remission felt solidly authentic, like how a normal healthy human being is supposed to feel.
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2009, at 11:07:32
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by bleauberry on January 7, 2009, at 10:36:15
Number l choice for lymes disease. Must be careful of sun exposure or horrible sunburn in a matter of minutes. Know from exerience. Phillipa
Posted by mknight on January 7, 2009, at 13:57:01
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I posted this before and Scott responded but it should be included in this thread.
After being on IV Cipro and Flagyl for 4 days, all of my physical and psychological symptoms completely disappeared for 6 months. I felt like a normal person. This happened twice after being in the same hospital, same antibiotics. The first time was an intestinal infection of unknown cause and the second time was a burst appendix with abdominal cavity infection.
Posted by bleauberry on January 7, 2009, at 16:51:47
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2009, at 11:07:32
> Number l choice for lymes disease. Must be careful of sun exposure or horrible sunburn in a matter of minutes. Know from exerience. Phillipa
I'll take a long sleeved shirt, sun block lotion, and a hat, over Lyme disease any day of the week thank you. Being careful of the sun while on Doxy compared to the crushing devastation of Lyme is no contest whatsoever. Kind of like comparing a grain of sand to the Alps.
Posted by ricker on January 7, 2009, at 20:00:28
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by bleauberry on January 7, 2009, at 16:51:47
Just wondering why 2 posters have replied with claims of miraculous results? Are you taking these antibiotics now.... if your results were so positive?
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2009, at 20:46:23
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » bleauberry, posted by ricker on January 7, 2009, at 20:00:28
Good question are you? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on January 8, 2009, at 7:27:44
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » bleauberry, posted by ricker on January 7, 2009, at 20:00:28
> Just wondering why 2 posters have replied with claims of miraculous results? Are you taking these antibiotics now.... if your results were so positive?
Do you believe that doxycyline can benefit some people presenting with depression?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 8, 2009, at 15:27:55
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » ricker, posted by SLS on January 8, 2009, at 7:27:44
Another observation that may bolster the idea that there is an inflammation-depression connection is that post-stroke patients often develop depression. The secretion of cytokines and resulting inflammation usually follows a stroke at the sites of ischemia. If the sites of inflammation reside in the areas responsible for mood, it is theorized that this is the mechanism by which depression evolves. Serotonin might be the mediating neurotransmitter.
- Scott
Posted by Abby Cunningham on January 8, 2009, at 17:30:17
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 8, 2009, at 15:27:55
I have low inflammation in my body as reflected on a C-reactive Protein test at my doctor's office, the one I had when they checked my cholesterol; still depressed though.
I wonder if I should take the doxycycline my dermatologist wants me to take? I have rosacea as a result of using a LIGHT BOX for SAD, how is that for ironic? Now no more light box, depression getting worse; also take wellbutrin. The light box helped but now caused the rosacea which is causing more depression! UV is low but still there and my derm feels it was the light box; never had rosacea before. and I'm old.
Abby
> Another observation that may bolster the idea that there is an inflammation-depression connection is that post-stroke patients often develop depression. The secretion of cytokines and resulting inflammation usually follows a stroke at the sites of ischemia. If the sites of inflammation reside in the areas responsible for mood, it is theorized that this is the mechanism by which depression evolves. Serotonin might be the mediating neurotransmitter.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by ricker on January 8, 2009, at 18:30:33
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » ricker, posted by SLS on January 8, 2009, at 7:27:44
> Do you believe that doxycyline can benefit some people presenting with depression?
>
>
> - ScottOh how I wish it were so, I suppose anything is possible. Perhaps some may have experienced a drug/drug reaction, I can't say for sure.
My experience is while taking an antibiotic (doxycycline) for a skin disorder such as a boil, sure, once the drug begins to do what it's intended to do, I feel somewhat better. Meaning I may not be so irritable or socially withdrawn once the boil on my face begins to subside. Not being able to exercise due to a carbuncle on my belt-line is another example. In that sense, yes, I feel better, but not from some therapeutic feel good sensation experienced during the course of treatment. Taking an antibiotic for a severe tooth abscess would make me feel better as well, I suppose.
Having been fed antibiotics like they were smarties throughout the 70's and 80's for chronic sore throats and skin infections has really changed my way of thought when it comes to their use.
Perhaps doxycycline possess a special property and some do feel better, I have yet to experience that. I would think the makers of doxy would be all over the potential with patents and whatnot?
On a side note, there is no history of depression in my family...on both sides, I'm the luck one. Strangely enough it surfaced after a 3 month course of accutane..... my life has never been the same!
I, along with millions of others, can only hope a drug such as doxycycline would bring a systemic treatment to the root cause of depression.
An interesting article indeed Scott, thanks for sharing.
Regards, Rick
Posted by Glydin 3.9 on January 8, 2009, at 20:16:34
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by ricker on January 8, 2009, at 18:30:33
Maybe better inflammatory fighters are what's needed. I don't know that killing (or not killing) a pathogen with "bug juice" is necessarily going to equal the going away of inflammatory changes.
I get a little, ah, antsy when I think of antibx and where their widespread use has led. I guess I've seen too much methcil resistant, vanc resistant, everything resistant super bugs and the complicated recoveries (sometimes, non-recoveries) arising from antibx overuses. Also, yeast balls in the heart on echocardigrams are none too attractive either.
Sign me,
Too close to the dark side of antibx use
and
Just another take.....
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 2:05:32
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Glydin 3.9 on January 8, 2009, at 20:16:34
Not sure which cytokines it inhibits, but it seems in general there are easie rways to reduce inflammation. What about this drug is unique?
