![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 82 to 106 of 111. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2008, at 20:50:19
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-vic » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 24, 2008, at 23:58:13
> Yes, Lou... that's been revealed to me as well, and it's shocking, but I now believe that the "hell" of modern Christianity is a fabrication, based on a combination of twisted Scripture, and the Greek mythological afterlife. Of course, Dante, in his infamous "Inferno", added "fuel to the fire", so to speak.
>
> When the Ekklesia was overrun by the State/Church (unholy) alliance during the realm of Constantine, all manner of people became part of Christendom overnight... and they merged pagan teachings and practices with those of the Ekklesia -- special "temple" buildings, special "clergy" class, special days to worship, special rituals to perform. It was no longer seen as a family of God, but as a humann-run hierarchy... it went from organic to organized. And, the people had to be kept in line... what better way to do so than to borrow from pagan teachings about hell-fire -- to threaten the people, using fear to motivate them into obedience. What a terrible way to enter a relationship with the God who loved them enough to die for them.
>
> What sort of God would teach us to love our enemies (& who said Himself, "forgive them, for they know not what they are doing"), all the while intending to torture His own enemies for all eternity...?
>
> How could I ever love or trust a God who supposedly created some people just so He COULD torment them forever...?
>
> And how could I trust a God who wasn't powerful enough to bring people to a place where they would see the truth about Him, and have the option to choose Him?
>
> I've come to believe that God is both all-powerful, and all-loving, and so I believe He will save everyone eventually...
>
> And this concept would've shocked and perhaps threatened me just a couple of years ago...!
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[...the "hell" of modern Christianity...].
The word {hell} likely came from a European Godesss outside of the biblical revelation, named Helan. I do not know much more concerning that chioce made in 1611 for Hades being translated to "Hell" by the King James group of translators. I do not think that the translators were Jewish.
Another word that they translated as {hell} was gehenna. Gehenna in the Greek was a translation from the Hebrew of a place near Jerusalam called the vally of Hinnom, named after a person by that name. The valley was used as a huge pit to burn refuse, a garbage dump including the bodies of executed criminals. The fires burned continually.
We had a company many years ago that incinerated 24/7. The EPA finally shut it down. The valley of Hinnom, gehennna, was like that, burnning continually the refuse of the city.
The King James translators called the valley of Hinnom, gehennna, "hell." But how many people over the centuries know of that? How many know of that as they read this?
This is important IMO because the major verse for those that want to advance the doctrine of eternal torment uses "hell", but it is translated from the Greek, "gehenna" which was translated from the Hebrew, Valley of Hinnom.
The valley has become a park in Israel now. But 2000 years ago I guess it might have been one of the most frightening things to see in Israel. In one of my posts here, I described crossing the Great Gulf and I think that I mentioned a fire burnning below. I was referring to gehenna, the valley of Hinnom, translated by the King James as "hell".
Now do not get me wrong here. I believe all that is printed in the book called The Revelation about "hell" which is translated from Hades in the Greek which is tranlated from the Hebrew, sheol. But I find nothing in the bible where Hades, or Gehenna or hell actually says that people are tormented without end. But again, do not let me write here that there is not a Lake of Fire, for the book writes of such. And it says who is going to be cast into it.
In chaapter 21, we read in verse 8, [...But the fearful, and unbelieveing and the abominable and murders and sorcerers,...shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death....].
But I also read that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death, like Shadrach, and that death and hell (Hades) will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. So I believe that there will be an end to death which will also be an end to hell.
This fire that is imiged in the book has been revealed to me to be a refiner's fire, to purify. And the torment is not physical torment.In a sense, I may agree in a sense with the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, but not the same.
Do not get me wrong here, for I believe all that the bible says about the fiery judgment. But it has been revealed to me that man's way is not God's way.
