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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by kazoo on August 7, 2001, at 1:39:07
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted?, posted by dreamer on August 6, 2001, at 23:52:00
> Read that some doctors [was old web page]in Netherlands were helping to assist patients who were treatment resistant and severely depressed to die.
^^^^^^^^^^
And I'm sure those so-called "doctors" have been locked up and put away where they belong, away from the "severely depressed" who are too depressed to make a rational decision. Any doctor that does this sort of thing is contrary to all medical practices that promote LIFE over DEATH. That's the purpose of a doctor; i.e., to treat the living to stay ALIVE.If, however, the case may be one of a terminal "organic" disease, such as AIDs or CANCER, with pain too horrible to bear and with death imminent, then perhaps (and I said PERHAPS), there may be a need for this kind of euthanasia. But the Boolean I used is AND meaning both conditions must be true to validate the statement's merit.
> I often wished that my doc would end it all when in a certain state but surely this can't be true.
^^^^^^^
Will you PLEASE stop promoting this sort of thing! It's a downer and, quite frankly, I'm sick of hearing over and over again the "thrill" of seeking the ultimate reality as a means of escapism. It is not. It's a dead end (no pun intended) that does more damage to the LIVING who must, day-after-day, relive the tragedy inflicted upon them by one who is too SELFISH to consider an alternative, any alternative. I am not picking on you exclusively. Others have dwelled on this subject time and time again, and I'm sure the subject will come up, time and time again. This fascination with death says something about our JADED society/culture.Live LIFE while you have it, good or bad, it's better than the alternative, which is unknown.
I am not going to say anymore on this dreadful subject. It sickens me to do so.
kazoo
Posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 10:57:20
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted? » dreamer, posted by kazoo on August 7, 2001, at 1:39:07
kazoo & Dreamer,
> > Read that some doctors [was old web page]in Netherlands were helping to assist patients who were treatment resistant and severely depressed to die.
I have to say I am somewhere in the middle of this controversy. I do not support extending one's pain and suffering -- that is inhumane. However, I also do not support euthanasia until it is the last choice.
In the case of the terminally ill, yes, I do support euthanasia when the quality of life has reached zero. I have a close friend who is living in a hospice, dying of terminal cancer. He is keep pain-free, gets all the help with living he could ever want, has an internet connection & notebook computer, and is really enjoying his last weeks. He actually looks better now than he did before he entered the hospice. Yet, he says he is ready to die.
Ted
PS: btw, kazoo, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, ADHD, etc., _ARE_ *organic* diseases just like AIDS, cancer, diabetes, hypertension, etc.
Posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 11:00:26
In reply to Sadness over suicides, posted by Ted on August 6, 2001, at 16:49:05
Hi all,
Thanks for your comments. It just happened that my therapist appointment was monday afternoon, so I brought this up with her. Her response was that possibly I am afraid because I was in so close a position myself and because I might not have the control to avoid suicide in the future should my condition deteriorate.
Ted
Posted by lissa on August 7, 2001, at 11:30:31
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted? » kazoo, posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 10:57:20
> PS: btw, kazoo, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, ADHD, etc., _ARE_ *organic* diseases just like AIDS, cancer, diabetes, hypertension, etc.Sorry to interrupt, but I think these analogies between illnesses like depression and diseases like diabetes and cancer raise some interesting questions.
Just want to say that, I see where you're coming from (because such places as NIMH tend to liken depression to diabetes, etc.) -- but, I don't agree with these analogies.
Mental illnesses are *organic* diseases in that they involve the brain, but their causes are far less easy to get a handle on than any illness which is triggered by, say, your body's inability to regulate its insulin levels or prevent cells from multiplying.
While some biological predisposition to mental illness may exist, it seems like (and I'm no expert) mental illness does not manifest itself without stressors from the environment (and the way in which the mind deals with them ...). As such, it is very unlike cancer or diabetes. Also, as such, its character makes any arguments for euthanasia to end suffering (also, arguments favoring suicide in cases of refractory mental illness) far less compelling to me (but maybe those issues will be for a later time when I have more time to write out my reasoning in full.)
