![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
Alexandra_K writes: 'you have to change to be acceptable'
But that is bollocks
(cognitive error #1 of CBT)This is what I am wrestling with right now.
I am scheduled to see a Vocational Rehabilitation Counselor on Thursday. I've talked to him on the phone and he seems really nice, knowledgable and helpful. I am scared to death. I'm not scared of the meeting. I'm scared about what the meeting means. This meeting carries with it the assumption that I will go back to work at some point. Not Thursday, not next month, maybe in a couple of years even. This terrifies me because I *know* that I'm not ready to go back to work. I am 100% sure that I don't have the skills necessary to prevent another crash (like the 2 I have had).
So, you ask, why am I going to talk to a Voc Rehab counselor if I'm not ready to go back to work? There are two reasons: First, I believe that it will take me some time to get ready to go back to work. So I will need to start getting ready to go back to work before I am *able* to go back to work. So there is a different question that needs to be answered now - am I ready to start getting ready to go to work? If I start things in motion, will they take on a momentum of their own? Will I be able to control the progress? What happens if I am ready by training before I am psychologically ready? What if I am able to do the training, but end up never able to return to work? Voc Rehab will be spending (the government's) resources on me. Can I ask them to do that if I'm not sure that I will ever be able to work?
The second issue is the one that Alexandra brings up. I know that I am not ready to go back to work. Yet I feel that I *must* go back to work. My therapist keeps asking who is it who is requiring me to go back. It isn't Social Security - they have not said anything that would even remotely suggest that they are considering dropping my SSDI. It isn't him - he has told me many times that *he* doesn't care if I am working or not. He only cares that I am living the life I want to live. It isn't my parents/siblings. They haven't asked when I'm going back to work in a very long time. They seem to accept the status quo. It isn't my kids. They don't say derogatory things about my being on disability. They would rather I wasn't depressed, but I don't think that it matters to them if I am working or not. It isn't my friends. They don't tell me to get off my rear and go to work.
So, obviously it is me who has this requirement. Somehow, knowing that doesn't make it any easier... I guess that I feel like all of the people I talked about above are being patient. That they think that being on SSDI is OK for me *for now*. But that the expectation of everyone is that at some point I will "get better" and go back to work. That who I am right now is not acceptable. That they will only tolerate me if they can have the expectation that eventually I will change. Do they really feel this way? Or am I projecting my feelings on to them? They say all the "right things". Why don't I believe them? Why do I believe that my therapist is disappointed in my lack of progress? Why do I feel like I am failing because I haven't succeeded in being ready to work? Who sets the timetable? Going back to work is *my* goal. But what if I *can't* reach that goal?
I don't understand how we can both be accepted as we are right now, and still have goals to change. If we have goals to change, doesn't that mean that we aren't acceptable the way we are? I guess that some might say that it is analogous to watching a kid grow up. A two year old is acceptable even though he isn't able to do the things that a grown up is able to do. He is at an acceptable place for where he is in the process of growing up. So I can try to say that I have learning/healing/growing to do - but I'm 48 years old. I'm supposed to know how to earn a living. How long is this process supposed to take? I've been working on it for 10 years now. If the kid is 6 and still acts like they are 2, isn't that no longer acceptable?
I know that my therapist would be happy if I were able to go back to work - because he knows that is what I want. But doesn't that mean that he will be unhappy if I can't go back to work? Doesn't it mean that he equates success with my going back to work? He tells me that those conclusions are not valid. But I can't believe him.
Posted by partlycloudy on March 8, 2005, at 13:49:53
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
I have a question about changing and for whom we change, then: if you were to not go back to work but volunteer somewhere (whether in your field of expertise or in another capacity), would it hold the same fears for you than if you took a job?
Maybe you'd feel more comfortable doing a job if you weren't getting paid to do it. Would it satisfy your sense of self worth? You'd be making a contribution - the only thing missing would be the money you'd earn otherwise.
Or what about a part time job? If it's job stress that contributes to your crashes (and I live with some anxiety that I'll fall apart again, too), maybe taking on a job that doesn't ask as much of your time and effort would be rewarding.
Just some thoughts.
Posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 14:35:38
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
A person is acceptable in whatever state he or she is in.. does not matter whether you look beautiful, or if you work, or if you know how to cook, or if you are intelligent or smart.
