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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:11:04
In reply to Not sure if it is a good thing » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on June 16, 2005, at 19:07:39
And I'm positive it's not a good thing.
Not even my emotional divorces, which usually happen for very good reasons. Still, I mourn the loss of any connection.
It's connections that make me feel fully human.
Posted by pinkeye on June 16, 2005, at 19:13:00
In reply to Re: Not sure if it is a good thing » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:09:30
Sometimes I have felt I have a very deep unconscious desire to hurt and not be happy. I like hurting because I am used to it from childhood and it feels comfortable and though it is bad, I feel like it is something I have known all my life. Sometimes when I am happy, I get very agitated and want to go back to hurting. Maybe this sounds crazy, but it happens.
Something like that happened possibly to you? I don't know really, I am just throwing out ideas. Or maybe you were artificially happy.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:15:53
In reply to Re: Not sure if it is a good thing » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on June 16, 2005, at 19:13:00
The artificial happiness comes from my rational side. "She who is as she should be". My "as if" front with delusions of being real. :)
Genuine happiness comes from my most primitive archaic emotional self.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 16, 2005, at 19:16:22
In reply to Continued, but with trigger, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 18:56:15
> For the first time in ages, I was awake this morning at four am with SI urges.
>
> Well, it's not the first time I was awake. That's been happening since I dropped the Depakote. My sleep pattern's back to what it used to be.
>
> SI urges and temper tantrums used to be the only way my emotional self could speak, being so isolated.It definitely sounds like your emotional side went into full rebellion about being ignored and exiled. I'm not familiar with Depakote -- what is it, and how does it affect your sleep? Why don't you take it now -- sorry if I missed that part somewhere. Could you be going through a med readjustment in addition to readjusting to a strong rational side?
What does your T say about integrating those two parts so that they don't have totally contradicting agendas? I have tried integration for a long time now but with little success. Those splits are there for a reason, as I'm sure you know.
Is there any way to ask your T to throw your emotional side a lifeline when he sees that you are rationally strong? My T has me divided similarly, except more parts. The domineering side is a cynical one, and when that part is in full mode, he tells me to be quiet and that he only cares to speak for the wounded parts. He really advocates for those young, emotional parts, and I'm always so grateful because they cannot fight my cynic. And your emotional side can't compete with a jolly, excited intellectual Dinah.
Please take care, and call your T about those urges. Stay safe.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by pinkeye on June 16, 2005, at 19:17:23
In reply to Re: Not sure if it is a good thing » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:15:53
Same for me too.. but I think this authentic happiness is not achievable most of the times. So we have to fake this kind of artificial, mind controlled happiness. That is what most people seem to do. I think that is what is possible, and when we aim for this authentic happiness, we get depressed.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:24:38
In reply to Re: Continued, but with trigger » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on June 16, 2005, at 19:16:22
I called but I didn't leave a message. I'll see him tomorrow. I'm not feeling really confident right now that he can help me. In any way at all.
He isn't able to reach out too much. He's just too laid back and self contained. Ordinarily I like that. But right now I need something different. And yes, I told him that. But I don't think he can do anything differently. And if he tried, he probably would feel uncomfortable, and it wouldn't likely be what I needed anyway.
I think I need him to grab me by the scruff of the neck (metaphorically speaking), shake me and tell me to fight. Lend me some energy. But I don't think he can.
I've never understood the appeal of integration, or even cooperation. :)
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:26:49
In reply to Re: Not sure if it is a good thing » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on June 16, 2005, at 19:17:23
I think if I quit aiming, I just as well lay down and die. The sort of superficial life I led before, where "ok" and "upset" were the only two emotions I could recognize, wasn't worth living.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:34:13
In reply to Re: Not sure if it is a good thing » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:26:49
Posted by pinkeye on June 16, 2005, at 19:47:34
In reply to Re: Not sure if it is a good thing » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:26:49
I also feel that sometimes. BUt sometimes I feel like giving it all up
Posted by littleone on June 16, 2005, at 21:15:10
In reply to I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about it, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 10:46:18
I had been wondering if there was more going on with you than you'd let on. You just haven't been yourself since the babble party. I'm glad you posted about it.