For when I was on the sand by the sea, I asked the Rider who could be saved. He turned to me and said, "With man it is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
Lou
Posted by Dena on February 25, 2008, at 23:20:07
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-LkvFir » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2008, at 20:50:19
It's funny Lou, but 7 years ago, when I first met you, and had rather fundamentalist, literalist views, I was trying to understand what you were writing about. I remember asking you, and you said it was too shocking for me to comprehend. And, you were right. I had to come to this place, going through what I did (in leaving the institutional system of Christianity), in order to see outside of the "box" that I'd limited myself to. And, amazingly enough, I've come to believe what you're writing here ... and yes, it is shocking to my mind, even as my heart leaps at the new understanding. It's more "caught than taught" in my experience. But once I received it, and stopped fighting it, I came to see it everywhere, even in Scriptures that I thought I already knew and understood.
I'm grateful that God has confirmed so many things, in so many ways, including in what you're writing here... I believe He had me meet you many years ago intentionally ... and that this has all been part of His unfolding plan.
Amazing...
There is one other word that gets translated into "hell" Lou... that's Tartarus/Tartaros... the abyss. Did you want to comment on that, or save it for later?
One thing about Gehenna... it was the place of child sacrifice, in honor of Molech, who, it was believed, demanded human sacrifice to appease him. It was an abysmal, horrid practice that was done, and some Jews got caught up in it. God rebuked them harshly, telling them that it never occurred to Him to torture and kill one's own children -- and yet many believe that God will endlessly torment His own children, in "hell"... are we thus denouncing God's character, and thinking Him to be like Molech...?I no longer see God as one who demands that someone be punished, and take His "wrath". I see that we were all dying from a terminal disease -- death which results from sin. And that God, in His mercy, became the very cure that we needed, even dying so that we could live. Because HE loves us. And it's because He loves us that He's so wrathful against the sin which destroys us. I see His wrath as the most severe form of His mercy.
We're not objects of His wrath -- we're objects of His love.
Shalom, Dena
(I hope I'm not taking you off track with my comments, Lou... please continue as you feel led to do.)
Posted by Dena on February 25, 2008, at 23:29:21
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-LkvFir » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 25, 2008, at 20:50:19
One other thing I'd like to hear Lou -- do you believe, based on your experience, and what's been revealed to you, that there will be an annihilation of some..? Do you believe that some will resist Him to the point of ceasing to exist?
Or do you believe that He who leaves the 99 to find the one who is lost, will continue to seek, and will continue to refine, even in the Lake of Fire, if necessary, and then will continue to beckon, "Come", to those outside the City, until they drink of the river of life, and thus overcome...?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 27, 2008, at 13:49:40
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-LkvFir » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 25, 2008, at 23:20:07
> It's funny Lou, but 7 years ago, when I first met you, and had rather fundamentalist, literalist views, I was trying to understand what you were writing about. I remember asking you, and you said it was too shocking for me to comprehend. And, you were right. I had to come to this place, going through what I did (in leaving the institutional system of Christianity), in order to see outside of the "box" that I'd limited myself to. And, amazingly enough, I've come to believe what you're writing here ... and yes, it is shocking to my mind, even as my heart leaps at the new understanding. It's more "caught than taught" in my experience. But once I received it, and stopped fighting it, I came to see it everywhere, even in Scriptures that I thought I already knew and understood.
>
> I'm grateful that God has confirmed so many things, in so many ways, including in what you're writing here... I believe He had me meet you many years ago intentionally ... and that this has all been part of His unfolding plan.
>
> Amazing...
>
> There is one other word that gets translated into "hell" Lou... that's Tartarus/Tartaros... the abyss. Did you want to comment on that, or save it for later?
>
>
> One thing about Gehenna... it was the place of child sacrifice, in honor of Molech, who, it was believed, demanded human sacrifice to appease him. It was an abysmal, horrid practice that was done, and some Jews got caught up in it. God rebuked them harshly, telling them that it never occurred to Him to torture and kill one's own children -- and yet many believe that God will endlessly torment His own children, in "hell"... are we thus denouncing God's character, and thinking Him to be like Molech...?
