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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by pegasus on February 19, 2004, at 15:12:38
In reply to Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 13:48:00
Dinah, I don't really know what to say to your post, but I feel like I want to say something. I can tell you've struggled a lot, and have managed to create a relationship with your therapist that is valuable for you. I have incredible respect for that accomplishment.
I have no wisdom to share about when it's worth the fight. I do know, though, that when a relationship feels destructive, that's when it's not worth it. I've had the experience of realizing that the other person is not going to be able to be there in the relationship the way you need. But even then, sometimes, it seems worth holding on.
I guess what I wanted to say was that I hope someday you can have the type of helpful relationship you describe without having to fight so hard. I wish that for all my babble friends, and myself. I think the good ones don't always have to be such a struggle.
- p
Posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 15:59:29
In reply to Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 13:48:00
I can't offer much insight to your question. I can't get past what a wonderful portrait you've created of your relationship. You ought to write a column somewhere. You have such detail and insight in describing people.
You've made me think a lot about this notion of battling for relationships though. I generally give up if it's that difficult. I never thought that battling could *create* connection. Guess I don't have that much comfort with conflict.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 17:05:10
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship, posted by pegasus on February 19, 2004, at 15:12:38
The funny thing is that the struggle is somehow what makes it special. Oh, if you were to have asked me in the first five years, I would have had a completely different story to tell you.
I'm also aware that struggling for relationship with some people just wouldn't be worth it. I could struggle till my breath ran out to build a meaningful relationship with my mother or my father without any result. Apparently my therapist has figured this out because he doesn't even try to convince me. A nice dry emotionally bereft relationship works great with my mom. And my dad does best if you think of him as an overtired two year old.
I can't imagine struggling to relationship with my husband either. We're both so similar, and have such similar backgrounds and values, that our relationship seems to work better if we don't delve too deeply, but just treat each other with respect and caring.
But I think there has been something truly valuable in the struggle. I can't really begin to describe it. But it's nothing I had ever experienced before, and it's taught me something that I have since used in relationships with others. I'm not sure I'd have traded it for a smooth relationship for the world.
I guess my question isn't so much for me, although it comes up with other relationships of course. But more when I talk to others. My own experience is something I wish everyone could share. But knowing when it's worth fighting for, or if the result with any given person would be worthwhile, is that just something you have to sense during the give and take and exploratory phase of a relationship?
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 17:08:09
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship, posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 15:59:29
My ordinary move is to cut and run too. So much that my therapist actually admitted thinking of me outside session to the extent of wondering why I had decided to stay and work on it with him. And he even admits that the road was hardly smooth or without obstacles.
Hmmmm.... Maybe that's why I felt he was worth it. He is such a lousy liar and so completely tactless at times, that you just *have* to trust him. lol.
Posted by pegasus on February 19, 2004, at 18:10:56
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » pegasus, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 17:05:10
Sorry I kind of misunderstood you there. I'm glad to hear that you don't always struggle to have meaningful relationships with people.
Yeah, what you're asking is a good question. It sounds like you had a sense that this relationship was worth fighting for, since your normal MO is to cut and run. Even in the first five years, when maybe you wouldn't have known it was worth it. You did stick with it, after all. Maybe you're in a better position to answer the question than any of us. What do you think? Is it that you could tell he would stick with it?
- p
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:45:54
In reply to Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 13:48:00
My usual advice is to stick it out and work it out with your therapist. But I left mine (and you were in favor of that, if I recall) - and it was a good move. There is no one answer that will fit all.
I guess what struck me most about your post was that it sounded to me like the relationship you have with your therapist is like the relationship that good married couples have. Where things aren't always good, and both people are decidedly individuals, but that they are committed to working out the differences that come up. I would have really liked to have the kind of security you have with your therapist with my husband.
I think that one thing that led me to decide to leave my old therapist was that it felt like I was doing all the work - both mine and hers. That's what happened in my marriage, too. Hmmm.
Hmmm........
Posted by rs on February 19, 2004, at 20:01:42
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:45:54
Hi Fallsfall. Yes you told me many times to fight it out with therapist and would work out. thanks for that and the advice.
He is wonderful. Yes scared that he will hurt in someway due to the lost of old one. This T wants to help so much and doing everthing possible. He spoke right up to insurance company in behalf.
Most important is that he believes and is there. Had to call yesterday and he called back with in an hour. He gets it.
But yes it was worth working on this relationship. Yes there will be times that may come when problems arouse due to many different thoughts and feelings.
Again Fallsfall thanks for being there when things were difficult. Many hugs and best to you. Another thing my old T never spoke in behalf with insurance company. This one is so much better in many ways. He shares things about himself as other on knew nothing about him. How lucky am and never told him that. Will tell him that tomorrow and mean it.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:22:09
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » Dinah, posted by pegasus on February 19, 2004, at 18:10:56
Posted by karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 20:27:54
In reply to Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 13:48:00
Heck yeah it's worth it. At least in my case.
Bubba and I fight. And sometimes we fight often. Once he even mentioned that we were fighting like a married couple. I told him it's because I love to argue.