But it may not suit the person for real life challenges, for instance, you don't have to work if you are born a multimillionaire. And a rich kid may never learn to work a day's worth of hard work in its life. But he/she will be able to get by with that, and people would most likely even praise them and hang around them. And in plenty of countries, women don't work. period. All they do is cook and take care of the house and kids. That is all they ever do. My mother does only that. Does that mean you are not acceptable ? No.
It just means, that you are ok with not working, but since you need money, you need to pick up the skills to work. Acceptance is different from being perfect. If you are perfect, you never need to change. But none of the human beings are perfect. All of us have some difficulty with something or the other in our lives and we all need to change that. If accpeting someone means that person has to be perfect, then none of us - including Bill Gates would be acceptable.
Does that help?
Posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 15:13:45
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 14:35:38
Falls,
I think you are forgetting to add into the equation "can" vs. "want to". If you can't work, due to a disability, that is acceptable. If you "just" don't want to...want someone to take are of you forever and ever...and are willing to do anything to get that to happen....that would be unacceptable. Do you see the difference?
We offer compassion and supports to people who can't work, who can't care for themselves and who have disabilities. That is why we have SSDI for example.
So if you believe that working will make you crash, than you can't work right now. And just because you can't right now doesn't mean you can't forever. But just because you can't right now doesn't mean you HAVE TO at some point in the future, either.
Please show yourself the same compassion I've seen you show hundreds of time here.
(((Falls))) I know this is very hard.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 16:59:21
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
I don't profess to understand it all...
But I shall have a go...> I don't understand how we can both be accepted as we are right now, and still have goals to change. If we have goals to change, doesn't that mean that we aren't acceptable the way we are?
You can accept yourself just as you are right now. Right now you can't go back to work. You could get mad and frustrated or whatever with that - or you can accept it. That is the way things are right now and you can accept that.
But that doesn't preclude you from wanting to move from the state you are currently in to a state that you would prefer. If you would prefer to be working then you can have that goal while at the very same time accepting the present situation for what it is right now.
Acceptance doesn't preclude desire to change.
Desire to change doesn't preclude acceptance.Try not to think of it as moving from a less perfect state to a more perfect state though.
Think of it as moving from a less prefered state to a more preferred one.>I guess that some might say that it is analogous to watching a kid grow up. A two year old is acceptable even though he isn't able to do the things that a grown up is able to do. He is at an acceptable place for where he is in the process of growing up.
Yes. And all of life is a journey...
Everything is perfect just as it is
but that is not to preclude our having preferences.>I'm supposed to know how to earn a living.
If you put a 'should' in there (live you have with the 'supposed to') then you aren't accepting the situation as it is. You aren't accepting you as you currently are. It is true (by the sounds of it) that you would PREFER to be working, that you would LIKE to be working. But the 'should' or the 'supposed to' doesn't seem to be helping..
>How long is this process supposed to take? I've been working on it for 10 years now. If the kid is 6 and still acts like they are 2, isn't that no longer acceptable?
I don't think there is a fixed time that it is 'supposed to' take. If you accept the situation as it is. And still think that working would be preferable then it would seem to be time to figure out some of the things you can do to return. A couple of hours a week. A day a week. Two days a week. Whatever. But if you judge yourself for not being able to go back the way you would like then you will probably just get upset with yourself and that won't be helpful to you.
Saying you would like or prefer to go back to work is one thing (that is consonant with acceptance).
Saying you should be able to go back to work is another (that seems to preclude acceptance).Does that make any sense at all???
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 17:06:39
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable, posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 15:13:45
> I think you are forgetting to add into the equation "can" vs. "want to". If you can't work, due to a disability, that is acceptable. If you "just" don't want to...want someone to take are of you forever and ever...and are willing to do anything to get that to happen....that would be unacceptable. Do you see the difference?
:-(
I don't want to work.
I don't consider tutoring to be work.
I don't consider my working in the library to be work (I wanted to learn library of congress cataloguing system).
If I can't be doing that
I don't want to be doing anything at all.
Really.
I sit on the dole...
Or whatever.
Good old government ;-)Do you think that is unacceptable?
That if I don't get into somewhere I want to go for my PhD then I shall go on the dole for a while.
Attend courses by just turning up.
Write.
But not work.
Oh hell no
Never that.
Posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 19:16:37
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » daisym, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 17:06:39
Hi Alex,
I think the problem with you is you are some sort of super smart. That is your problem. You understand things so clearly.. Then why are you in so much trouble? Why can't you work your way to your wellness?I really can't understand. You said a while back that you suffer a lot.. but I can see now how capable you are.. So why don't you figure out a way for yourself to get better?
