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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 10:08:39
After a turbulent therapy session yesterday, things just kept getting worse.
My therapist reminded me that I had spoken to my father about the fact that I was stretched as thin as I could stretch, and that they were going to have to hire people to do things they used to rely on me to do - like mowing the lawn or helping with the major cleaning or taking the occasional cab. I'd help them with the hiring, and the paying if they needed it, but I was a bit past my limit right now with being a mom, wife, and worker. Everything is behind now and I just can't take any more on.
My father took it well and agreed (although he thinks all they need help with is the lawn). My mother told me last night that she is going to do the lawn herself. Of course she isn't, she can't. She hasn't even walked into the back yard for years. I interpreted her remark as "I'm going to make this difficult for you" or even at my most generous as "I'm going to fight every step of the way for my independence and I hate asking help of outsiders." This is the same woman who waited for hours at the repair shop because they couldn't locate me to bring her home. My husband ended up getting home before I did, and picking her up. I told her that sometimes she's just got to take a cab and she responded that she doesn't take cabs. That's what family is for.
I can't do for them what she wants me to do, it is beyond my capabilities. But I am beginning to face how difficult they're going to make life for me anyway, even if I don't (because I can't) give in.
So last night I woke up with such strong urges for self harm that I woke up my husband and asked him to tie my hands. He just got angry, and I dropped it and instead did creative visualization that my hands were anchored to the bed and couldn't take my bottle of klonopin, or cut, or drive the car to run away from home.
I dread the middle of the night sometimes. It's the worst time for these things. The time when I can't distract myself with other things. Is it really so bad to have my hands tied before I go to bed? Is there another way to physically restrain myself so that these urges don't torment me in the middle of the night? I know it all seems rather extreme, but I am concerned what will happen to me as the pressure increases. The middle of the night is a vulnerable time for impulsive actions. I don't want to be hospitalized. That seems extreme. But I would like the safety of not having to fight the urges.
Posted by Phil on January 11, 2003, at 11:55:42
In reply to Speaking of sudden downturns, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 10:08:39
Dinah, This is one of lifes really heart-wrenching times and you have a ton of company. Not that that helps much.
This is way easier said than done but you have to do it anyway..You can't live their pain and you can't feel guilty. All you are doing is making you suffer too.
They are frustrated with their diminishing abilities and have to realize that you aren't responsible for their happiness. Trying to guilt you kids is almost a requirement of aging.One day we may be 75. If I'm nearing the end, I hope I can offer unselfishness and hope to others and also realize that I may have to understand even if I don't think I can.
If my life is a wasteland of failure, then right before I go, I hope I can pinch the nurses butt as my last act-no matter how big he is. : )
When my mom was dying, I was too. There are a few incredibly painful memories of that time. I did quickly learn to think of the positives and not dwell on something even God couldn't change.
faith...God's right there with you and not even mom and dad come before God. He won't let you down.
Posted by Ginjoint on January 11, 2003, at 13:12:17
In reply to Speaking of sudden downturns, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 10:08:39
Hey Dinah...
What a rotten, lousy, craptacular night. But you handled it so well with the visualization idea! In the quiet of all the darkness, you pulled it together and stayed on top of it. As a cutter and an insomniac, I have an idea of just how much will power that took. I'm glad that this morning you didn't have to look at cuts on yourself, and I hope you are too.
In regards to tying your hands...I think your husband's anger was a manifestation of being just plain unnerved. The idea of tying his wife's hands might have been a bit too severe -- you know, I think that sometimes what seems O.K. to us to get us through the really bad times probably strikes the "normals" ;) as somewhat bizarre. You and I know that having your hands tied would have made you feel comforted and safe and snug, but of course the image of tied hands can bring up very different emotions in someone who's not where you're at. You're aware of this, obviously, but that doesn't help you get through the night.