>
> I no longer see God as one who demands that someone be punished, and take His "wrath". I see that we were all dying from a terminal disease -- death which results from sin. And that God, in His mercy, became the very cure that we needed, even dying so that we could live. Because HE loves us. And it's because He loves us that He's so wrathful against the sin which destroys us. I see His wrath as the most severe form of His mercy.
>
> We're not objects of His wrath -- we're objects of His love.
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> (I hope I'm not taking you off track with my comments, Lou... please continue as you feel led to do.)Dena,
You wrote,[...we are not objects of His wrath -- we're objects of His love...].
When I was on the sand next to the sea, the sea was troubled and dirt was being thrown up into the air. The sea was violent and the sound of the waves made great noise crashing onto the shore. Then I saw the sea turn to bodies of people, millions of them, small and great. The sea was a sea of humanity that the beast came out of. The people were in torment and out from the sea came the beast, the carnal mind, the natural man, Death.. This led me to what Isaiah said,[...the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it can not rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt...there is no peace..to the wicked...]
Then the Rider raised His hand and the sea turned to glass. There was calm and peace.The waters were still.
I said to the Rider, "What meaning is this here?"
The Rider said to me, "The Kingdom of God is peace and joy, a peace that passes all understanding. Peace I leave with you, not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. As you walk through the valley of the Shadow of Death, I will lead you beside the still waters."
Lou
Posted by Dena on February 28, 2008, at 0:30:57
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-stilwtrs » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 27, 2008, at 13:49:40
Lou -
I've been reading a lot about the Kingdom of God lately - it's in so many books I'm finding. It's what Jesus talked about more than anything else (over 100 times). He never spoke of a "personal salvation experience", or the "sinner's prayer", or of it being about "getting out of hell free". It seems to me that the modern gospel message has been trivialized, minimized, and reduced to be just about a destination in the future.
I see the Kingdom of God as being ALL-encompassing... that it's meant to permeate every aspect of life, a radical transformation of everything. That it's about abundant life starting NOW, it's about the journey with Him, now, and continuing on endlessly. That it's about this age, and the ages to come. That it's about His Kingdom and His will coming to earth NOW, as it is in heaven.
I'm reminded of Him saying to seek the Kingdom of God first, and everything else will be added to us. I'm reminded of Him saying that the one who seeks to save his own life will lose it... but the one who has lost his life for His sake will find it.
The Kingdom of God seems to me to be a mysterious and radical realm... an almost upside-down realm compared to the one we perceive around us with our five senses...
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 1, 2008, at 4:54:58
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-stilwtrs » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 28, 2008, at 0:30:57
> Lou -
>
> I've been reading a lot about the Kingdom of God lately - it's in so many books I'm finding. It's what Jesus talked about more than anything else (over 100 times). He never spoke of a "personal salvation experience", or the "sinner's prayer", or of it being about "getting out of hell free". It seems to me that the modern gospel message has been trivialized, minimized, and reduced to be just about a destination in the future.
>
> I see the Kingdom of God as being ALL-encompassing... that it's meant to permeate every aspect of life, a radical transformation of everything. That it's about abundant life starting NOW, it's about the journey with Him, now, and continuing on endlessly. That it's about this age, and the ages to come. That it's about His Kingdom and His will coming to earth NOW, as it is in heaven.
>
> I'm reminded of Him saying to seek the Kingdom of God first, and everything else will be added to us. I'm reminded of Him saying that the one who seeks to save his own life will lose it... but the one who has lost his life for His sake will find it.
>
> The Kingdom of God seems to me to be a mysterious and radical realm... an almost upside-down realm compared to the one we perceive around us with our five senses...
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[...The Kingdom of God...a jouney...perceived...].
There is great symbolism that a Jew could know that is versed in the scriptures that the Jews use concerning kingdoms. Their scriptures write about the Egyptian kingdom that held them in bondage and the Babylonian captivity. And as I read your post here, I am led to the book called Danial in the second chapter, verse 44 which reads in the King James;
[...and in the days of these kings shall the God in heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed...].
