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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Gracie2 on February 27, 2002, at 0:14:38
My last pdoc called me a "classic bipolar." I kind of got a kick out of that, even though it reminded me of an old El Camino with serious engine problems and the flatbed loaded with psychiatric baggage. It also reminded me of Richard Jeni, who joked about entering a relationship where he hoped that his new girlfriend had a small, carry-on bag
of emotional problems, and then it turned out that his new love was toting around a Beverly-Hillbilly truck-load of mental problems.I myself have been in the Beverly-Hillbilly class.
It took some time before I was professionally classified with bipolar symptoms (and as we all know, bipolar is the politically correct term for manic depression). Since I've been taking anti-psychotic medication, I've pretty much turned into June Cleaver. Although I enjoy sleeping at night and functioning around strangers in the appropriate manner, a great part of my personality has been wiped out.I used to paint, to attend college art classes, to be creative, to be a person that others wanted to meet, to write long and interesting letters, to move furniture on a regular basis, to draw and try new things. All of that was gone, but I had enough presence of mind to miss the Old Me. I started skimping on my medication and struggling to find my old self.
I relapsed completely tonight. I bought my favorite red wine for the first time in months(Ca' del Solo, or Big House Red), sat down in front of my drawing pad and put on a Sheryl Crow CD (Sheryl is from here in Missouri, but she doesn't like to admit it.) I was drawing and listening to her songs, thinking about how I used to feel like she did before June Cleaver took over, and my hand started to shake.
"All I want to do is have a little fun before I die," says the man next to me...and I wonder if he's ever had fun in his life. We are drinking beer at noon on Tuesday in a bar that faces a giant car wash. The good people of the world are washing their cars...well, they're nothing like Billy and me. All I wanna do is have some fun; I got a feeling I'm not the only one...until the sun comes up over Santa Monica Boulevard. I like a good beer buzz early in the morning...a happy couple enters the bar dangerously close...otherwise the bar is ours, and the day and the night.
This song opens doors that I had shut long ago; big doors. Twenty years ago, I was slamming cherry shots with a combat engineer in Berlin; today I am excited when the newspaper arrives on time. I don't really want to get upset when the muffins burn, I don't want to be the person I am on this medication.
I would be interested to know how others feel by the change in their personality due to medication.
-Gracie
Posted by trouble on February 27, 2002, at 2:43:44
In reply to The bipolar artist, posted by Gracie2 on February 27, 2002, at 0:14:38
Hey Gracie,
Your post was very creative, you still got it in you girl. But yeah, what you describe is one of the main reason artists remain leery of psychiatry, and I think it's justified.
I'm scared it will happen to me, so I won't touch lithium or even depakote, since I've heard people say it drained them of their wonder and imagination. My pdoc understands the connection btwn creativity and mental illness, but I'm not sure he sees MY creativity worth salvaging, I'm not Van Gogh or Beaudelaire, but neither were they in their day. The point being is I have a gift and no one can say whether or not it is a great gift, so let us err on the side of caution. Of course he has a hard time taking all this seriously but f*ck him if he can't take a yoke.
It took me 7 years to agree to go on any mood stabilizer at all due to these fears, and am just now starting Gabitril. So far, so good, but the instant I start talking like other people is the instant I flush those babies. The big worry is that I'll turn into June Cleaver w/out noticing it, live the rest of my life like some conventional, pallid American producer/consumer and thereby deny the world the benefit of my creative potential ha. There are plenty of pdocs out there who'd consider that a successful treatment outcome.
It's hard. I notice that the older I get the more severe the hypomania gets, the more outlandish and self-defeating the behaviors are, and the harder it is to bounce back after the crash. What seems to work for me is this unrelenting indoctrination of my pdoc to take my concerns seriously, and he'd never admit to it but I think he does. It really helps to trust that your doctor will notice if you turn into a drone, and modify the treatment accordingly. Also, my guy gives me the tiniest doses possible, a drug trial can go on for 2 months 'til I peak. The downside there is that the disorder is in full flower during the trial, but it's a price I'm willing to pay in order to keep my medication intake as conservative as possible.