Just a thought ...
lissa
Posted by lissa on August 7, 2001, at 11:37:20
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone, posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 11:00:26
> Her response was that possibly I am afraid because I was in so close a position myself and because I might not have the control to avoid suicide in the future should my condition deteriorate.
Ted,
I find this response troubling. Why do you think you would ever lose control of your ability to chose life or death? Why would your therapist think that? Even if your life really goes downhill, you will still have control over that choice.
I hope I'm not being meddlesomely argumentative today ... just have strong opinions on this kind of stuff.
hope you are feeling all right.
I give you my best,
lissa
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 13:25:20
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted? » kazoo, posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 10:57:20
Most chronic illnesses have flares. And unfortunately they can be worse during the prime years of a person's life.
My father has schizophrenia. He became ill over twenty years ago. Over this period he had had suicidal thoughts. Now on a newer medication he is quite happy. He is an active grandparent and father.
And yes this is a severe illness.
Posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 13:29:34
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone » Ted, posted by lissa on August 7, 2001, at 11:37:20
lissa,
>I find this response troubling. Why do you
>think you would ever lose control of your
>ability to chose life or death?Because I was so close to suicide before I was hospitalized in 1999 with bipolar disorder.
> you will still have control over that choice.
Maybe, maybe not. I cannot predict the future.
>I hope I'm not being meddlesomely argumentative
>today ... just have strong opinions on this kind
>of stuff.I don't think so. I value your and everyone else's opinions. That is why I started the thread.
> hope you are feeling all right.
Yes, mostly, thanks.
Ted
Posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 13:35:54
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted? » Ted, posted by lissa on August 7, 2001, at 11:30:31
lissa,
> Mental illnesses are *organic* diseases in
>that they involve the brain, but their causes
>are far less easy to get a handle on than any
>illness which is triggered by, say, your body's
>inability to regulate its insulin levels or
>prevent cells from multiplying."your body's inability to regulate its insulin levels"
How is this different from "Your brain's inability to regulate its serotonin, dopamine, norepinepherine, and GABA levels?"
Our brain is an organ just like our liver or pancreas or heart. Each is specialized and each has unique diseases. It just so happens that less is known about the causes & treatments of the brain's diseases.
Now I guess I'm getting argumentative. Please no flames.
Ted
Posted by kid_A on August 7, 2001, at 13:47:25
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone, posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 11:00:26
a. on the veer off the path, i think i am going to side w/ lissa in her points, especially as concerns external stressors... i will go so far as to say that i think that these stressors can even be oblique ones that are built in to a good percentage of the population as a whole, things such as anomie, the term durkheim had coined to describe the effect on mental health as the large scale behavioural structure of a society breaks down... as the social mores for behaviour start to untangle and eventually erode away some of us may increasingly be in a state of anomie, not having a good understanding of how we relate to one another, of what our social responsibilities to one another may be...it seems long winded and technical, but i feel its almost inherent to depression to have a lack of understanding for the various relationships between people... i know i felt almost alien in the thick of my own depression...
b. on suicide, as some may have read, i had what i would call a near-death experience when i hydroplaned on a highway in atlanta... i could have been killed and i told my therapist that it certainly changed my feelings on suicide ideation, but that was a bit of a lie, i really dont have much feeling for it, i was more upset at myself, though that was really just from stress, after the fact i dont really have any emotion at all about it, i tell people i do, but i dont...
as a last point, on what ted has said, i think i understand what is meant as lack of control, i think that all suicides, unless commited in some sort of altered state of conciousness are the end result of a lack of control, the control mechanism is the will to live, the will to survive, to somehow, whatever way, make it through the night to the next day, the lack of control is the loosening of that grip on life...
i think you could even apply this broadly to suicide as a result of psychosis...
