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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 14:20:32
i have tried to post this before, i hope i can get it going this time.
i'll try to start from the beginning. i have two seperate and distinct memories of csa, each at the hands of a different person. i grew up in a very violent household and although i can remember attacks on others, i can't remember ever being hit myself. i suppose the idea is that dissociation is what i used to cope with that violence, but even now i can't bring back the memories of it (i remember bruises and marks and some sense of the fear, but not the events themselves) with the issue of sa, i can't say whether there was ever any further occurences of it (i'm rather hoping not), but the fact of not being able to remember things i am sure happened leaves me in such doubt. there is a suspicion lurking at the back of my mind that there may be more, but i don't like to visit the back of my mind too often, it frightens me.
lately i have been having dreams in which i am the victim of sa. i try to tell myself that it is about feeling under attack as a child or something less literal. however, the sensation is disturbing and stays with me all day. i'm wondering if anyone else has had this kind of experience, memories which they can't get at, fear of the unknown, confusion over not being able to remember and a sense of doubt in myself, that i'm trying to make things up (i can't think why)
i kind of feel bad asking for advice and support because i'm sort of shy about replying to others. i do watch alot though, and i hope i'll get braver as time goes on. thanks
maisie
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 15:46:43
In reply to dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger*, posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 14:20:32
Hi Maisie - glad you posted. You're not alone in trying to cope with csa, and loss of possible memories of it. I'm one of the other people dealing with the same thing. I'm assuming that you have a therapist, and that you're working on the basics of trust and a secure attachment with him/her. I think getting a secure attachment needs to come before you try to delve into unconscious trauma memories, if there are any, because that bond will allow you to process whatever comes up in a way that is healing. Otherwise, it can be almost retraumatising.
The fact that you are having dreams of csa may mean that you are making real progress in unconsciously processing traumas which either may have happened, or which you, when you were a child, were terrified might happen. I'd suggest- don't feel you have to push yourself to retrieve any further memories. You have a lot to deal with as it is; as you deepen your sense of attachment and safety to your therapist, whatever needs to come out will do so in a setting of much greater security than you had before. Just try to trust yourself that you will do what's needed when you are ready, and don't forget to give yourself lots of credit for what you have done already!
Posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 22:12:01
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » crazymaisie, posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 15:46:43
thanks for the kind response, Pfinstegg. it's interesting what you said about building up trust with my T because we have recently set about resolving a problem of trust which was causing a problem over the last few weeks and then suddenly, last night i had another of those dreams. i tell her about them, of course, but i'm not good at discussing them in any great detail. she doesn't put me under any pressure and pretty much says what you have, that anything that needs to happen will happen at its own pace and when i'm ready for it. i'm pretty logical and rational by nature, though, so i'm finding it hard to get to grips with the whole idea of lost memories. it scared me when i realised that although i accept that i had been the victim of physical abuse as a child, that i couldn't remember a single event of it. i find thinking of the possibility of lost csa memories sends me into a panic sometimes.
thanks for sharing
maisie
Posted by daisym on September 19, 2004, at 22:38:31
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » Pfinstegg, posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 22:12:01
Maisie,
I'm sorry you are struggling with this. How long have you been in therapy?
It can take a long time. Don't be concerned about trying to force those memories back...they will come back if they need to. You always have to ask yourself what the value of recoverying those memories is. If they are forcing their way out, you have to deal with them. But to go looking in the dark spaces can cause emotional flooding and you should be with your therapist when you go this. I am surprised by what has come up for me over the past year. Building on what I already knew, I too had many dreams before I knew "the truth". It has been an exhausting struggle to put all the pieces together. Some of what I remember makes no sense...and then I get another piece of the puzzle and things come together better.
There are a variety of techniques to help draw out memories. Do you hear a younger voice inside you? Listening to what her truths are. Don't doubt yourself, just try to accept that you don't know everything yet. Looking at pictures can also help. Again, having a trusted therapist to process this with is really important. You also should be prepared for on-again/off-again crisis stage...feeling like your world is falling apart and you don't know who you are anymore. YOu might have heard it gets worse before it gets better...there is truth in that statement. BUT, getting through it is important.