In essence, I think once you, yes you honor this part of yourself sufficiently you will protect it more savagely, if that means hashing it out w/ your doc, so be it. Let me know if this proves useful, I too am interested in how people handle this problem.
trouble
Posted by Lini on February 27, 2002, at 9:00:29
In reply to The bipolar artist, posted by Gracie2 on February 27, 2002, at 0:14:38
I wonder too about the personality price. While the base boards are clean and I have extra toothbrushes, I miss the "crazy girl" that drives around at 4 a.m. trying to escape the moon.
There is the me that gets poetic and dark alone on the kitchen floor with a bottle of Merlot, wishing I could just disapear and in love with the idea of investigators going through my things. Then there is the me at work, lip glossed and focused, thinking through business strategy and client needs, planning the perfect 401(k) plan and applying to grad school. I can't decide who I love more, who deserves to be the "me" that struggles through my life?
The one thing that keeps me reaching for the pills is I can't get it out of my mind that if I don't have my shit together, I will never be able to have children. Not that this is a prerequisite or anything, (just ask my parents) but it would be nice if my children never had to worry why mommy hadn't combed her hair in two weeks.
I don't know - I think I could contribute alot to the world, on my meds or off, they would just be two completely different ways of being alive. I guess the thing I have to decide between is what is the most important thing I want to contribute?
Posted by ST on February 28, 2002, at 3:37:28
In reply to Re: The bipolar artist, posted by trouble on February 27, 2002, at 2:43:44
Wow. These posts really hit home. I've been struggling with: "which part is my personality and which part is my 'illness?'" Which me is ME? medicated or not? I still don't know, but the important thing is that I'm getting "it" back again.
In 1994 I went on Depakote and pretty much ceased to be creative, witty and deeply emotional. I still got work as an actress, but of course in TV and film land, none of the acting work is too challenging anyway, so I got away with feeling like a robot. I hit a point where I just didn't care. Who cared if there was an audience in front of me expecting me to be funny or move them to the point of tears? One time I slept through a final callback for a part on a new TV show. Who cared. I was numb.
It finally ocurred to me that perhaps I was on too much of my mood stabilizer. I was a bit too....stabilized. These mood stabilizers are important. But they do put a "lid" on us, our feelings, our reactions, our ability to dream. So with my doctor's OK, I lowered my dosage. Then a year later I lowered it more. And more. And now, I'm on a dose that is quite minimal, but I feel like "me" - whatever that is - again. I have goals, energy to achieve them, a well of feeling and a mind that's quicker. I'll never be the laugh-riot-a-minute-maniac I once was and that's fine with. The other stuff that came with it was not worth it.
To anyone who is manic depressive, I suggest looking at how much mood stabilizer you're on.
And trouble: I respect your desire to stay away from a mood stabilizer. You're a brilliant writer. However, it is a fact that the older you get, the more frequent and more intense the highs and the crashes. I believe there is a middle ground for us, I really do. But it takes avoiding complacency and the frequent monitoring of ourselves. I think it takes simply not settling: for either the un-medicated chaos or the over-medicated void.
Sarah
Posted by ST on March 3, 2002, at 18:46:15
In reply to Re: The bipolar artist, posted by ST on February 28, 2002, at 3:37:28
Hearing how these meds affect creativity really interests me. Anyone else want to put 2 cents in?
Sarah
Posted by Zo on March 4, 2002, at 19:14:19
In reply to Any other bipolar artist types out there???, posted by ST on March 3, 2002, at 18:46:15
Um, yessss. And a recently medicated one, after twenty years of highs and lows. .. because my Bipolar II was hiding behind: Chronic Fatigue Illness/some toxic (pesticide) hits to the brain; behind Temporal Lobe which are so closely related to mania as to be nearly indistinguishable, except brief. . .really, like little moments from god. . .and which were also undiagnosed. Since childhood. *And* ADD. All three of which are Kindling disorders. So, I kindle. I also paint and write.