Posted by kid_A on August 7, 2001, at 14:17:46
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted? » lissa, posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 13:35:54
> Our brain is an organ just like our liver or pancreas or heart. Each is specialized and each has unique diseases. It just so happens that less is known about the causes & treatments of the brain's diseases.
Not to argue someone elses point, but I think that there is a big difference between what you would consider to be a 'disease' per se, and a 'condition' or mental state. There are diseases of the brain to be sure, such as hydrocephalus, but I don't think that depression is one of them. I think there is a mechansim attributed to disease that is not apparent with depression, such as comunicability; you can't 'catch' depression, as well, as far as studies show depression is not geneticly inhereted, some sort of dimentia may be genetic but not depression to my knowledge, last, where depression and disease share a common characteristic in that both can be the result of environmental stressors, the mechanism of those stressors are completely and entirely removed from one another, you can't get cancer due to stress at work or home... simalarly you can't develop depression from say some environmental stressor like radiation... you certainly may become depressed because of your radiation sickness, but that is far removed from radiation as the mechanism for the development of depression.
This is not even getting into what really constitues the mechanism of the disease itself, how diseased tissue or cells infect other diseased cells; though there may not be this mechanism in all diseases (im no disease expert so it may in fact be inherent to all diseases), depression shows no sign of this type of mechanism whatsoever. If you think of disease as a corosive that will eventually erode away healthy tissue or cells, then you might make the mistake of saying that depression is similar in its gradual overall effect on mental health if left untreated, however the link between these two things is again far removed since again, there is no evidence that a disproportionate chemical imbalance will say, increase over time to the point of eventual death due to worsening physical health...
Someone, please correct me if you feel Im wrong...
Posted by Simcha on August 7, 2001, at 15:32:01
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone, posted by kid_A on August 7, 2001, at 13:47:25
> a. on the veer off the path, i think i am going to side w/ lissa in her points, especially as concerns external stressors... i will go so far as to say that i think that these stressors can even be oblique ones that are built in to a good percentage of the population as a whole, things such as anomie, the term durkheim had coined to describe the effect on mental health as the large scale behavioural structure of a society breaks down... as the social mores for behaviour start to untangle and eventually erode away some of us may increasingly be in a state of anomie, not having a good understanding of how we relate to one another, of what our social responsibilities to one another may be...OK,
Not to be terribly argumentative....
Diabetes and cancer have been shown to have their environmental factors aswell. If you eat a crappy diet and you are genetically pre-disposed to develop diabetes... you will most likely get diabetes.
If you eat a crap diet, don't exercise, smoke, work with nuclear waste, breathe in exhaust fumes, work with insecticides, or take certain drugs and you are genetically predisposed to certain types of cancers then you will most likely get cancer.
Like my depression. Psychoses, schizophrenia, paranoia, depression, OCD, and other mental illnesses run on both sides of my family. The pdoc reasons that I am genetically pre-disposed to depression and OCD. There were environmental factors that may or may not have triggered the depression and OCD. I did not have the best childhood.
Reasoning this way, yes, my mental illness is like cancer or diabetes. I need my meds to correct the very physical problems in my make-up like a diabetic needs insulin..like a cancer patient needs chemotherapy, surgery, and/or radiation.
Now, suicide can be a final stage or "final symptom" of my depression. Depression is fatal. So is cancer and diabetes if left untreated. Sometimes even with treatment cancer and diabetes do kill. Sometimes even with treatment those of us who suffer from mental illness take our own lives. A very dear friend in one of my 12-step groups committed suicide after many attempts and much treatment for his depression.
Now as to assisted suicide, personally I'm against it for any illness. I watched my grandmother die over the course of eight years. At no time did she want to be "put out of her misery." I'm not saying that I have a right to stop others from "checking out" in terminal situations. Morality, I find, is rarely as absolute as they would have liked me to believe in religious education.
