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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Aphrodite on September 18, 2004, at 1:32:59
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on September 18, 2004, at 0:46:17
Yes, giving away my spot cut like a knife, but I deserved it. I've quit 3 times and say that I want to quit more times than I can remember. Not counting on me coming back is a sound business decision on his part as I was sitting on a coveted time slot. Don't blame him a bit.
It will be hard to admit the weakness of not being able to get through one teeny little week, but I plan to do so. I don't have much to lose. And then I will be embarrassed. And then I will worry that I've made him feel bad about his vacation. And then I will build up the defenses again. And then he will have to tear them all down again. And then the little girl will be honest once more. And then I will feel guilty . . . OK, you know the cycle.
So, what did you do to get through the vacation? I plan to catch up on reading and shop at the bookstore. Luckily, my favorite bookstore is next to the best shoe store in the tri county area.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2004, at 8:38:10
In reply to Re: my ego state war » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on September 18, 2004, at 1:32:59
Well, of *course* you don't blame him a bit for doing the sensible business thing. :) But do *you*? I've found it's less trouble for me if I admit being irrationally angry to my therapist, even if I preface it with lots of "I of course understand rationally why you ####, but I still find myself feeling xxxx" And my therapist has found it's less trouble for him if he doesn't answer by justifying his actions logically, but by addressing the feelings of xxxx.
Unless of course, you genuinely don't feel any anger at any level.
I think that's a great idea about asking him to share. I left that out of my account, but once my therapist either intuits or is told that a particular session is devoted to bonding, that usually happens. I open an innocuous topic and he also discloses a bit. My therapist has rather firm boundaries but isn't opposed to innocuous self disclosure. And if he tries to make a point or two along the way, I'm tolerant. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 22:26:01
In reply to Re: my ego state war » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 18, 2004, at 1:12:52
Thank you both so much for your understanding and support. It took a little while to sink in, but it did, finally- now I feel much better. The weekends, too, give me a little time off from the incredible intensity of daily analysis, and that helps, too. I didn't have nearly as interesting a weekend as you did, though, Daisy! My analyst works with an art therapist quite a lot with patients who have csa and complex PTSD- and dissociation. He wants me to do it, too, only he feels that we need a more steady secure attachment first- sometimes it's really solid, but often it isn't. But, anyway, thanks an awful lot, guys!
Posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 11:50:43
In reply to Daisy and Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 22:26:01
Thank you for *your* support!
I have complex PTSD and not much in the way of literal dissociation with its loss of time, etc., but as you know I have the conflicting ego states that I am fully aware of. They have such different goals, thoughts, beliefs, etc. that I feel like I swim in chaos.
I am interested in what you said about secure attachments. I struggle with this as well. Only the very young part of me has the ability (or even the desire) to attach. The withdrawn young teenager is the most hurt, and she can't even speak. If you're willing to discuss it, what part of you lacks attachment? Do you think it's important for your adult part to attach, or do you think the healing needs to be that the younger parts have someone secure and safe and to be "reparented" in essence?
I think I have a huge problem trusting anyone, and it's particularly frightening to trust someone who knows so much about you and could hurt you so much.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Pfinstegg, posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 11:50:43
As it happened, this was the main topic of my session today! I am struggling with exactly the same things you are- no lost time, and nothing unusual apparent to onlookers- just an *infant*or very young child up to about 3, and a *girl* from about 5 to 11, The adolescent and adult are pretty much the same. The part that has a VERY difficult time trusting or feeling any attachment is the *girl*. She was the one who was abused, physically and sexually. My analyst has such an encouraging view of the whole question of attachment. He said that he felt that *I* (the adult) have a lot of trust and attachment, but, right now, because of the work we are doing, the *girl* is much more present. When I bemoaned how detached and lonely *she* feels, he said it was more than understandable. *She* is trying to trust him, but feels that, if she really lets her guard down, he might turn on her and molest or rape her. He also said, "look how much pain she is willing to go through to try to get attached." I said that it seemed like "everyone else" (i.e. Babblers) have secure attachments, and I feel so bad to have such a struggle with it. He said he thought that genuine attachment, of all the parts, is a RESULT of therapy- it's not something a person with an ego state disorder is able to have at the beginning. What he said really seemed so right to me. What do you think?
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:26:18
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
I think it makes perfect sense. When I say I'm securely attached (relatively at least) recall that I've been in therapy nine years, and had intense attachment from my emotional self, no attachment from my rational self, and no trust from either side for at least five of those years.
