Posted by Solstice on November 10, 2010, at 9:24:43
In reply to Re: I'm pro-frame » Solstice, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 7:59:57
Dinah - your wealth of experience behind your contributions is what can bring this thing to life.
And for the record - I didn't swoop in here hoping to 'sell' a bunch of novel ideas that I came up with. I've silently been part of this group for a long, long time. None of the ideas or concepts I've presented are mine. They came from everyone here who has been actively talking (or arguing :-) about it. I'm just really good at taking all the ideas, and being able to 'see' how they can fit together most effectively. And I'm good at problem-solving. None of this stuff is mine, though - - everything in the structure I envision is comprised of pieces large and small that members have been suggesting and talking about for years. I just want to glue this thing together and see if we can't present Bob with something that will meet his objectives. That is the best chance for success. There would be nothing 'in it' for him to oppose a well constructed system of achieving his objectives for civility.
> The only informal civility buddy system that exists now are between two posters who work out an arrangement for themselves. There's no way of knowing how often it's used. I don't hear a lot of talk about it at all.
That's what I've gathered.. and I think participating in this kind of arrangement requires a level of sophistication in self-monitoring that doesn't come as easily to posters who are heating up as Bob expects. The posters I am really hoping to help are the 'frequent-fliers' of the current discipline system.
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> Dr. Bob has *just* ok'd a concept where people would be available to answer civility questions, or in general be open to helping posters who ask to get comfortable with the civility guidelines or avoid blocks. It's a brand new idea, and I'm not sure what will happen with it. The only designation would be a list of people who are willing to do it.I think this concept is imbedded in the informal and formal Civility Buddy concepts. From my foxhole, I've seen a long history of evidence that the heartbeat of PsychoBabble is to be welcoming and helpful to newcomers and each other. Of course there are times when someone's vulnerability to irritation or anger results in them stepping out of line. But as a rule, that's not where the members' hearts are. The intent of their hearts is to respectfully co-exist. Sometimes a member will lose their way - but that's what this is about - a mechanism for them to find their way back.
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> It's a far different thing to be involved with pairing up with a poster who would be blocked otherwise, even if they chose the civility buddy as the lesser of two evils.You are exactly right. Posters who tend to get blocked end up in that situation because for myriad reasons, they have trouble with their emotions heating up and getting away from them. When emotions are 'hot,' good judgment shuts down - which is why the expectation that they will be able to 'make better choices' on their own isn't realistic. If they could do that, they would.
Let me re-emphasize that it's definitely one thing for a poster to reach out to a friend to ask for or offer help. It is an entirely different thing to have a group of CB's who are volunteering to assist posters they may not have much of a relationship with.
> I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but it's a different level of commitment, and a different level of stress. If a poster felt willing to volunteer to do that, it'd be great. For myself, it would depend on my relationship with the poster. It's been my experience from previous suggestions from Dr. Bob along these lines that posters don't really appreciate the idea of having someone check their posts.Nobody will be checking anybody's posts, except when a a poster has (usually behind-the-scenes) asked someone to review their post. In the formal CB system, a 'bad' post has already been made. If the poster can live with the block - then all is well. If they want relief, then they have to reach out to a CB and say they want to repair. If they don't understand why their post got them blocked, the CB will dialogue with them - I'm guessing off-forum, and help them understand - questions and responses going back and forth between them. The CB can do what happens all the time here - offer alternative perceptions to the one the blocked poster held that turned up the heat on their emotions. If the incivil poster cannot figure out how to rephrase or apologize, the CB helps with that too. The CB is a guide - not an enforcer, and certainly not responsible for generating the blocked poster's willingness to repair. Once repair is made, the suspension is released. If the incivil poster is not able to sustain civility, that's where the cool-down phase comes in. It would not be the responsibility of a CB to 'make' an incivil poster get lined up with civility guidelines. The blocked poster has the possibility of getting unblocked, but it is up to them to access and cooperate with the system. If they won't or can't, then they are in effect justifying their block. CB's are not responsible for getting people out of trouble, or pleading with Bob for leniency, etc. An individual CB does not *have* to accept a blocked posters request for help. If past interractions are likely to be triggering for CB's, CB's first responsibility is to take care of their own well-being. They are volunteering the HELP - they are NOT volunteering to be argued with or verbally abused.
It's important to understand that this system is not designed to eliminate blocks! It is simply a mechanism for blocked posters who have the 'willingness' you've referred to before, to repair the breech and restore themselves - to learn from the lapse. What it has the opportunity to eliminate - are the blocks that take place for small steps over the line - especially those inadvertent ones that Bob has found incivil but few others 'see' it and the poster certainly didn't mean to be incivil. Maybe they just let their mouth run away with them. Or got silly and said "f*art" without the asterick." Maybe they misunderstood something and reacted too quickly. Currently, the swift (and exponential) blocks tend to push those folks past the point of no return. They probably wouldn't have gone there on their own - but a block, or the threat of a block was more than they were equipped to handle. Ron1953 (I think those numbers are right?) is a case in point. Toe moves over that mysterious line... then his emotions heat up in anticipation under the cloud of threat - and he goes from a 1 to a 10 on the incivility scale. There is a way to circumvent those things. I think Bob has tried to address it when he established the whole apology procedure. He warns of a block - then gives the poster time to repharase or apologize. It works a good part of the time. But there are posters with certain vulnerabilities that it will not work for... and their heated emotions are a huge obstacle.