We help each other a lot here. Don't hesitate to ask. Really. If you like to write, I recommend journaling your dreams. There are also workbooks you can use with your therapy.
I don't know if I helped answer your questions at all. But ask more if you want and I'll try to help.
Daisy
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 23:06:36
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » Pfinstegg, posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 22:12:01
I was also extremely frightened of remembering things I didn't already know. Like you, I could accept that I was abused, but I did NOT want to recover any horrible lost memories. This has changed quite a bit over 20 months of therapy. I've learned, that, when I least expect it (but when I guess I'm ready enough), the memories just sometimes pour out, without my even knowing a second beforehand that they are going to. It can be hard and terrifying, and often, the small girl who is talking about these things doesn't distinguish well between her father and the therapist, which strains the attachment we are working hard to achieve. But, after it's *out*, we have a chance to work on it, and I gradually start to feel a little better each time. It is very hard, but, as my analyst says, "we are doing exactly what we need to do." That feels good!
You aren't alone in having to deal with csa, complex PTSD, or dissociation. There are a number of people posting here about just these things. We are all at slightly different stages at any given moment, but we really do help one another, I think. It's just a given that people with csa go from high to low moods very quickly- from hope to despair- from frustration to joy over even a small therapy accomplishment. There is always another person here who can show you the way a little when you don't feel you can find it yourself. Someone will post something about what they have done, or asked for, in therapy, and someone else thinks, "good idea- I think I'll try that!" It's wonderful, because it puts an end to the secrecy and isolation most of have had to live with. You know, you just can't go out with a friend and bring any of this up!
Posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 23:22:15
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger*, posted by daisym on September 19, 2004, at 22:38:31
hi Daisy,
thanks for your response and your kind words. i'm glad you responded particularly because it gives me the chance to thank you for always being so open and honest on this board about your struggle. you strike me as very brave in the face of such great difficulties.
i'm trying not to push myself into doing anything i'm not ready for. my T advises against this, too, but is open to dealing with whatever i feel i am ready for. i'm a stay-at-home-mom with two small kids (a son of 5 and a daughter of 1) so i'm also aware of the kind of distress opening up all these wounds may cause and the effect it might have on my children. i went into therapy 7 months ago with a bad depression and i still worry about what my state at that time did to the children, particularly my son. however, i am lucky to have a very very supportive and loving and understanding and strong husband to keep our family moving in the right direction.
i wrote down last night's dream as soon as i woke up, detailing as much as i could of it. of course, i knew i had lost some of it just trying to find a pen. it was useful, though, because even when i read it again this evening there were certain things i had already forgotten. i'll certainly keep trying to do that. i would love to have pictures of myself as a child, but unfortunately i don't have any contact with my family anymore and in any case my parents had a fire in their house a few years ago in which i suspect that any photographs were destroyed. i'm not in a position to ask anyway.
can you tell me more about the therapy workbooks you referred to? i would be interested in finding out about them.
good luck with your journey and thanks again
maisie
Posted by crazymaisie on September 20, 2004, at 0:50:34
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » crazymaisie, posted by Pfinstegg on September 19, 2004, at 23:06:36
thanks again, Pfinstegg. it's very encouraging to hear from those going through this that it is actually helpful to deal with it and that it does get better. as i said before, i'm trying not to force anything, but to take it as it comes. that's hard, too, not having control over it. i'm glad though, that you see progress for you and that it's getting better for you as you process your experience.
i can identify all too well with the extreme mood swings - thanks for sharing that. but most of all, it's good to hear that i'm not alone in forgetting things, or not allowing myself to remember. logically i get that it has been a coping mechanism, but i still find it hard to fully understand how it could be that i don't remember.
thanks again
i forgot to say in the first post that i'm sorry you're having to deal with all that and i wish you well with your challenges.maisie
Posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 11:27:43
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » daisym, posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 23:22:15
Maisie,
(I love Maisie books, by the way!)