It wasn't until the addition of Lamictal to my many meds last fall, after a particular marked and driven period of agitated depression/mania, that I've had anything like normal life.
Having been, amongst all the confusion, a pretty damn genius writer who got "disovered" by a New York agent, and "discovered" by a New York publisher--but whose "manuscript" was a box full of scenes, so it never went anywhere. . .I'll just say, despite the fears, my talent, medicated, is intact. Actually, better for it, because I was always in a lot of fear that the next high would never come. My website's about to go up, my book is out with seven agents. . .it feels good to be integrated and capable, instead of at the mercy of my mood.
I don't think it's a question, anymore, of choosing between which self. I did. But this feels like a blending. It really does. And way less scary. The risks now are with my art.
Zo
Posted by ST on March 5, 2002, at 5:03:56
In reply to Re: Any other bipolar artist types out there???, posted by Zo on March 4, 2002, at 19:14:19
That's an encouraging post! Good to hear you're experiencing a "blending", and not an "either/or" situation. Good luck with all the great stuff that's going on in your life.
Sarah
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2002, at 17:15:28
In reply to Any other bipolar artist types out there???, posted by ST on March 3, 2002, at 18:46:15
[Posted by sue doe on March 5, 2002, at 11:07:41]
> > Hearing how these meds affect creativity really interests me. Anyone else want to put 2 cents in?
> >
> > Sarah
>
> ode to the riddlin' child
>
> Put me in a box will you?
> Lock the lid, I’m wild.
> Turn the light out. Make it dark.
> No this isn’t Noah’s ark.
>
> Crazy child. “Riddlin’” child.
> Kindertotenlieder child.
>
> Not to save, no just to rid,
> The world of any oddball kid.
> Drunk on words and drowned in lines.
> But, God knows, at least it rhymes.
>
> Crazy child. Riddlin’ child.
> Kindertotenlieder child.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2002, at 17:17:16
In reply to Re: on medicating bi-polar artists « sue doe, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2002, at 17:15:28
[Posted by beardedlady on March 5, 2002, at 11:24:09]
> My therapist told me, after my first visit to him, that I would sleep better if I got back to writing poetry. I used to be active in the poetry scene in my town--was poetry editor of a couple newspapers and mags. I had only written one poem in the three years since my daughter was born. So I started writing again, and voila! I slept! And I kept writing, and I kept sleeping. And then I started working on my other art projects, and I slept even better and better.
>
> I am still medicated, but it's one pill, and it's a low dose. But the point is that meds can't work alone. You have to be willing to nurture yourself--especially if you've been stifling creativity. My therapist said that artists who aren't creating art can make themselves ill. It's not a chicken/egg thing. Some folks would be ill anyway. But without making art, they get iller. (Yes, I said iller.)
>
> The first poem I wrote--the warm-up, I call it--is about panic:
>
>
> the panic
>
> starts in the chest—an off beat
> a flutter, a jump, heavy.
> the breath is all wrong,
> fast and short and used.
> hands sweat.
> throat closes.
> the swallow is elusive.
> legs, restless, tremble
> and muscles tic and twitch and spasm.
> you are crazy.
> you will die.
>
> and when it’s all over
> there’s the road hum
> the body writhing under still skin.
> your bones, pudding
> your pores, nerve ends
> your veins, empty.
>
> there is no ladder.
> no one can talk you down.
> so you can stay there—out there on that limb
> —out there on that ledge
> and worry about falling off.
>
> but if you jump
> you will have jumped.
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2002, at 17:17:59
In reply to Re: more poetry « beardedlady, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2002, at 17:17:16
[Posted by sue doe on March 5, 2002, at 11:28:16]
> great poem, bearded lady! Write some more!
> sue doe (nym)
Posted by ST on March 6, 2002, at 2:27:28
In reply to Re: more poetry « sue doe, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2002, at 17:17:59
nm
Posted by Katey on March 6, 2002, at 9:30:09
In reply to Re: Any other bipolar artist types out there???, posted by Zo on March 4, 2002, at 19:14:19
i think i fit the description, is this an employment agency? please....