I can understand your fear about letting the rational side take over. And as bad as si'ing is, I'm still glad that your emotional side isn't going without a fight. That it still wants to be heard.
I know your rational/emotional states are different to mine, so I'm not sure how relevant this is. But I know that for me, dissociating and being overly rational are sometimes linked. Like I use being rational as a way to cut off and compartmentalise my emotional parts. I just close off my emotional side.
If you think that sort of thing is partly at play, perhaps you could look up some sites/books about grounding techniques. To be honest I can't really recall any off the top of my head, but I would try to go for less thinking and more feelings ones. I think one is to close you eyes and sit for a few minutes and be aware of everything you can hear or everything you can smell, etc.
The other thing is to try to find ways to reconnect to your emotional side. I found drawing very helpful for this. I especially found that when I started to do 2 or 3 drawings a day, I started to stay in that younger more emotional state for a lot longer. I know you've talked before about playing with your barbies, would that help? Playing with your puppies a lot may help too.
I hope this helps just a little. I've missed you lately.
Posted by Jazzed on June 16, 2005, at 23:09:15
In reply to Re: can you elaborate more?? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 18:44:22
> But the rational intellectual side of me feels stronger than it has for years. Excited about the idea of starting school. Determined to become better organized and a better employee.Hi Dinah,
Is the feeling of losing the emotional self related to stopping the Depakote? I don't know because I've never taken it. Are you off of it now? What does your T say about your feelings, and about the Depakote issue?
Is it possible that your intellectual side is trying to disconnect from your current issues, to make new connections that are more in line with going back to school? Do you feel that the two are so incompatible that they can't both be alive at the same time? Being in therapy and Babble can take a lot of time, but school will take a lot of time too. If you're doing both and working you could be overwhelmed. So, could this be defensive?
I hate to see you feel so disconnected Dinah. I know how important going back to school is to you, and how much you have to offer. I hope you can get this worked out, so that you can be completely happy with your decision.
Jazzy
Posted by Jazzed on June 16, 2005, at 23:13:58
In reply to Re: I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about i » daisym, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 18:53:35
> I think I'm angry right now. Because he's not giving me anything to grab on to. He's so contained that all there is is slippery plastic to grab on to.
Is it possible he's doing this because he realizes how conflicted you are, and if he extends a hand, that you'll reach out, grab on, stay with therapy and NOT go back to school?
Why don't you ask him why he isn't giving you anything to grab onto? Tell him how angry you're feeling.
Jazzy
Posted by Jazzed on June 16, 2005, at 23:18:02
In reply to Continued, but with trigger, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 18:56:15
>
> SI urges and temper tantrums used to be the only way my emotional self could speak, being so isolated.I think you need to tell your T how angry all of this is making you, and that you have these urges. Sound as though somewhere you feel as though you are being pushed away by your T, and you want to get his attention in a big way. I could be wrong, and I'm not trying to make you angry, but this was just my initial reaction. It's what I would do too. I have trouble expressing these kinds of things in words, so I use actions.
Jazzy
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 7:45:07
In reply to Re: I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about it » Dinah, posted by littleone on June 16, 2005, at 21:15:10
I've missed me too.
I'll give those things a try. And my rational self hasn't been as strong or happy the last couple of days. Work productivity isn't really improving despite all my innovations, and that's cast doubt on the whole school idea. The idea behind school was that happy and energized I would also do better at work.
It feels kind of bad to know that for one part of me to exist, the other part can't be too happy or excited. Or too miserable and upset of course.