To some extent that is what I did. I was perhaps not as smart as you are, but I did have an above average IQ. And I was suffering so much. And I also knew quite a bit of logical thinking and even knowledge about emotions and such. But I was not able to feel happy. Are you in the same state as I was?
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 19:53:59
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by partlycloudy on March 8, 2005, at 13:49:53
Thanks for your thoughts, PartlyCloudy.
I do currently work 10 hours a week at the local library. I started out volunteering there. In the course of my (very) part time job, I run into issues which I know have contributed to my crashes in the past. For example, if someone is not doing as good a job as I think they should, and they are not willing to improve, then I tend to take over and do my job and their job, too. I know this is a problem, but I haven't worked out the solution yet. The fact that I'm part time helps to make the issue clearer, and I am working on it. So from my part time work, I can see that there are issues I still need to learn to deal with.
The job fear is related to "failing". I put whatever effort is needed into a job to be sure that I don't fail (I am a recovering workaholic). Twice, though, I have worked for companies that have been going through layoffs. In those companies, valuable employees who were doing a good job were being laid off. I think that that stress contributed greatly to my crashes. I don't know if I could "fail" while volunteering - usually a volunteer who is not doing what is necessary is reassigned. And if you don't have to pay them, then you don't need to lay them off.
But I would feel guilty if I thought I was "capable" of working, yet I was volunteering. Some of the issue is what the definition of "capable" is. Perhaps if the work leads to a crash that indicates that I'm not "capable". The guilt involves being "capable" yet still accepting money from Social Security.
My current plan includes a change from Software to Libraries in an attempt to reduce the intrinsic stress of the job. I'm just not convinced that it will be enough of a difference.
It is helpful for me to be doing work where when I'm feeling better I can do more than is expected, and when I'm feeling lousy I can still meet expectations.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 20:11:26
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 14:35:38
Hi Pinkeye,
Your point that different life circumstances permit different lifestyles is a valid one. And I agree that the ability to work is not required to be an "acceptable human being".
I guess that my issue is that if I am "disabled" then the government will give me money to live on. I feel like I should be living up to my potential - and everyone tells me how capable I am. Accepting disability money doesn't feel like living up to my potential. Even accepting an inheritance and living off of that doesn't feel like living up to my potential. I guess I have money issues... It should be that if I were independently wealthy that I should be able to feel that I'm living up to my potential by volunteering. But I think that I would feel like I should be making money to pass on to my children.........
Perhaps if I decide that I *can't* work, that would require me to admit that I am not a "capable" person. I'm just not ready to give up on that yet. But the road to being "capable" seems impossibly hard.
I long ago gave up the notion that I need to be perfect. At this point I would be happy to be able to simply support myself.
I guess the problem is that *I* don't feel that I am acceptable.
Posted by partlycloudy on March 8, 2005, at 20:12:29
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » partlycloudy, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 19:53:59
I have spent most of my time in therapy on work and performance related anxiety. I have downgraded myself over several jobs so that now I am a receptionist - a job which I insist is low stress, yet; I have extremely well defined hours of work that are difficult to adjust (for appointments or crashes); I do a job no one else wants to do, and I've been at this place for almost 2 years and I'm only now becoming comfortable there.
Please, please, please - don't go back to anything full time before YOU are ready and eager to go back.
Don't think that you change to change YOURSELF - it's how you react to others' performance and behaviour on the job that you can change - not the fundamental Falls behind it.
It's OK to work within your comfort levels - and maybe this volunteer position is a good time to try to change your reaction to others' performances. Instead of making up others' shortcomings by doing it yourself, see what happens if you do *nothing*. What will happen? Really?
Also, lastly, I am grateful to my ex-husband for teaching me a most valuable life lesson (OK, apart from the 18 years we were married); and that is not to let myself be defined by the work I do.
hugs to you, Fallsfall.
pc.
Posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 20:19:04
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » daisym, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 17:06:39
I didn't say not working wasn't acceptable. I said manipulating people to have them take care of you is unacceptable. Or at least that is what I meant to say.
Personal choice is always acceptable. And if you've figured out how to meet your basic needs and you aren't hurting anyone else, whatever choice you make is fine by me. I don't think anyone has to lead a socially acceptable life style, they should lead the one that makes them happy. I just don't want anyone else to be hurt or manipulated along the way.
Is this any clearer? Probably not. Sorry...full day of meetings and my brain is fried.
