Posted by Joe Schmoe on October 3, 2003, at 9:19:28
In reply to Re: Choline idea is BS?, posted by linkadge on October 3, 2003, at 8:42:57
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
> The discontinuation happens for this reason.
>
> When you boost serotonin levels, there is a corresponding drop in dopamine levels (through activation of 5ht2 receptors)I should note I have also been taking Wellbutrin for some time, and my Celexa dose was only 20mg, so I suspect my dopamine levels may not have been that low. I stopped taking Wellbutrin during the Celexa withdrawal just to see if it made any difference - it didn't, and I haven't resumed it yet. I like Wellbutrin because I can go on and off it at will with no side effects.
>Anyhow, over time the dopamine receptors increase their sensitivity in order to compensate for less dopamine.
Well, if that is true, I have to wonder why, after two years of Celexa, I still had virtually no libido.
> Anyhow when you discontinue, process happens in reverse. Dopamine levles resume to predrug status, which is only intesified by supersensitive receptors. This is why you can actually have a high shortly after discontinuing.I did not experience this. I know what a dopamine surge feels like from the first few weeks of taking Wellbutrin and I felt nothing like that during this withdrawal. My appetite was not affected, I did not lose weight, and I felt no increase in libido either. I am still waiting for my libido to return actually.
> Anyhow, low serotonin and high dopamine causes the symptoms of discontinuation such as depression, anger, rage, panic, crying, feeling hot all of a sudden, feeling so utterly wronged.Well it seems obvious low serotonin has something to do with it, but the scientific report I cited made reference to low acetylcholine, not high dopamine, during SSRI withdrawal. Is there a paper that advocates the high dopamine theory? I certainly did not feel any speed-like effects over the last several weeks.
> Boosting cholinergic transmission can intesify that by increasing dopaminergic transmission.I admit I have never read anything about this one way or the other. Is choline given to Parkinson's patients?
> Not to mention that choline itself can perpetuate depression and is generally an ill-advised nutrient for people suffering from depression.
That may be, but depression is not the problem at this point - discontinuation of Celexa is, despite a gradual taper. In the last 24 hours I have finally started to feel some improvement and can walk in a (mostly) straight line.
> The only way to get off an SSRI sucessfully is to slowly let the system adjust to less serotonin.
That sounds reasonable.
> To avoid withdrawl symptoms you must taper the drug over the course of weeks to months.
I did taper it, starting at 20, which is a low dose to begin with, and going to 10mg for a week, then 5mg for a week, then 2.5mg for a week. I was surprised by the severity f the withdrawal. I am also on Klonopin so I was surprised by the amount of anxiety and phobia-like symptoms I have experienced.
> Other ways are to try an support the serotogenic system in other ways - perhaps more taperable ways - such as supplements like magnesium, folic acid, 5htp, exercise.I guess my point is that if you boost serotonin levels you are in effect going backwards in the taper process. At this point I just want to get it over with.
> The problem is that when you discontinue an SSRI you get biologically angry, and you project that anger onto the drug that you took.Well, onto the drug companies anyway. :-)
>If your withdrawl is severe, you need to resume some of the initial dose. And taper more slowly.
Unfortunately I have come to regard these things as something of a poison to be gotten out of my system at all costs.
> Oh - and I forgot to mention blueberry extract, boosts neurogenesis which can help you cope while the system adjusts.Sounds like an interesting subject in itself.
poster:Joe Schmoe
thread:264315
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030928/msgs/265176.html