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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 63 to 87 of 166. Go back in thread:
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 17:19:56
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 17:11:00
Posted by dreamerz on February 1, 2003, at 18:35:42
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 17:11:00
Like Nikki I live in area where white is minority--I prefer it that way , the people I meet joke about themselves -playing around with the stereotypes that folks may put them in .I don't get any bother from anyone--in fact the opposite ...but of course there are always bad apples.
If someone feels like they have to be hyper careful about offending someone then they have a problem..
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 19:42:11
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 17:11:00
NikkiT2,
You wrote, [...ALL jokes make fun of someone or something...]. That is why I asked you to clarify, [...are you saying, then, that posts that make fun of people, are to be permitted to be posted here because, in general,you can not think of a joke that does not...]?
You now write that [...I did not say this was acceptable or unacceptable...]. That is why I had asked you for clarification, because you left that part unclarified.
But on a different note, I am objecting to this board allowing posts that demean peoples. I objected in the past to the posts demeaning Islamic people. I objected in the past to posts that defame Jewish people. I objected in the past to a post that offered a link to a web site from a political person that posted hate to others including jews. And I have objected to other posts. I am objecting to the post here that now writes about "rednecks" and portreys them in a demeaning manner.I believe, and I have seen the damage done to our young people by others, that think that they commit harmlessness by defaming others under the banner of "joking". To me , I beieve, IMHO, that there should not be allowed these type of posts here for they could be detrimental to the mental health of our young people and that is why I had asked you for clarification. I do not see that those type of posts are "jokes". I do not believe that to make fun of people or to ridicule people is funny at all. I consider "making fun of people" and "jokes that make fun of people" are equilvalent. If you do not mind being the target of an "ethnic joke", then this for you to decide. But I want this board to prohibit those type of posts because there are people that could be hurt by those type of posts , even adults, and I believe that we should be aware of that and consider the sensitivity of others. And Dr. Bob states something similar in his rules for posting. And I wholheartedly agree with him. I do not believe that [all] jokes make fun of people or something. That is an imparitive that ,if true, could allow all kinds of hatred to others on the guise of "joking" and this board could be a haven for hate for the posters that wanted to promulgate hate could put their hate in the form of a joke, and I am dedicated to doing whatever I must do within the bounds of legality to prevent that from happening here. That is why I had asked you for clarification.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 20:23:34
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 15:53:43
NikkiT2,
You wrote, [...I was pointing out that if OddipusRex had made a joke, then he would have been making fun of someone...]
Could you clarify if the following as to if they[...make fun of somebody?...]. If you think that if one or more do make fun of sombody, could you clarify how that is visible? If you could, then I could understand more about what you wrote when you wrote,[...if OR made a joke, then he would be making fun of somebody.]
BOOK TITLES
..The French Chef
by Sue Fley
..Tight Situation
by Leah Tard
..Lewis Carroll
by Alison Wonderland
..Why Cars Stop
by M.T. Tank
..Mountain Climbing
by Andover Hand
Lou
Posted by syringachalet on February 1, 2003, at 21:15:07
In reply to Re: Try to understand OTHER'S view » jay, posted by jane d on February 1, 2003, at 12:46:34
Jay and All,
I would be lying to myself and you if I said I wasnt a tiny bit bigoted or prejudiced about most issues brought up on this site.
This simple issue of what a 'redneck' is just one very basic example.I try to remember that most of the 'rednecks' I know pay their taxes, treat their familys with love and respect and obey the laws as they stand (even if they dont always agree) until those laws are changed in a court of law or by another branch of our government.
I think that for me, in my dealings with some of the special population I work with in the corrections system, tolerance is a word that is the cornerstone for communications and functional relationships.
I dont not have to like, agree or accept your opinions or way of life. But as long as it doesnt cause harm to anyone else and all partys involved continue that have their OWN free choice to accept or decline your ideas, then I am more
than willing to tolerant your thoughts and actions. For me to attempt anything else, would be a waste of my time and yours.I am sure, no doubt, that you all already know that only time someone else has control over you and your life is if that person(s) have something that you feel you need or want.
If you feel you need acceptance or approval of that person, you also need to decide just what is it worth to you.I had a client tell me just the other day that she had turned her whole life upside down to please someone she admired and then she was hurt deeply when they didnt share in her commitment to their relationship. Obviously, the realtionship was much more valuable to her than it was to them.
All I ask is for each of us to take a moment and look deep inside ourselves and ask, Is all the effort I am putting into this job, relationship, etc REALLy worth it in the end?
Will my life be that much different if I do it
or not?
For many things in life, for me, tolerance is the first step to having a functional relationship with anyone.
If that person that you care so much about doesnt value your relationship as much as you, are you able to accept that status?