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 1, 2008, at 23:22:52
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-etnlkngdm » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 1, 2008, at 4:54:58
The rest of the verse reads, (in the NASB):
and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 2, 2008, at 21:09:07
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-stilwtrs » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 28, 2008, at 0:30:57
> Lou -
>
> I've been reading a lot about the Kingdom of God lately - it's in so many books I'm finding. It's what Jesus talked about more than anything else (over 100 times). He never spoke of a "personal salvation experience", or the "sinner's prayer", or of it being about "getting out of hell free". It seems to me that the modern gospel message has been trivialized, minimized, and reduced to be just about a destination in the future.
>
> I see the Kingdom of God as being ALL-encompassing... that it's meant to permeate every aspect of life, a radical transformation of everything. That it's about abundant life starting NOW, it's about the journey with Him, now, and continuing on endlessly. That it's about this age, and the ages to come. That it's about His Kingdom and His will coming to earth NOW, as it is in heaven.
>
> I'm reminded of Him saying to seek the Kingdom of God first, and everything else will be added to us. I'm reminded of Him saying that the one who seeks to save his own life will lose it... but the one who has lost his life for His sake will find it.
>
> The Kingdom of God seems to me to be a mysterious and radical realm... an almost upside-down realm compared to the one we perceive around us with our five senses...
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[...The Kingdom of God...mysterious...realm...]
It has been revealed to me that there is a great gulf that separates the natural man's kingdom and the spiritual man's kingdom and that the carnally minded kingdom is the kingdom of death and that the spiritually minded kingdom is the kingdom of peace and life.
It has been revealed to me that The Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom that is now within us and can be entered now and that to enter the Kingdom of God one has to be born into it. This birth is first conceived when there is a union of the spirit of God within you with the water of life, which has been revealed to me to be The Word of God.
When I was on the sand by the shore the Rider said to me, "The words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life.".
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 2, 2008, at 23:44:42
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-wdvgd » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 2, 2008, at 21:09:07
Yes, the Kingdom of God is within, and meant to be expressed through us. It's "at hand".
It's not something to be arrived-at later -- as in "getting to heaven one day".
It's NOW...!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sigismund on March 3, 2008, at 20:51:25
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-wdvgd » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 2, 2008, at 23:44:42
>Yes, the Kingdom of God is within, and meant to be expressed through us. It's "at hand".
>It's not something to be arrived-at later -- as in "getting to heaven one day".
>It's NOW...!
So, what prevents us getting/being there?
I came across this poem, by Hafiz.
It Felt LoveHow
Did the rose
Ever open its heartAnd give to the world
All its
Beauty?It felt the encouragement of light
Against its
Being,Otherwise,
We all remainToo
Frightened.
Posted by Dena on March 4, 2008, at 1:27:15
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-wdvgd, posted by Sigismund on March 3, 2008, at 20:51:25
That's beautiful, Sigismund.
Yes, we respond to the Light ... it both exposes darkness (the darkness flees in the face of Light), and beckons us to unfold, and receive.
We yield to the Light.
Thank you!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 4, 2008, at 9:19:31
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-wdvgd, posted by Sigismund on March 3, 2008, at 20:51:25
> >Yes, the Kingdom of God is within, and meant to be expressed through us. It's "at hand".
>
> >It's not something to be arrived-at later -- as in "getting to heaven one day".
>
> >It's NOW...!
>
> So, what prevents us getting/being there?
>
> I came across this poem, by Hafiz.
>
>
> It Felt Love
>
> How
> Did the rose
> Ever open its heart
>
> And give to the world
> All its
> Beauty?
>
> It felt the encouragement of light
> Against its
> Being,
>
> Otherwise,
> We all remain
>
> Too
>
> Frightened.Sigismund,
You wrote,[...what prevents us...?].
It has been revealed to me that there are many things that prevent one from entering the Kingdom of God for entering the Kingdom is by being birthed into it. When we were born of the flesh, we had no party to our birth, it was outside of our ability to be born. There was a father and a mother.