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 7:50:04
In reply to Re: I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about i, posted by Jazzed on June 16, 2005, at 23:13:58
> Is it possible he's doing this because he realizes how conflicted you are, and if he extends a hand, that you'll reach out, grab on, stay with therapy and NOT go back to school?
I doubt it. He's not happy about the idea of reducing to once a week therapy, or losing touch with my emotional self. He thinks school is an impulsive, ill thought out decision, born of depakote-withdrawal induced hypomania. I keep arguing that I can't be hypomanic because I am sleeping well enough and am not tingly and hypersensitive.
>
> Why don't you ask him why he isn't giving you anything to grab onto? Tell him how angry you're feeling.It's definitely me who is pulling away, not him. But I am angry with him about that, and intend to tell him so. I don't think it will do any good though. He is who he is, and I like him that way. I can't expect him to be other than himself just because I need it right now.
Posted by happyflower on June 17, 2005, at 8:39:51
In reply to I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about it, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 10:46:18
You know I have been driving myself nuts on what to say to you about this, but I don't get it, it goes over my head! But I guess all I can offer is my support and safe hugs to you! I hope you feel better. :)
Posted by cricket on June 17, 2005, at 12:52:18
In reply to Re: I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about i » daisym, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 18:53:35
> I think I'm angry right now. Because he's not giving me anything to grab on to. He's so contained that all there is is slippery plastic to grab on to.
>
> I need him to extend a hand and help me hold on.
>
> I see your therapist doing that all the time.
>
> Mine doesn't. :((((
>
> Maybe picking a fight with him isn't that bad an idea. Or throwing a temper tantrum. Anything to grab on to something.Hi Dinah,
I think our Ts are a lot alike in the way you describe above.
Self-contained, not enmeshed, not rescuers.
And sometimes, d**n it, it's not want we need.
I wish I knew what to tell you to do. I wish I had this one figured out.
Let us know how it goes.
Do you tell him about the SI urges? That should certainly send up a warning flag, shouldn't it?
Posted by Tamar on June 17, 2005, at 17:21:51
In reply to I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about it, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 10:46:18
> Because I know it makes people feel uncomfortable.
>
> My emotional self is afraid it's slipping away. As my rational/intellectual side becomes stronger and stronger.I think you're right to be concerned. It sounds as if things haven't been going off balance for a little while.
I know when I start losing touch with my emotions it's usually because I'm very angry about something. I don't know if it works the same way for you. And I think you're probably talking about something more profound than my experience. But in this thread you've used a lot of language about fighting and being angry.
I suspect if I were in your shoes I'd be furious at my therapist for being less than fully enthusiastic about going back to school. Do you feel his attitude is a slap in the face for your attempts to find solutions? Do you feel that his lack of support for the idea is tacitly undermining you by undermining something you know you excel at (i.e. studying)? If it were me I'd be angry about that. But that's just me.
Sorry, I can't seem to string a coherent thought together at the moment. I hope you find a way to sort this out with your therapist.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 22:21:50
In reply to Re: I'm afraid but I'm also afraid to post about it » Dinah, posted by Tamar on June 17, 2005, at 17:21:51
My therapist not only gave me a huge handhold, but he also gave a pretty good reason for why it happened to begin with. I feel much stronger, and I don't think I'll be going anywhere immediately.
It turns out that my therapist has been interviewing and negotiating for a job a couple of hours away. He was planning to commute, stay over a few nights, but arrange to have time to see clients friday afternoons, with me especially in mind because he takes his commitment to me seriously and he cares about me. It fell through yesterday.
I probably picked up a lot of ambivalence or worry or something the last few weeks. Or most likely, an increased level of guard up on his part, which made me feel disconnected. And since I didn't know why, I blamed myself for it entirely and felt more and more disconnected.
I'm glad he told me about it. It explains so much. And it certainly gave me something to hold on to. Fear that he's looking for a job, and won't be as available to me as before, even if he is committed to making sure he can see me at least once a week. I'm grateful for that. But I got scared enough that I can tell I certainly do care.
