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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Miller on December 23, 2002, at 19:59:40
So, I read this booked titled "When Bad Things Happen To Good People" by Harold S. Kushner. My physical doctor recommended it when I first was diagnosed with depression. Her reason for recommending it was because she said so much of what she has tried to comfort people with (her words, phrases and cliches) really don't comfort at all.
Kushner is a Rabbi who had a son die of a very unusual disease. He watched his son die before he was even a teenager.
Wj=hat I found most interesting from this book was the fact that Kushner continues to say that he believes that God isn't the one who directs or creates bad situations. He believes that God is there to help us through them. HE is unable to stop or cure a disease or a tragedy. Kushner, at one point on his book, said that the Bible said God is there with lepers and the sick... Kushner has interpretted this to mean that God will be there to help support people in their trials, but can not solve or erase them.
The reason I decided to share this is that I have realized that God did not choose for me to have depression. In fact, I may have created it myself, for all we know. But it is some comfort to me to think HE will at least help me to hold on. Maybe HIS help will enable me the time I need to feel better?
The book is a very easy ready. If you get a chance, check it out. Maybe it can help someone else as well.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2002, at 21:19:20
In reply to Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by Miller on December 23, 2002, at 19:59:40
Miller, you're going to think I follow you around and answer your posts. :)
But I couldn't resist the chance to endorse Rabbi Kushner. There is no one whose ideas of God come closer to mine. I love all his books. Even the one book that I didn't care for and gave away, I find myself referring to in my personal theology all the time.
It's such a compassionate view of God.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 23, 2002, at 21:44:04
In reply to Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by Miller on December 23, 2002, at 19:59:40
Miller,
You wrote, [...it is comfort to think God will help...and give time to feel better...]
Miller, I have been to the depths of depression and the mountain top of ecstacy. And I found myself one day on a Road. And on that Road, I had an encounter with the Word of God. I was able to Overcome depression and addiction and The Word put in my heart the following words:
God is our refuge and strength,
A very present help in trouble.
Thearfore I will not fear,
Even though the earth be removed,
And though the mountains be carried
into the midst of the sea,
Though its waters roar and be troubled,
Though the mountians shake with its swelling
There is a river whose streams shall
make glad the City of God.
God is in the midst of her, she shall not be moved;
The Lord of Hosts is with us.
Lou
Posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 8:54:45
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Miller, posted by Lou Pilder on December 23, 2002, at 21:44:04
Lou,
Thank you for the words of support.
-Miller
Posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 9:01:04
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2002, at 21:19:20
Dinah,
I am glad you are following me around to answer my posts!! At least I get some honest replies that way!!!
This was the first book I read of Rabbi Kushner's. It touched me because he made so much sense with his theories. He realized that although his son had to suffer, it was not God's fault. A man in his position could have easily turned bitter and mean. Instead he carried on with his broken heart and tried to let people understand his version of religion.
His version makes sense to me. God doesn't pick and choose who will suffer, but is there for comfort and strength.
As I experience my own type of suffering from depression, anxiety, low self esteem, a little paranoia, self-induced sadness, etc., etc., I hope I will be able to remember his struggles. If I can remember and make myself remember with sympathy, maybe I can find peace.
Thanks, Dinah for listening to me. What other books have you read of his? Do they all have the same theme?
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2002, at 13:02:34
In reply to Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by Miller on December 23, 2002, at 19:59:40
> So, I read this booked titled "When Bad Things Happen To Good People" by Harold S. Kushner.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
But I don't mean to be pushy. Did you deliberately not use it to link to Amazon? If so, I'd be interested in why, over at PBA:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 20:27:25
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Dinah, posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 9:01:04
Hi Miller. The two I remember offhand are my very favorite "To Life!: A Celebration of Jewish Being and Thinking" and the one I wasn't that impressed with "How Good Do We Have to Be? A New Understanding of Guilt and Forgiveness". The funny thing was that while the second one disappointed me at the time I read it, probably because it wasn't what I thought it was, it heavily influenced my personal theology, and I suppose I'll have to buy it again as a reference. :)
Posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 20:45:22
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Miller, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 20:27:25
Hi Dinah,
The secondbook you mentioned about guilt, what was it about? I have major guilt issues that lead directly to my self esteem problems. Do you think that book may help?