One thing I have done that helps is to roll myself in a blanket. TIGHTLY. Yeah, it sounds funny, but feeling that snugness all over my body, with my hands pressed against myself, makes me feel like I'm being held and even restrained (not harshly, not in a panicked way, but firmly), which in turn helps me feel safer. Your hands don't have to be at your sides -- they can be mushed against your chest or wrapped around your waist or whatever. I like my left hand in front of my left shoulder and right against right. I know this sounds odd, but maybe it can help soothe you during the really nasty times. You already have enough to deal with -- you don't need to look at scars on your body too.
One other thing...it makes me very angry how your parents are pulling these passive aggressive moves with you. They are taking advantage of your obviously very generous nature, and it ticks me off! Grrrrrr! But I know that I already wrote about them in response to another post of yours a while back, so I'll shut up about it. Please continue to have the strength to stick to your guns with them, Dinah. Your well-being matters way more than any skewed ideas of pride that they may have...I don't know you, but I do care about you.
Ginjoint
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 14:59:19
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Dinah, posted by Phil on January 11, 2003, at 11:55:42
> Trying to guilt you kids is almost a requirement of aging.
I think I'm really going to try to remember this if I reach a venerable age, and make sure that my son is clear that I am my own responsibility and his responsibility is to his own kids. Maybe I'll write an essay to myself at seventy.
I know part of the problem is that the umbilical cord was cut so poorly and so late. (Ask my husband.) It's hard to know where one of us leaves off and the other begins. My brother has it worse than I do, though. I shouldn't complain. They open his mail!!
So you're going to be one of those elderly patients that nurses back away from, eh? I can see it now. :)
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 15:11:59
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Dinah, posted by Ginjoint on January 11, 2003, at 13:12:17
Thanks Ginjoint, I have actually used the mummy maneuver, and it does help sometimes. I don't know how many more nights like last night I can take though. Maybe it was a one time shot. My therapist is no help at all, his idea is hospitalization which seems a bit extreme. I don't want to scare my husband but if I have the same problem tonight, maybe I can flip tape around my wrists myself.
I'm pretty angry with my mom right now, myself. And whenever i get angry with others, I get urges to hurt myself. I must be pretty angry. :)
Posted by Ginjoint on January 11, 2003, at 16:05:56
In reply to Speaking of sudden downturns, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 10:08:39
Umm, Dinah, if you feel unsafe again tonight, how about if your husband curls up behind you ("spoons" you, *smirk*), and holds your hands or wrists until you fall asleep? He might find this a lot less daunting than tying your hands...and after all, night time is the right time to be with the one you love. :) Dinah, I do hope he realizes that you need a little extra help right now.
Ginjoint
Posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 16:25:13
In reply to Speaking of sudden downturns, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 10:08:39
Dinah,
How enraging, is all I can say.
Some thoughts:
1. Try to remember that your rage is really about your parents crazy-making behavior, and should not be directed toward yourself. Not that I'm advocating actually lashing out at them, just that you frame it that way in your mind.
2. Remind yourself that your parents are making choices all on their own--you are not forcing them to go lacking. Yes, in a way, your mom is partly right--that is what family is for. But since it is not humanly possible for family to be in two places at one time, etc. then, sometimes a cab (or other self-help action) is necessary. The point being for you: Remember that your mom's choice not to take a cab is exactly that--HER CHOICE. A stupid choice at that. Ideally, yes,, she might have had a ride but given the situation, she chose to wait even though you were not availbe when she could have opted for a cab and did not. HER CHOICE. HER action, not yours. If it was inconvenient to wait, or uncomfortable, it isn't your fault, Dinah. She had a choice.
3. I think you and your husband (and I know your brother has shipped out to service, are there any other sibs?) should consult with a professional who helps people with issues of care of elderly parents--maybe they can help you develop strategies for dealing with your parents and preserving your own selves, lives, sanity. You know, to help you get clear in your own minds what you can and cannot offer, and how to communicate that to your parents and be able to offer what you can but not feel guilty what you can't, and how to deal with their complaints, etc.
