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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on December 17, 2004, at 11:42:05
Yesterday I was going through the list of things that I was worried about with my therapist. I have been frantic the past two days, bordering on hysteria, about my therapy space being invaded and about getting into trouble about talking about all the csa stuff. I have been also unable to edit myself very much, there is this free-flow coming from little daisy, who has completely taken over right now. So here is how it went:
T: "What are you afraid will happen?"
Me: "I will wreck our relationship by being too demanding or too weepy or too needy."
T: "what do you mean by wreck?"
Me: "You will pull away, emotionally, OR, you will be more unavailable."
T: "Do you feel me pulling away?"
Me: "No, but I feel the need to, metaphorically, cling to you desperately. And that terrifies me."
T: "Why? We've been here before."
Me: "Because this time it has been set off by something so selfish and childish. I'm worried you will get frustrated and mad that I'm perseverating on this."
T: "What would happen if I got mad?"
Me: "Hmmm...anger is scary. I'd have to figure out how to fix it, to repair things."
T: "Do you have any thoughts about how you would do that?"I went really quiet and looked at the window. He said, "It's OK. Don't go away. Tell me." So I did.
Me:"I've been having very disturbing thoughts about how much power you have over me, given the level of my attachment. There is an underlying fear that getting my needs met comes at a price and you pay this price using sexual currency. I'm don't know that I would say "no" to you. More concerning, I'm not sure that I wouldn't offer certain things in order to prevent an abandonment." And then I curled up into a tiny ball on the couch and floated completely away in my tears.
He asked more questions, trying to figure out what caused these thought. We traced it back to Thanksgiving and the rupture we suffered there. I spent nearly two weeks trying to figure out how to reconnect and get the relationship back on track. And of course, we talked about my history and how the cycle of anger/hitting/apologies/sex from a beloved parent was so confusing. I *was* paying to get my needs met.
And of course, I dropped this on him with only 15 minutes left in our session. He spent sometime reassuring me that these feelings were normal and he understood that they weren't sexual desires based on erotic feelings for him. They were more "fall back weapons" to combat anger. And he said whenever there is a deep attachment it was probable that sexual feelings would emerge at some point. And he said I was completely safe with him, that it would "never happen." I tried to tell him that I didn't mean to disrespect him or accuse him of anything. He said he totally knew that.
I was still a wreck. I told him I shouldn't have told him, that now I would have to really monitor how I was coming across and that it would change how we relate to each other. And that now I was really even more terrified that he would refer me to a female therapist. I couldn't leave, it was like a blind panic. He got me to calm down and said he would like to touch base in a couple of hours, based on the intensity of the session.
He told me on the phone that he was glad I told him, that it didn't change anything. I promised to not hurt myself and to try and sleep. And I pointed out that my ego was a little bruised by his quick, "never going to happen." He said he couldn't win in this situation...female egos! But seriously, he did provide a sense of safety again, not that I won't still worry about being too much, etc.
I haven't seen this particular issue on the board before. Has anyone else expressed this kind of concern or talked about sexual feelings/fears about their therapist? I guess I'm trying to normalize this for myself. And I KNOW that this is still all coming from little daisy.
She needs to take a nap.
Posted by Joslynn on December 17, 2004, at 12:31:58
In reply to Sex and Dependency - long, posted by Daisym on December 17, 2004, at 11:42:05
Interesting. It sounds like your therapist is not going to abandon you at all or cross a line physically, but of course there is the old you in there that is accostomed to that.
A theory: I know that a couple people on these boards did have Ts that crossed the line and got sexual. I won't comment on my opinions about those Ts, but do you think that just reading about those situations has triggered something?
I just love your therapist!
Posted by vwoolf on December 17, 2004, at 13:19:56
In reply to Sex and Dependency - long, posted by Daisym on December 17, 2004, at 11:42:05
Yes, yes and yes!
I confuse sex with liking, wanting to please, need for attachment, and I try to get there by being intellectually and sexually seductive. I have told my T about my sexual feelings towards her (and towards my male Pdoc) and we have looked at how this doesn't really mean sexual attraction at all, but a need for comfort and attachment, confused by early experiences. And like your T, she has convinced me that nothing will ever happen.