It has been revealed to me that mankind was created out of the dust of the ground and God breathed into him the breath of life which is spirit, like a seed, but that spirit did not germinate because Adam did not partake of the tree of life which would have given him conception to the God-life, but partook of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil that leads to death without the Water of life, the Word of God.
This birthing into the kingdom of God has been revealed to me to be a conceiving of God's spirit with the already spirit in man to germinate the seed of God-life, to enter the Kingdom of God.
It has been revealed to me that this birthing is like the birthing of the flesh in that we have nothing to do with it, for as our flesh father and mother caused us to be born of the flesh which leads to death from the carnal mind, our spirit father and mother causes us to be born of the spirit, which is light and eternal life.
It has been revealed to me like you have posted here about the flower. For a seed needs water and light which gives heat to germinate. This water and this light in the spiritual birth is spiritual light and spiritual water. When I studied Botany, I learned that a plant will be drawn to the light and grow toward it and if kept in the dark without water, the seed will not germinate for there is no light for it to be drawn to.
It has been revealed to me that there is a light drawing all men to God's spirit. For as I stood on the sand next to the sea, the Rider said to me," Arise,shine; for your light has come!
And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.
For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
And deep darkness the people;
But the Lord will arise over you,
And His glory will be seen upon you."
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 5, 2008, at 8:45:21
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund's question-wtrnlght » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on March 4, 2008, at 9:19:31
> > >Yes, the Kingdom of God is within, and meant to be expressed through us. It's "at hand".
> >
> > >It's not something to be arrived-at later -- as in "getting to heaven one day".
> >
> > >It's NOW...!
> >
> > So, what prevents us getting/being there?
> >
> > I came across this poem, by Hafiz.
> >
> >
> > It Felt Love
> >
> > How
> > Did the rose
> > Ever open its heart
> >
> > And give to the world
> > All its
> > Beauty?
> >
> > It felt the encouragement of light
> > Against its
> > Being,
> >
> > Otherwise,
> > We all remain
> >
> > Too
> >
> > Frightened.
>
> Sigismund,
> You wrote,[...what prevents us...?].
> It has been revealed to me that there are many things that prevent one from entering the Kingdom of God for entering the Kingdom is by being birthed into it. When we were born of the flesh, we had no party to our birth, it was outside of our ability to be born. There was a father and a mother.
> It has been revealed to me that mankind was created out of the dust of the ground and God breathed into him the breath of life which is spirit, like a seed, but that spirit did not germinate because Adam did not partake of the tree of life which would have given him conception to the God-life, but partook of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil that leads to death without the Water of life, the Word of God.
> This birthing into the kingdom of God has been revealed to me to be a conceiving of God's spirit with the already spirit in man to germinate the seed of God-life, to enter the Kingdom of God.
> It has been revealed to me that this birthing is like the birthing of the flesh in that we have nothing to do with it, for as our flesh father and mother caused us to be born of the flesh which leads to death from the carnal mind, our spirit father and mother causes us to be born of the spirit, which is light and eternal life.
> It has been revealed to me like you have posted here about the flower. For a seed needs water and light which gives heat to germinate. This water and this light in the spiritual birth is spiritual light and spiritual water. When I studied Botany, I learned that a plant will be drawn to the light and grow toward it and if kept in the dark without water, the seed will not germinate for there is no light for it to be drawn to.
> It has been revealed to me that there is a light drawing all men to God's spirit. For as I stood on the sand next to the sea, the Rider said to me," Arise,shine; for your light has come!
> And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.
> For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
> And deep darkness the people;
> But the Lord will arise over you,
> And His glory will be seen upon you."
> Lou
>
>
Sigismund,
You wrote,[...what prevents us getting there...?(The Kingdom of God)].