And we have some things in common, as well as differences. He's emotional, to the point of getting teary-eyed. I'm not! He's rational and I'm not. He's stable and I'm impulsive (Yes, even during sessions). But, we have similarities as well. We're both rational. We're both caring. And we're both just beautiful people, on the inside I mean, even though I like to assume I'm somewhat attractive and so is he.
And sure, we've both made mistakes. And we're both quick to point these mistakes out to eachother. Maybe I'm a bit quicker than he is, but does that really matter?
The important thing is the progress I've made with him. I've been seeing him as long as my former therapist and I've improved SO much. Sure, I've had my "down time" and I've had some really rough times too, but the progress I've made far outweighs any misunderstandings either of us may have about the other. I readily assume he has some countertransference issues, but I also have some transference issues with him. He's raised several "red flags" of therapy, and I'mnot always willing to point them out, as I know I don't want them to change. I assume that's part of my problem as well as his. But, that isn't the issue at hand.
We both make mistakes. And we argue. And we fight. And we have miscommunications and misunderstandings. But, through these I have learned so much. And I'm willing to take the good with the bad.
I like to think he's reshaping me in some way. And he is. But, I'm reshaping myself as well. He's guiding me and I'm trying to learn to follow his lead, as I hate not having control. But, the thought of me losing Bubba scares me to death. Not because I thik he's my lover, or my father, but because he HAS changed me. And he's taught me. And I have so much more to learn and some much more definition left to be sculpted. I like to believe I'm the piece of clay and he's the artist. Only this piece of clay has a mind of it's own. And sometimes the clay won't cooperate. And sometimes I just melt when he touches me (figuratively of course). Other times I willingly sculpt myself. Then there are the times when this piece of clay has a rock in it and he has to carefully remove the rock. I couldn't imagine another artist trying to mold me. What if I had Van Gogh instead of Monet (yes, I know they are painters and not sculptors, but I'm not familiar with many sculptors).... Could I live my world in a Starry Night instead of Water Lilies? I've lived the night long enough, and Bubba can help make me see the lilies instead.
I think it has a lot to do with faith in another human being. And it has even more to do with the relationship you have. Bubba wants to see me better even more than I want to be better myself. That's what gives me hope that I will one day, finaly be BETTER, FIXED, DONE....
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:28:20
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:45:54
Hmmm... I do like that about him. He *is* willing to do his share of the work.
Funny you should say that. I was thinking about this in relationship to old fashioned arranged marriages. You might not have chosen each other if you had to pick, but in the best of circumstances you kept at it until you had built a life and a relationship together.
But this wasn't a marriage, and I could have left. There was no commitment at first, there probably is now. Is it as simple as he just had some quality that I needed? And on his side, he just doesn't terminate clients? Maybe the fact that he doesn't terminate clients *was* the quality I needed. :)
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:37:34
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » Dinah, posted by karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 20:27:54
I love your metaphor (or simile, or whatever it is - English being way too far behind me) of the sculptor and the clay. That's another thing he's really good at. Motivating me to willingly sculpt myself. Because *no one* sculpts this clay!!! Nuh uh! This clay has to be convinced, coaxed, supported, and teased into self molding. (grin) Don't you envy my therapist his job?
> Bubba wants to see me better even more than I want to be better myself. That's what gives me hope that I will one day, finaly be BETTER, FIXED, DONE....
But here we part therapeutic relationships. :) My therapist does *not* want to see me better even more than I want to be better myself. He'd fold his arms and say that that isn't what he would have wished for me but it was my life, and my choices, and I could do with it as I chose. And he'd be completely unperturbed by whatever that may be. Sigh.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:38:00
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:37:34
Posted by karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 22:44:24
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:37:34
*one thing, you said perturbed!!! I love that word!!! :)
And I do think your therapist wants to see you "better" If he didn't would he continue working with you? He can't be that stretched for cash to just keep clients he doesn't think he can help...
Bubba said something that upset me and I feel even worse for letting it go... He said, "There are some clients my coworkers see that have been here for 7 years." He was saying it in a demeaning tone.... I wanted to slap him, but if I did not only would I be in trouble, but it would give away my "babble" secret. And I can't have him knowing what I really feel, as I post it here all the time.. I just don't trust him.. He's male you know. You can't really trust them as far as you can throw him. Oh, but what fun I'd have trying to throw him..
Posted by fallsfall on February 20, 2004, at 6:24:14
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » fallsfall, posted by rs on February 19, 2004, at 20:01:42
RS,
I'm so glad it is working out - and he called you right back this time! That is so wonderful. I love it when therapy relationships actually work!
Posted by crushedout on October 3, 2004, at 22:57:51
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:45:54
Shoot, I have no idea how to know if I'm doing all the work. :( Lately it kinda feels like I am.
