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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Hyena on January 12, 2011, at 13:46:59
I suffer from depression and social anxiety. I've been taking fish oil for a few months now, experimenting with different doses, ratios and combinations. Although it works well by itself I've noticed that when combined with certain other supplements, it can send me into a terrible depression.
The supplements I've noticed it happening with are B6, magnesium and rhodiola. I've taken these supps seperately from fish oil in the past without a problem. Im wondering if fish oil is boosting some of the same nurotransmitters as these other supps and that together they might be knocking me out of balance.
I would be really disappointed if this was the case as fish oil can work fantastically well but I'd like to find something that synergises with it as I think there is still room for improvement.
Just wondering if anyone else here has had this experience with fish oil.
By the way at the moment I'm taking ~1g EPA daily.
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 12, 2011, at 14:44:27
In reply to Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Hyena on January 12, 2011, at 13:46:59
Combining a bunch of nutrients can be tricky as you may not like the cumulative effects. I know. I've had this experience many times. I take 1.5 grams of fish oil with 1,300mg of borage oil and that works for me. 1 gram of fish oil sounds good, if you ask me. I would stick with it. Yes, it's very good for you. The suggestion I have for you is to be mindful of the time of day you take any particular supplement. For example, if I take my fish oil in the morning or mid-morning and reserve the magnesium/calcium supplement for bedtime, then I feel okay. If you are taking the fish oil and magnesium at the exact same time, you may feel it is too much. Try magnesium at bedtime and reserve the fish oil for the morning. Time of day is important. Some supplements if you take them all at once at the same time of day, you may feel worse because of the cumulative effects. Dosage is important as well. It sounds as if you've gotten your fish oil dosage adjusted to what you can tolerate. Now look at the dosage of your magnesium. Should you increase or decrease it? What is a comfortable dosage for you that helps your symptoms? I've noticed that at least for myself, I tend to do better on magnesium (and calcium) if I reserve it for bedtime only. I not only sleep better, but the depression is better. The thing about magnesium is that one, you have to take the right kind. Don't go with magnesium oxide. It is an inferior form. I use magnesium citrate, and some people have had success with other forms like magnesium glycinate. Magnesium glycinate in my opinion is best taken at bedtime. Second, with magnesium you need to reach a dosage that helps your symptoms. You can't always go by the RDA for magnesium, which is roughly around 400mg per day. I've slowly titrated my magnesium dosage up to 800mg, but that's because I also take just as much calcium and they tend to balance each other out. If you're just taking magnesium, start off with a low dosage, say 200mg at bedtime. Slowly increase the dosage to what you can stand. I was at 600mg of magnesium which I tolerated okay, but then six months later I increased both the magnesium and calcium which fortunately, worked for me. Everybody is different and so is their tolerance for any given supplement. Just consider time of day you take your supplements. That might help. That's my suggestion because I've been down that road a thousand times or more. Some supplements when taken together complement each other (synergism). Other combinations can make you feel worse. Perhaps you've just tried that combination that doesn't really work for you.
Lao
Posted by Hyena on January 16, 2011, at 6:08:52
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Lao Tzu on January 12, 2011, at 14:44:27
Thanks for the reply Lao.
The thing is even if i take them apart i seem to have trouble. i was taking mag at night and slept well after it but then had some depression the next afternoon and evening. if i took mag in the daytime with fish oil it made me very drousy but gave my mood a lift still. but i still had a kind of hangover from this the next day. when i took mag in the past i had no effect from it whatsoever at any dose i tried.
all i can think is that fish oil makes me more sensitive to these supplements in some way. strangely the depression i got with b6, mag and rhodiola was all very similar. i also started to experience OCD like symptoms, although i've never been diagnosed with OCD. maybe just one particular neurotransmitter was being knocked out of balance by the combination of these supplements.
im going to try taking a multivit that has small amounts of mag and b6 in it to see what happens.
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 17, 2011, at 10:21:42
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements » Lao Tzu, posted by Hyena on January 16, 2011, at 6:08:52
The depression you experience may or may not have anything to do with taking magnesium. It could be that your depression is not stabilized enough, and perhaps the magnesium is not doing its job because something else is deficient. Are you taking medication? Are you using anything to boost your serotonin or dopamine? I've found that, at least for me, I need to take various vitamins and minerals to stave off the depression, so maybe your problem doesn't involve only fish oil and magnesium. Perhaps you are deficient in other vitamins and minerals. Perhaps you are very sensitive to magnesium. I wouldn't use it if it makes you feel worse. The following is a website that I tell people about that categorizes the subtypes of depression and offers information on the types of supplements to use depending on which subtype you're in. Maybe this information will guide you in the right direction. I don't know for sure. It's helped me a lot, but I realize everybody reacts differently to supplements. What is right for one person is not necessarily a panacea for everyone. Here's the website:
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/home.php
When you get there, you can click on Depression and Display Information, and it will tell you about the different subtypes and causes of Depression. I find it useful, especially if you have no idea what may be causing your depression, as depression can be caused by a wide range of physiological and psychological stressors. It's just a guide if your depression is mainly biochemical in nature.