Posted by daisym on December 17, 2004, at 15:20:09
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long, posted by Joslynn on December 17, 2004, at 12:31:58
I don't know, I didn't consider that. Because those situations always seem to be about being in love witht the therapist. And I'm not. It is almost completely maternal, this attachment. And I was pretty good at staying away from those posts that triggered my fears.
But I have a good friend who was sleeping with her therapist and it ended ugly, with me taking her to the ER after a suicide attempt. This was a couple of months ago. So maybe I was set off and it stayed just out of range.
Mostly I think it is this huge retrigger about getting my needs met and that there is always a price to pay. I need therapy. I need my therapist. I need my privacy. But being fully confronted with how deep this need is makes me face the question - how far would I go to get this need met?
What doesn't help is to look up "sex and therapy" on the internet. Mostly it tells things like if you've experienced csa you are a problem for therapist because you are easily revictimized. *sigh*
Posted by daisym on December 17, 2004, at 15:28:49
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long, posted by vwoolf on December 17, 2004, at 13:19:56
I'm glad she could make you feel safe. The more I research, the more I'm finding out that this is actually a typical way to respond because as you said, it gets confused with other feelings. And it is a learned response. Which is why so many therapist do not work with people who have experienced csa. Which is why I'm so petrified. Not that he would ever, ever cross the line. But that he would not want to work with me now that these feelings have been added into the mix. This is pure gut fear. Not logical I know.
Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone.
Posted by Dinah on December 17, 2004, at 15:47:55
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long » vwoolf, posted by daisym on December 17, 2004, at 15:28:49
Perhaps it would help, in this instance, to think about the money? You are repaying him, but in a neutral coinage. Whenever I worry about being too much for my therapist, or not reciprocating in the relationship, it almost is reassuring to remember that his needs are being met financially.
I know that it's a gut deep reaction. But maybe you could quickly counter it with the things you are giving him. Cash is only one thing, I'm sure.
Posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 17:30:30
In reply to Sex and Dependency - long, posted by Daisym on December 17, 2004, at 11:42:05
(((Daisy))),
It sounds like the office invasion ripped open old and deep stuff. I'm so glad little Daisy was able to be unedited and share all she truly feels with him. However, I'm so sorry all this is pouring out now before the holidays. Maybe you need a suturing session? When I've gone spiraling down, I would go and spend a day talking about books I've read, music I like, etc. in order to bond with him but have a break. It was so helpful. Then we dove in again. It was like coming up for a respite of air while swimming.
Anyway, it is no wonder sex would come up in all of this. Afterall, folks like us with csa issues have always known it all of our lives as a negotiating tool. And when things look frightening as it did when we were children, we think back to what those in authority wanted from us and there it sits as a glaring, painful option.
I hope you can work through this without enduring much more retraumatization.
Posted by daisym on December 18, 2004, at 0:00:27
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long » daisym, posted by Dinah on December 17, 2004, at 15:47:55
Sometimes I do think about this Dinah. I tell myself I'm upholding my end of the "bargain." But mostly I think there most be a much easier way to make a buck.
Posted by daisym on December 18, 2004, at 0:29:16
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long » Daisym, posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 17:30:30
We talked about what to do with all these thoughts and feelings this afternoon. Normally when I'm triggered, I close up and fight myself and can't talk. This time I can't shut myself up. I have so much to say and I want to tell the waiting room story over and over again. It is like this huge traumatizing event that has to be relived. And the rest of the stuff is pouring out to my therapist. He said he really recommends just letting it pour out. He actually said he felt on the fence, he didn't want me in so much pain but it was there so better out than in. He also attributed the need to talk to our recently rebuilt trust.
There is fear all around this need to talk. Some of it feels like a desperate run to tell all while the window is open. Almost like there is a limited amount of time to get it all out. Mostly the fear is about how honest I'm being. All of it has a frantic feel to it, bordering on hysteria and panic.
He asked me how I was perceiving him -- and I said he felt incredibly calm. Like he wasn't pulling away, he was just riding this out with me. He asked me if this was the response I wanted, or did I think he should get stirred up too? I think I'm OK with calm, and I appreciate when he gets firm about calming down or slowing down. It makes me feel safe, like he can manage my flooding and not drown in it.