The two work books we are using are, "The Courage to Heal" and "At a Journal Workshop".
As you can probably tell, the first one is specific to csa, the second is more about access your unconscious and creativity, but it has yielded some power insights. Not all of my issues are directly about the csa memories, but more around how I cope with life because of what happened then. Specifically, my husband's illnesses and his poor attitude are a real challenge for me because I can't "fix" them and I feel very responsible for his happiness. I'm glad you have a supportive spouse, that can be essential at times. Did he know about your childhood before you got married? And what does he think of your therapy process now?
Since I'm such an information hound (my therapist actually called me that last week)! I'll share two other books that helped me deal with some of this dependency conflict, besides "In Session" which is mentioned here often. I like "The Intimate Hour" a lot...there is a great discussion about what place real love has in therapy...not sexual love, but the love that grows out of intimacy. Another book I liked was "The Impossibility of Sex" because I like case stories. I've recommended others too.
As far as harm to your kids, I worry about this too. Especially since I have a son who seems to literally be empathic to me. If I'm struggling, he is more anxious. When I'm having a good week, so is he. And I think I'm darn good at hiding from the world how I'm feeling. I make more cookies, the house is cleaner when I'm anxious. I work at home more when I'm depressed. All of that is actually good for my kids. They make me feel better. They embody hope for me. I bring this concern into therapy often. My therapist is a practical guy. He tells me that we all screw up our kids one way or another. If they end up in therapy at 40 talking about you...that is just the way of the world. I usually wail at this point that I want them to talk about THEIR DAD! He always laughs.
It is my belief that if you love your kids as hard as you can, hug them often, don't intentionally hurt them, give them good food, good books and a family that eats together, they will be OK. Remember you just have to be "good enough" and you aren't doing it alone. They get love and support from their dad and from others in the world. Kids also learn by watching. And they are watching you take care of yourself.
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 11:51:29
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger*, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 11:27:43
I'm sure we all have our favorites. And I've suggested to Dr. Bob that he link "In Session" from the intro to this board. But I guess it's more personal if we recommend it to each other. Still, I think linking it from the top of the board might help more people. :)
I've got a closet shelf full of psych books that I need to categorize anyway (I keep them out of the main household library). It'd be a chance for me to reaquaint myself with old favorites. If we recommended them with brief descriptions and notations as to what theoretical background they come from, it might be even more useful. For example, as chock full of great information a book written from a traditional analytic position may be, my eyes tend to glaze over from page 1. It's like the Trigonometry of psych approaches. While Kottler is more like the Algebra of psych approaches and I can understand his books better.
Maybe when we all finish the thread, along with feedback as we read each others' recommendations, Dr. Bob could even link it from the tips page or something.
All mighty ambitious for someone who's marginally suicidal right now. But that's how I tend to deal with those feelings. Get really really involved in something else.
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 11:54:32
In reply to Re: We ought to do a therapy book thread, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 11:51:29
And I'd *love* to get the author as a guest expert, but I don't know how to go about finding her. She used to post on Behavior Online, but that was a while back.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Dr. Bob, if we could figure it out, would that be ok with you?
Posted by Aphrodite on September 20, 2004, at 11:56:22
In reply to Re: We ought to do a therapy book thread, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 11:51:29
Posted by crazymaisie on September 20, 2004, at 12:52:42
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger*, posted by DaisyM on September 20, 2004, at 11:27:43
hi Daisy,
thanks for those recommendations. i have read in session and found very interesting. i love case studies, too. have you read "Love's Executioner" (hope those double double quotes work) i really enjoyed that book. i'll definitely look into those workbooks, too, i think i'll bring them up with my T at some point.
