![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 10:04:35
In reply to Re: Original Limu, posted by Thorp on May 22, 2005, at 21:47:48
> Hi again, Lar, 2005 05 22
>
> I am very much enjoying the exchange, Lar, and I truly appreciate your helping me along in getting into the technology with definitions regarding the seaweeds.I'm going to heavily edit, again, dude. Although I fully recognize your enthusiasm, and belief in the efficacy of this product, those are not matters for debate. Anecdotally, the stuff works. Scientifically, I can't find a single reference to that species used in Original Limu. That's a problem for me.
> Finally, I ask, Lar, if simple dried up kelp were comparable to Original Limu, why haven’t people been put onto this product long ago instead of letting people suffer the horrors of our pathetic Western diet?
You raise a straw man argument. We simply don't know the answers.
> Yes, the developer of the extract could also have come up in a much shorter period of time with a simple dehydration process for creating a product? That is what I read when NEI promotes its product as being 80% fucoidan in that the raw product having 2.5% to 4% by weight fucoidan is concentrated 40 fold. Actually, this seems fishy to me in that a 40-fold concentration would mean that all that is left after the concentration is fucoidan if only 2.5% only were present in the raw stock. They should be claiming with usual content being 2.5% to 4% accordingly between 100% and 140% fucoidan with the product being so concentrated and assuming as it appears through their report that all there is to concentrate is fucoidan.
I caught the inconsistency immediately. That's exactly what I meant by my quip about, "How can I get people to pay $80/lb. for kelp powder?" Just because you read a claim, does not mean it is valid. The math used to promote that product simply cannot be true.
It's like real estate advertising. "Easy access to commute" means "backs onto noisy interstate highway". Ya know?
E.g. all the claims about nutrients. They are *incidental* coextractives. If you process *any* fresh vegetable matter by means of *any* non-chemical extraction process, you'll get the nutrients in the product. Without further processing, it would be impossible for them *not* to be there. You could take weeds from the side of the road and extract those nutrients. Making a big deal of their presence is deceptive. It makes me skeptical.
At this point, I fail to see why similar skepticism ought not to be levelled at Limu. We had noni juice a couple of years back. Before that, kava. Now it is Limu?
Where is the evidence? The only claim to active ingredients I have seen is to fucoidan, and fucoidan is far, far, far from being a substance exclusive to Limu.
> Another perspective rings true regarding NEI when one takes a quick look at the website you recommend.
I didn't recommend it in any way. I was using it for comparison purposes only.
> It reveals a taletell sleight of hand that we are seeing with increasing frequency as others try to jump on the bandwagon with Original Limu.....Now, I see the same kind of deception with NEI where it has to contaminate its product with colostrom! That tells me that they cannot compete head to head with Original Limu regarding the real value of the limu moui in their formulation.
Hmmm. The Original Limu label says it contains spirulina and chlorophyll.
> My question is whose colostrum is this? My mother’s? There is no definition at all given here.I wasn't trying to make a point by point comparison of content. I was comparing fucoidan.
Colostrum is usually bovine, but others are available. I can't speak to this product, and I did not "recommend" it in any way.
When I said:
"Compare that to: http://www.betterherbs.com/limu_nei.htm
This is a dried product, claiming 80% fucoidan by weight. Nobody is buying water with this product. I have no reason to believe its anything more than kelp powder, though."....there were two distinct comparators I wished to consider.
You correctly deal with the first issue, and conclude that the dried product is cheaper, on a fucoidan content basis. I make no claims for efficacy. I was comparing fucoidan content and cost.
>For a 30-day period, NEI purports that it is providing 30 time 120 mg or 3.6 grams of fucoidan for a customer per month. The Original Limu provides two bottles of 2.8 grams of fucoidan per month or slightly less if strictly proceeding with only two ounces per day....So, NEI with its colostrums costs only $46 a month providing supposedly 3.6 grams of fucoidan and Original Limu costs $66.90 a month (actually a 30 day month would require only 60 ounces instead of the 67 ounces available in two bottles) providing a proven and publicly available for review by an independent laboratory of 2.8 grams
Okay, the "alternative" product is clearly cheaper.
The second comparator was more hypothetical. How does this expensive powdered product, Limu Nei (based on Laminaria japonica), differ from a readily available generic product, called kelp powder (also Laminaria, probably japonica)? One obvious difference is unit price.
If all brown algae contain fucoidan (and it's looking like they all do.....you can't prove that, unless you test them all, of course), and brown algae products are readily available and quite inexpensive, and drying does not alter fucoidan (trust me on that, but I believe this to be a very stable molecular structure), then why pay such a price to obtain it?
It boils down to your saying this stuff (Original Limu) is special (without a side-by-side comparison to show that other products *are* less efficaceous), and my not seeing the evidence to conclude the same thing via a priori analysis.
> Now, Lar, this is not the impression you gave in your posting that there was any comparison between the two:
> Original Limu has 0.14% fucoidan. The bulk of your product is water.
> Your remarks suggested a wide discrepancy in fucoidan content of NEI vs Original Limu with your implication that Original Limu is simply selling water.I'm an environmental toxicologist. It makes no sense to ship water from place to place (energy and pollution costs), unless there is no reasonable alternative. "Live enzymes" is one argument against dehydration, but the sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate denature the enzymes. That's what they're for. To stabilize the product against auto-degradation.
> My point is that, although the medium for Original Limu may be water (actually mango and papaya juice puree along with a small amount of a natural preservative, grapefruit extract),
I see the mention of the fruit puree in the literature, but I do not see it on the label. That concerns me.
The actual preservatives are sodium benzoate (incorrectly described as a polyunsaturated fatty acid in the company literature) and potassium sorbate. The grapefruit extract is antioxidant.
> I take it that my last posting satisfied your other questions regarding the following:
>
> 1. Selecting limu moui, actually sphaerotrichia divaricata according to the label on Original Limu, over other fucoidan-containing seaweeds for Original LimuQuite contrary to your supposition, I can see no reason whatsoever to support the selection of this specific form of brown algae over all others (many thousands of species).
Okay, this came as a surprise, the species identified. There is a substantial issue of translation between different languages. Just as kelp is better thought of as a generic common name, so it seems we must consider "limu". In fact, rather than limu, mozuku seems to be the more appropriate descriptor. Whatever.
I used google to track the meaning of limu, and it leads to the genus Laminaria, and more specifically, three species in that genus, especially japonica.