It has been revealed to me that one is birthed into the Kingdom of God for it is a spiritual kingdom of light and life in contrast to the flesh kingdom of darkness and death. It has been revealed to me that partaking of the Tree of Life can impart God-life into a person and that could then be a way to enter the Kingdom of God. It has been revealed to me that the Tree of Life in the midst of the Garden was there with God in the beginning. And it has been revealed to me that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. This has been revealed to me that the Tree of Life was and is The Word of God and is God. It has been revealed to me that the Word of God washes, it is like water of the spiritual kind, like the water of life. It has been revealed to me that The Tree of Life and the Water of Life and The Word of God are interelated and that God provides the Water and the Light for All to be born of God. For it has been revealed to me that all we like sheep have gone astray and that God is the spirit of all and invites all to come into His Kingdom
But it has also been revealed to me that, like you write here, that there are those that think that they are {prevented} from partaking of the water of life. And it has been revealed to me that God is calling all to partake of the tree of life if they are thirsty for that water. It has been revealed to me that that water is the water of rightiousness and that he that thirsts for that water will be filled with God's Spirit and be born from above.
I hope that you do not get me wrong here, for it has ben revealed to me that God is the Father of the birth from above and we can not have party to that, but when one has a thirst for rightiousness, it has been revealed to me that God is birthing you into The Kingdom of God, and that the Kingdom of God is not of this world and is a kingdom of rightiousness and peace in the Spirit of God.
And when I stood on the sand by the sea, the Rider said to me, "Let not your heart be troubled, you believe in God, believe also in me. In the beginning there was the Tree of Life in the midst of the Garden. I am the Tree of Life. I am the Vine. Abide in me, and I in you and you shall overcome and eat of The Tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 5, 2008, at 14:34:06
In reply to Lou's reply to Sigismund's question-wtrnlght » Sigismund, posted by Lou Pilder on March 4, 2008, at 9:19:31
Good stuff, Lou.
Here's a question for you, that I know others might ask, because of the traditional teachings...
You say we have no part in being born, physically (it happens TO us).
So, too, you say we have no part in being born again, spiritually...
What of those who point out that we're told to come, by faith, and they would say we must "make a decision" to believe. We must choose to trust.
What would you say to those who would say that?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 5, 2008, at 17:12:59
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Sigismund's question-wtrnlght » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 5, 2008, at 14:34:06
> Good stuff, Lou.
>
> Here's a question for you, that I know others might ask, because of the traditional teachings...
>
> You say we have no part in being born, physically (it happens TO us).
>
> So, too, you say we have no part in being born again, spiritually...
>
> What of those who point out that we're told to come, by faith, and they would say we must "make a decision" to believe. We must choose to trust.
>
> What would you say to those who would say that?
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[...what of those...].
Before I can reply to that, I think that there is something that has been revealed to me that all of the biblical revelation could take on a different perspective as compared to if this revealtion to me is not included.
This revelation is made to the Jews in their scriptures and being a Jew the revealtion that I receive then comes from a Jewish perspective.
The revelation here for this discussion is that it has been revealed to me that all men were spirits before they became born of the flesh and that we were spirit beings that had fellowship with God before the foundation of the world. This then brings to me what has been revealed to me as the purpose of our birth here and I am comming to that. This then could all be tied into this discussion.
Lou
Posted by Sigismund on March 5, 2008, at 18:32:58
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Sigismund's question-wtrnlght » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 5, 2008, at 14:34:06
I doubt that it is the same thing as faith, though it might be.
What about those people who find a way to live in the present?
Posted by Dena on March 5, 2008, at 18:43:02
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Sigismund's question-wtrnlght » Dena, posted by Sigismund on March 5, 2008, at 18:32:58
> I doubt that it is the same thing as faith, though it might be.
>
> What about those people who find a way to live in the present?
>
>I'm sorry -- lots going on in my life... what's not the same as faith?
And can you rephrase your last question? I'm not sure I'm following the conversation, and can't remember what I said last!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dena on March 5, 2008, at 18:46:46
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-bfrthefondtnvthewrld » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 5, 2008, at 17:12:59
Hoo-boy, Lou, now you're messing with tradition...! ;)
You're sounding a bit like Rayww, now...!