4. When you are bursting with rage like last night, is there a fast acting anxiolytic that help calm you down? Does the klonopin not work then?
5. I think it could help to make a list of other calming strategies and keep it by your bed to remind you if you have a fit of anxiety/rage at night.
Hang in there--we care.
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 16:48:35
In reply to Wait, another idea.... » Dinah, posted by Ginjoint on January 11, 2003, at 16:05:56
I love that idea, Ginjoint!!! It should work as well as the other. Especially since my husband is a light sleeper. I would never hurt myself when someone was awake and around. I'll talk to him tonight, gingerly, as he gets upset sometimes that I feel bad and he can't do much to help.
Thanks for the suggestion!!!
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 16:55:34
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Dinah, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 16:25:13
Thanks Noa, those are good suggestions. I had been weighing the idea of dragging my family along to my therapist, but your idea of finding someone who specializes in these matters is far better.
My parents are nuts, maybe all parents are, but mine definitely. Part of the reason my mom doesn't want help is that she's a hoarder and is afraid of being turned in to the health authorities (which isn't unlikely). My poor brother had to sleep on the sofa in the living room, one of the two rooms that are almost normal. And my dad keeps yelling that he hates my mom and wants to kill her. My mom even said he said something similar to my brother with respect to him being shipped out. He hasn't a violent bone in his body, thank heavens, and his outbursts are anger at being confined to the wheelchair and dependent on those two people. But it makes it impossible to be around him for long.
They need help, lots of it, but of course deny it. Sigh. I would consider it a huge victory to get them to hire someone to take care of their really huge yard.
Posted by rayww on January 11, 2003, at 17:41:34
In reply to Speaking of sudden downturns, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 10:08:39
I shy away from social. Why? duhhh - - I dunno.
Anyway, here I am with an attempt to be normal-social, rather than try to reach people through spiritual. (let's see, physical, mental, spiritual, social) Yes, this is social. (See how weird I am when I make an attempt?) O.K. (or is it okay) Relax!
I don't even know if I can connect to people socially without seeing them, or being there. It seems the only real connection over the Internet is spiritual because that's the in between medium (oops wrong word).
So, if my "social" response ends up spiritual again, you'll just have to try to understand this is me, and I am socially handicapped, or I should say, I perceive myself as such.
Dinah, some people are born to be angels. Every family needs at least one. In my family of 10 I have a few. You parents have you. The angel is the person who is the glue that holds the family together. Or the person who maintains unity in the organization. If you qualify as angel, your employeer is God and He will sustain you. Sorry Dinah, I just happen to think you are the ministering angel of this board. God will sustain you. But there are a couple of little things that help. 1/ hold your husband in the night and pretend he is the connection between you and God. Then draw (H)his strength and warmth into you 2/keep a scripture tape or CD right beside your bed that you can play softly so only you can hear, and then strain to hear it. The words of god will rest you. 3/keep an open communication line during the day with God. You don't have to kneel to chat with him. and it's not always one sided. When you feel least like chatting, is when you need to the most. 4/drink a glass of hot milk before going to bed 5/ and if your husband is part of the problem, excuse yourself to sleep in another room. Sometimes you just have to sleep alone to get a good night's rest. you know, snoring, snorking, sleep aptnia, all those "s" words.
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 22:00:31
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Dinah, posted by rayww on January 11, 2003, at 17:41:34
Hi Ray,
Good to see you Social Babbling. Don't worry about feeling awkward, we all do.
Ten in your family? Is that ten kids? Or nine siblings?
Teetotaling me had a drink of alchohol tonight, and I'm hoping that that coupled with the klonopin will keep the night monsters at bay. And I'm going to have my husband lock up the meds.
I'll make it through somehow.
Thanks for your kind words.
