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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sigismund on February 14, 2011, at 20:20:24
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me! » linkadge, posted by sigismund on February 14, 2011, at 20:12:08
Then there's green tea.
I swear I feel more energy running through me at nights than in the day.
It's been chronic.
The only good sleep I have had in the last 15 years was the first 3 months on agomelatine.
Posted by morgan miller on February 14, 2011, at 20:32:02
In reply to phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by linkadge on February 14, 2011, at 18:03:06
I don't react so well to PS either. It can be destabilizing for some. I get a similar agitating reaction to theanine.
Posted by sigismund on February 14, 2011, at 23:03:21
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by morgan miller on February 14, 2011, at 20:32:02
>I get a similar agitating reaction to theanine.
I remember you saying that. I had thought that gave me insomnia as well, but I may have been wrong.
I think ginkgo does.
I was hoping PS could do whatever it is famous for doing. Improving memory? Cortisol? Complete crapshoot.
Posted by morgan miller on February 14, 2011, at 23:27:24
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 14, 2011, at 23:03:21
Yep, total crapshoot. I luckily do respond to some things they way you are supposed, or the way many other people do. I think holy basil and cordyceps are two.
Sucks you haven't sleep well in that many years. Is it sleep apnea? Most likely just messed up brain chemistry like the rest of us huh. Does anything help?
Posted by sigismund on February 15, 2011, at 13:30:15
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me! » sigismund, posted by morgan miller on February 14, 2011, at 23:27:24
>Is it sleep apnea?
No
>Most likely just messed up brain chemistry like the rest of us huh.Yep
>Does anything help?Not for long (they're the nice addictive ones).
Mirtazepine was OK until I woke up.I quite liked opiate sleep because it goes on and on and on.
That is how I slept when I was 20.
With agomelatine one night I slept maybe 10 hours.
Posted by morgan miller on February 15, 2011, at 14:33:25
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 15, 2011, at 13:30:15
I'm sure you've tried lyrica and neurontin, seems liked you've tried just about everything.
What about cycling some drugs like lyrica for at least a few good nights sleep a week?
Posted by sigismund on February 15, 2011, at 23:05:36
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me! » sigismund, posted by morgan miller on February 15, 2011, at 14:33:25
I wonder if Lyrica is a bit toxic?
Gabapentin is OK.
How does Lyrica compare to gabapentin?
I need to start magnesium glycinate and pyridoxyl 5 phosphate.
There is some problem in the conversion (or whatever) of arginine to urea. Arginine is high and urea is low.
Keeping track of entropy will be very interesting, if little else.
Posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 11:41:23
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me! » morgan miller, posted by sigismund on February 15, 2011, at 23:05:36
So you are taking arginine and believe that you may have issues with utilizing it in your body, or, you just want to start things like p5p to better utilize arginine? I just recently added p5p back into my regimen mainly to enhance the absorption of amino acids like arginine. I hope though that it is assisting in mood/anxiety issues but it's really hard to tell. I take a smaller than suggested amount, splitting my 50 mg round tables in fourths or eighths.
I think magnesium glycinate could definitely be helpful with sleep. Either way, a little extra magnesium may just be a good addition to a general health maintenance regimen. Have you tried glycine by itself? I know Carlson sells a powder.
Lyrica is more powerful than Gabapentin, so it likely can be more toxic. Over on Mind and Muscle, Lyrica is spoken of as being a much more effective sleep aid than Gabapentin. I don't think anyone over there that uses does so every night as there is some fear over tolerance and other potential issues. I know drugs like Gabapentin and Lyrica have the potential to enhance slow wave sleep.
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/299/3/1095.abstract
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/299/3/1095.full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16171242
Posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 11:44:46
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 11:41:23
Oops, posted two links of the same study. Meant to post just the full article.
I don't know if Lyrica is worth. Maybe it is if it means 3 or 4 good night's sleep with very few side effects and no real long term negative effects.
Posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 12:22:55
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 11:41:23
No, I'm not taking arginine.
I was just having a chat with my doctor about my blood chemistry, and the argine was high and always is and the urea/creatine ratio was low as always, suggesting either that conversion problem (which I can't articulate) or a problem digesting protein.
I have tried glycine by itself. It was OK. Magnesium has always been OK. Since I don't remember my dreams, maybe some pyridoxyl 5 phosphate is indicated.
I should be able to get magnesium glycinate from BAC or Bulknutrition or even Purebulk.
Posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 12:31:05
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 11:41:23
For me it is an every night thing, so maybe gabapentin is better?
Last night, for example, I woke at midnight and took 300mg gabapentin (the first I had had since the previous night) and then actually slept until 4.30am with only one more break. Which is pretty good for me.
Posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 12:44:48
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 12:22:55
US$54/kilo from Purebulk for magnesium glycinate.
Posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 14:30:50
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 12:44:48
That's a pretty good price on magnesium glycinate. Thanks for the link.
Yeah I guess if Gabapentin makes that kind of impact there's no reason to take Lyrica.
I was just thinking that either Gabapentin or Lyrica could be something you could use maybe four days a week and just accept that you probably won't sleep well the other nights. It's like when I was taking classes and working full time a few years ago. If I just slept 7 to 8 hours 3 days a week I was o.k. with that. Now I'm at a point where I am afraid to take on anything that might sacrifice sleep.
Linkage, sorry for kinda hijacking this thread.
Morgan
Posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 15:07:52
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 14:30:50
Well, phosphatidyl serine is something that is hard to say much about.
It sounded promising to me. Cortisol?
But umm, I took a few bottles and never had much to say about it one way or the other.Larry Hoover somewhere reported that the bovine(?) form had some fractions missing from the soybean one.
Posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 15:48:27
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 15:07:52
PS is pretty big with in the bodybuilding community. The lowering of cortisol plays a role in better recovery from workouts.
PS has both put me to sleep, agitated me, and enhanced my sense of well being and brain function. It just wasn't consistent enough and did the positives did not outweigh the negatives enough to stick with it.
Bovine source? Huh.. I'm still considering using Cerebrolysin(from pig brains). I know most people here would not even think twice about doing this. I just have not heard of anything bad enough resulting from it's use to scare me away from it.
Posted by 49er on February 16, 2011, at 16:30:31
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me! » sigismund, posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 15:48:27
> PS has both put me to sleep, agitated me, and enhanced my sense of well being and brain function. It just wasn't consistent enough and did the positives did not outweigh the negatives enough to stick with it.
>
That was exactly my experience. Interestingly, if I take a small amount (50mg) as part of a multivitamin, it doesn't bother me.Funny, a Vitamin Shoppe representative who sounded so knowledgeable swore by it regarding improving brain function. He was right for a day until all h-ll broke lose when I couldn't sleep.
49er
Posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 18:01:04
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me! » sigismund, posted by morgan miller on February 16, 2011, at 15:48:27
>I'm still considering using Cerebrolysin(from pig brains)
I can't be 100% sure, but on one site I read someone's experience of it and it was really negative.
After a while I get the names mixed up.
Posted by morgan miller on February 17, 2011, at 1:31:55
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 16, 2011, at 18:01:04
Yeah I think I remember you telling me that before. I've heard a lot of good reviews too. I don't know. I feel like I'm getting a bit desperate. Desperate times call for desperate measures, or, don't do something out pure desperation? Hmmm. It's hard to accept that I'm this much less than just 3 or 4 years ago. Maybe i will wait for other people to be guinea pigs. Still, after hearing the miracles it has worked for people, I am so tempted to try it. There's the one story I read of the guy that had some form of encephalitis and could not go to college anymore, but after cerebrolysin treatment, he recovered and was able to attend college and finish it.
Posted by sigismund on February 17, 2011, at 2:04:53
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by morgan miller on February 17, 2011, at 1:31:55
As I dimly recall, the person who took it felt really wired.
I suppose there are different solutions for the problems of different ages, by which I mean that at my age not many people would say this
>It's hard to accept that I'm this much less than just 3 or 4 years ago
simply because people my age feel this routinely (no criticism implied, I'm sure you understand).
Posted by morgan miller on February 17, 2011, at 2:25:52
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 17, 2011, at 2:04:53
I understand completely. I've noticed this with my father who is 64. I think people like Mark Sisson of Mark's Daily Apple give me hope.
I'm 38, and don't know anyone that is has experienced what I have. Several friends of mine are 39 and 40 and just starting to run triathlons. They are starting families and working full time. 10 years ago I was working full time and thinking about trying to run triathlons professionally. 4 years ago I was working at an elementary school full time, a moving company, and waiting tables. I worked for 3 weeks straight without a break. I realize this was overkill, but it was kinda nice that I could do it. I then worked full time at the elementary school, waited table 2 nights a week, and took 2 psychology courses. My therapist had 2 kids at home, worked full time, and was going for her Ph.d. in clinical psychology at the age of 50. I'm a 38 year old unproductive physical and mental mess trying to heal and recover. I'm sure you understand what I mean.
The difference between me and the other people I know, mental illness. Sure, the fact that I went through this mental and physical breakdown during these years between my mid to late 30s definitely has something to do with my decline. If all this happened at 30 it would not have had the same impact. I likely would not have had such a severe breakdown at 30 anyway, getting older and starting to feel it, after beating my body up, was a major contributor to my very damaging mixed episode in 2007/2008.
Posted by Hombre on February 20, 2011, at 19:16:41
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by morgan miller on February 17, 2011, at 2:25:52
It's never too late. Never.
Posted by sigismund on February 21, 2011, at 0:53:20
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by Hombre on February 20, 2011, at 19:16:41
I think Buddhism prohibits comparisons between now and before or between self and others.
Americans, being an optimistic people, have very high standards.
Posted by morgan miller on February 21, 2011, at 23:40:35
In reply to Re: phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by sigismund on February 21, 2011, at 0:53:20
> I think Buddhism prohibits comparisons between now and before or between self and others.
>
> Americans, being an optimistic people, have very high standards.I like this buddhist philosophy. Unfortunately, unless I at least get back to wellness and am able to go out and enjoy life again, I'm going to be a miserable f*ck. That's me being a pessimistic American.
Posted by bleauberry on March 13, 2011, at 9:42:35
In reply to phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by linkadge on February 14, 2011, at 18:03:06
I did really poorly on this stuff as well.
Posted by SLS on May 11, 2011, at 6:25:38
In reply to phosphatidyl serine = major instability for me!, posted by linkadge on February 14, 2011, at 18:03:06
Hi Linkadge.
> Hi, the only think I changed in the last few days was the addition of phosphatidyl serine (75mg) to my current regime. I could not sleep last night at all, and my mind would not shut off!
>
> I feel very unstable.
>
> I stopped today, I hope this gets better!!!
Did this instability resolve proximal to your stopping phosphatidylserine (PS)?I began taking PS a few weeks ago. Beginning a few days after initiating treatment, the rate of improvement of my bipolar depression accelerated. I am feeling better now than I have since 1987. Does this demonstrate causation? No. It could have been an unrelated coincidence. However, I performed an experiment. I discontinued PS for a few days and saw that I became more depressed. Within 12 hours of reinstituting PS, I recaptured the improved antidepressant response.
I do hope that you discover the most effective treatment for yourself.
- Scott
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