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on January 17, 2011, at 10:37:54
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements » Lao Tzu, posted by Hyena on January 16, 2011, at 6:08:52
Sometimes for some people a combination of amino acids, a good multivitamin, and a B complex vitamin help with low mood and depression if you are not currently taking medication. Patricia Slagle's 'The Way Up From Down' is a good book for this reason. In my case, however, it wasn't sufficient because I was diagnosed as bipolar/schizophrenic so I had to tailor my own nutritional regimen in addition to medication. But not everybody has to take medication to become well. Some people do well on the nutrients alone if you don't have bipolar or schizophrenia. In my case, I had to look at individual nutrients and determine carefully which ones helped me and strict dosages for each one. It was frustrating at first, but I am more stable with them than without.
Lao
Posted by mogger on January 19, 2011, at 21:03:46
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements » Lao Tzu, posted by Hyena on January 16, 2011, at 6:08:52
Hyena,
believe it or not I take 10 grams of EPA a day and it is fantastic for my depression/anxiety. I was at 4 grams and was feeling benefits and read about the Inuit eskimos who ingest about 12-15 grams of EPA a day so I increased it to 10 grams. My pdoc said to me that the minimum one should take for anxiety/depression is 4 grams of EPA a day. Why not try to increase your fish oil to 4 grams of EPA and drop your other supplements and try juicing vegetables to get all your vitamins naturally? that is what I do. I used to experiment with b6 and b12 and had pronounced depression and anxiety that came with it. I don't take any vitamins as I had my b vitamins tested by my doctor and he said they were fine with all my vegetable juicing. In fact he said it was the best way to ingest vitamins. Just a thought,
Joseph
Posted by Hyena on January 22, 2011, at 5:55:21
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by mogger on January 19, 2011, at 21:03:46
Thanks for the reply. just wondering how you take your EPA.
do you split the doses?
do you take with food?
do you take any DHA with the EPA?
with me, i take a gram with a small meal mid morning usually and i feel the effects about 60 -90 minutes later. this effect can last anywhere from 1 to 6 hours. it can be fairly inconsistant. if i take another dose later in the day i can sometimes get a small effect but never as strong as the first dose. also, if i take more than one gram at once it usually dose nothing for me.
i've discovered through trial and error that taking vitamin E with EPA makes the effect stronger. I take about 800IU vit E with my gram of EPA daily now.
My brand of fish oil has a 7:1 ratio of EPA to DHA. I tried taking a high DHA supplement before and it sent me into a terrible depression after one dose.even closer to a 1:1 ratio will make me depressed after a few days.
I have mixed feelings about fish oil now. I think it has promise but i dont like the fact that i have to be so particular about how i take it for it to work for me.
i confirmed again yesterday that it doesnt go well with other supplements by taking a multi vitamin before the EPA. i felt the effects of the EPA for a couple of hours but then crashed down into a horrible state of depression.
after investigating on the web i discovered a possible reason. apparently fish oil raises levels of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine along with serotonin and dopamine. too much acetylcholine can cause depression in some people.
maybe some of the other supplements i was taking boost this process and i end up with very high acetylcholine levels.
anyway, i agree with you that getting vitamins from food it better than getting them from a pill. i am trying to eat less processed food these days.
also, do you take any medication with your EPA?
Thanks.
Posted by 64bowtie on February 2, 2011, at 6:30:52
In reply to Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Hyena on January 12, 2011, at 13:46:59
Dr. Oz, on his daily program, pointed to a test for Balance/Imbalance in Omega 3's, Omega 6's, and Omega 9's... His balance point is 2 times as many Omega 6's as Omega 3's on the test... In 1996, a PhD chemical researcher from San Diego, pointed to her collegues agreeing on 4 times 6's to 3's... Dr. Pericone on PBS, stated his research pointed to 3 times 6's to 3's... Dr. Oz states that most who take the testing, have 15 times to 50 times the amount of Omega 6's to Omega 3's, pointing to all sorts of upset conditions in people's digestion and liver functions... It would be "UN-HOLY" of me to speculate what all this may mean to you personally... I only profer this info to enhance your research in hopes that you can be tested and find a fish oil dosage that is most satisfying, to first, yourself, and next, approaching a scientific balancing process... More info can be studied at DrOz.com...
Rod
Posted by Hyena on February 5, 2011, at 13:31:01
In reply to Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Hyena on January 12, 2011, at 13:46:59
Just an update. I've decided to give fish oil a break. i may not ever take it again. today i've had one of my worst depression episodes in months and i'm nearly sure fish oil is to blame. the day before yesterday i had a fantastic effect from it then yesterday became depressed after taking it. today i didnt even take it but the depression is still there.
its not normal depression like i used to get either. it's seriously dark feelings of hopelessness and despair. even exercise, which always puts the breaks on my depression, does nothing for me.
hopefully i will feel better tomorrow. it's disappointing but i just dont think i can put up with these ups and downs from fish oil anymore. no other supplement does this to me. it's just not worth the hassle in my opinion. when it works its better than anything i've tried. but when gives me a reaction like this its hell.
all i ever hear about fish oil is good things. nobody seems to mention that there can be paradoxical reactions like this.