:(
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 20:21:28
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable, posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 15:13:45
Ah, the old "can't" vs. "don't want to". But aren't we told that if we work hard enough in therapy that we "can". So doesn't that mean that if I "can't" that I'm not working hard enough to change that to a "can"? Maybe I still can't see that I have limits. When is accepting limits being "realistic" and when is it "giving up"?
Isn't it my responsibility to get better? Am I not failing if I don't? How long can I try to get better before I should admit that this is as good as it is going to get? I know I'm not there yet - but how do I know when I *am* there?
How do we know if I "can't" or if I'm just too stubborn to "can"?
Sorry to be so bitter. I do appreciate your compassion - I just can't find the same compassion for myself.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:29:43
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 16:59:21
Thanks, Alexandra. You make some good points.
I think that I have accepted that I can't work today. What I haven't accepted is that I may not be able to work next year. I have a goal, but honestly don't know if I will be able to achieve it or not. I don't know how many obstacles will be in my way. I don't know if I will be able to successfully get around them.
>Try not to think of it as moving from a less perfect state to a more perfect state though.
Think of it as moving from a less prefered state to a more preferred one.This reminds me of when we would fix bugs in our software programs and say that we had replaced that "feature" with a more popular one 8^).
You are correct that the "I *should* be able to earn a living" doesn't seem to be helping. But somehow knowing that doesn't make my expectations change.
I think that some of my frustration is that I *have* figured out what I need to do in order to change the situation. But I find that I am not able to do those things - which leaves me stuck in the situation. So now I need to figure out what I have to do to be able to do the things that I need to be able to do in order to go back to work. It just seems like I go from baby steps to microorganism steps...
What you say does make sense. But I haven't figured out how to do it. It all seems to hinge on acceptance - and I don't have that. And to say "OK. So I'll just accept myself." seems to be sort of like how you describe your experience with CBT... Sigh.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:32:43
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 19:16:37
Being intellectually smart is not necessarily an advantage in therapy. In many ways it is a disadvantage because you are deluded into thinking that you should be able to intellectually understand emotions and unconscious stuff - and it just doesn't work that way.
Posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:38:20
In reply to Let's change the title of this thread, OK? » fallsfall, posted by partlycloudy on March 8, 2005, at 20:12:29
>Don't think that you change to change YOURSELF - it's how you react to others' performance and behaviour on the job that you can change - not the fundamental Falls behind it.
But this "fundamental Falls" has not been successful. This fundamental Falls is flawed.
Yes, I am trying to *not* do the other person's job - talk about stressful!!!
Thanks, PartlyCloudy. I can tell that you do understand.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:45:01
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on March 8, 2005, at 19:16:37
> why are you in so much trouble? Why can't you work your way to your wellness?
> why don't you figure out a way for yourself to get better?Indeed. I struggled with that for a really really really really long time. I read the treatment manuels, why wasn't I getting any better??
1) Because one needs anothers point of view / perspective sometimes.
2) Because no matter how much you know something intellectually, you don't learn it experientially unless you live through the experience.Maybe it is the same..
But maybe you had a greater desire to change?
I don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:48:55
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on March 8, 2005, at 20:19:04
Its ok. I was kind of yanking your chain (sorry). I have lived on welfare (government handouts) for most of my life. As a secondary student. As a tertiary student. On the sickness benefit. On the dole. I planned never to work. But then I dicovered something I enjoyed :-)
But I accept all those 'welfare bums' out there. Sure I do...Every little kid has a dream or two.
Something or other that they want to grow up to be.
Somthing happened to knock that out of them.
They need to be educated.
Empowered.
To move to a more preferable state of being
;-)
I'll get off my soap box now.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:59:09
In reply to Re: Let's change the title of this thread, OK? » partlycloudy, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 21:38:20
I don't know what to say..
Except that I do acceptance as a mindfulness (meditation) technique. Practice. Practice focusing the mind. In theory it might help me ruminate less too. Be able to direct my attention more. To be able to say 'that is okay' and put it away. To accept something. I don't know. It isn't something that you just do once and it is done. It is something that you have to do over and over again. Each time you find yourself fighting.
I don't know.
I am no expert on acceptance or on meditation.
But maybe it would help to be able to accept that other people have different standards in their work and that that is okay. And also that you can just leave their job to them (whether or not they are doing it up to your standard) and that is okay too.
It is a journey.
I don't have any magic answer for you.
Baby teny tiny steps are fine.