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 2:05:32
> Not sure which cytokines it inhibits, but it seems in general there are easie rways to reduce inflammation. What about this drug is unique?
>
> -d/rDoxycycline inhibits cytokine production in the brain, even if it weren't to kill a single bug. It just happens to have antibiotic properties as well. One drug - two unconnected, yet synergistic properties. This is not a property shared by other types of antibiotics.
Tetracycline resistance already exists. I doubt that treating a few depressives would make things much worse. It sucks to have to give up global altruism for one's own health, but...
Producing an anti-inflammatory effect with more specific drugs would be nice. This is where the neurokinin receptor antagonists might come in.
- Scott
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 9, 2009, at 15:19:08
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
great post, the link between chronic inflammation and many many cases of depression is an open and closed argument in my book. Taking things that attenuate inflammation and lower inflammatory cytokines has been a god send and changed my life where as all AD'd did was make it suck worse.
And yeah, anti-biotic resistance is already here and the majority of those bacteria that have mutated have been the rampant use of anti-biotics used on livestock. A large majority of anti-biotics used in the US go to them and not people. The effect of the comparitively small amount of people using it for mental health purposes would be negligible.
Posted by West on January 9, 2009, at 16:49:35
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
Scott I would be concerned about long term effects on good bacteria in the gut and yes resistance is quite likely.
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 17:34:10
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
What makes you think the antibiotic aspect is improtant though? Does this affect some specific cytokine that you think is important?
-d/r
Posted by Sigismund on January 9, 2009, at 18:42:24
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 17:34:10
These black tea flavins are in my arthritis mixture, but I have drunk black tea like mad for years and I don't know what good it has done.
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 18:45:12
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by West on January 9, 2009, at 16:49:35
> Scott I would be concerned about long term effects on good bacteria in the gut and yes resistance is quite likely.
Good points. I don't know what the symptoms of disturbed intestinal flora are. During the 6 months of taking doxycycline, I don't recall having any problems.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:24:01
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 18:45:12
Even with infections resistance has built to antibiotics. Ear infections in kids no longer respond all the time to first line antibiotics. MRSA is rampant both in hospitals where it much more complex with flesh eating bacteria as vancomyacin no longer works. Personally have seen a lady have to have whole left leg amputated as she was unresponsive to vancomyacin. Docs are suggesting no antibiotics for some infections. Goodle MRSA as it is in the community and takes a long time to heal. It's suggested takeing probiotics with antibiotics to help keep healthy intestinal flora. We have good bugs in the intestine that protect us. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:38:54
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:24:01
Just one article of many Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 20:50:22
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Sigismund on January 9, 2009, at 18:42:24
> These black tea flavins are in my arthritis mixture, but I have drunk black tea like mad for years and I don't know what good it has done.
>
> http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=57&query=inflammatory%20cytokines&hiword=CYTOKINE%20CYTOKINEBASED%20CYTOKINESIS%20INFLAMMATION%20INFLAMMATIONS%20INFLAMMATORIES%20cytokines%20inflammatoryyes exactly there are many ways to decrease inflammation.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 21:55:53
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 20:50:22
> yes exactly there are many ways to decrease inflammation.
I'm sure there are.
The thing with doxycycline is that it seems to work in clinical settings. Unfortunately, the many other substances mentioned along this thread have not been tested to the best of my knowledge.
Brain inflammation as a characteristic of Alzheimers Dementia:
Doxycycline is effective in reducing inflammation by inhibiting matrix metalloproteinases:
A trial of doxycycline in Alzheimers Disease:
Taken together, these abstracts suggest that doxycycline reduces brain inflammation via a mechanism unrelated to its antibiotic effects, and that this drug is effective in treating Alzheimers Disease behavioral and mood aberations, presumably by reducing brain inflammation.I am sure that not all anti-inflammatories are built alike. I would be cautious in wanting to declare all anti-inflammatory substances of equal value in treating the various neuropsychiatric illnesses.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 0:20:21
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 21:55:53
Seriously is there a reason you're concerned with Alzheimer's? They do have new meds requip and others for Alzheimers. I think no sure there is also a test for Alzheimer's gene or something like that. I'd think periodic MRI's of brain would at least show normal aging of brain. Love Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on January 10, 2009, at 1:34:23
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 21:55:53
> > yes exactly there are many ways to decrease inflammation.
>
> I'm sure there are.
>
> The thing with doxycycline is that it seems to work in clinical settings. Unfortunately, the many other substances mentioned along this thread have not been tested to the best of my knowledge.
>
> Brain inflammation as a characteristic of Alzheimers Dementia:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18673008?ordinalpos=19&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> Doxycycline is effective in reducing inflammation by inhibiting matrix metalloproteinases:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19088876?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> A trial of doxycycline in Alzheimers Disease:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14962152?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> Taken together, these abstracts suggest that doxycycline reduces brain inflammation via a mechanism unrelated to its antibiotic effects, and that this drug is effective in treating Alzheimers Disease behavioral and mood aberations, presumably by reducing brain inflammation.
>
> I am sure that not all anti-inflammatories are built alike. I would be cautious in wanting to declare all anti-inflammatory substances of equal value in treating the various neuropsychiatric illnesses.
>
>
> - ScottYes, there is a multitude of inflammatory cytokines, but this thread is hardly littered with links to studies showing this particular drug is an effective antidepressant. I can't tell if you are arguing that it would be one, because it is antinflammatory, or that the reason it is effective is the antiinflamatory action. Either way i don't see much evidence.
-d/r
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