There is not a single mention of Sphaerotrichia divaricata on all of google, with respect to the identifier limu, save for two references to the Original Limu product. There are only 135 mentions of Sphaerotrichia divaricata in any sense, and many of those are duplicate pages. Just a bunch of botanists babbling on, generally.
> 2. Testing fucoidan in over 600 studies in the National Library of Medicine database at www.pubmed.gov not requiring that the fucoidan come only from the plant source limu moui or sphaerotrichia divaricata or any other brown seaweed to reflect the value of the fucoidan in any brown seaweed in the health of people and animals
I disagreed with that specifically. If you make claims to the specific source of fucoidan, as you seem to recurrently do (paraphrased as "only Original Limu has these special properties"), then I would expect to find something in the literature to back that up.
I said, "And how many of those 600 articles are specific to Laminaria japonica? Eleven. Not a single one mentions Limu."
The evidence is not there for Sphaerotrichia divaricata, either. It is not found in Pubmed, period. The genus does not appear, either.
There is not one scientific link to the source species of this product. That doesn't confer some special property, or confirm the potency of Original Limu. It makes for unsubstantiation of conclusions.
> 3. Trying to help people in desperate need even if it means telling them about something they can buy that in some small way could eventually profit me and letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?
If the need truly is desperate, then I suggest they start with the more affordable options. I did not investigate dried brown seaweed products in any substantive way. Yet, with a simple google search, I turned up a product at $3.60/lb
> 4. Selling Original Limu not taking place at an exorbitant price for all the value associated with it
The value vs. cost is a personal attribution. I try to do my best not to argue those issues. You exhibit great faith, and I do not mean to challenge that in any way. Your faith is not subject to debate, and nothing I have said was ever meant to challenge it.
> I hope your doubts are receiving satisfactory responses. I strongly encourage you to take a break from endless pursuit of trying to find something wrong???
I never said there was anything wrong. I am trying to contextualize your information. That is how my brain works.
> and just prove it to yourself by buying some and start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being.
>
> ThorpThat is indeed the height of the bar.
There is something in this last clause that troubles me. It implies that "buying some[Original Limu] (would allow me to) start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being".
That claim is rather broad. And I am a skeptic. A skeptic with a tight budget.
What you have done for me is to introduce me to a new aspect of dietary management. What I will do with that is to obtain some dried brown seaweed of some sort, and give it a shot. I am too far from the sea to obtain anything fresh.
I do not suggest or imply that my trial will be equivalent to or representative of a trial of Original Noni....errrr....Limu.
Lar
P.S. The last sentence included a typo (braino?) that I caught on edit, and I decided to show the correction explicitly. It reveals my own faith in this product, I suppose.
Posted by Thorp on May 23, 2005, at 13:40:54
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 10:04:35
Hey, Lar, I am onto you. You are not just some casual observer with a degree in chemistry. You already have a bottle of Original Limu from which you are reading the label. You have tracked other supplements like Noni and Kava. You have some kind of axe to grind. I suspect your axe is just like mine of wanting to expose shams! Believe me, Original Limu ain’t no moonshine!
I will try to respond like you to your posting:
> Hi again, Lar, 2005 05 22
>
> I am very much enjoying the exchange, Lar, and I truly appreciate your helping me along in getting into the technology with definitions regarding the seaweeds.
I'm going to heavily edit, again, dude. Although I fully recognize your enthusiasm, and belief in the efficacy of this product, those are not matters for debate. Anecdotally, the stuff works. Scientifically, I can't find a single reference to that species used in Original Limu. That's a problem for me.Hey Lar. “The stuff works!” I am a scientist and I really don’t care about all the details any more, although I was just like you when I started – so how can I complain. I would love to hear your results with dried kelp. Don’t you find it strange that nobody is singing the praises of dried kelp already? Why are there no references in the National Library of Medicine to dried kelp? As cheap as it is, a person could easily shovel a half a pound into their spaghetti sauce like basel and oregano. Perhaps you are onto something there. We need to let the word out that since Original Limu is doing so well, others ought to now realize that they can get the same results with dried kelp. I truly would love for that to be the case as it would save us all a lot of money. But, I seriously doubt Original Limu is just superfluous next to dried kelp. Again, why waste 15 years of a man’s life developing the extract that goes into Original Limu if it has no greater value than dried kelp powder? Nevertheless, I am a scientist and I ran my own test of abstention from Original Limu and the throbbing pain returned to my arm. I really don’t want to go to the trouble of ordering dried kelp powder, but if it were to arrive on my doorstep by some interested party such as yourself, I guess I can go through the torment of ten more weeks of a throbbing pain in my right arm if dried kelp powder fails and give it a try. The problem is how to take it. I don’t eat spaghetti everyday. I guess I could make a soup and throw in a bunch there. What do you think would be a fair dosage of dried seaweed to support your contention that fucoidan is fucoidan? I made the same contention but guess I now am backing off until I see that dried kelp really does all that Original Limu does. How many bottles will I need to receive for a three month trial period?
> Finally, I ask, Lar, if simple dried up kelp were comparable to Original Limu, why haven’t people been put onto this product long ago instead of letting people suffer the horrors of our pathetic Western diet?
You raise a straw man argument. We simply don't know the answers.Lar, don’t you think in this world that somebody has already tried consuming dried kelp and should have seen some miraculous health effects already?
> Yes, the developer of the extract could also have come up in a much shorter period of time with a simple dehydration process for creating a product? That is what I read when NEI promotes its product as being 80% fucoidan in that the raw product having 2.5% to 4% by weight fucoidan is concentrated 40 fold. Actually, this seems fishy to me in that a 40-fold concentration would mean that all that is left after the concentration is fucoidan if only 2.5% only were present in the raw stock. They should be claiming with usual content being 2.5% to 4% accordingly between 100% and 140% fucoidan with the product being so concentrated and assuming as it appears through their report that all there is to concentrate is fucoidan.
I caught the inconsistency immediately. That's exactly what I meant by my quip about, "How can I get people to pay $80/lb. for kelp powder?" Just because you read a claim, does not mean it is valid. The math used to promote that product simply cannot be true.
It's like real estate advertising. "Easy access to commute" means "backs onto noisy interstate highway". Ya know?
E.g. all the claims about nutrients. They are *incidental* coextractives. If you process *any* fresh vegetable matter by means of *any* non-chemical extraction process, you'll get the nutrients in the product. Without further processing, it would be impossible for them *not* to be there. You could take weeds from the side of the road and extract those nutrients. Making a big deal of their presence is deceptive. It makes me skeptical.