The really secure trusting attachment is so new that you can probably see the difference between when we started conversing and now. And it's *still* only on the part of my emotional self. My rational self now has a fair but not enormous degree of trust but not much attachment.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:46:53
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:26:18
What you just wrote is the best news in the world- terrific (and so well-earned) for you, and so encouraging for people like me. I have noticed a gradual, but enormous change in how you post about your therapy- with especially big changes in the last six months or so. I didn't want to say so, because I thought your thoroughbred horse might rear up and insist that it wasn't true!
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 12:52:15
In reply to Re: Dinah's (earned secure) attachment » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:46:53
Naw, it's true. And I sort of like that it's noticeable.
And boy did I work hard to earn it!! (So did he of course.)
Posted by gardenergirl on September 20, 2004, at 13:27:27
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
I just wanted to pop in and say what your analyst said about attachments forming via therapy makes a great deal of sense to me. I think it's part of the corrective emotional experience.
I think my attachment to my T is the first truly secure one I've had. Or perhaps the most important...others have been secure but less significant people in my life? Hmmm need to think about this some more...
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 14:43:11
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 12:20:28
Have your T send me a bill! That really helped. At this point in my therapy, it doesn't seem possible for any of "us" to be attached, but I have to give myself credit for trying. The problem is that after each session, there is some sort of let down because not all the parts can have their say, so part of me always leaves disappointed. And then there is this cynical adult who self-berates after each session so the younger parts get abused all over again. My T is doing some great visualizations to help protect the younger parts from the adult me in which he is there to protect and advocate for the little girl.
I think he enjoys it a bit too much since he's not very fond of my cynical, critical side and likes the excuse to fight with her;)
Sometimes I hesitate as I write about this because it all sounds so *strange*. But it certainly gives a sound reason and a vocabulary to what was once just overwhelming turmoil in my head as all the sides clammored to get their way.
Still, I am easily discouraged, and my T will be gone next week. Waaaahhhh!!!!
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 16:44:46
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Pfinstegg, posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 14:43:11
Nothing you have said sounds strange to me! I've also been learning that part of having an ego state disorder is that the different parts of us really do resent the other parts, and get very angry if they don't have as much time with the T as they want, or if they feel that their feelings aren't validated. The adult me sometimes feels that the younger parts are ruining her life. One time I practically shouted at my T, "get RID of her!" (meaning the abused girl). My T constantly reminds me to be kind to the younger parts- to try to nurture them and understand their pain and terror. When I remember to do that, I do feel quite a bit calmer. Strangely, even after all this time, it's not at all natural or automatic to do that.
One thing continues to amaze me: how do these Ts DO it? It must be so hard for them to know who is talking at a given moment, and each part needs something different said to her. I really admire their tremendous patience, and the skills they have.
Posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 20:21:29
In reply to Re: Daisy and Aphrodite » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 16:44:46
I came home to the rest of this thread and it makes me weep. Today was just so awful. Last week my 12 year old self really tested my therapist and he past with flying colors for her. But the adult is angry about the risk she took in therapy...what if he had gotten angry or upset about what she was asking? I really did feel like she put him on the spot.
So I was depressed last night. I woke up flat, no energy. And as I got closer to therapy today, I got more anxious and more frightened about what he would say about last Thursday. I took in some of my artwork so we would at least have that to talk about.
He noted the anxiety the minute I walked in and we never did get to the artwork. We worked all the way around to me admitting how angry I was about the risk she took without my permission. And then it got all muddled up. He basically said it didn't feel like such a big risk to him (not the words he used) but as he talked I felt completely slapped. I don't know how to word this, it was like I was confronted with "you are just another client." I was completely crushed. He saw that I was, and we tried to talk about it the last 10 minutes. And I tried to be honest about why I felt crushed but my pride got in the way some. He tried to rephrase and argued with me that I heard something different from what he said.
But it doesn't really matter. I probably needed this wake up call anyway, in fact I started the session today with how hard it is to channel the energy to live my life. I called 15 minutes after I got home and said I was taking the rest of the week off from therapy. I needed some perspective.
I'm not sure who is upset and has severed the attachment -- the teen or the adult. Again, it doesn't matter. The reality is...I AM ONLY one of many clients and it is MORE important to me than to him. It is after all MY life.
So now, even though I feel wounded, I half hope he'll call and talk me out of canceling and half hope I don't hear from him because I don't know how stong I am. Mostly I just feel stupid for having such a strong reaction. I'm open to thinking that this might be another defense against letting the teen talk.
