Posted by Dr. Bob on November 28, 2010, at 22:00:09
In reply to Re: And how about volunteer civility buddies?, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2010, at 1:57:49
> Maybe there can be a process where a member cited for incivility chooses i) get a Civility Buddy to walk them through the process of repairing the incivility and making it 'right'; or ii)default to however Bob wants to handle their incivility. This puts the power in the hands of the infractor. Maybe it can be set up for a temporary suspension of posting privileges by CB's until the infractor decides which route to take - and release of of the suspension is contingent on the infractor's cooperation with their Civility Buddy. There are a multitude of ways a Civility Buddy system can work when a potential block is being handled.
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> Solstice> I'm thinking of a Civility Buddy "process" where an incivil poster is 'deposited'.. and if they want to restore their posting privileges, they will walk through the process with a Civility Buddy to completion - satisfaction of your legitimate requirement that they repair the breech.
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> If a poster is cited for incivility, each and every time they will have to make a choice. i) CB Process; or ii) the mercy of Dr. Bob. That kind of a thing will TEACH them about the power they have in a tangible way.
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> "Power to stop posting" - while it certainly 'is' a choice they can make.. please understand that it seems silly to me to consider that viable. They are here because they want to post. Set something up that helps the folks who have not been able to keep themselves out of trouble.
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> These are folks whose emotions get hot very quickly. They need a structured process where their privileges are suspended - and they have to make a coice. Cooperate with a CB who will walk them to restoration, or opt for the mercy of Dr. Bob. You're asking people who's brains have been hijacked by hot emotions to think, reason, and figure things out as if they are in a more rational state. That is just not a fair expectation.. and in my estimation, that is why the blocks - even year long blocks - are not successful. It will never end if the status quo is maintained.
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> Civility Buddies would be an organized group of balanced, respected members who have volunteered to serve. An incivil poster who hasn't retracted on their own would be 'deposited' into the CB process. They would not be able to post, and would have a single decision to make. Either: i) work with a CB who is available; or ii) sit there and wait for a CB you like; or iii) throw yourself upon the mercy of Dr. Bob. If they need a space of time to restore their emotional 'baseline' - suspension of privileges provides that. Depending on the nature of the incivility and nature of the incivil poster, the CB 'process' could be hours short - or days/weeks long. If they become unacceptably incivil to the CB 'walking' with them, they can be defaulted to the mercy of Dr. Bob. I think the main thing is that this kind of process would provide the space of time for emotions to cool, for rationality to be restored, and for them to work with someone who can model for them - a peer who can help them understand where their communication crossed the line.
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> Entirely eliminating blocks is unrealistic. But this provides a process that is flexible and responsive to a poster's willingness to learn and cooperate.
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> Solstice> I think it's really important to point out that some civility buddies might not be comfortable with a forced civility buddy situation, and that's perfectly ok. There is a very different dynamic with people who voluntarily seek advice.
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> For those volunteers who feel comfortable with that situation, mandatory civility buddies could certainly be an option. Dr. Bob was enthusiastic about the idea a while back, but posters were less enthusiastic.
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> Dinah> Right now, the Civility Buddy system is informal. (let me know if I don't understand it correctly). If someone is getting upset about something, they can contact their CB and do a 'consult.' Vent... have a post reviewed before submittal... get guidance about staying inside the lines.
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> Maybe the informal CB set up that exists would continue just as it is. The people who use it, though, are not the ones I'm hoping to help. I'd speculate they don't end up with gross blocks. Maybe a PBC from time to time, but they have figured out how to help themselves stay out of trouble.
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> A 'formal' CB process would of course be staffed by volunteers as well. Those volunteering for it would obviously have to recognize that most of those 'deposited' in the formal CB process are walking in without an understanding of why what they posted was not civil. They might indeed be upset. Bob could 'suspend' their posting privileges while they decide whether to cooperate with the CB process or not. If they opt to cooperate, their immediate motivation will be avoiding a block. If they fight against the CB assisting them, become incivil toward their CB, etc.. then they will end up in Bob's hands. I think what it will alllow for is 1) Takes Bob out of the equation - the whole trigger-finger with the blocks thing; 2) a suspension of posting privilege with the very real possibility of avoiding a regular block; 3) a cool-off period where they may recover nicely on their own - or at least be willing to genuinely engage in the CB process that will get them where they want to go - which is actively posting. As peers, CB's will be able to talk to and relate to these folks much better than Bob can in his role as admin. He is perceived as a bona fide threat - especially by those who get blocked repeatedly.