At this point, I fail to see why similar skepticism ought not to be levelled at Limu. We had noni juice a couple of years back. Before that, kava. Now it is Limu?Lar, we have people who have been on Noni, Sea Silver, and others and then get onto Original Limu and a blown away by how well it works. There is an 80 year old couple I see regularly as new-found friends that look to me to be in their early 60’s who grow their own foods organically even grinding their own corn meal and they have tried everything that has come down the pike for the last forty years as they have said and found none of them even comparing to Original Limu. There is no comparison to be made between Original Limu and hype products. Original Limu is the real thing!
Where is the evidence? The only claim to active ingredients I have seen is to fucoidan, and fucoidan is far, far, far from being a substance exclusive to Limu.
Lar, it is a proprietary extraction process that I could imagine would not rule out additional steps of transforming the fucoidan in it into a more active and bioavailable state. In fact, that is exactly why I am inclined to think that dried kelp won’t do anyone a lick of good in that the fucoidan in it is not readily absorbable into the blood stream. So, I strongly suspect that fucoidan is not fucoidan. There are various types of bioavailability for different sources of fucoidan.
> Another perspective rings true regarding NEI when one takes a quick look at the website you recommend.
I didn't recommend it in any way. I was using it for comparison purposes only.My apologies!
> It reveals a taletell sleight of hand that we are seeing with increasing frequency as others try to jump on the bandwagon with Original Limu.....Now, I see the same kind of deception with NEI where it has to contaminate its product with colostrom! That tells me that they cannot compete head to head with Original Limu regarding the real value of the limu moui in their formulation.
Hmmm. The Original Limu label says it contains spirulina and chlorophyll.Ah Ha! You already have a bottle of Original Limu, I see! Well, I was there at the prelaunch convention and saw what straight extract looked like and it just plain didn’t look like seaweed having a yellow-orange color at least for the batch that I saw. So human beings are funny. If they are told it is an extract of seaweed, they feel that it should look that way as well. I don’t blame the company for helping them feel it is still a seaweed by making the formulation greenish brown in color with the spirulina and chlorophyll if it gets them to drink this spectacular nutritional product.
> My question is whose colostrum is this? My mother’s? There is no definition at all given here.
I wasn't trying to make a point by point comparison of content. I was comparing fucoidan.
Colostrum is usually bovine, but others are available. I can't speak to this product, and I did not "recommend" it in any way.But you do now see my point of why I suspect NEI of being just another product in for the ride without most likely any exceptional value.
When I said:
"Compare that to: http://www.betterherbs.com/limu_nei.htm
This is a dried product, claiming 80% fucoidan by weight. Nobody is buying water with this product. I have no reason to believe its anything more than kelp powder, though."
....there were two distinct comparators I wished to consider.
You correctly deal with the first issue, and conclude that the dried product is cheaper, on a fucoidan content basis. I make no claims for efficacy. I was comparing fucoidan content and cost.
>For a 30-day period, NEI purports that it is providing 30 time 120 mg or 3.6 grams of fucoidan for a customer per month. The Original Limu provides two bottles of 2.8 grams of fucoidan per month or slightly less if strictly proceeding with only two ounces per day....So, NEI with its colostrums costs only $46 a month providing supposedly 3.6 grams of fucoidan and Original Limu costs $66.90 a month (actually a 30 day month would require only 60 ounces instead of the 67 ounces available in two bottles) providing a proven and publicly available for review by an independent laboratory of 2.8 grams
Okay, the "alternative" product is clearly cheaper.Who cares if it doesn’t do the job that Original Limu does? And, without 15 years of R&D behind it, I would highly doubt that it would compare to Original Limu in its truly making a difference in people’s health.
The second comparator was more hypothetical. How does this expensive powdered product, Limu Nei (based on Laminaria japonica), differ from a readily available generic product, called kelp powder (also Laminaria, probably japonica)? One obvious difference is unit price.
If all brown algae contain fucoidan (and it's looking like they all do.....you can't prove that, unless you test them all, of course), and brown algae products are readily available and quite inexpensive, and drying does not alter fucoidan (trust me on that, but I believe this to be a very stable molecular structure), then why pay such a price to obtain it?Perhaps your very point that drying does not alter the fucoidan is the key. Without altering it in some way as possibly could be the case in the proprietary extraction process, the fucoidan in dried kelp is unchanged and thus not readily bioavailable. Just my guess!
It boils down to your saying this stuff (Original Limu) is special (without a side-by-side comparison to show that other products *are* less efficaceous), and my not seeing the evidence to conclude the same thing via a priori analysis.
> Now, Lar, this is not the impression you gave in your posting that there was any comparison between the two:
> Original Limu has 0.14% fucoidan. The bulk of your product is water.
> Your remarks suggested a wide discrepancy in fucoidan content of NEI vs Original Limu with your implication that Original Limu is simply selling water.
I'm an environmental toxicologist. It makes no sense to ship water from place to place (energy and pollution costs), unless there is no reasonable alternative. "Live enzymes" is one argument against dehydration, but the sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate denature the enzymes. That's what they're for. To stabilize the product against auto-degradation.Lar, I find it hard to make arguments when I do not know the facts behind the proprietary issues of Original Limu but I suspect that the components in Original Limu are more bioavailable in a liquid formulation. I could envision colloidally dispersed ingredients that may thereby be more bioavailable and not left clumped up somewhere and simply wind up passing through the alimentary canal without absorption.
> My point is that, although the medium for Original Limu may be water (actually mango and papaya juice puree along with a small amount of a natural preservative, grapefruit extract),
I see the mention of the fruit puree in the literature, but I do not see it on the label. That concerns me.Read the fine print in the white portions of the label apart from the part that says “Other Ingredients:” You’ll see the genus there as well.
The actual preservatives are sodium benzoate (incorrectly described as a polyunsaturated fatty acid in the company literature) and potassium sorbate. The grapefruit extract is antioxidant.An antioxidant would certainly suggest it to be a fine preservative in my way of thinking to protect from free radical chain reactions upon exposure of the formulation to air.
> I take it that my last posting satisfied your other questions regarding the following:
>
> 1. Selecting limu moui, actually sphaerotrichia divaricata according to the label on Original Limu, over other fucoidan-containing seaweeds for Original Limu
Quite contrary to your supposition, I can see no reason whatsoever to support the selection of this specific form of brown algae over all others (many thousands of species).
Okay, this came as a surprise, the species identified. There is a substantial issue of translation between different languages. Just as kelp is better thought of as a generic common name, so it seems we must consider "limu". In fact, rather than limu, mozuku seems to be the more appropriate descriptor. Whatever.