Dinah
Posted by rayww on January 12, 2003, at 1:52:40
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » rayww, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 22:00:31
> Hi Ray,
>
> Good to see you Social Babbling. Don't worry about feeling awkward, we all do.oh good, that's comforting.
>
> Ten in your family? Is that ten kids? Or nine siblings? Don't probe or I'll say too much and regret it, because I am actually very "proud" of my accomplishment of bearing 8 when born without a vag.
>
> Teetotaling me had a drink of alchohol tonight, and I'm hoping that that coupled with the klonopin will keep the night monsters at bay. And I'm going to have my husband lock up the meds.and I had some Yoshidas and echinesea, (just noticed they both have alcohol in them and I'm freaking out - well disappointed)
>
> I'll make it through somehow.I know you will. I can tell you're one of the tough ones.
>
> Thanks for your kind words.You deserve far more than kind words.
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2003, at 3:09:53
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Dinah, posted by rayww on January 12, 2003, at 1:52:40
Wow! Eight?! I'd be proud too. And very very tired. :)
Don't worry about the alchohol in the herbs. I'm sure it doesn't count against the word of wisdom if you weren't aware it contained alchohol. But what are Yoshidas?
Posted by kath on January 12, 2003, at 14:37:15
In reply to Speaking of sudden downturns, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 10:08:39
Dinah - I hate it when people who cry out for help receive anger instead. I guess it's important to remember that anger is like the part of the iceburg that we can see above the water....the underneath part of the iceburg is the actual emotion(s) that result in anger. I'm so sorry your husband replied with anger. I suspect that under the anger was fear for you; frustration that this stuff is happening in your lives right now; etc, etc. The "iceburg concept" helps me a LOT when I encounter anger.
As to your situation with your parents...I am so pleased to hear that you are setting healthy boundaries for yourself. Sounds like your Mom is in a power-struggle type reaction...."I don't take cabs". Stick to your guns, Dinah. That's very important.
It's great you have a therapist to talk with about these things.
Isn't it amazing that when we make moves to "change the dance-steps" in whatever relationship, quite often the other 'dancer' objects big-time to the thought of the steps changing!
Best of luck. Kath
> After a turbulent therapy session yesterday, things just kept getting worse.
>
> My therapist reminded me that I had spoken to my father about the fact that I was stretched as thin as I could stretch, and that they were going to have to hire people to do things they used to rely on me to do - like mowing the lawn or helping with the major cleaning or taking the occasional cab. I'd help them with the hiring, and the paying if they needed it, but I was a bit past my limit right now with being a mom, wife, and worker. Everything is behind now and I just can't take any more on.
>
> My father took it well and agreed (although he thinks all they need help with is the lawn). My mother told me last night that she is going to do the lawn herself. Of course she isn't, she can't. She hasn't even walked into the back yard for years. I interpreted her remark as "I'm going to make this difficult for you" or even at my most generous as "I'm going to fight every step of the way for my independence and I hate asking help of outsiders." This is the same woman who waited for hours at the repair shop because they couldn't locate me to bring her home. My husband ended up getting home before I did, and picking her up. I told her that sometimes she's just got to take a cab and she responded that she doesn't take cabs. That's what family is for.
>
> I can't do for them what she wants me to do, it is beyond my capabilities. But I am beginning to face how difficult they're going to make life for me anyway, even if I don't (because I can't) give in.
>
> So last night I woke up with such strong urges for self harm that I woke up my husband and asked him to tie my hands. He just got angry, and I dropped it and instead did creative visualization that my hands were anchored to the bed and couldn't take my bottle of klonopin, or cut, or drive the car to run away from home.
>
> I dread the middle of the night sometimes. It's the worst time for these things. The time when I can't distract myself with other things. Is it really so bad to have my hands tied before I go to bed? Is there another way to physically restrain myself so that these urges don't torment me in the middle of the night? I know it all seems rather extreme, but I am concerned what will happen to me as the pressure increases. The middle of the night is a vulnerable time for impulsive actions. I don't want to be hospitalized. That seems extreme. But I would like the safety of not having to fight the urges.