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> I don't think it should be viewed or characterized as "forcing" anyone or anything. As it is, people commit various levels of incivility and there is only one option - they are at the mercy of Bob's perceptions - his time to process it in context - and whether they colored outside the lines before and have a block escalation thing going on. They can still choose that route. That would actuallly be the 'default.' But with what I'm talking about, they could also opt for assistance by a cohesive group of Civility Buddies who are committed to the process of modeling, explaining, teaching civil responses and repair work to members who got off track. Anyone who wants to fight against that probably needs to be blocked. At least, though, they'd have the choice. And even for those who end up blocked - there could be a mechanism where they come back when they are ready and contact a 'formal' CB to start the process of repair.
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> why don't you just play with the ideas. Run scenarios through your head. I an really, really good at problem-solving and designing systems so I will help in any way I can to help put something together that will work for the community in its goal to have a more merciful system for addressing incivility than the one in place now.
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> No one would be 'forced' to use a CB. It would not be mandatory. That would be fraught with problems. Incivil posters would have to choose it to get access. If they don't choose it - then they just go the current route and are at Bob's mercy. He can just block away - and no one need feel distressed about it, because they opted for it themselves. Of course.. if their head clears later and they decide using a CB might be to their benefit afterall... then they are welcome to access the CB system at that point... and after they have worked though the process.. the block they'd initially opted for becomes unnecessary.
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> I just don't think the punishing nature of the current blocking set-up facilitates what Bob wants to create. You've aptly cited the big problem with overlooking the offending poster's willingness to get within the lines. That is huge. And I think that even if there is a delay in that willingness rising to the surface - as soon as a blocked poster voices they are willing - they should be welcomed with open arms into the process. There's no place in the system for incessant arguing about blocks - and PBC's - but I think that with the process I'm suggesting - there would be no need to argue about blocks.
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> Solstice> I think part of what you like about this whole 'civility monitor' and 'elders council' idea is that it focuses the community on supporting your decisions to make people stop using breath spray to detract from the issue of your (unfairly) labeling people 'uncivil' and blocking them for it.
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> alexandra_k> I agree that it sounds complicated... but I think that operationally, it's a lot less complicated than it looks. Lots of new ideas are being thrown into the hat, which is good - but looks complicated - until we pick out the ones that we pick out and piece together to build the framework.
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> We don't have a system yet, so let's just talk about Civility Buddies. In what I envision, they would not be "Little Bob's" scouring the site for incivilities. They wouldn't issue PBC's or blocks. The people volunteering to serve already have a history of being what I think of as "Levelers" or "Peacemakers." With no systemn at all, they already tend to step in when things are heating up and blow cool wind into the mix... and do so very effectively. This would just be a formalization of their role as "Peacemakers." They are not "juries," much less "judges."
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> Civility Buddies - whether informal or formal, are NOT a recreation of Deputies. Maybe they don't need any power at all. They are identiefied.. maybe they have a CB after their names.. for example Dinah's would say: Dinah, CB. That way it would be easy to find one when you need one - and no one would have to keep track of remembering who all is in that role. They'd be active posters anyway - so CB's will be visibly present.
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> The only one who has the authority to PBC or Block would be Dr. Bob. He would continue to identify and cite incivilities, just as he does now. PBC's would work just like they do now. Maybe CB's would notice a PBC, because the PBC'd poster might (or might not) access the informal Civility Buddy system. The formal CB process isn't activated until Bob issues a Block. Civility Buddies wouldn't be responsible for issuing PBC's or blocks. They are not the police. The CB system is more like the bail bondsmen, so-to-speak. Maybe the only 'power' they have is to release a poster who's posting privilege has been suspended, based on that poster's cooperation with the CB process.
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> The goal is NOT to hunt down incivilities. The goal is to restore posting privileges to members who find themselves blocked (or in danger of a block) by Bob.
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> And in reality - there really don't seem to be that many PBC's or blocks, but I only frequent Psychology, Social and Admin. On those boards days and weeks can go by before I see a PBC.. and longer before I see a block.
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> I hope what I'm describing sounds like something folks can work with. And bottom line is that as it is, Bob issues PBC's, block warnings, and blocks at his own discretion as it is. The system I'm thinking of wouldn't change that. It would just provide a mechanism for repair to take place.. for blocks to be released.. for privileges to be restored.. for much less contention over valued posters being 'banished.' Posters themselves would, in essence, be setting the length of their blocks... because accessing the Civility Buddy system is the key that unlocks the block.