Posted by fallsfall on October 4, 2004, at 10:30:59
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on October 3, 2004, at 22:57:51
What was it like when I was "doing all the work"? I guess for me it felt like I was coming up with all of the topics (and this is OK), and trying to explain everything to her, and figuring out what was important. There was a sense that I was pushing things onto her - where usually there is a sense that the therapist is "receiving", or even pulling things from the patient. She was not adding insights for me, I was having insights, but it was all what I was thinking and saying that brought them about. She was listening and sometimes asking questions, but the questions that she asked didn't help me move further in the process. Like she was trailing behind me, rather than walking beside me or leading me. I had the sense that one has when walking with a 2 year old, and I wanted to get there faster but my therapist wanted to look around and get distracted ("OK, yes that is interesting, but we need to keep moving now or we'll never get there").
It is kind of hard to describe. What is going on with you?
Posted by crushedout on October 4, 2004, at 11:43:13
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on October 4, 2004, at 10:30:59
I've been really struggling lately. And it's not completely about my T but it has something to do with her and my feelings about her -- that's all mixed in. But mostly, I just don't feel sure that she's really a help to me right now. And I'm not sure that she's not a help -- I'm just not sure that she is. I think at least she's not actively making things worse so that's good.I just don't know. And I also don't feel like I can leave her and start over with someone else. That feels impossible to me, as it always has.
> What was it like when I was "doing all the work"? I guess for me it felt like I was coming up with all of the topics (and this is OK), and trying to explain everything to her, and figuring out what was important. There was a sense that I was pushing things onto her - where usually there is a sense that the therapist is "receiving", or even pulling things from the patient. She was not adding insights for me, I was having insights, but it was all what I was thinking and saying that brought them about. She was listening and sometimes asking questions, but the questions that she asked didn't help me move further in the process. Like she was trailing behind me, rather than walking beside me or leading me. I had the sense that one has when walking with a 2 year old, and I wanted to get there faster but my therapist wanted to look around and get distracted ("OK, yes that is interesting, but we need to keep moving now or we'll never get there").
>
> It is kind of hard to describe. What is going on with you?
Posted by Annierose on October 4, 2004, at 16:05:38
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on October 4, 2004, at 10:30:59
fallsfall -
I know exactly what you are describing! I had one of those sessions today, where I am pulling her along side of me. And so many times, she asked questions I just had answered! Very frustrating. I wanted, and should have asked, "didn't you just hear me?"
Posted by fallsfall on October 5, 2004, at 12:23:50
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on October 4, 2004, at 11:43:13
"And I also don't feel like I can leave her and start over with someone else. That feels impossible to me, as it always has."
I understand this feeling (completely). But I also know that it is not true that you couldn't leave her and start over.
If you pretended for a minute that you *could* leave her and see someone else, how would that effect your thinking? If you lived in a magical world where you had one "get out of therapy painlessly" card... You would still have to get to know another therapist, but if you *could* imagine leaving her and not having that be intolerably painful...
If you stay, it needs to be because she is helping you - not because you can't imagine leaving.
Crushed, I've been there. I was able to leave a therapist who I couldn't live without. And it was a good move for me. It *IS* possible. (And it *was* painful for me, I'm not trying to tell you that it wouldn't be hard. I just want you to try to see past the "I can't see a different therapist because I can't leave my current one. So it doesn't matter if my current therapist is helping me because I don't have a choice since I can't leave.")
(((((Crushed)))))
Posted by crushedout on October 5, 2004, at 23:23:19
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on October 5, 2004, at 12:23:50
I totally hear ya, falls. I know I *could* leave -- it just feels like I can't, in addition to me not knowing whether it's the right thing, or how to figure that out. And that feeling is a problem -- I think you're right, I should try to figure out how to get past. But I'm not sure how. And I'm kind of in crisis right now which makes it harder.Today's session was okay. I'm not sure how much it helped.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2007, at 21:10:26
In reply to Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 13:48:00
By yourself, I mean.
Read them and see how you feel about them today.
I smile when I read this. Our relationship changed so much since I wrote this, with Katrina as the obvious catalyst.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2007, at 21:17:56
In reply to Re: Fighting to relationship, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:37:34
> But here we part therapeutic relationships. :) My therapist does *not* want to see me better even more than I want to be better myself. He'd fold his arms and say that that isn't what he would have wished for me but it was my life, and my choices, and I could do with it as I chose. And he'd be completely unperturbed by whatever that may be. Sigh.
I remember how he used to do that!
He hardly ever does it any more. I think at some point I told him I didn't like it.
And I think he is more invested in my results now. He's more likely to try to push me to do what he thinks is best for me.
Posted by phazedout on April 29, 2007, at 17:41:45
In reply to Do you ever go back and read your favorite posts?, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2007, at 21:10:26
funny you posted that, I've returned here after a couple of years off to see just what I did post lol, isn't that strange - is it the water, the weather, global warming or just coincidence?
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2007, at 8:41:52
In reply to Re: Do you ever go back and read your favorite posts?, posted by phazedout on April 29, 2007, at 17:41:45
:)
And what did you think?
I really can't even recognize myself. The narrative I've developed about who I am is so different now from what it was.
Posted by Tabitha on February 26, 2016, at 0:45:31
In reply to Re: Do you ever go back and read your favorite pos » phazedout, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2007, at 8:41:52
This is the end of the thread.
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