I was just picking up something I didn't understand and internalizing it.
He really ought to let me know a bit of what's going on, so I don't let the subtle changes make me crazy.
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2005, at 10:12:49
In reply to Re: I think it got sorted out today, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 22:21:50
That he was encouraging me to dig deeper and come three times a week. And he was discouraging me from dropping to once a week, even if it was because I was going back to school. And all the time he was applying for a job that would have forced me to only see him once a week, no matter what my actual need was.
I know I should be happy that he was making sure he wouldn't abandon me entirely. And I am very grateful that he was making sure he wouldn't abandon me. I really am.
So I feel like I shouldn't be irritated.
But shouldn't he have encouraged me to go down to once a week on my own so that I wouldn't be hurt so much when he did it to me?
I know it's currently a moot point, but...
And I really am grateful that he kept my needs in mind, and wouldn't abandon me.
Posted by pegasus on June 19, 2005, at 12:05:41
In reply to I think I might be irritated, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2005, at 10:12:49
But wouldn't you have felt deceived if he'd encouraged you to drop to once a week and then shortly after taken a job that would only allow once anyway? I would have. This way at least you didn't have to go through the pain of dropping to less time before you had to.
pegasus
Posted by Tamar on June 19, 2005, at 15:17:02
In reply to I think I might be irritated, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2005, at 10:12:49
I think if I were you I'd feel irritated too, but I think pegasus has a good point. What he did was irritating, but what he might have done instead could have seemed manipulative.
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2005, at 16:28:11
In reply to Re: I think I might be irritated » Dinah, posted by Tamar on June 19, 2005, at 15:17:02
But the idea for cutting back was coming from me. And he was discouraging it.
I dunno. My dislike of abandonment is such that I'd rather even partial abandonment come from me. I wouldn't mind nearly as much feeling like he agreed for his own benefit as I will mind when he fully or partially abandons me.
But I am glad he cares enough about me to make sure he sees me at least once a week. So I don't think I should feel annoyed.
Ironically I just remembered that the issue we were working on before I started slipping away was abandonment. :(
Posted by sunny10 on June 20, 2005, at 12:23:02
In reply to Re: I think I might be irritated, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2005, at 16:28:11
when I get to the point of self-harm, it is usually because I am so angry. Angry at others for not understanding me, mad at them for hurting me, made at myself for not being able to make myself understood, mad at myself for allowing what someone else else says or does to hurt me.
I am angry at the world. And I am angry most of all that "there is no way out" (well, in depression it always seems that way). I am angry that my life is all work and no play. Even when I am not "at work", I am still working to practice all of these coping skills all the time. I am angry and exhausted.
Yet the only place were only one person knows this about me is at work! No matter what my head is doing, my work doesn't suffer much. I may be a little distractible, a little less focussed, a little less motivated, but no one ever knows that I am suffering on the inside.
But it is a lot of work to keep up that facade. And I think you are feeling the same kind of exhaustion. You are making a conscious decision to stop feeling.
Problem is, you can't stop yourself from feeling. You can only stop yourself from validating your own feelings. And we all know that when we don't validate our feelings, we stuff them deep inside and need more years of therapy to drag them into the light of day and deal with them! What it takes us two days to deal with "in the moment" takes about two years to unearth in therapy, I think.
My question to you is this;
Do you really want to create MORE future work for yourself?
I am struggling, too, with trying to get my logical side to mesh with my emotional side and it's tough. I am not for one second suggesting that it is easy. I, obviously, have not mastered it.
But I won't stop trying.
Humongous Hugs to you, Dinah.
I'm thinking of you.
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2005, at 12:50:04
In reply to Re: I think I might be irritated » Dinah, posted by sunny10 on June 20, 2005, at 12:23:02
No, I really don't. And my emotional side is feeling stronger again. It wasn't that I wasn't fighting for feelings. I just couldn't seem to grasp hold.
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