Again, it doesn't really matter.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 20:51:45
In reply to Severed attachment, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 20:21:29
Oh, Daisy, I've never seen you post such a hopeless message. It makes me so sad that you cancelled your sessions- could you reconsider? And you have one of the best therapists ever- surely you and he can find a good way to get reconnected. I have to admit that I didn't really understand what went wrong, exactly, but this connection is much too important to ever be severed, even for a day.
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 21:02:59
In reply to Severed attachment, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 20:21:29
A good relationship with a good person can withstand the tests and bruises. My therapist has taught me that. I may get hurt. I may get angry. But I know we'll make it through any hurt and any anger. You can too.
Posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 22:18:18
In reply to Re: Severed attachment » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 20:51:45
I'm sorry I sounded hopeless and that it was all muddled. I'm not very clear on what happened, why this feeling was triggered to strongly. I know intellectually that I am indeed, "just a client." Really, I do know that.
But somehow when I FELT that...it hurt tremendously. And I don't think it was anything he said but more the realization that I had worried about something that he hadn't given a second thought.
He called a little while ago and asked me if I would reconsider taking the week off. I said only if I could come in tomorrow to see if we could figure this out. I don't want to walk around wounded (more than usual) for two more days. (I know, no logic here - tomorrow or a week from now????) He said he doesn't want to wait a week to try to repair what happened. So I'm going in tomorrow afternoon. I still can't verbalize very well what happened. I know why I feel hurt and I recognize what the hurt is. I just don't know why I reacted this way to whatever he said.
I talked to GG, Dinah and Falls in Open. GG thinks something was triggered in the phrasing. This is entirely possible. It might also be that the adult was entirely too honest about her fears and this is the panic response. I keep trying to journal it out.
The good thing is that I did tell him on the phone that I didn't "think" cancelling was a way to punish him or make him chase me. He said he knew that. That he could feel me curling up around the hurt and away from him. But he didn't want me to pull away and pull back inside. That in relationships people sometimes hurt each other and we will just work through it.
I just hope I can talk and not cry the whole time.
Posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 22:21:28
In reply to Severed attachment, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 20:21:29
(((Daisy)))
I have no greater words of wisdom than the ones you gave me a few weeks ago when I cut my T off to see where I stood. I'm quoting you:
"You know I've been where you are so this might sound harsh but I believe it to be true. There is a part of you that is "testing" your therapist to see if you are important enough for him to "chase" you and insist that you keep going to therapy. Somewhere in there, you've been so damaged by people who were suppose to take care of you that running when they get close is an ingrained response. It is the same struggle that I have over and over..."tell me again that I NEED TO BE HERE" because it seems selfish. Plus, if there is this big need to tell something, and anxiety too, this may be masking your fear. Another way of keeping your defenses up.
You aren't a quitter. Take pride in that. It takes more guts and courage to go back in there and start again. You don't even have to apologize, just show up and go forward. "
You would have a lot of compassion for me or anyone else on the board in your shoes. You would encourage me to call him and go back. You would remind me how important I am to my T and even if you don't know it, little Daisy knows she is more than just another client.
Please call him. He will make both parts of you feel better -- he always does.
Posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 22:26:58
In reply to Not severed. Tested. Bruised maybe. » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 21:02:59
Thanks Dinah. And thanks for the support and advice in Open. He said what you said: "we need to figure out what happen so we can repair things." I just wish I could articulate better what happened. I need a video tape of the session.
(ok, icky thought. never mind).
Posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 23:21:33
In reply to Re: Severed attachment » DaisyM, posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 22:21:28
Ok, that's just low, use someone's own words against them! I didn't have to call, he called and we are going to try to sort it out. You are completely right, he works well with both sides.
I really wasn't quitting, just taking some time to try to figure this response out and truthfully, to see if I can get that protective wall back up again. It is another example of knowing one thing, understanding it really well, and yet my feelings don't match.
More important is why this was triggered so strongly. Why did I "hear" (feel) him responding to my concerns this way? I'm struggling with understanding today. It is just one big blob of emotions.
I appreciate your support, as always.
Posted by crazymaisie on September 20, 2004, at 23:56:20
In reply to Re: Severed attachment » Aphrodite, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 23:21:33
oh Daisy, my heart sank when i read your post. i'm glad he called and i'm glad you're getting a chance to work through this. i understand the difficulty of knowing you *should* feel as certain way and *actually* feeling very different. it's something i'm really working on lately, accepting how i feel with as little judgement as possible. for me the conflict between the reasonable part of me the emotional overwhelmed part of me causes so much more upset. i am learning (slowly) that i'm going to feel that way anyway, better not to beat myself up about it. i hope you can be compassionate with yourself and i really hope you resolve this soon.
be well
maisie
Posted by Aphrodite on September 21, 2004, at 5:55:39
In reply to Re: Severed attachment » Aphrodite, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 23:21:33
GG pointed out to me that it's so easy to see and take care of others in ways we don't do so for ourselves, so I thought I'd point out an example of your kind words;) You always say the right things to me! I haven't recovered from my recent time away from T, and I just didn't want you to have to experience that kind of setback. I'm so, so glad he called, and that you will return. I'm anxious to know how it goes.