Posted by kath on January 12, 2003, at 14:42:46
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Dinah, posted by Ginjoint on January 11, 2003, at 13:12:17
I knew there was something else I wanted to mention.
During the months & months when my teenage son's behaviour (street-drug-induced) was making my life Hell, I frequently phoned a local "help-line". It helped me keep sane. It was open all night, which was when I really needed it. I live in Canada; don't know where you live, but here, I'd call the Mental Health Association...or public health dept...or even the local hospital. If there's a number that you can phone in the night that might help.
hugs, Kath
Posted by kath on January 12, 2003, at 14:49:08
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Ginjoint, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2003, at 15:11:59
Your mention of your anger at your Mom sparked this idea.
Once I was working on anger at my Dad (who was already dead). I wrote a very long letter to him; all kinds of things came out - some stuff that I didn't even know that I felt! I was in tears some of the time, but just kept on writing. After, I put it in an envelope, sealed it, wrote his first name on it & took it to the mailbox. Do you know that even though he wasn't even alive & only his first name was on the envelope, it was REALLY hard to "mail" it!
I, personally, think that it might do you a lot of good to write a letter to your mom...just as if you were going to actually mail it....while knowing that you aren't, so that you won't censor yourself. The other thing, would be to go somewhere alone - like a forest, or somewhere & choose a tree to be her & talk, yell at her; whatever.
hugs, Kath
> Thanks Ginjoint, I have actually used the mummy maneuver, and it does help sometimes. I don't know how many more nights like last night I can take though. Maybe it was a one time shot. My therapist is no help at all, his idea is hospitalization which seems a bit extreme. I don't want to scare my husband but if I have the same problem tonight, maybe I can flip tape around my wrists myself.
>
> I'm pretty angry with my mom right now, myself. And whenever i get angry with others, I get urges to hurt myself. I must be pretty angry. :)
>
Posted by kath on January 12, 2003, at 14:51:15
In reply to Wait, another idea.... » Dinah, posted by Ginjoint on January 11, 2003, at 16:05:56
Wish MY husband would do that!!!!!!!! He hates to be touched when he's felling asleep OR sleeping! UGH. Pretty hard for me, who LOVES touching, cuddling, etc. He's great & I love him, but I hate THAT about him.
:-((((( Kath
> Umm, Dinah, if you feel unsafe again tonight, how about if your husband curls up behind you ("spoons" you, *smirk*), and holds your hands or wrists until you fall asleep? He might find this a lot less daunting than tying your hands...and after all, night time is the right time to be with the one you love. :) Dinah, I do hope he realizes that you need a little extra help right now.
>
> Ginjoint
Posted by kath on January 12, 2003, at 14:53:34
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » Dinah, posted by Noa on January 11, 2003, at 16:25:13
Noa - as usual - such wisdom. hugs, Kath
> Dinah,
>
> How enraging, is all I can say.
>
> Some thoughts:
>
> 1. Try to remember that your rage is really about your parents crazy-making behavior, and should not be directed toward yourself. Not that I'm advocating actually lashing out at them, just that you frame it that way in your mind.
>
> 2. Remind yourself that your parents are making choices all on their own--you are not forcing them to go lacking. Yes, in a way, your mom is partly right--that is what family is for. But since it is not humanly possible for family to be in two places at one time, etc. then, sometimes a cab (or other self-help action) is necessary. The point being for you: Remember that your mom's choice not to take a cab is exactly that--HER CHOICE. A stupid choice at that. Ideally, yes,, she might have had a ride but given the situation, she chose to wait even though you were not availbe when she could have opted for a cab and did not. HER CHOICE. HER action, not yours. If it was inconvenient to wait, or uncomfortable, it isn't your fault, Dinah. She had a choice.