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> MAIN THING: No judges or juries. Nobody scouring the site for incivilities. Everybody has the right to monitor their own selves, including asking for help if they find themselves getting 'heated.' If they find themselves facing a block (or find themselves blocked), rather than them or others fighting the merits of the citation, they can call on a CB to help them work their way out of the block. CB's won't always be available. They may have to wait hours or days to get through the process - but they won't be waiting weeks, months, or a year for relief.
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> Solstice> The only informal civility buddy system that exists now are between two posters who work out an arrangement for themselves.
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> Dr. Bob has *just* ok'd a concept where people would be available to answer civility questions, or in general be open to helping posters who ask to get comfortable with the civility guidelines or avoid blocks.
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> It's a far different thing to be involved with pairing up with a poster who would be blocked otherwise, even if they chose the civility buddy as the lesser of two evils. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but it's a different level of commitment, and a different level of stress. If a poster felt willing to volunteer to do that, it'd be great. For myself, it would depend on my relationship with the poster. It's been my experience from previous suggestions from Dr. Bob along these lines that posters don't really appreciate the idea of having someone check their posts. The resulting tension could be difficult.
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> Peacemakers don't *have* to be certified by Dr. Bob, or have any special title. Dr. Bob would prefer, from what I gather of his posts, that all posters be peacemakers. Stepping into a current situation unasked is probably best done by those posters who believe they can help in that given situation. And perhaps best not done by someone who has been appointed to do so, due to the resentment that can arise. Or at least that's been my experience. Dr. Bob and other posters may believe differently.
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> I know you've read the archives. Are you aware of the anger that can result from efforts to help? I suspect that anyone with formal standing may be seen as a tool of Dr. Bob. Any effort to get people to follow site guidelines can realistically be seen that way, no matter the intent of the helper. That might lessen the effectiveness of an intervention.
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> But perhaps my previous experience makes me overly cautious.
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> Dinah> > I think part of what you like about this whole 'civility monitor' and 'elders council' idea is that it focuses the community on supporting your decisions
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> I'm thinking the point of it is to get people to comply with the civility guidelines, whatever their feelings or beliefs. Is that such a bad thing for Dr. Bob to want?
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> Is a reduction of blocks only a good thing to you if it comes from Dr. Bob changing his standards?
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> Dinah> Let me re-emphasize that it's definitely one thing for a poster to reach out to a friend to ask for or offer help. It is an entirely different thing to have a group of CB's who are volunteering to assist posters they may not have much of a relationship with.
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> Nobody will be checking anybody's posts, except when a a poster has (usually behind-the-scenes) asked someone to review their post. In the formal CB system, a 'bad' post has already been made. If the poster can live with the block - then all is well. If they want relief, then they have to reach out to a CB and say they want to repair. If they don't understand why their post got them blocked, the CB will dialogue with them - I'm guessing off-forum, and help them understand - questions and responses going back and forth between them. The CB can do what happens all the time here - offer alternative perceptions to the one the blocked poster held that turned up the heat on their emotions. If the incivil poster cannot figure out how to rephrase or apologize, the CB helps with that too. The CB is a guide - not an enforcer, and certainly not responsible for generating the blocked poster's willingness to repair. Once repair is made, the suspension is released. If the incivil poster is not able to sustain civility, that's where the cool-down phase comes in. It would not be the responsibility of a CB to 'make' an incivil poster get lined up with civility guidelines. The blocked poster has the possibility of getting unblocked, but it is up to them to access and cooperate with the system. If they won't or can't, then they are in effect justifying their block. CB's are not responsible for getting people out of trouble, or pleading with Bob for leniency, etc. An individual CB does not *have* to accept a blocked posters request for help. If past interractions are likely to be triggering for CB's, CB's first responsibility is to take care of their own well-being. They are volunteering the HELP - they are NOT volunteering to be argued with or verbally abused.
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> It's important to understand that this system is not designed to eliminate blocks! It is simply a mechanism for blocked posters who have the 'willingness' you've referred to before, to repair the breech and restore themselves - to learn from the lapse. What it has the opportunity to eliminate - are the blocks that take place for small steps over the line - especially those inadvertent ones that Bob has found incivil but few others 'see' it and the poster certainly didn't mean to be incivil. Maybe they just let their mouth run away with them. Or got silly and said "f*art" without the asterick." Maybe they misunderstood something and reacted too quickly. Currently, the swift (and exponential) blocks tend to push those folks past the point of no return. They probably wouldn't have gone there on their own - but a block, or the threat of a block was more than they were equipped to handle. Ron1953 (I think those numbers are right?) is a case in point. Toe moves over that mysterious line... then his emotions heat up in anticipation under the cloud of threat - and he goes from a 1 to a 10 on the incivility scale. There is a way to circumvent those things. I think Bob has tried to address it when he established the whole apology procedure. He warns of a block - then gives the poster time to repharase or apologize. It works a good part of the time. But there are posters with certain vulnerabilities that it will not work for... and their heated emotions are a huge obstacle.