(No cant ever make someone else love or genuinely repect them if that other person cant do it on their own.)
For me the chain has always been... tolerance, acceptance and hopefully understanding...
.. as being a 'redneck', my grandmother used to say these two things...1) Maybe you should ask yourself," Is the price of these eggs to high?( Is it really worth all this?)
2) Never try to teach a pig to sing.....
it wastes your time and annoys the pig... LOl
syringachalet
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2003, at 0:28:51
In reply to I *don't* have/or want to *understand* bigotry! » jane d, posted by jay on February 1, 2003, at 13:22:41
> I *will not* apologize for calling somebody ignorant who thinks a certain race of people should sit in the back of a bus.
> I have *no* problem making fun of bigots!
Calling people ignorant and making fun of them isn't supportive. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2003, at 0:34:50
In reply to Re: My dear Ms IsoM, posted by justyourlaugh on January 31, 2003, at 19:30:42
> i just ordered a pizza with african american olives on it-want a slice?
Sorry, but I need to ask you not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. I hope you understand. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2003, at 0:36:24
In reply to I will stick to deadly dull subjects from now on.. (nm), posted by IsoM on February 1, 2003, at 1:57:57
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2003, at 0:41:27
In reply to Ethnic Jokes, posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
> This forum is a public place. Jokes that people may choose to tell in private are not appropriate here.
I think that's a key point, the setting makes a difference. And of course it applies to comments besides jokes, too...
> http://www.bctf.ca/social/BuildingBridges/support/respond.html
And that was a nice discussion of possible ways to respond, thanks for finding and posting it.
Bob
Posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 3:34:50
In reply to Re: Shall we agree to differ?, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 10:19:06
> I just hope that you understand and respect why we feel differently.
......This is a general comment about anybody who asks to be understood (NOT directly at you, Dinah!!). I believe it is not possible in most instances to understand how someone feels unless we feel the same way.
......However, I DO believe it is possible, and desirable, to ACCEPT that someone feels a certain way. So often, there seems to be upsets and eruptions in real life because someone doesn't understand how we feel, we feel misunderstood, don't see how someone can't see our point of view as logical and reasonable.
........Seems the best we can offer each other is acceptance. I accept that there are people in this thread who feel one way about redneck jokes, and some who feel another way. I'm more inclined to agree with one side than the other. However, I can respect everyone's right to their own opinion.
Shar
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 3:42:15
In reply to More semantics stuff, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 3:34:50
Hey, that's fine. It's actually what I meant, anyway.
(Although, honestly, there are very few topics on which reasonable people disagree that I don't *understand* both sides of the issue. I may not agree, but I understand.)
Posted by IsoM on February 2, 2003, at 4:00:27
In reply to Re: More semantics stuff » shar, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 3:42:15
I didn't even know rednecks existed. I leave for a couple of days & come back & see this long thread over my original post. Whooaa! So I start reading through it & find these definitions of rednecks.
Okay, first, I live in Canada near the very cosmopolitan city of Vancouver - filled with all sorts of racial & ethnic types - a wonderful variety. You could find restaurants serving any sort of food from around the world there. But the furthest south I've been is Seattle & that was many, many years ago.
I figured rednecks were simply a caricature about hillbilly type people that didn't exist, or so I thought...
Sheeze, folks, I didn't know there really were people like that! Still find it hard to believe. I thought it was a joke like portraying Canadians as people living in igloos with 10 months of winter, all riding sleds with teams of huskies - something that's funny because it isn't like that.I still think my humour piece was funny, & I have trouble believing anyone would fit those descriptions. No one acts in that crude a manner. At least, I sure hope not.
Posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 4:02:51
In reply to Re: More semantics stuff » shar, posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 3:42:15
> (Although, honestly, there are very few topics on which reasonable people disagree that I don't *understand* both sides of the issue. I may not agree, but I understand.)
..........So, do you understand why I thought the redneck joke was funny?
........And, really, I wanted my post to cover situations in which people (maybe unreasonable people) want to be understood, in a quite specific way. That is, I can understand your reaction to jokes that negatively target socially disadvantaged groups--in a global way, I can understand it, and I am offended by blatantly racist and sexist humor. However, the devil is in the details. The couple arguing about sex or money (two common topics) aren't likely to find peace if each one first needs to understand the other's point of view.
Or, maybe that's just my bizarre way of thinking about things. In my household, there is a rule that dogs don't get people food (it's always been a rule of mine) unless it's mixed in with their dinner of dog food. I have my reasons for the rule, several good ones, IMO. My niece (who stayed with me a while) has a completely different opinion about dogs and people food. I suppose I understand her reasons (they are complete sentences, comprehensible), I just think they're wrong. So, I can fully accept that she believes that, but I don't really "understand" how she can come to that conclusion given all the data to the contrary. In a way, I guess I read into what you were saying that you wanted more than people to comprehend the sentences you were saying, but to "understand" your conclusions, in spite of the fact that they differ from the other's conclusions.