I hope I'm not being too argumentative. I respect everyone's differences on these topics. This is a very interesting discussion we are having. ;-)
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 18:11:06
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone and lissa » kid_A, posted by Simcha on August 7, 2001, at 15:32:01
> Now, suicide can be a final stage or "final symptom" of my depression. Depression is fatal. So is cancer and diabetes if left untreated.
I think the key here is "left untreated." Many cancers are being better treated today because the "whole" person is being treated. We have come a long way in understanding how our will (spirit) can help or hinder us. The family friend who has cancer through her organs was given a month to live. The month has come and gone. She is seeking treatment and her spirits are good.
I'm not saying that her determination will keep her alive, but it is improving the quality of her life and prolonging it. I believe the same can be true for depression. Determination and effort can improve the quality of our lives.
With a mental illness it is difficult to seperate the person from the illness because our minds and personalities are affected. For myself stress of any kind affects me adversely as does any prolonged activity over several days. I've had to change my way of thinking.
Changing habits is very difficult to do, because they become so a part of us similar to breathing, and even recognizing them can be challenging. For this a person needs support. This support should be people who know the individual well, but what happens when these people contribute to the persons suffering? Then there should be community involvement. Even this "board" is a form of support. Many of us have made realizations from reading other's posts or experiences.
So along with talk therapies, medication, and perseverance the quality of our lives can be improved to the point were a suicidal thought becomes a part of a distant past.
For myself years ago when I found this "board" the mention of someone feeling suicidal sent me away for months. It was too painful of a subject for me to speak of or to even listen to someone else suffer through it. Not much later I started seeing a psychologist who was aware of my past suicide attempt.
He indirectly I think brought up the subject over the years. At one time I even denied that it was an attempt, perhaps I had just accidentally taken too much medication trying to stop the pain. He reminded me of the measures I had gone to. (On a funny note what saved me is I woke up, really out of it, but I had to go to the bathroom. Had I just gone in my room or wet myself things may have been different. The ingrained need to use a "potty" woke someone up because of my efforts to get there.) There were circumstances that led upto my attempt, but what really affected was the way I encountered them. I gave up.
I'm not a child anymore and have realized that I have to make choices. Some of them may be painful to reach the desired objective, but I have to weigh what is acceptable to me. Gees I'm rambling ...
I guess in short as a society we need to see that treatment for mental illnesses is available to every individual. We need to weigh when the persons is able to choose on their own to not accept treatment, but before we can say someone has to accept treatment we need to be able to assure that the best treatment is available to the individual.
Whispering Willow
Posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 19:14:02
In reply to Symptom, posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 18:11:06
Very briefly articulation not strong point-specially at moment.
Agree with kazoo about doctors job to save lifes.
In UK the [serial killer?] Dr. Shipman put to death many aged women whether or not they asked him or not the case isn't clear.
But the devastation of the family's left behind should speak against assisted suicide.
I carry a selfish veiw because family not close and no children so suicide occasionaly crosses my mind but a recent "enlightening xperience has made me seek alternatives.
My step-father slowly deteriated for many years his body rotting away with MS also shitzophrenic and although I suffered mentally and the fact that I really had no love compassion for him I still wouldn't have assisted in his death.Effexor has made me a argument free-zone.
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 20:23:56
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 19:14:02
I may have mentioned this before, oops if I did. My grandmother had broke her hip. The doctors removed her blood thinners so they could operate. Meanwhile the doctors were arguing wether it was safe to operate or not she had a stroke, because her meds were withdrawn. They probably added many years to her life.
Well after the stoke the doctors said she had 24hrs left. The days turned into weeks. There was nothing peaceful about her death, drawn out breaths, not concious. I argued to my mom that this was cruel. Her reply was that my grandmother didn't believe in euthanasia.
During this same time my goldfish of three years and many accidents with the children kept turnig on its side and back upright, but you could tell it wasn't going to make it. Everyone told me to flush him. I just couldn't do it.