Posted by antigua on September 21, 2004, at 7:17:18
In reply to Re: Severed attachment » DaisyM, posted by Aphrodite on September 21, 2004, at 5:55:39
Posted by DaisyM on September 21, 2004, at 23:29:13
In reply to Are you better today Daisy? (nm), posted by antigua on September 21, 2004, at 7:17:18
First let me say "thank you!" to you guys for all the support and encouragement last night, both here and in Open. It is another one of those times I thought, "what do people do who can't log on and find friends and support? Because who in IRL do you tell this stuff to?"
I obsessed all night and this morning trying to pinpoint what happened for me. I wrote pages and pages in my journal and sent long emails. I guess what I settled on was that I was overreacting but I just didn't understand myself at all.
When I went in, he jumped right in with "I know this is hard for you. You are so use to figuring it all out on your own but I want us to sort it through together." I said I didn't know whether I wanted him to go first or me, because I wasn't sure I could finish sentences at the moment. So he went back through what he remembered we were talking about and what I told him on the phone last night. He said he thought I felt like he didn't think our session last Thursday was a big deal. And he said he understood why I would feel hurt about that. But that he did think it was a big deal, etc. etc. I think what we also figured out was that some parts of me want to feel special to him, to know that he would save them. And other parts of me are terrified to want that. It is all very complicated and I'm having a really hard time understanding why I'm reacting so strongly. I said it last night...I KNOW I'm "only" a client. This isn't a crushing realization.
The hardest question he asked me was "what did you feel like you were before you felt like just a client?" I couldn't answer that. I told him I didn't think I had any fantasies about him, like him saving me or making it all magically better. He said, very gently, "Maybe the younger parts of you do?" I'll have to think about that, because I'm not consciously aware that they do.
He gave me the speech about how the therapeutic relationship is a strange one, consigned by rules and boundaries, but that it is real. He does care and he does take me with him after sessions, and worry about me and think about how we could make progress. And that it effected him as much as me when I felt hurt. And he asked me if I could try very hard to not be cautious with him and he would do the same. That we needed to keep working on understanding what happened, and why. And that I need to try not to pull in and/or run when things get rocky because he thinks that we have a strong enough relationship to survive almost anything. He also wanted to know what I needed from him to repair things. I don't know. I feel better today, I think it is just going to take a little while for me to put this completely away. I'm open to suggestions...
Posted by crazymaisie on September 21, 2004, at 23:57:01
In reply to Re: Are you better today Daisy?, posted by DaisyM on September 21, 2004, at 23:29:13
thanks for posting an update, Daisy. i was worried for you. i'm glad you're feeling better, at least a little bit. it's great that your T is prepared to work through this, and prepared to talk about how *he* felt about it all, too. i find that helps for me in situations like this with my T. i hope you can come to a resolution within yourself and move on. hopefully it'll be one of those difficult situations which actually ends ups strengthening the bond. when is your next session?
hoping for the best for you
maisie
Posted by Aphrodite on September 22, 2004, at 8:18:32
In reply to Re: Are you better today Daisy?, posted by DaisyM on September 21, 2004, at 23:29:13
I have an assignment from my T about how therapy would ideally go if I could conrol it. (I'm a control freak, and he's trying to get me to stop quitting every time I get upset:)) I was thinking that the wounded parts of me that *need* therapy are very young and primitive. Children need rituals, so I thought I would tell him that I need to have opening and closing rituals in sessions and consistent meeting times as much as possible. I want my opening ritual to be a relaxation method because I'm always anxious and my closing ritual to be a reminder to my inner child that he cares, he won't leave, it's not too much, etc. Do you have rituals with your T? Would it help for him to tell you each time that "just a client" may be OK to you, but little Daisy needs more and is more?
Just some rambling thoughts . . .
Posted by gardenergirl on September 22, 2004, at 11:08:58
In reply to suggestions » DaisyM, posted by Aphrodite on September 22, 2004, at 8:18:32
I think that is a lovely idea and a valuable insight. Please let us know how it goes if you try them.
gg
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