I used google to track the meaning of limu, and it leads to the genus Laminaria, and more specifically, three species in that genus, especially japonica.
There is not a single mention of Sphaerotrichia divaricata on all of google, with respect to the identifier limu, save for two references to the Original Limu product. There are only 135 mentions of Sphaerotrichia divaricata in any sense, and many of those are duplicate pages. Just a bunch of botanists babbling on, generally.Lar, you missed my point of taking whatever is the most economical source of fucoidan and work with it. If Original Limu can process sphaerotrichia divaricata more economically than other seaweed and wind up with just as potent a nutritional supplement, why would it matter which seaweed they chose? I would prefer that they go with what will keep the price down as long as the quality of the product is unaffected.
> 2. Testing fucoidan in over 600 studies in the National Library of Medicine database at www.pubmed.gov not requiring that the fucoidan come only from the plant source limu moui or sphaerotrichia divaricata or any other brown seaweed to reflect the value of the fucoidan in any brown seaweed in the health of people and animals
I disagreed with that specifically. If you make claims to the specific source of fucoidan, as you seem to recurrently do (paraphrased as "only Original Limu has these special properties"), then I would expect to find something in the literature to back that up.
I said, "And how many of those 600 articles are specific to Laminaria japonica? Eleven. Not a single one mentions Limu."
The evidence is not there for Sphaerotrichia divaricata, either. It is not found in Pubmed, period. The genus does not appear, either.
There is not one scientific link to the source species of this product. That doesn't confer some special property, or confirm the potency of Original Limu. It makes for unsubstantiation of conclusions.Again, my bet is that you are missing the point of Original Limu. It is not in the source of the plant, it is in the proprietary extraction process that took 15 years to develop!
> 3. Trying to help people in desperate need even if it means telling them about something they can buy that in some small way could eventually profit me and letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?I’m sorry. Are you the moderator? I did not know. I was not referring to you but rather to the moderator of The Naked Scientists Science Discussion Forum at I won’t give a plug to a pathetic forum.
If the need truly is desperate, then I suggest they start with the more affordable options. I did not investigate dried brown seaweed products in any substantive way. Yet, with a simple google search, I turned up a product at $3.60/lbLar, Desperate people aren’t concerned about a few bucks here and there. They want what has been proven time and time again to work for people. Where is the data on dried kelp powder? I can connect you to thousands of satisfied consumers of Original Limu. If you had a short time yet to live, where would you place your bet?
> 4. Selling Original Limu not taking place at an exorbitant price for all the value associated with it
The value vs. cost is a personal attribution. I try to do my best not to argue those issues. You exhibit great faith, and I do not mean to challenge that in any way. Your faith is not subject to debate, and nothing I have said was ever meant to challenge it.Lar, it is more than faith, although I appreciate your respect for my faith. We have doctors seeing results from the Original Limu that blow them away from many different patients and many different doctors. Results are seen in blood work, in radiological results, etc. Scientists are making similar results for fucoidan in the literature, apparently a very bioavailable form or at least already past the intestinal line barrier. Lar, we see pets and children and infants undergoing dramatic improvements without their having any idea that Original Limu is anything different from kool aid.
> I hope your doubts are receiving satisfactory responses. I strongly encourage you to take a break from endless pursuit of trying to find something wrong
???
I never said there was anything wrong. I am trying to contextualize your information. That is how my brain works.I again apologize.
> and just prove it to yourself by buying some and start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being.
>
> Thorp
That is indeed the height of the bar.
There is something in this last clause that troubles me. It implies that "buying some[Original Limu] (would allow me to) start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being".
That claim is rather broad. And I am a skeptic. A skeptic with a tight budget.
What you have done for me is to introduce me to a new aspect of dietary management. What I will do with that is to obtain some dried brown seaweed of some sort, and give it a shot. I am too far from the sea to obtain anything fresh.
I do not suggest or imply that my trial will be equivalent to or representative of a trial of Original Noni....errrr....Limu.You flatter Noni!
As I have said before, I am no physician and make no claims but I have the common sense to know that if the body is given the right building blocks and right nutrients, it will take care of its own ailments as in healing a cut finger as it was designed to do by the Creator. Original Limu is not a medicine but only a powerful source of incredible nutrition that gets the body back doing its job after a long drought on the Western diet. I feel extremely confident that it will do the same for you. I don’t know whether you have any serious health issues or not, but if you do, I would truly and sincerely from my heart encourage you to try your experiment with dried kelp after you first give yourself a more likely chance at relief, according to the reports of so many, through Original Limu. I trust if you do try the dried kelp, that you will be asking me later still on how to order something that has a better chance of helping you, Original Limu.Lar
P.S. The last sentence included a typo (braino?) that I caught on edit, and I decided to show the correction explicitly. It reveals my own faith in this product, I suppose.So you do take Noni? You won’t believe how much better Original Limu is!
I’m sorry, I may have a lot of typos etc. here, but my time is just getting too short to be as exhaustive as I have been. I really like you, Lar, and see so much of myself in you. I suspect that as you see the wonders of Original Limu yourself that we will look back at these discussions with great reminiscence as a country is dramatically changed in its health and vigor and productivity and reduction of guff.
Thorp
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 24, 2005, at 1:01:22
In reply to Re: Original Limu, posted by Thorp on May 23, 2005, at 13:40:54
> P.S. The last sentence included a typo (braino?) that I caught on edit, and I decided to show the correction explicitly. It reveals my own faith in this product, I suppose.
>
> So you do take Noni? You won’t believe how much better Original Limu is!
>
> I’m sorry, I may have a lot of typos etc. here, but my time is just getting too short to be as exhaustive as I have been. I really like you, Lar, and see so much of myself in you. I suspect that as you see the wonders of Original Limu yourself that we will look back at these discussions with great reminiscence as a country is dramatically changed in its health and vigor and productivity and reduction of guff.
Did he really say that?OMG
He really said that.
Those, those.. infomercial people are real.
heh, and I'm on medication?
Posted by Thorp on May 24, 2005, at 6:00:22
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 24, 2005, at 1:01:22
I can't tell whether you are seeing the light of the value of the long-needed nutrients in Original Limu, a proprietary non-chemical extract of a seaweed bearing among a whole spectrum of nutrients the remarkable immune-boosting component fucoidan, in our nutrient-starved Western culture or whether you jest and mock me.