Posted by Roo on March 6, 2002, at 10:05:27
In reply to Great poetry! Keep it comin'! (nm), posted by ST on March 6, 2002, at 2:27:28
I'm floating amongst the riff raff
in the looney-toon lagoon
like a lily livered lag a long
tight roping the line of a sad silly songIn a swamp that moans
I will soak my bones
My johnson swaying this way and that
My johnson nibbled by a snaggle toothed ratand I like it!
I like it!
I've come to rather like it!Why bother sneering at me
I burst my own bubble a long time ago
A long crime ago
A bottle of wine ago
A nickle and a dime ago
The time I lost my mind agoNow I sit and watch the slime flow
Like a dead dog on death row
Awaiting ressurection
Posted by colin wallace on March 6, 2002, at 13:44:26
In reply to Re: Great poetry! Keep it comin'!, posted by Roo on March 6, 2002, at 10:05:27
Boy, is this tempting.....!
Posted by Gracie2 on March 7, 2002, at 16:29:01
In reply to Re: Great poetry! Keep it comin'!, posted by Roo on March 6, 2002, at 10:05:27
Just back from a week at the psych ward, ya'll. I managed to lose my job while I was in there, I was too embarrassed to call them up and tell them where I was. It wasn't a very good job anyway.At least it gave me some insight. When I got home, I looked at the canvases I had painted and the murals I had done years ago and I thought girl, you are wasting a God-given talent and that's a sin in my book. Even if the psychiatric medication and my own wobbly state of mind will not allow me to focus long enough to complete some great work of art, I can surely start small and do something, even if I don't feel like it, and maybe that will lead to bigger things.
So I started painting little wooden boxes. I spend a lot of time on these things, sanding and painting and poring over crafts magazines for new ideas. At first I had to make myself do it, but now it has become a reason to get up in the morning. Because I am highly undisciplined, I had to make a schedule for myself; up at dawn (well maybe a little after dawn) - arts and crafts time for two hours - shower and dress - study my medical transcriptionist course - work on the house - watch TV and go through the want ads - cook dinner. I believe I am through as a radiographer - I've been in so much trouble - but the thought only brings relief. However, I don't seem to be suited for much else. Most of the ads ask for "friendly, energetic people". Snort. I wouldn't mind delivering things, but I would never pass the urine test required with all the (prescribed) drugs in my system.
Still, I am quietly proud of myself for having set up some kind of routine that includes a regular sleeping-and-waking time (before Seroquel, this was impossible), a time to study and a creative pursuit. My next goal is to get outside the house EVERY DAY even if it is just to walk the dog. Also, my hospital experience was so recent that I actually revel in my morning cup(s)
of Starbucks Espresso (nothing but decaff on the psych ward) and being able to shave my legs without someone watching me. You don't think about that stuff until it's taken away.Oh dear I got into "chat" mode. What I meant to say is that if medication has you "blocked" as an artist, it is still possible to take baby steps -
a small sketch of the tree outside your window, a few lines of writing. At this time I don't believe it will be possible for me obtain the feverish heights I experienced painting these huge, colorful canvases that simply poured from my brush when I was manic, and I do miss that...the focus, the intensity. However, since I am a so-called "rapid-cycler", I would crash and burn within a couple of weeks, sometimes days.It certainly is a trade-off. It certainly is.
-Gracie
Posted by ST on March 8, 2002, at 5:30:11
In reply to Baby Steps, posted by Gracie2 on March 7, 2002, at 16:29:01
Gracie,
I wondered where you went...
What you're doing is exactly what I feel most of us creative types need: a schedule of some sort. Good for you. You're right about baby steps. We can be creative in "small" ways. Even making a dinner can be a work of art for you.