>
> 3. I think you and your husband (and I know your brother has shipped out to service, are there any other sibs?) should consult with a professional who helps people with issues of care of elderly parents--maybe they can help you develop strategies for dealing with your parents and preserving your own selves, lives, sanity. You know, to help you get clear in your own minds what you can and cannot offer, and how to communicate that to your parents and be able to offer what you can but not feel guilty what you can't, and how to deal with their complaints, etc.
>
> 4. When you are bursting with rage like last night, is there a fast acting anxiolytic that help calm you down? Does the klonopin not work then?
>
> 5. I think it could help to make a list of other calming strategies and keep it by your bed to remind you if you have a fit of anxiety/rage at night.
>
> Hang in there--we care.
Posted by rayww on January 12, 2003, at 16:27:07
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns » rayww, posted by Dinah on January 12, 2003, at 3:09:53
But what are Yoshidas?
Yoshida's is the best stir-fry sauce ever.
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2003, at 17:55:03
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturnsDinah PS2, posted by kath on January 12, 2003, at 14:49:08
You had a lot of good ideas there. Next time I'm really in touch with my anger at my mom, I'll try the letter writing. Most of the time the anger is far more detached.
I had a long talk with my husband last night when I asked him to hold my Klonopin. Each time he raised his voice I pointed out what he was doing, and he really did try to communicate. It is, of course, fear. But it really isn't helpful. I always just decide I should keep things from him.
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2003, at 17:55:30
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturns, posted by rayww on January 12, 2003, at 16:27:07
Posted by rayww on January 12, 2003, at 18:41:30
In reply to Re: Speaking of sudden downturnsDinah PS2, posted by kath on January 12, 2003, at 14:49:08
The other thing, would be to go somewhere alone - like a forest, or somewhere & choose a tree to be her & talk, yell at her; whatever.
>
> hugs, Kath
>
Kath, the letter is such a good idea, and so is the forest. Have you ever actually hugged a tree the size your dad, as though it was your dad? Have you ever driven out into nature until you found a secluded slough and sat beside a big rock until the music of the ducks and mud hens brought you peace, then quacked like a duck and watched them respond to you? Hugged the rock, thanked nature for being there for you when no one else was? Heres another one, written a dialogue to POES (Person Offering Emotional Support)where you ask a question, or state a concern, and then write your imagined response from POES. No one I have ever described this to has actually understood it, but it honestly works, because deep inside, once we allow them to surface, are the real answers. POES can help them surface. Does anyone on this forum understand this? If so, "YES" I am in the right place!!! and so are you :-)
Posted by kath on January 15, 2003, at 18:32:22
In reply to tree, rock, ducks, POES » kath, posted by rayww on January 12, 2003, at 18:41:30
I am VERY interesting in the POES idea & will try it for sure.
The things you mention sound wonderful. Nature is a wonderful healer. I've hugged a tree, but guess what? - I love the idea of hugging the tree with a person in mind. My Dad is dead & I miss him muchly - what a great idea!
You sound really nifty!!!!!!!
:-) Kath
> The other thing, would be to go somewhere alone - like a forest, or somewhere & choose a tree to be her & talk, yell at her; whatever.
> >
> > hugs, Kath
> >
> Kath, the letter is such a good idea, and so is the forest. Have you ever actually hugged a tree the size your dad, as though it was your dad? Have you ever driven out into nature until you found a secluded slough and sat beside a big rock until the music of the ducks and mud hens brought you peace, then quacked like a duck and watched them respond to you? Hugged the rock, thanked nature for being there for you when no one else was? Heres another one, written a dialogue to POES (Person Offering Emotional Support)where you ask a question, or state a concern, and then write your imagined response from POES. No one I have ever described this to has actually understood it, but it honestly works, because deep inside, once we allow them to surface, are the real answers. POES can help them surface. Does anyone on this forum understand this? If so, "YES" I am in the right place!!! and so are you :-)
This is the end of the thread.
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