I choose to play into your potential ploy and speak what I am convinced personally now after two years of experience and study that what is said in large by Scott Kennedy in the infomercial for Sea Vegg is true - not for the cobbled together Sea Vegg but for Original Limu that has over 15 years of research and development behind its proprietary non-chemical extraction process that makes Original Limu unique and one extraordinary food supplement that allows the body to reenergize its chemical machinery to sustain and correct the hitherto unchallenged assaults on the body through neglect and abuse of our Western culture and our Western diet.
I am not telling Gabbi to drop his medication by any stretch of the imagination. I am not a doctor and cannot prescribe, treat, cure or diagnose any ailment. That is his doctor's responsibility and, if he is taking medication, he is taking something that can potentially mean life or death to him because of the potency of the medication for treating a symptom and for wreaking havoc due to its customary and notorious side-effects.
Yet, medication is designed to treat symptoms. A natural supplement of any value like Original Limu provides the body with an arsenal of nutrients to help the body restore itself and consequently eliminate the symptom for which the medication was designed and prescribed. Thus, medications treat the symptom and nutrition removes the symptom potentially according to the teachings of the Father of Modern Day Medicine, Hippocrates, who encouraged mankind to "let food be your medicine and let medicine be your food." Unfortunately, little attention is paid to another teaching of Hippocrates, “Above all, do no harm!”
Over a period of time, a worthy nutritional supplement, like Original Limu, will restore the self-healing power of the body by providing the where-with-all needed by the body as designed by its Creator where our Western culture and diet have only wreaked havoc in the creation, the body -- thus the mounting and devastating chronic disease that so ruthlessly plagues our land and bankrupts our economy.
Over a period of time, as useful as it may be on a temporary basis to bring a body through a life-threatening condition reflecting a symptom of a disease, medication in general does not correct the basis of a condition and instead leads to a worsening overall condition and eventually a slow death like the daily slow poisoning of the body with a strychnine due to the crippling and eventually life-threatening side-effects of most medications. I saw first-hand the ravages of over-medication of my father on his death bed; he placed his absolute trust in the medical industry and forsook any responsibility for his own health.
So one may jest and mock supplements. The regulators like the FDA in cahoots with pharmaceutical companies may seek to deny the public of the godsend of worthy nutritional supplements like Original Limu, but the truth will win out. Our bodies are a creation designed by the Creator to prosper on the gifts nature provides, i.e. our natural food supply including that from the sea and not diet Coke nor man-made medications. When our people recognize the deplorable state of health in our land that our modern ways of living have reaped, they will embrace potent nutritional supplements like Original Limu and see their land healed and rid of strangling misguided corruptions masquerading as the answers to people’s hopes and prayers.
It is high time that we the people exercise our right of free speech and not shrink to the pressures of the powerful in the health industry and the government. We love our land and had better stand up for it. If we do not stand up for what we believe, our right to stand up and speak will be compromised and eventually lost.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 8:57:22
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg?, posted by vitaqueen on May 16, 2005, at 10:42:03
> The problem is that I would prefer not to take 26 vitamin/mineral pills a day, and it is quite costly. I'm wondering if this Sea Vegg (or something else perhaps some of you may know about), could give me the same health benefits, and maybe I can discontinue taking some of the other supplements.
Sea vegg (or any other product) cannot cram into one capsule that which presently requires 26 tablets. It's a physical impossibility.
> I am now taking daily CoQ10 (100mg), B-complex with all cofactors (100mg), Vit E (400iu), alpha lipoic acid (100mg), Vit C (3000 mg), Folic Acid (800 mcg), Milk Thistle (200 mg), Selenium (200 mcg), lycopene/lutein/carotene (500 mcg), grape seed extract (200 mg), calcium/mag (500 mg), vanadium (5000 mcg), manganese (8 mg), L-glutatione (20 mg) chromium (200 mg), red yeast rice (2400 mg) and garlic.
Five mg of vanadium?!? 8 mg manganese? I'll get back to you on those doses.
You could definitely cut some of these out, or reduce doses. In acute treatment of symptomatic conditions, some of these doses are required, but maintenance of health does not require the larger dose. You soon learn how to "listen to your body", and increase certain supps as needed.
You could halve the CoQ10. Halve the milk thistle. (I wouldn't take it every single day, anyway. Give your body a break from herbs. I would take it half the time, or less.)
If you've been on the selenium for a few months, you could halve it.
You don't need to take the antioxidant polyphenol supps every single day. (lycopene, grape seed)
Oral glutathione is a waste of money, in that the glutathione is digested. Glutathione is a protein, and it doesn't survive the stomach intact. You're better off just ignoring this, or substituting in some whey protein powder (high in cysteine). Or some other source of cysteine, such as N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC).Where's the zinc? I see no zinc on your list. It is the most likely mineral for deficient intake, of them all.
> I'm afraid to stop taking any of these because I've been feeling so great, but a life long course of this is going to put me in the poor house. Any suggestions??????? Could Sea Vegg be the answer?
I don't think Sea Vegg is the answer to anything in particular.
You would probably be doing just as well, health wise, if you took all this stuff every other day. That would cut your bill in half, right there. And, you'd till get all the benefits. Some of your blood numbers might shift a tiny bit, but I seriously doubt there would be any significant shifts back the wrong way.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 10:29:20
In reply to Re: Original Limu, posted by Thorp on May 23, 2005, at 13:40:54
> Hey, Lar, I am onto you.
No you're not.
> You already have a bottle of Original Limu from which you are reading the label.
No, it's online.
http://www.thelimucompany.com/pdf/bottlelabel.pdf
> You have some kind of axe to grind. I suspect your axe is just like mine of wanting to expose shams! Believe me, Original Limu ain’t no moonshine!
> I will try to respond like you to your posting.
I only wish you would.
Let's get to my axe.
1. You originally claimed the activity of Limu was related to fucoidan. The Original Limu website also points directly at fucoidan as the special ingredient in Limu (after 15 years of R and D, remember). http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
I showed that fucoidan is not exclusive to Limu.
2. You originally claimed that there are over 600 Pubmed references attesting to the potency and efficacy of fucoidan.I showed that none of those references can be applied to Original Limu specifically (the genus and species *are not even mentioned* in the entire Pubmed database). However, a small handful of those references can be applied to kelp (also known as Limu).
All the other articles refer to other members of a vast family of edible brown algae, demonstrating the complete absence of a unique activity confined to Sphaerotrichia divaricata, from which Original Limu is derived. Rather, this is a general property of an entire class of plant life.