Shar
P.S. What the heck are you doing up so late!?
Posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 4:14:20
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 17:11:00
>I was simply pointing out that ALL jokes make fun of someone or something.
>whether he understood that that joke would be poking fun at someone..
Nikki, that's what I was trying to say, too, in a previous post. All jokes have a target, and, like you, I can't think of one that doesn't.
Shar
Posted by Tabitha on February 2, 2003, at 4:29:31
In reply to More semantics stuff, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 3:34:50
'zactly, Shar, I wish we could all make accepting each other's feelings and reactions a goal here. I'm even more optimistic though, I think it's also possible to understand how someone feels, if they fill in a little background about how they interpret a situation, and some of their personal history that contributes to their reaction.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 19:42:11
Lou,
please try and give examples of a joke that DO NOT make fun of someone..
But, is it OK to make fun of people you deem to be able to handle it?? Such as Psychiatrists in your previous post??
Is this a case of double standards?? Where by it is ok to joke about those you think its ok to joke about, but not those who who you decide it is not OK to joke about.
Nikki
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:59:01
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by dreamerz on February 1, 2003, at 18:35:42
My point in saying about my area of where I live, is that it is deemed acceptable for them to bar me from a shop for being a white western women, and for them to push and abuse me in the street, as in this country, they are a minority. Could you imagine the fuss if I opened a shop that wouldn't allow muslims in it??
A group of muslim women (I presume they are muslim by their Burkas) meet each morning on the corner of my street. I say "excuse me" so I can get past as they block my way. They refuse to move, and look at me with utter contempt. This means actually having to cross the street to get past them (they collect up against a barrier across the road, so I can;t just walk round them).
In my corner shop, I have been pushed out of the queue by them, and told I should find a shop that deals with "my kind".
The shop next door to that (that ahs a wodnerful cheese selection, which I why I would like to shop there), I have actually been asked to leave the shop by one of the workers, as my presence was causing upset!!! Now, I'm not one for skimpy clothes.. I would have been wearing trousers and long sleeved top at the very least.Why should this be acceptable?? I love living in a multi cultural area, if only for the great variety of foods I can buy.. (there are other reasons of course).
If I complained about this, I would be classed as a racist. Thats what really annoys me.
Nikki
Posted by Phil on February 2, 2003, at 7:27:50
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » dreamerz, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:59:01
This is an incredible reaction when you take into account that Jeff Foxworthy has made millions off of redneck jokes.
I know rednecks..virtually all of them would have your joke on their refrigerator door.Thank you,
Phil
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
The question at hand here is about the posting of "ethnic" jokes as a response to the post about "rednecks".
If we look at the following book title,[...The French Chef, by Sue Flay], there is humor in the title to some, [not ] because of [making fun of a person's {ethnicicity} or because the person belongs to a class of people or race or religion or national origin or handicap or sexual orientation etc...The person, Sue Flay, is [not] being ridiculed for being what they are, such as a person that has been labeled a "redneck". If we look at the following we could also see that a person is not being ridiculed for [being what they are].
One person asks another, "Why did the chicken cross the road, roll in a mud puddle, then cross the road again?"
The other person answers, "Because the chicken was a {dirty double- crosser.}
Now some people could think that was funny. And I have laughed at it myself. But the joke does not belittle people, or demean people or make fun of a peoples. I am not against telling a joke here. What I am against is the demeaning of a peoples by the venue of "joking" which is referred to as "ethnic" jokes. There is a differentiating body of factors that do make some jokes acceptable and some not. It is my beliefe that the overiding criteria to deem unacceptability is ;[Does it use language or expressions, innapropriatly toward a class or race of people, etc.., or expressions that demean a particular class of people?]. Dr bob just flagged the [...pizza ...olive...] post, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. I agree with him because it used an expression involving a class of people,inappropreatly, in this case by race.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 8:19:11
In reply to Lou's reply to NikkiT2's post » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
So correct me if I;m wrong...
You say it is NOT OK to make jokes based on someones ethnicity.
What about jokes based on someones sex??
Or sexual orientation??
Or religion?
Or occupation??
Or hair colour??
Or body shape??
Or driving ability??
The list is endless ( and please, this is a rhetorical question, no need to answer each point)
I am NOT saying any of this is right or wrong. What I am saying, is (and I will re-word this now), that any joke that contains a reference to a human, in any shape or form, is making fun of that person. Jokes about blonde women make fun of blonde women. Jokes about mother in laws make fun of mother in laws. Jokes about fat people make fun of fat people.