So the civility guidelines stay the same. Bob can cite anything he deems uncivil as incivil. No one has to waste any time or energy trying to get him to see it differently. The poster has an avenue of relief that will get Bob what he wants, and will get that monkey off the poster's back, if they are willing to cooperate with the process. Not everyone will. And some may initially be so angry that they storm off. But when things cool down and their better judgment kicks back in.. they would now have a way to come back and say "ok, CB.. I need to fix this thing." It sort of takes out the punishment component. The consequence is still there - but it does not have to be 'punishment.'
> The resulting tension could be difficult.I think the CB concept needs a set of guidelines for how it will operate - what the expectations are. Everyone needs to know - forum-wide. This is what CB's can do: 1, 2, 3, 4.. This is what CB's will NOT need to concern themselves with: 1, 2, 3, 4.. And any CB subjected to abusive interraction can drop that poster like a hot potatoe to sit in the confines of their block. Some incivil posters might end up doing that.. but that is not the fault of the CB. CB's don't have to 'put up' with anything. Tney are not admninistrators, not police, not judges/juries, not responsible for Bob's civility guidelines in the first place, and are certainly not responsible for changing his mind about anything. Posters also need a set of guidelines for how the process will work - what they can expect - etc.
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> But what I really want is to clarify to those considering volunteering that that would be an additional level of commitment they could volunteer for. This is a new concept, and I think it might deter volunteers if they were unsure of the level of responsibility that would be involved. At this point, volunteering would just mean being willing to help those who are unsure of the rules, or I statements, or Dr. Bob's requirements.yes - it is essential to eliminate uncertainty about expectations. There might need to be a "Babble Civility Management" section on the website with the guidelines and expectations posted.
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> Anything to do with the council of elders would be separate entirely. That would be a different subset of posters, although I suppose the subsets could intersect.
That's exactly what i was thinking.
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> Peacemakers don't *have* to be certified by Dr. Bob, or have any special title. Dr. Bob would prefer, from what I gather of his posts, that all posters be peacemakers.Of course.. but is that genuinely realistic? No. If everyone were a peacemaker, this support forum would have no reason to exist. It wouldn't exist, because no one would be here. And there will always be 'peacemakers' on the forum who are doing what comes naturally to them - but they haven't signed up to be CB's.
> Stepping into a current situation unasked is probably best done by those posters who believe they can help in that given situation.You're right. But that's how it takes place now anyway. Someone's heating up, and some peacemaker comes along to help diffuse things. They just do that naturally.
>And perhaps best not done by someone who has been appointed to do so, due to the resentment that can arise. Or at least that's been my experience.
I can see what you're talking about - and I think you're right about that. Maybe CB's won't be responsible for stepping in to diffuse situations.. that can take place like it takes place now. When it works - all is well. When it doesn't, there might be a blocked poster who needs a CB to help them get themselves out of hock.
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> I know you've read the archives. Are you aware of the anger that can result from efforts to help? I suspect that anyone with formal standing may be seen as a tool of Dr. Bob.That's possible. Esepecially initially. However, for as long as someone who is blocked remains angry and contentious... they will not be ready to come back in. If they are blocked, they can't be incivil while they work thru their anger. Maybe they get help from their therapist - and then later come back and appropriately ask for help. No one is responsible for anyone else's anger. But CB's don't have to put up with abuse. Only blocked posters who want their services will get that help. No CB *has* to try to fix a situation a poster got themselves into and is not ready to fix.
>Any effort to get people to follow site guidelines can realistically be seen that way, no matter the intent of the helper. That might lessen the effectiveness of an intervention.
I may have not used the best word when I used 'intervene,' because you are right. CB's are certainly at liberty to offer help - but it really should be the blocked poster who initiates the process. It can't be forced. But it can be available.. and if Bob agrees with the concept that posters who can demonstrate reparation don't need to be blocked, then this system can provide for that. It's really just like you've been saying all along - right now there is not any provision for blocked posters who are willing to line up. Maybe this way, there can be.
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> But perhaps my previous experience makes me overly cautious.No - your previous experience makes you wise and just the person to refine the ideas I'm proposing. You think of everything (obstacle) you can - and we'll figure it out. With your help, we may have all the bugs worked out from the get-go :-)
Solstice
Solstice
poster:Solstice
thread:965628
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969573.html