3. When confronted with those arguments, you then claim that it is the extraction process, which renders Limu uniquely "bioactive". That drying would perhaps render the fucoidan inactive (a speculative argument).In fact, each serving of Original Limu contains 6.9 grams (a slightly heaped teaspoonful) of a blend of the seaweed extract, *with* the mass of mango and papaya purees included. Okay, that sets the upper bound on the actual Limu content. What proportion of this could possibly be Limu itself? We know, from the lab analysis, that each ounce contains about 35 mg fucoidan. On a wet weight ratio with the content in the original plant, that would limit the Limu content to 1 gram, at most. On a dry weight basis, compared to other brown algae products, one would only need about 50 mg powder to match this content.
We do not know the patented extraction process, as you attest. It is proprietary. However, it is described on the website as starting with frozen Limu, being chemical-free, and involving "predigestion". I could come up with some very simple extractions that fit that model (e.g pressing, maceration with filtration), with endogenous enzymes providing the "predigestion". Moreover, it does not exclude spray-drying of the extract, prior to combining with the fruit purees. We just don't know.
In any case, a simple perusal of Pubmed identifies a number of simple extraction processes for fucoidan. I could perform such extractions at home, using kelp powder, a teacup, and two products I could find in virtually any home. One of those is water. Water alone extracts fucoidan, but I could improve on that with one addition.
(Aside: My erroneous assertion that mango and papaya purees were not labelled is due to the fact that I did not read the finer print. I must admit to not wanting to start having to wear reading glasses. Presbyopia, age-related decline in close-in visual acuity happens to most of us. Presbyopia means "common eye". I shan't let prebyopia interfere with the accuracy of my portrayals of fact again.)
4. Cost. You claim the cost of Original Limu makes it a bargain (based on claims of efficacy).All we have shown is that Original Limu is the, or one of the, most expensive source(s) of fucoidan in existence. Yet, in your last post, you say "Lar, you missed my point of taking whatever is the most economical source of fucoidan and work with it."
Indeed.
5. Purity. You made arguments that competitors' products were adulterated, with e.g. Siberian ginseng, or colostrum.Apart from the lack of any evidence that this combinatorial approach is somehow improper, Original Limu is itself adulterated. It contains spirulina and chlorophyll.
6. You made claims as to the scientific background for the originator of this product, fully 15 years in development.I fail to see how that is a beneficial claim, in any case, as there is nothing published from all this hard work.
Yet, this "scientist" calls benzoic acid a poly-unsaturated fat: "Sodium benzoate is the sodium salt of benzoic acid, an FDA-approved polyunsaturated fat" http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
If he is a meticulous scientist, that is an egregious error.
7. Tyrrany, etc. I still don't know what you're talking about, or how I got involved in your perception of same.The dialogue:
> > > letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
> > Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?
> I’m sorry. Are you the moderator? I did not know. I was not referring to you but rather to the moderator of The Naked Scientists Science Discussion Forum at I won’t give a plug to a pathetic forum.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/ ???
Moderator? Am I the moderator? Eh? Moderator of what? Why are you even talking about this? I never heard of that place before you brought it up. Are scientists there also asking for evidence?
8. "As I have said before, I am no physician and make no claims"Eh? That is exactly the issue.
I'm not even going to bother with the claims of nutritive value. If an unfortified fruit-based beverage contains only 3 mg vitamin C per serving, what concentration of those other "70-plus nutrients" claimed by Original Limu could it possibly contain?Anyway. That's my last post on the subject.
Lar
Posted by Thorp on May 24, 2005, at 14:03:39
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 10:29:20
Let's get to my axe.
1. You originally claimed the activity of Limu was related to fucoidan. The Original Limu website also points directly at fucoidan as the special ingredient in Limu (after 15 years of R and D, remember). http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
I showed that fucoidan is not exclusive to Limu.Lar, I tried suggesting it is the fucoidan in synergy with all the other minerals and nutrients through the extraction process that gives Original Limu its exceptional value.
2. You originally claimed that there are over 600 Pubmed references attesting to the potency and efficacy of fucoidan.
I showed that none of those references can be applied to Original Limu specifically (the genus and species *are not even mentioned* in the entire Pubmed database). However, a small handful of those references can be applied to kelp (also known as Limu).
All the other articles refer to other members of a vast family of edible brown algae, demonstrating the complete absence of a unique activity confined to Sphaerotrichia divaricata, from which Original Limu is derived. Rather, this is a general property of an entire class of plant life.Lar, I already covered this issue noting that the studies had no intestinal lining barrier to overcome to do the wonders reported in the studies and that Original Limu as I suspect gets through the intestinal lining where the nutrients of simple dried kelp powder may not be so inclined. But, this discussion is really just a shot in the dark until the research supporting my conjectures support me. We are trying to explain everything without having all the facts because this is a proprietary extract.
3. When confronted with those arguments, you then claim that it is the extraction process, which renders Limu uniquely "bioactive". That drying would perhaps render the fucoidan inactive (a speculative argument).
Lar, I never said that drying would render the fucoidan inactive, I just said that I suspect that the proprietary extraction process made the fucoidan in Original Limu more bioactive or more bio accessible as in being more absorbable through the intestinal lining. Again, it is hard to make arguments upon speculation regarding a proprietary process.
In fact, each serving of Original Limu contains 6.9 grams (a slightly heaped teaspoonful) of a blend of the seaweed extract, *with* the mass of mango and papaya purees included. Okay, that sets the upper bound on the actual Limu content. What proportion of this could possibly be Limu itself? We know, from the lab analysis, that each ounce contains about 35 mg fucoidan. On a wet weight ratio with the content in the original plant, that would limit the Limu content to 1 gram, at most. On a dry weight basis, compared to other brown algae products, one would only need about 50 mg powder to match this content.
We do not know the patented extraction process, as you attest. It is proprietary. However, it is described on the website as starting with frozen Limu, being chemical-free, and involving "predigestion". I could come up with some very simple extractions that fit that model (e.g pressing, maceration with filtration), with endogenous enzymes providing the "predigestion". Moreover, it does not exclude spray-drying of the extract, prior to combining with the fruit purees. We just don't know.
In any case, a simple perusal of Pubmed identifies a number of simple extraction processes for fucoidan. I could perform such extractions at home, using kelp powder, a teacup, and two products I could find in virtually any home. One of those is water. Water alone extracts fucoidan, but I could improve on that with one addition.Lar, you are sitting on a gold mine. Why don’t you have at it and come up with your own formulation?