Thanks in advance for the advise. I hope you have a great Christmas.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 21:07:42
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by Miller on December 24, 2002, at 20:45:22
Hmmm. I think that may have been my problem with it. It may have been too philosophical to meet my needs. Since I have OCD, a book with the title of "How Good do you Have to Be" was appealing. But tell you what, I am planning to purchase it again as a reference book, because the explanation of the Garden of Eden makes wonderful theological sense to me. I use it often when talking about "the fall" and would like to be able to properly credit it. So when I get it, I'll look over it and let you know if it gets into the more personal aspects of guilt and shame.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2002, at 6:32:58
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Miller, posted by Dinah on December 24, 2002, at 21:07:42
Dinah,
You wrote that the book [...has a wonderfulll explanation of the Garden of Eden and the fall...]
Could you share with us a short synopsis of the book's explanation of the Garden of Eden and the fall? If you could, I think that it could benifit others here to hear it and [spark] a discussion that could be good for the cmmunity here.
Sincerely,
Lou
Posted by Dinah on December 25, 2002, at 9:20:54
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2002, at 6:32:58
I'd be happy to Lou, but as I said it's been a while since I read the book. I'd rather wait until I read it again so that I don't misrepresent what the author said or mix it in with my own ideas. But I think the general idea was that in choosing to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that humankind made the choice to be fully human with all the pains and joys associated with that rather than remain as a dependent child in relation to the Father.
But I do need to read it again, because I might not have that exactly right.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2002, at 9:45:25
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on December 25, 2002, at 9:20:54
Dinah,
Yes, that sounds like a good idea to verify what the author wrote. I will look foeward to your post in the future.
Lou
Posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 17:38:47
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2002, at 9:45:25
I remember reading "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" when it first came out. It made a lot of sense to me. I remember that it had a big impact on a lot of people when it came out.
Posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 17:46:42
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 17:38:47
Another book you might find interesting:
"Making Loss Matter : Creating Meaning in Difficult Times"
by David J. Wolpe
Posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 18:34:51
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 17:46:42
On the topic of faith...I have felt like depression has meant a shaking of my faith in the most generic sense of the word. What I mean by this is not necessarily religious faith, or faith in God, but just faith--faith that it is worth getting up each day, faith that one's efforts are worth it, faith that life has meaning, faith in other people, faith in oneself.
It is the last that is the biggest problem. I have little faith in myself. I have grown to be very unreliable to myself and others. Because of my lack of motivation, I don't keep my word to myself. I am better at it with others, but not good enough. So, I have lost faith. I struggle with the idea of faith that things will improve, that there is a reason to try to improve things, to overcome the "why bother" feeling that pervades.
How to restore meaning to life? I know what I used to find meaningful, but it is hard to reconnect.
Another thought on faith. Faith that when you go about your day, people will not try to harm you. This is more like trust, I guess. This kind of faith was sorely tested during the sniper weeks. Before we knew who the sniper was, it could have been anyone, and the random nature of the attacks led us to feel very little control in our day to day lives. It made me think about how most of the time, I go out and about assuming, trusting, having faith in, the idea that the other inhabitants of my world around me will not shoot me or hurt me purposely. Most of the time, we take this faith/trust for granted. During the sniper attacks, it rose to the surface of consciousness quickly.
In a similar way, as I drive on the highway, I am struck by the trust and faith we drivers have in each other to follow the rules! I mean, just because there are broken white lines dividing the highway into lanes, what a major act of faith it is to drive at 60+ miles per hour alongside other cars, taking for granted that they will follow the rules and keep to their lanes in a reasonable manner. Of course, a certain amount of skepticism is warranted, to be ready for the possible hazzards associated with someone not following the rules. But every day, we operate with a great amount of trust and faith in our fellow humans and the social contracts we have created in society.
But this is the faith/trust that is usually taken for granted, not thought about.
I am sure there are many more examples.
Posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 16:34:30
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 18:34:51
Thank you for your posts. I will try to find the book you recommended.
I apologize for the delay in responding. I have been thinking a lot about your last post. I think you are right about losing faith being the faith in almost every aspect of our lives.
It is easy to tell the posters who are on their way to recovery and those of us (me) that seem to be slipping lower. The people recovering are those who are renewing faith in themselves, religious faith, and faith in others. It all seems so far away now. It's like a "before and after" picture with someone who has lost their memory. They can't recognize the before picture. The after picture is who they ARE.
Enough of my rambling. Thank you again for helping me to think through my issues. I do appreciate your insight.