Posted by 49er on February 8, 2011, at 11:24:00
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Hyena on February 5, 2011, at 13:31:01
> Just an update. I've decided to give fish oil a break. i may not ever take it again. today i've had one of my worst depression episodes in months and i'm nearly sure fish oil is to blame. the day before yesterday i had a fantastic effect from it then yesterday became depressed after taking it. today i didnt even take it but the depression is still there.
> its not normal depression like i used to get either. it's seriously dark feelings of hopelessness and despair. even exercise, which always puts the breaks on my depression, does nothing for me.
> hopefully i will feel better tomorrow. it's disappointing but i just dont think i can put up with these ups and downs from fish oil anymore. no other supplement does this to me. it's just not worth the hassle in my opinion. when it works its better than anything i've tried. but when gives me a reaction like this its hell.
> all i ever hear about fish oil is good things. nobody seems to mention that there can be paradoxical reactions like this.I am so sorry to hear about your experiences.
Personally, in spite of trying several fish oil brands and combinations, it has been mediocre at best for me. I am going to try Krill Oil to see if I have better luck.
Fortunately, I am not depressed except by the usual unemployment issues which anyone would be.
Posted by mogger on February 9, 2011, at 11:19:28
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements » Hyena, posted by 49er on February 8, 2011, at 11:24:00
Gosh Hyena I am so sorry for your negative experience with the fish oils. The only thing I can think of is that I tried a fish oil with a high amount of DHA in it and I felt depressed. I take Omega 3 Mood by Country Life and have had great success with it. Just a thought. I am so bummed that you have had such a bad reaction to it.
Joseph
Posted by Hyena on April 10, 2011, at 7:46:25
In reply to Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Hyena on January 12, 2011, at 13:46:59
just a little update on my situation now. after being off the fish oil for a while my anxiety and depression returned full strength. i decided a few weeks ago to go back to taking it as the benefits for me far outweigh the drawbacks. i am being very careful to avoid anything that i know interacts badly with it. my depression and anxiety have subsided considerably since going back on FO. im a completely different person with it. i just really hope it keeps working for me.
Posted by Hombre on April 10, 2011, at 12:37:26
In reply to Update, posted by Hyena on April 10, 2011, at 7:46:25
Have you tried dopamine enhancing supplements? Like vitamin C, tyrosine, mucuna pruriens (contains l-dopa), green tea, stimulants?
I find the balance between serotonin and dopamine is important. All my drugs enhance both, synergistially. In the past straight SSRIs caused this really depressed feeling where I didn't want to go out or do anything. But you have to be careful because you can get a sort of false anxiety from being jazzed up with dopamine and norepinephrine. In that case exercise is CRUCIAL, as you probably know.
Best of luck.
Posted by torridcalm on May 17, 2011, at 9:52:36
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by mogger on February 9, 2011, at 11:19:28
check out the international fish oil standards rating. They test for more then just mercury. I don't know how to copy the info into this post.
Posted by Hyena on May 22, 2011, at 5:29:07
In reply to Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Hyena on January 12, 2011, at 13:46:59
I'm still having great results with EPA as long as I dont take anything that interferes with it at the same time. It is without a doubt the best thing I've ever taken for anxiety/depression. I've had the longest period of mental stability in my life in the last few months.
After a lot more research I think EPA works by lowering inflammation in the brain. It is needed to balance out the proinflammatory omega 6 fatty acid called arachidonic acid or AA. We get way too much omega 6 in the diet. Some of us may be more sensitive to this than others. Inflammation can affect neurotransmitter production. This is the theory of dr Barry sears of the zone diet.
I believe exercise may also work by lowering inflammation in the brain.
If you haven't had success taking EPA in the past try the following:
1. Take it with vitamin e. 200-800iu.
2. Don't take more than 1gram at a time.
3. Look for a high EPA/dha ratio. mine is 7/1.
4. Give it a few weeks to get the full effect.If anyone has any questions on any of the above I'd be happy to answer.
Posted by torridcalm on May 23, 2011, at 18:15:05
In reply to Re: Fish oil interactions with other supplements, posted by Hyena on May 22, 2011, at 5:29:07
the ratio is what seems to be important. All the studies I've read used 10-20 grams a day of high ratio EDA:DHA. It seems to help a number of mental and phyisical conditions
Posted by torridcalm on May 23, 2011, at 18:18:31
In reply to Re: Update, posted by Hombre on April 10, 2011, at 12:37:26
does vit C affect dopamine?
This is the end of the thread.
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