(Aside: My erroneous assertion that mango and papaya purees were not labelled is due to the fact that I did not read the finer print. I must admit to not wanting to start having to wear reading glasses. Presbyopia, age-related decline in close-in visual acuity happens to most of us. Presbyopia means "common eye". I shan't let prebyopia interfere with the accuracy of my portrayals of fact again.)Lar, we have numerous reports of people whose prescriptions for eye wear have had to be changed due to improvement of their vision with Original Limu. Until, you come up with your own extract, you might want to start taking Original Limu with the hope that it would help your vision as well. Actually, the Original Limu would be of great help with your delving into such a grand venture according to many reports of others by increasing your energy and mental acuity. Also, Lar, I pulled up that label as well and was able to zoom in on that fine print and wish I had done so before instead of getting my magnifying glass on the label on, by the way, a totally new bottle as revealed on the home page of my website:
www.limunight.originallimu.com
4. Cost. You claim the cost of Original Limu makes it a bargain (based on claims of efficacy).
All we have shown is that Original Limu is the, or one of the, most expensive source(s) of fucoidan in existence. Yet, in your last post, you say "Lar, you missed my point of taking whatever is the most economical source of fucoidan and work with it."
Indeed.Lar, would you like a less available, more expensive source of the seaweed be used and increase the price any further?
5. Purity. You made arguments that competitors' products were adulterated, with e.g. Siberian ginseng, or colostrum.
Apart from the lack of any evidence that this combinatorial approach is somehow improper, Original Limu is itself adulterated. It contains spirulina and chlorophyll.Lar, I already covered this issue. People from a marketing perspective expect their seaweed extract to look like seaweed. The spirulina and chlorophyll may also have some value as perhaps preservatives as well, I don’t know. Regardless, they are not some hype adulteration like colostrum, gensing, etc. present just to siphon potential buyers from the real thing, Original Limu.
6. You made claims as to the scientific background for the originator of this product, fully 15 years in development.
I fail to see how that is a beneficial claim, in any case, as there is nothing published from all this hard work.
Yet, this "scientist" calls benzoic acid a poly-unsaturated fat: "Sodium benzoate is the sodium salt of benzoic acid, an FDA-approved polyunsaturated fat" http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
If he is a meticulous scientist, that is an egregious error.Lar, now you didn’t just fall off of a turnip truck. The extract for the formulation is purchased by agreement from the company that came up with the extraction process by exclusive contract. That company has no say as to what is written up by the marketing team for Original Limu. I agree with you and wish that The Limu Company had passed it by someone like me or you regarding the nomenclature they used for these additives. But, this is a very small, very new company with a small marketing team and they have done a great job with modest resources getting an incredibly effective nutritional product into the marketplace, thank God.
7. Tyrrany, etc. I still don't know what you're talking about, or how I got involved in your perception of same.
The dialogue:
> > > letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
> > Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?
> I’m sorry. Are you the moderator? I did not know. I was not referring to you but rather to the moderator of The Naked Scientists Science Discussion Forum at I won’t give a plug to a pathetic forum.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/ ???
Moderator? Am I the moderator? Eh? Moderator of what? Why are you even talking about this? I never heard of that place before you brought it up. Are scientists there also asking for evidence?Lar, there was no mention of any evidence. So many of these forums are really proud of themselves and bristle if anyone tries to take advantage of their great forums in marketing their products through their forum at the expense of the participants in their forums missing out on key information due to the censorship of the moderator. As far as you implication that there is no evidence supporting Original Limu, that is an unfair conjecture on your part in that we are trying to discuss a proprietary extract and consequently to protect confidences, evidence as detailed as you would like for perhaps helping you develop a competitive product is not available.
8. "As I have said before, I am no physician and make no claims"
Eh? That is exactly the issue.Lar, read my other post “Original Limu – Nutrition vs Medication” where I note again that I am no physician but I see the value of nutritional supplements vis a vis medication and I share my concept and opinion of the respective value of the two. I do not see that your comment “That is exactly the issue” has any relevance.
I'm not even going to bother with the claims of nutritive value. If an unfortified fruit-based beverage contains only 3 mg vitamin C per serving, what concentration of those other "70-plus nutrients" claimed by Original Limu could it possibly contain?
Lar, for claiming to be a scientist, I find it strange that you do so much discussing but little experimentation. How do you compare Original Limu to some simple fruit drink in its capacity to help the body heal itself? Why don’t you drink fruit juice for six months and then drink Original Limu for six months and then tell me they are the same! Your focus all along our discussion is that man has it all figured out and that you can concoct what the body needs. I prefer to go with what was provided here on earth before there was such a thing as a modern scientist. In spite of my scientific training, I come to more and more a true appreciation of the genius behind the natural world which, in fact, is the basis of a great deal of the pharmaceutical developments.
Anyway. That's my last post on the subject.
Lar
Lar, I look forward to your coming to a knowledge of the value of Original Limu or your coming up with your own product. I do believe you have studied the website in probably far greater detail than I have and should be prepared well for either.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 10:22:57
In reply to Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 24, 2005, at 6:00:22
> I am not telling Gabbi to drop his medication by any stretch of the imagination. I am not a doctor and cannot prescribe, treat, cure or diagnose any ailment.
Gabbi, is a woman, and you'd be hard pressed to *tell* her anything.Medication and nutrition/supplements are not mutually exclusive Thorp. I'm well educated and faithful in my *quality* supplement regime.
Yours, I'm afraid, doesn't stand up to objective scrutiny. This this forum is not for sales pitches, please take your wagon elsewhere.
Posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 11:37:36
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 10:22:57
Please forgive me for mistaking your gender. And, woe be me if I were to try to tell a woman anything. I’ve learned that much from my darling wife.
What is your quality supplement regime that is so impeccable?
What kind of objective scrutiny have you pursued regarding Original Limu?
I guess that is the nature of educated people, you and me and Lar. Something new comes around and we immediately are skeptical and even have a tendency to scoff at it. And, why? Because there is one heck of a lot of unscrupulous people who want to pull the wool over our eyes and we better be looking carefully unless we want to fall into their traps! I know I was probably far more skeptical than either you or Lar and I have studied on many front carefully this product and this company for over two years now. I was not about to jump into some kind of waste-of-time scam!
How can I not stand on the rooftops and scream my head off now that I have been proven wrong and realize that one of the greatest discoveries in health lies in this crazy seaweed extract liquid supplement, Original Limu? How can we say the peoples along the Pacific Asian coasts with their great vitality and longevity have got it wrong when they swear by seaweed? How can we deny the facts coming out of the government website for the National Library of Medicine (www.pubmed.gov) regarding fucoidan? How can you dismiss the excitement of the industry over this great discovery as evidenced by the rapidly growing number of copycat products trying to siphon business away from the Original Limu. Even prominent health magazines like this month’s (June, 2005) issue of Natural Health speak highly of Original Limu by name.