During a time when my life was bereft of any creativity or beauty, a good friend (who, coincidentally is studying to be a licensed psychologist)suggested that I find other ways (besides performing) to be creative in the many areas of my life. This turned on a light switch for me, and almost everything became a creative endeavor. Once an artist, always an artist, even if we're not "producing".
And by the way, feel free to babble or "chat". I like it.
How has your husband responded to the hospital visit and all that has happened?
Sarah
Posted by trouble on March 9, 2002, at 2:20:46
In reply to Re: Baby Steps, posted by ST on March 8, 2002, at 5:30:11
Dear Gracie,
Thank you for your uplifting post and welcome home. Everything is still intact, if not more so, despite the dislocation and job loss. Sense of humor is the first thing I look for to get a capsulized take on mental health, and yours is truly aces. Snort away,
trouble
Posted by Gracie2 on March 9, 2002, at 12:08:53
In reply to Re: Baby Steps, posted by ST on March 8, 2002, at 5:30:11
Posted by Zo on March 9, 2002, at 23:32:50
In reply to Baby Steps, posted by Gracie2 on March 7, 2002, at 16:29:01
Gracie, I wouldn't worry about my talents being blocked if I were you. Just, yeah, some shape-shifting, with mood under control. . .but talent? Honey, that's your gift. And a gift doesn't reside only in Extremes.
Zo
>Most of the ads ask for "friendly, energetic people". Snort.
>
>being able to shave my legs without someone watching me. You don't think about that stuff until it's taken away.
Posted by LetsTalk on July 28, 2003, at 2:31:12
In reply to Re: on medicating bi-polar artists « sue doe, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2002, at 17:15:28
> [Posted by sue doe on March 5, 2002, at 11:07:41]
>
> > > Hearing how these meds affect creativity really interests me. Anyone else want to put 2 cents in?
> > >
> > > Sarah
> >
> > ode to the riddlin' child
> >
> > Put me in a box will you?
> > Lock the lid, I’m wild.
> > Turn the light out. Make it dark.
> > No this isn’t Noah’s ark.
> >
> > Crazy child. “Riddlin’” child.
> > Kindertotenlieder child.
> >
> > Not to save, no just to rid,
> > The world of any oddball kid.
> > Drunk on words and drowned in lines.
> > But, God knows, at least it rhymes.
> >
> > Crazy child. Riddlin’ child.
> > Kindertotenlieder child.In response to the above post, I have been diagnosed as bipolar for 10 years and never has riddlin been brought up...last five docs have tried to convince me to take lithium...now that seems backwards to me...would this be because on average we are on different sides of the stick or what?
Posted by ROO on July 28, 2003, at 10:17:24
In reply to The bipolar artist, posted by Gracie2 on February 27, 2002, at 0:14:38
> I would be interested to know how others feel
by the change in their personality due to
medication.
I have decided I don't like mood stabilizers for this
reason and I'm not going to take them. Of course I'm
lucky I have this luxery. I'm not classic bipolar. I'm
cyclothymic or bipolar 2 (supposedly--I'm not sure I even
agree with this). Mood stabilizers, for me, take away what
I love most in life--my emotions...my joy...my enthusiasm...
my artistic inspiration. To me, that's what makes life
worth living. I was flattened for a year on topamax...a
zombie...I had no soul...I almost killed myself it depressed
me so much. Off mood stabilizers...sometimes I get those
panicky agitated feelings and I feel like I'm going to crawl
out of my skin. I'm tempted to go back on the zombie meds...but
the agitation passes (sometimes it's a suicidal agitation)...and
I have joy again...inspiration...silliness...and I'm so glad I
didn't cave in to taking the medicine. I have just decided to make
that sacrifice...I'm not willing to give up my joy...and the things
that make me an artist. (I write, paint, play music...on mood stabilizers...
I'm too flattened to be inspired).I'm grateful that I have this option. I know that some people don't. I
don't get destructive during my agitated cycling...(meaning
I don't go on wild spending sprees, get promiscuous, or go to jail) it's just miserable and
I have to wait through it and convince myself it will pass and I don't
need to kill myself.
This is the end of the thread.
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