The hardest thing was when he asked me to try and concretely imagine a scenario where the possibilit of sex might exist between us. I couldn't, really. Nothing seemed probable and it was almost laughable. He was really sweet though, trying not to be rejecting and at the same time reassuring me that he was absolutely safe and he wanted me to share all my feelings with him.
The best thing was that he said he knew when I hung up I would feel alone again. And I would worry about what he was "REALLY" thinking about all of this. So he said, what he really thinks is that he is glad I feel so attached again and he is glad I'm telling him about all of this. And he is with me ("can you hear me in your head?")and available all weekend if I need him.
I hope I don't. But I'm glad to know he is there.
Posted by Poet on December 18, 2004, at 1:06:54
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long, posted by daisym on December 18, 2004, at 0:29:16
Daisy,
I may way off base, keep in mind that I still barely tell my therapist anything about what I refer to as *certain issues.* If I don't think about it, it'll go away, right? I know, wrong, but I'm not ready to open that window, but maybe you are?
To me, it's like a part of you knows you have to let this stuff go out that window (like a window of opportunity) or it might slam shut and you won't get it open again.
Try to think of your therapist as proping that window open. He won't let go. He'll hold it open as long as you need him, too. He won't let it slam shut and hurt you or make you do anything other than trust him to keep his support.
My therapist keeps telling me that I didn't get support for the things that hurt me when I was a child so I am afraid of it now. It's why I'm so afraid to let her get close to me.
Posted by messadivoce on December 18, 2004, at 1:45:04
In reply to Sex and Dependency - long, posted by Daisym on December 17, 2004, at 11:42:05
Hi Daisy,
What an interesting question. I confessed my feelings of attraction to my T after a few months and the week after that particular session I was convinced that I was going to show up to my next session and he was going to tell me that I had been referred to someone else. When I asked him about it, he told me he had absolutely no intentions of doing that.
So we waded through all of my feelings very slowly. I think that I wanted him to approve of me as a sexual being as I had been raised to be ashamed of my sexuality. I also wanted my father's love, and he became a stand-in for my dad as the transference was so thick in that room.
He made it clear that he wanted me to feel safe and that he was never going to take advantage of my feelings for him. He did try to make me talk about how it would feel if we engaged in a sexual relationship. I had a lot of trouble with that even though my feelings toward him had first surfaced as a sexual impulse.
It sounds like your T understands that it's not *just* about sex, but about power and approval. Mine did too and that helped me to talk about it. Your T sounds a lot like mine actually, from the conversation you related in your post. I'm so glad you're in a safe place to talk about this. I hope you can trust him to lead you through. He sounds like a very special man, and not at all like the people who have hurt you in the past. There ARE men who can be trusted (and believe me, that's just as much for me as it is for you).
Posted by Dinah on December 18, 2004, at 3:45:53
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long » Dinah, posted by daisym on December 18, 2004, at 0:00:27
The strangest things comfort me, Daisy. When people complain about having to pay their therapists for caring, I often think I'd never have allowed this degree of intimacy with someone I haven't paid. And I'm always superquick with the checkbook when he goes above and beyond. Perhaps I should explore this.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 18, 2004, at 21:43:29
In reply to Re: Sex and Dependency - long » daisym, posted by Dinah on December 18, 2004, at 3:45:53
Wow, Daisy, what courage it took to tell him that. I'm so glad you did. I wish you could feel less frantic and panicked about this flood right now. I think the timing stinks, with the holidays here, but I don't guess we can choose when that window may open. But I suppose in the midst of a flood or rushing river, it would be nigh impossible to feel in control. And scary to just ride it out. But you are not riding it out alone.
I can relate to the worry that you have this limited window of opportunity to get certain things out. When I had that intensely emotional session a few weeks ago, I felt like I had to keep doing that, somehow making myself get to that place each session after. And that doesn't work for me. I guess I have to be patient and let what comes come. And try to work on the defenses when the stuff is not at the surface.
So, I do think you will have another window if you need to. As many as you need to. But there's a lot of pressure that has built up behind this particular one, and I think that's why it's pouring out so fast.
((((Daisy)))) You've got plenty of life preservers in your life. Here and IRL.
gg
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