I know my first two children's births were difficult. My third was easier. Perhaps some of us have a more difficult time leaving this world, just as some of our arrivals are swifter.
Willow
Posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 20:35:49
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 19:14:02
I worked in real world once in a stressful job.
People were tired of shift work bosses were, well
strict.
A guy worked their was always nervous on edge something in his personal life wasn't going too well and work didn't help.
I was always unoticably intoxicated and unconcerned about other collegues.
One evening I was told he hung himself.
I still think of him when ill even though I never knew his name.
Grim.
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 20:57:42
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 20:35:49
> I was always unoticably intoxicated and unconcerned about other collegues.
> One evening I was told he hung himself.
> I still think of him when ill even though I never knew his name.Do you wish that you had reached out? Or is it more like a missing piece from a puzzle?
Willow
Posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 21:24:02
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 20:57:42
> > I was always unoticably intoxicated and unconcerned about other collegues.
> > One evening I was told he hung himself.
> > I still think of him when ill even though I never knew his name.
>
> Do you wish that you had reached out? Or is it more like a missing piece from a puzzle?
>
> WillowI was so anti-social in a way always jumping to conclusions a really horrible person-xtreme mood swings. He once sat in control room trying to converse with me about some music we were watching I ingnored him.I guess then I didn't understand that most people are genuinely friendly and not after something . So yes suppose I wished I'd of reached out or at least was warm towards him.
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 22:00:36
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 21:24:02
Ah Dreamer, he probably didn't like your breath or something. (Bad joke, you are suppose to laugh!) Or he was allergic to cat hair and you were covered in it!
You mentioned what a miserable place it was to work. My second real bout of depression was probably work related. It never dawned on me to quit until four years later. I thought I was the problem though everyone complained about the owner. Not a people person!
Hindsight isn't always a good thing is it?
Willow
Posted by kazoo on August 7, 2001, at 23:12:24
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted? » kazoo, posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 10:57:20
> PS: btw, kazoo, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, ADHD, etc., _ARE_ *organic* diseases just like AIDS, cancer, diabetes, hypertension, etc.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Organic v. Inorganic
Brain v. Mind
Disease v. Disorder
How can depression, an affective emotional disorder, be classified as "organic"? Is the brain diseased? Or is the mind disordered?
Did Freud treat hysteria as an organic disease? Freud was *not* a medical doctor but his buddy Fliess was. When Fliess tried treating disorders via organic, surgical methods, he failed miserably (although some of his work is making a comeback).
This is an interesting question, I must admit, and nothing is really clear either way. Arguments can be made for both view points.
Perhaps I'm attaching a strict chemical view to "organic" and "inorganic"; the former involving carbon-based compounds, and the latter about synthetic materials.
However, I have always felt that mental illness is not an organic disease simply because it involves the mind.
And as we all know:
Q. WHAT IS MIND?
A. No matter...
Q. THEN WHAT IS MATTER?
A. Nevermind...!Still confused? I am.
kazoo
Posted by dreamer on August 8, 2001, at 8:21:16
In reply to Work, posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 22:00:36
>
> Hindsight isn't always a good thing is it?
>
> WillowIf I know then what I know now oh:( applies to many many events . Thats why I've been working hard on a time travel machine .
Taking bookings, anyone interested please direct your interest to babble adminstration. Bobby boy is away on it right now to meet Mr. Freud.
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 9:32:53
In reply to Re: Work, posted by dreamer on August 8, 2001, at 8:21:16
You don't want to go back and do it all over again, you'll just end up with a whole new set of problems. Believe it or not, the ones we have now are easier to deal with because we are familiar with them.
Willow
Posted by dreamer on August 8, 2001, at 10:41:31
In reply to Oh NO!! » dreamer, posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 9:32:53
> You don't want to go back and do it all over again, you'll just end up with a whole new set of problems. Believe it or not, the ones we have now are easier to deal with because we are familiar with them.