-Miller
Posted by BekkaH on January 1, 2003, at 16:38:01
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression, posted by noa on December 26, 2002, at 17:38:47
MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING by Viktor E. Frankl, M.D. is another book you might find helpful.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 2, 2003, at 2:21:15
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression-Noa, posted by BekkaH on January 1, 2003, at 16:38:01
> MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING by Viktor E. Frankl, M.D. is another book you might find helpful.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
But I don't mean to be pushy. Did you deliberately not use it to link to Amazon? If so, I'd be interested in why, over at Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Miller on January 2, 2003, at 9:38:34
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression-Noa, posted by BekkaH on January 1, 2003, at 16:38:01
Believe it or not, I have already read Frankl's book. It was required reading in a college course of mine. I just read it again about 3 weeks ago. I understood what he was saying throughout a lot of the book, by it really didn't do anything to help me find any type of understanding or peace.
-Miller
Posted by BekkaH on January 2, 2003, at 21:07:27
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression-Noa, posted by Miller on January 2, 2003, at 9:38:34
> Believe it or not, I have already read Frankl's book. I understood what he was saying throughout a lot of the book, by it really didn't do anything to help me find any type of understanding or peace.> -Miller
>Hi Miller,
I'm sorry it didn't help you now, but maybe it will at some point in your life. Perhaps some of these things take a lot of time.
Posted by BekkaH on January 2, 2003, at 21:10:03
In reply to Re: double double quotes » BekkaH, posted by Dr. Bob on January 2, 2003, at 2:21:15
Thanks for telling me about this feature. I wasn't aware of it until now.
Posted by Miller on January 2, 2003, at 21:22:23
In reply to Trying to understand faith and depression-Miller, posted by BekkaH on January 2, 2003, at 21:07:27
Well, I am not sure I can relate to what he was trying to get across. In my mind, he was saying "There is meaning in one's suffering". I realize there was a lot more to the book, but that was the main point I took away from it.
I don't necessarily think there IS meaning in suffering. I won't bore you (or scare you) with my idea of suffering. I did really relate to him when he was telling about how so many prisoners died right after Christmas because they lost hope. Losing hope is when it all ends. We see it everyday. An old person is put into a nursing home and they die a few weeks later. Or the old person who "hangs in there" until a specific event is over. Or the terminally ill patient who is too tired to keep up the fight anymore. And we can't forget the suicidal people who take their lives because there is no hope left of the internal pain being relieved.
So, I agree that in order for him to survive, he needed to keep the HOPE that his suffering (and those of his family) had meaning. If that is what motivated him, it is understandable.
I believe each person may have a different motivation. Whether it be competition, a quest for love, anger towards oneself or others, or even for the perfect "moral" life. It's up to each person to find the underlying motivation and nurture it enough to balance it within personal boundaries. Frankl certainly had to hold on tight. But he was able to make peace with his ordeal by examining his motivations.
Just my opinion.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 16:14:41
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2002, at 9:45:25
Yep, that was the basic idea. It's a really interesting book.
Posted by jeanmari1 on January 5, 2003, at 3:35:28
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 16:14:41
> Yep, that was the basic idea. It's a really interesting book.
>I, too, am struggling with depression and faith...the spiritual kind and the day-to-day kind (if they aren't one and the same).
A book that helped me to understand Frankl's book more deeply was "When Life Calls Out to Us: The Love and Lifework of Viktor and Elly Frankl" It provided a beautiful context for his life and work that made me understand much more of his philosophy. I was surprised that it had been written by a Frankl student & friend who is from a nearby school. That was just strange coincidence I believe. But the book is quite good...more story than therapy as backdrop to Frankl's work.
Posted by Noa on January 5, 2003, at 10:20:53
In reply to Re: Trying to understand faith and depression » Dinah, posted by jeanmari1 on January 5, 2003, at 3:35:28
I was recently in the bookstore and Christopher Reeve's new book ("Nothing is impossible : reflections on a new life")caught my eye. I leafed through it and actually got to read a few chapters (it is a small book and short chapters). He talks about his own quest--he went through several paths--started out in Jesuit high school, tried Buddhism, flirted with scientology as a struggling young actor, etc. etc. for him, what he ended up feeling comfortable with is unitarian universal church, and he goes into how he likes that it is not doctrinaire, but that you have to be able to accept a certain amount of not knowing the answers.
I also read part of an interesting book that you might find interesting: "The beaten path : field notes on getting wise in a wisdom-crazy world" by Ptolemy Tompkins. I need to go back and read the rest. He is the son of a kind of "guru" of new age spiritual movements, and he describes his own quest, but also explains a lot about the various approaches. The premise of the book is that there are limitless books on the "answer" and it can be confusing--afterall, they each claim to be "THE path".
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