Really.
But you are okay just the way you are.
I still stand by that :-)
Posted by Aphrodite on March 9, 2005, at 13:16:55
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
I really can't add much but my support. It's obvious that your very insightful mind has taken a lot of time to try to come to some peace about this issue. I hate lose/lose situations, and most of all, I would hate anything guilt-induced by expectations, real or inferred, from others or yourself to cause you to have a depressive episode.
Let us know how the voc rehab visit goes. Perhaps you're sorting all this out for fear of their assessment. Evaluation can cause such anxiety.
Hugs if OK.
Posted by pinkeye on March 9, 2005, at 15:12:16
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on March 8, 2005, at 23:45:01
I agree with you. Sometimes it just is beyond our grasp to figure out a better life for us. We need some one else who is an expert at this to figure it out for us.
I did have a great desire to change. Mainly because I realized I was suffering so much, and needed to change and help myself. Finally we are the ones who have to help ourselves.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2005, at 21:46:51
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » pinkeye, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 20:11:26
> Perhaps if I decide that I *can't* work, that would require me to admit that I am not a "capable" person. I'm just not ready to give up on that yet. But the road to being "capable" seems impossibly hard.
Forgive me if this is addressed in a later post by someone. But what struck me in the above sentence is "capable" for what? "Capable" is a very broad term. You are capable of feeding yourself, raising children, providing amazing support, working hard to understand yourself and grow...and so many more things. I know that many many people define themselves by their jobs or careers. But is really only one narrow aspect.
You, falls, are very very capable.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 9, 2005, at 22:10:50
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
>
> I don't understand how we can both be accepted as we are right now, and still have goals to change. If we have goals to change, doesn't that mean that we aren't acceptable the way we are?Think of Oprah, or someone else admirable. Don't they also have goals? Aren't they also working towards personal growth and self-actualization? Aren't they also okay right now just as they are? So are we. Being acceptable doesn't preclude someone from growing and changing. And I think that viewing yourself as acceptable within the context of where you are in your own developmental process is fine--as long as you don't fault yourself by comparing your place on the journey to others. You are where you are. And that's okay.
>
> I know that my therapist would be happy if I were able to go back to work - because he knows that is what I want. But doesn't that mean that he will be unhappy if I can't go back to work?Nope. It doesn't have to be either or. We all would be happy if you get to do what you want to do. But we love you as you are, too.
Doesn't it mean that he equates success with my going back to work? He tells me that those conclusions are not valid. But I can't believe him.
Believe him. I do. He can both accept you as you are and also be a partner on your journey to self-improvement.
gg
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:55:38
In reply to You have to change to be acceptable, posted by fallsfall on March 8, 2005, at 11:59:42
I just don't know what to say. I'm ruining my health in a stressful job because I believe that I have to maintain doing what I'm doing to be acceptable. In fact I need to do it as well as I used to do it, doing it as well as I'm doing it right now isn't enough. And I get plenty of support for that position. My husband thinks I need to work harder, my bosses think I need to work harder, my therapist thinks I need to work harder. Everyone thinks that if I used to do it, I can still do it and I'm just not working hard enough.
Maybe they're right.
Moreover, the message I got my entire life is that performance counts. I was the beloved daughter because I was good and did well at school and did my chores. My brother was an example of what happened if you didn't do those things. You might still be loved in some sense but you were also despised and degraded. I had a taste of it myself when I slipped.
I don't even think it's on my therapist's list of things to do to get me to think otherwise. He himself is very performance oriented. Hence the coaching sideline.
I want to tell you that of course you don't have to change to be acceptable. You are intrinsically acceptable, loveable, and perfect just the way you are. And on some level I believe it. For you, anyway. But for me to tell you that with any real conviction, I'd have to believe it for myself. And I can't do that.
So the best I can do is to hope that all of us who feel like we need to change, or meet a certain standard, to be acceptable can learn that that isn't so. No, what I'd really like is for that to be not so.
Which it isn't of course. For you, anyway. Not for me. Thank God for Provigil.
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:56:19
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:55:38
Posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:59:51
In reply to Re: You have to change to be acceptable » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on March 10, 2005, at 0:55:38
About Provigil. A story to illustrate my point.
I was telling my therapist that I felt I was abusing Provigil even though I was taking less than the prescribed dose because I was using it to override my body's desire for rest and sleep.
He asked if it was helping me get my work done. I answered yes. Then he told me that it was doing its job and to keep taking it.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.