>
> WillowI wouldnt be in this frame of mind now if it wasn't for zee past + evolved into what I am today + still evolving
So it's been a pointless post. Scatterbrained me.
Time for a nap.
Posted by kid_A on August 8, 2001, at 10:53:39
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone and lissa » kid_A, posted by Simcha on August 7, 2001, at 15:32:01
> Not to be terribly argumentative....
arguments are okay, as long as no body gets too riled up! :) this is indeed, a very debate worth topic...
> Reasoning this way, yes, my mental illness is like cancer or diabetes. I need my meds to correct the very physical problems in my make-up like a diabetic needs insulin..like a cancer patient needs chemotherapy, surgery, and/or radiation.
My point is that unlike cancer or say diabetes, you won't one day wake up dead if you ignore treatment for depression. So I think we can say that depression is 'like' a disease in that certain people may be more predisposed to it than others, and that there seems to be certain actions that seem disease-like, but I still think it is a stretch, and I dont think I would be alone in the medical community, to say that depression is a disease propper.
Maybe it's for my own good, but I feel good knowing that I'm not 'diseased'... I felt sick, to be sure... even physically so, but I feel comforted in saying that I do not have a 'disease'...
As for end-stage terminal illness assisted suicide; I watched my mother wither away over a period of a year from acute lymphatic luekemia, when she wasnt in slight remission she was very sick and in a lot of pain, very scared, I think... I don't think that I would like to have thought that my mother would prefer to die on her own terms, because I'ts my mother, and I want to keep her as long as I can, but I would have done anything to end her pain in whatever way was possible, and if that meant by her own choice, then for her own good, and to honor her, and to put some end to her own personal pain, her own personal world of pain that is so very dificult for any of us to know, yes I would in the end accept her death on her own terms.
Posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:07:05
In reply to Re: the big 'O' versus the big non-'O' » Ted, posted by kazoo on August 7, 2001, at 23:12:24
Hi Kazoo,
NO FLAMES INTENDED!
The only way I can make my point effectively is to use a formal proof (remember highschool geometry class?). I know it sounds rather hard-assed, but I think it gets my point across effectively.
You do not have to agree -- this topic is complex and has very personal implications to those of use who read this board.
Please bear with me.
Ted
Here goes:
> How can depression, an affective emotional
> disorder, be classified as "organic"?*** First proof ***
Argument:
Depression is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes (type A) is caused by the lack of insulin production.Fact:
Lack of insulin production is identical to lack of regulation unless the desired regulation level is zero.Fact:
A living person requires the insulin regulation level to be greater than zero.Fact:
Depression is caused by lack of regulation of serotonin and other neurotransmitters.Conclusion:
By analogy, by lack of regulation of essential biochemicals, the process of diabetes is identical to the process of depression.
QED.*** Second proof ***
Argument:
Depression is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes (type B) is caused by the lack of the body's response to the insulin produced.Fact:
Depression is caused by lack of receptor sensitivity to serotonin and other neurotransmitters.Conclusion:
By analogy, by lack of sensitivity & reaction to essential biochemicals, the process of diabetes is identical to the process of depression.
QED.*** end proofs ***
btw, if you are not familiar with formal proofs, "QED" means "quod exempli demonstratum" or "which was demonstrated". It is used to end proofs.
> > PS: btw, kazoo, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, ADHD, etc., _ARE_ *organic* diseases just like AIDS, cancer, diabetes, hypertension, etc.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Organic v. Inorganic
>
> Brain v. Mind
>
> Disease v. Disorder
>
> How can depression, an affective emotional disorder, be classified as "organic"? Is the brain diseased? Or is the mind disordered?
Posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:35:20
In reply to Re: the big 'O' versus the big non-'O' » kazoo, posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:07:05
> Hi Kazoo,
Here is another way to look at it. With depression, no matter how you look at it, there is no Big 'O' (orgasm, that is). I think that is something we can agree on. :-(
Ted
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