i'm sorry that you don't always get as much support as you deserve. that must make this process all the more difficult for you. i am so very lucky with my husband. to answer your questions he did know a little about my childhood before we got married but it's not something i have allowed myself to explore with anyone until now. he is immensely supportive of therapy. whenever i go through an i'm-quitting-this-is-stupid-and-it-doesn't-help-it-only-hurts phase about therapy he always reminds me how much it has helped our family and our marriage to do this work and how grateful he is to me to put myself through it, so to speak. of course, i feel i'm the one who should be grateful, especially because he dealt with my depression so well. he managed to keep the children on track and do the day job and encourage me all after we moved miles away from any family or support for him and bearing in mind that he is only 26 (even younger than i am!)
i loved what your therapist said about screwing up kids. it is always helpful to remember that there's no 'perfect' when it comes to parenting. it can be hard, though, to remember that you can only do your best when it comes to something so important. and i, too, find they fill me with such hope and courage in some of the more difficult times.
thanks again for the encouragement.
be well
maisie
Posted by crazymaisie on September 20, 2004, at 12:54:42
In reply to Re: We ought to do a therapy book thread, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 11:51:29
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 20, 2004, at 13:22:03
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » Pfinstegg, posted by crazymaisie on September 20, 2004, at 0:50:34
Thank you, Maisie. I really appreciate youe good wishes, and have the same ones for you. I really do think therapy is vital for dissociative disorders. I'm still struggling through my therapy like a crazed fish, but, when I take a longer view, I realize that it has really helped- one big marker- no more antidepressants, after about ten years of them.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 20, 2004, at 13:25:14
In reply to Re: We ought to do a therapy book thread, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 11:51:29
Dinah,
I think that's a great idea! I was just surfing Amazon for books by the man who conducted the Jung workshop...James Hollis, PhD. He's got a ton out there, and I didn't know which I would liek to start with. I just wish-listed everything for now.I'd love to contribute if we do it.
gg
Posted by antigua on September 20, 2004, at 23:00:24
In reply to dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger*, posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 14:20:32
I'm late to this thread, but I did want to offer my support. I've been right where you are now and I have gotten so much help here with csa that it has moved my therapy along considerably.
What struck me in your post was your comment about your doubt in yourself and the fear that you are making this up. I've hung onto that for many years. To a certain extent, I still do; it's my elaborate denial mechanism.
If I could bring back memories myself I would have been through with this already. But I'm not, and as someone said it's like having all these pieces but they don't come together until you find that crucial piece. Also, my T agrees that your mind only lets you when you are ready.
So I wish you luck and if you have any questions or would like to bring up certain issues, please do so. We always learn from each other.
best,
antigua
Posted by crazymaisie on September 21, 2004, at 0:19:37
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » crazymaisie, posted by antigua on September 20, 2004, at 23:00:24
antigua
thanks for taking the time to post a reply and for the support.
i think it will take quite alot for me to give up the idea that i'm making it up. even though i find that concept confusing and upsetting.
it's very comforting to find a place where this is understood and there's support and encouragement to be found.
thanks again
maisie
Posted by antigua on September 21, 2004, at 7:23:52
In reply to Re: dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger* » antigua, posted by crazymaisie on September 21, 2004, at 0:19:37
If it makes you feel any better, I still don't believe that I'm not making it up although the evidence supports otherwise.
antigua
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 21, 2004, at 8:36:07
In reply to Oops. Hopefully he'd link it better than I., posted by Dinah on September 20, 2004, at 11:54:32
Posted by vwoolf on September 21, 2004, at 11:24:53
In reply to dissociation/memories/dreams*posstrigger*, posted by crazymaisie on September 19, 2004, at 14:20:32
I'm also happening into this thread rather late. I know all about that feeling of not being sure whether you have made it all up or not. I have very clear memories, but I still often wonder whether it is real or whether for some bizarre, inexplicable reason I have invented it all. I suppose it comes from decades of denial. I am also battling with the idea that the memories only come back when you are ready. I feel guilty that I was too weak to ever admit to these memories and process them, but I think that they really do only come back when you are strong enough to face them. I wish you well in your search. Be gentle with yourself.
VW
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