I do not believe that Oddipuss has never, ever, in his/her life, made a joke about someone in this way.If you can honestly, hand on heart, say you have NEVER told a joke about a human, in any form, you are a much better person than 99.999999% of the population of the world.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 8:22:25
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
You wrote about [...standards...]in referrence to acceptability or non-acceptability for posting humor here. If I was to make a page for the social board that addressed that , I would list the following criteria for OK or not OK:
The following are [not] OK:
A) Posts that use expressions of race or religion or nationl origin or sexual preferrence or handicap or gender etc. in an inappropriate manner.
B) Posts that demean, or ridicule a class or race etc.etc... of peoples.
C) other good or just causes to deem the post not[OK]
The following would be OK:
D)Posts that do not ridicule or demean peoples because of their ethnicisity or race, etc... even though the peoples may be mentioned.
When another poster here in the past wrote that W.C. Fields was asked, "Do you like children?" and his reply was, "It depends how they are cooked.". This is a good "test" example. The post ,IMHO, does not ridicule "children", even though "children" are used in the post.
But OTOH, if W.C. Fields was asked that question while he was visiting the ward in the Shriner's Burns Institute for children here in Cincinnati, then his reply would been "inappropriate".
Lou
Posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 8:41:00
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » NikkiT2, posted by shar on February 2, 2003, at 4:14:20
I think that there isnt a soul among us that hasnt told what we considered in our social circles what we considered a very benign joke of some kind that might just happen to offend someone.(look at all the blonde jokes, the Pollock jokes or the Catholics priest jokes floating around...)
I thnk that being sensative to others is only part of solution. Knowing your audience and not taking everything so seriously and personally would probably help.
I have felt the rage and anger from some of the posters here over the past months. I cant help but think that someone,somewhere in their past has deeply hurt that person and some how they feel save to unleash those misdirected words at people who are just trying to be social and occasionally blow off a little too much.
But it is that same safety is shared by others that feel they can come here relax, joke about topics that we all see everyday and if we were truly honest, would be sometimes smiling inside ourselves.Perhaps if we all,myself included, 'lightened up' a little and tried to keep the really unkind comments to a minimum or to be shared in private, we could refocus on what I feel this board is all about....the lighter side of support groups/website that allow the posters to occasionally blow with control..in other words.. WITH DISCERTION.
Any major put down is cruel but knowing your audience and not being too sensative would probably help us all.. myself included.
syringachalet
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 8:47:53
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 2, 2003, at 5:50:47
NikkiT2,
Another critera for acceptability or not is to examine the post in the context of a mental-health forum.
There was just a post here that came from a book that addressed this and I think that it is great in describing this situation. But that was describing a different setting. Here, we are in a mental-health setting, each seeking "support" and education about our afflictions. So IMHO, the rules could be different here for posting the posts in question.
Someone posted here that these type of posts in question that involve peoples could be posted on their refridgerator. And that would be up to the individual [outside] of this forum. But would it be appropriate here on this forum? I do not think so, for ridicule and making fun of a class of peoples can be detrimental to the mental health of those peoples and ,possibly, others also.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on February 2, 2003, at 8:52:27
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes, posted by syringachalet on February 2, 2003, at 8:41:00
And thank you if you think I am overly sensitive. If that were the biggest problem the world faced, that people were overly concerned about hurting others, I can't imagine what a terrific world this would be.
On this thread there has been a tremendous negative reaction towards "sensitivity", as if that is a perfectly good characteristic to find unacceptable. I don't go around pointing out the characteristics of other people on this board, perhaps I'm just too "sensitive".
Oddipus, you were right. You were being put down, and I don't blame you if you leave. I think I'll take a break myself.
Dinah
Posted by bluedog on February 2, 2003, at 8:58:48
In reply to Lou's reply to NikkiT2's post » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 2, 2003, at 7:55:04
I don't however have anything useful to add but I was feeling left out so I decided to to add my name to this thread too. :) :). Plus the thread seems to have become a little tame lately. Nothing like a good discussion to get the interest level up!
That's all this thread really is....isn't it? A REALLY good discussion!!!! I definitely can't make out anything about this thread that's particularly offensive....just a good debate between old friends really :) :).
I am Australian however so feel free to make lots of jokes at my expense. I promise I won't be offended as long as you don't hurt my feelings.
Lou, as an animal lover I was mortified at your chicken joke. I think chickens have suffered enough in their little cages laying eggs without having to be the butt of cruel jokes as well [Just Kidding :) :) ]
Phil, I was wondering when you were going to add your usual pearls of wisdom to the thread. How do you get away with the things you say without offending people. Please teach me:)
Ahh it's good to see my name up there with everyone elses!!!
Cheers everyone
bluedog
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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