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> So the civility guidelines stay the same. Bob can cite anything he deems uncivil as incivil. No one has to waste any time or energy trying to get him to see it differently. The poster has an avenue of relief that will get Bob what he wants, and will get that monkey off the poster's back, if they are willing to cooperate with the process. Not everyone will. And some may initially be so angry that they storm off. But when things cool down and their better judgment kicks back in.. they would now have a way to come back and say "ok, CB.. I need to fix this thing." It sort of takes out the punishment component. The consequence is still there - but it does not have to be 'punishment.'
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> I think the CB concept needs a set of guidelines for how it will operate - what the expectations are. Everyone needs to know - forum-wide. This is what CB's can do: 1, 2, 3, 4.. This is what CB's will NOT need to concern themselves with: 1, 2, 3, 4.. And any CB subjected to abusive interraction can drop that poster like a hot potatoe to sit in the confines of their block. Some incivil posters might end up doing that.. but that is not the fault of the CB. CB's don't have to 'put up' with anything. Tney are not admninistrators, not police, not judges/juries, not responsible for Bob's civility guidelines in the first place, and are certainly not responsible for changing his mind about anything. Posters also need a set of guidelines for how the process will work - what they can expect - etc.
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> If everyone were a peacemaker, this support forum would have no reason to exist. It wouldn't exist, because no one would be here. And there will always be 'peacemakers' on the forum who are doing what comes naturally to them - but they haven't signed up to be CB's.
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> as long as someone who is blocked remains angry and contentious... they will not be ready to come back in. If they are blocked, they can't be incivil while they work thru their anger. Maybe they get help from their therapist - and then later come back and appropriately ask for help. No one is responsible for anyone else's anger. But CB's don't have to put up with abuse. Only blocked posters who want their services will get that help. No CB *has* to try to fix a situation a poster got themselves into and is not ready to fix.
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> I may have not used the best word when I used 'intervene' ... CB's are certainly at liberty to offer help - but it really should be the blocked poster who initiates the process. It can't be forced. But it can be available.. and if Bob agrees with the concept that posters who can demonstrate reparation don't need to be blocked, then this system can provide for that. It's really just like you've been saying all along - right now there is not any provision for blocked posters who are willing to line up. Maybe this way, there can be.
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> Solstice> You do have good ideas, Solstice
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> Dinah> Posters who got blocked might not agree that their post was incivil. They may think the block is unfair. But if they want the block lifted, they will have to cooperate with a CB who can help them figure out how to think and feel about what happened in a way that helps themn stay within the guidelines and make repair - even if they don't feel like what they said did any harm. ... We have to defer to Bob's civility guidelines because it is his site. Someone has to set the standard. He gets to make the rules for the 'world' he created. A Babbler that's been blocked is a little like that 'disruptive part' you mentioned. They are told to take a back seat. Then a Civility Buddy can 'sit down with them' and try to help them figure it out.
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> There is just no way to avoid the reality that we have a Leader who has some authority that no one else can have. It's the only way for a group to survive and thrive.
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> I think trust will build over time if the system works. Bob won't look like such a 'bad guy' because blocked members would have the ability to get themselves out of trouble. Not by duking it out with him over the merits of the block, but by putting themselves into the CB process to make reparations.
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> Solstice--
Is this idea like the "mandatory civility buddies" we've discussed before?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20051205/msgs/597469.html
To recap, that idea was that as an alternative to being blocked, a poster could choose to have their posts go through (be approved by) someone else before being posted.
It would be mandatory in that their posts would have to go through someone else. It wouldn't be mandatory in that they wouldn't have to choose that alternative, they could just be blocked (for not as long). Both the mandatory civility buddies and the "voluntary civility buddies" also being discussed now:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969367.html
would be volunteers.
And both would review posts. That's where I wonder if these ideas diverge. Would these "formal civility buddies" not review posts and have the power to lift blocks? If so, then IMO this is more like some kind of Elders Council:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969323.html
Bob
a brilliant and reticent Web mastermind -- The New York Times
backpedals well -- PartlyCloudy
poster:Dr. Bob
thread:964630
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/971666.html