(the LDS teaching includes a pre-existence)
Is this revelation anything like that teaching? If so, or if not, how?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sigismund on March 6, 2008, at 1:48:38
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Sigismund's question-wtrnlght » Sigismund, posted by Dena on March 5, 2008, at 18:43:02
I never had trouble imagining that the Kingdom of Heaven was spread out in front of me and that I could not see it.
I have wondered if that is the same thing as living in the present.
It sounds a little dull, living in the present does, and I wouldn't know as I'm always caught up in my thoughts, but I like the William Blake idea that if the doors of perception were cleansed then everything would be something (which, of course I forget) and holy. Since we're chatting about whatever and it seems vaguely relevant let me paste this.....
And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight,
And the lotos rose, quietly, quietly,
The surface glittered out of heart of light,
And they were behind us, reflected in the pool.
Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
(Eliot, Burnt Norton)But this is what I was after (down the page a little)......
Yet the enchantment of past and future
Woven in the weakness of the changing body,
Protects mankind from heaven and damnation
Which flesh cannot endure.
And isn't he there talking about living in the present?
Posted by Sigismund on March 6, 2008, at 1:54:05
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Sigismund's question-wtrnlght » Dena, posted by Sigismund on March 6, 2008, at 1:48:38
No wonder we're going downhill.
It is NOT 'enchantment'.
It is 'enchainment'.
'Yet the enchainment of past and future' etc etc
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 6, 2008, at 14:42:09
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-bfrthefondtnvthewrld » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 5, 2008, at 18:46:46
> Hoo-boy, Lou, now you're messing with tradition...! ;)
>
> You're sounding a bit like Rayww, now...!
>
> (the LDS teaching includes a pre-existence)
>
> Is this revelation anything like that teaching? If so, or if not, how?
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[...tradition...anything like...?]
I am not aquainted with the doctrine that the LDS has in regards to preexistence.
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 6, 2008, at 19:14:21
In reply to Info on the internet, posted by Sigismund on March 6, 2008, at 1:54:05
Well, that DOES change things a bit, no...? ;)
Tell me, Sigimund -- what does that poem speak to you?
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 6, 2008, at 20:32:31
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-wdvgd » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 2, 2008, at 23:44:42
> Yes, the Kingdom of God is within, and meant to be expressed through us. It's "at hand".
>
> It's not something to be arrived-at later -- as in "getting to heaven one day".
>
> It's NOW...!
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[..the Kingdom of God... is.. at hand...].
Yes , I believe that it is, for it has been revealed to me that I was once in the kingdom of heaven before I was born on the earth and that I will return there.
I remember the green valleys and the still, clear waters. And I remember the clear skies and an Almighty love. I remember the lilies of the field and the birds that filled the air with laughter and singing. And I remember that day when all the trees in the fields claped their hands. And I remember the mountain tops that broke forth through the white clouds.
The dark clouds are here now in this life. The waters are dark and rushing, there is darkness over the land. But I will return to the kingdom of heaven. I will see the clear waters. I will see the green valleys and sing and laugh with the birds in the air. I will see the lilies of the field. I will return to the Almighty love. I will return to the mountiantop and my eyes will see the comming of the glory of the lord.
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 6, 2008, at 22:21:28
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-preex » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 6, 2008, at 20:32:31
Not to be persnickety here, Lou, but are there any Scriptures to support the view that we were with God before this life?
Very curious...
Shalom, Dena
Posted by sigismund on March 7, 2008, at 4:14:11
In reply to Re: Info on the internet » Sigismund, posted by Dena on March 6, 2008, at 19:14:21
The only experience I had that involved the dissolution of past and future (if only because you could hardly remember them, or even more because you couldn't see the point), was the LSD thing.
So my feeling became that reality was amazing but somehow we manage to hide from it, we get trapped, we can't see.
Something like that.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Faith | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.