Look, in spite of my incredible skepticism with accusations that it was just some kind of scam sugar water, I, an educated person, now eat my words.
If you are suffering, you might do well to respond and take it yourself as I finally responded to an 80 year old woman who brought it to cranky ole me! She hounded me and told me I had better take it. To get her off of my back, I finally agreed and am now eternally grateful! I cannot live without the stuff. It is either take Original Limu or live in constant pain, have chronic congestion and allergy problems, have incredibly flaky skin and also be at constant risk for any and every bug that comes around.
There is a difference between an educated person and a closed-minded person! I am most thankful that I am an educated person who is also open-minded to new options eventually. My whole life has turned around because I did not let pride get in my way! How about you?
Again, I came upon this forum in response to a request regarding an inferior seaweed supplement called Sea Vegg that was introduced by a powerful infomercial involving Scott Kennedy. I had a moral obligation to set the record straight and let people know that that powerful infomercial was not appropriate for the tiny capsules of pulverized seaweed known as Sea Vegg but rather for the product the industry is now scrambling to emulate, Original Limu.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 12:55:44
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 11:37:36
> Please forgive me for mistaking your gender. And, woe be me if I were to try to tell a woman anything. I’ve learned that much from my darling wife.
>
> What is your quality supplement regime that is so impeccable?
>
> What kind of objective scrutiny have you pursued regarding Original Limu?
>
> I guess that is the nature of educated people, you and me and Lar. Something new comes around and we immediately are skeptical and even have a tendency to scoff at it. And, why? Because there is one heck of a lot of unscrupulous people who want to pull the wool over our eyes and we better be looking carefully unless we want to fall into their traps! I know I was probably far more skeptical than either you or Lar and I have studied on many front carefully this product and this company for over two years now. I was not about to jump into some kind of waste-of-time scam!
Crimeny, you sound just like Rod! How much alcohol did they put in your decanters?I'm not interested in answering your questions.
Though you *are* entertaining. I did mention that this forum is not for selling. Please take your sales pitch elsewhere. I really dislike to call on Dr.Bob, it feels like calling in Dad, however, I dislike both being condescended to, and informercial clones even more.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 13:07:20
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 12:55:44
>Crimeny, you sound just like Rod! How much alcohol did they put in your decanters?
Please don't jump to conclusions or say anything that can cause others to feel put down, even if they are sales people
Posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 13:45:36
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 12:55:44
In your last post, you said:
"I'm not interested in answering your questions."
I'm sorry, Ms. Gabbi, but you made some assertions in your previous post without support that obligated me to respond:"I'm well educated and faithful in my *quality* supplement regime."
"Yours, I'm afraid, doesn't stand up to objective scrutiny."
You implied that you had a far superior supplement regime and asserted that Original Limu does not stand up to objective scrutiny.
When a person refuses to explain their assertions it suggests to me that there is no basis for their assertions. Again, to me, it appears there is simply a closed mind striking out without reason or support. I would welcome you to prove me in error.
And please, Ms. Gabbi, I do apologize again if you thought in anyway that I was trying to be condescending to you. I just was trying to defend myself against what I consider to be false assertions. Thanks for your forgiveness.
Also, who is Rod? And, where do decanters of alcohol fit in? Please, clue in the confused.
And, by the way, I am not a part of any infomercial whatsoever. I was simply responding to a request asking for a response to a misleading infomercial.
And finally, I have the utmost respect for Dr.Bob and his forum where people can come together and discuss issues and get their questions answered without a tyrannical moderator stepping in censoring out of a whim and leaving his audience much the poorer for it.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 15:33:48
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 13:45:36
> When a person refuses to explain their assertions it suggests to me that there is no basis for their assertions. Again, to me, it appears there is simply a closed mind striking out without reason or support.
Nice Try, but I won't lose sleep over it.
>And, where do decanters of alcohol fit in? Please, clue in the confused.
Aldous Huxley "Brave New World"
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 19:11:20
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 13:45:36
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050510/msgs/503202.html
Again, to me, it appears there is simply a closed mind striking out without reason or support.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050510/msgs/502201.html
>You have an axe to grind
Please don't jump to conclusions about others.
Thanks.
Posted by vitaqueen on May 27, 2005, at 11:03:55
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg? » vitaqueen, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 8:57:22
First, thank you so much Larry for your response to my post. I really am very new to all this vitamin/herb/mineral supplementation, as new as last November after reading Dr. Strand's book (referenced in my initial post). So I'm like a hungry sponge eager to whet [pun intended] my appetite by seeking new and valid information. I so want to improve the quality of the rest of my life (triple bypass 2+ years ago I guess can do that to you), but I also want to be intelligent about it, and not jump at every "advertised miracle cure" that saturates all media.
Inasmuch as I have a "guarded faith" about the medical profession (AMA), I do trust at least my cardiologist (to a point). I don't want to take any prescribed medication unless absolutely positively necessary. The biggest issue right now (as has always been) is my cholesterol level, which it has been without a doubt determined that my body manufactures. My diet has absolutely no trans fats, I eat lean meats only and infrequently, there is no dairy whatsoever in my diet either, and yet without statin medication, my # is over 400. I refuse to put another statin in my body for many reasons, and it appears the red yeast rice (2400 mg/day) and/or acupuncture, dropped my # so far by about 150 points (but that was with a home test and I'm not sure how accurate they are.
I have been hearing and reading by the naysayers, that "cholesterol" is over-hyped due to the billions of $ in statin therapy, and that the homocysteine level is really the truer indicator of what's going on in the arteries. Since on B-complex, folic, and trimethylglycine (500 mg/day which I forgot to mention previously), my homocysteine dropped from 13.5 to 9.8. But my doctor is very concerned about the cholesterol # and wants me back on Crestor & Zetia, or the new one, Vytorin. I am fighting him tooth and nail on it though, because I hated the way my muscles and legs felt while on it.
> Sea vegg (or any other product) cannot cram into one capsule that which presently requires 26 tablets. It's a physical impossibility.Common sense at least, tells me that you are absolutely correct. I didn't think the product could "hurt" me in any way and ordered it to give it a try. But I believe I will be returning it. Thanks.
> Five mg of vanadium?!? 8 mg manganese? I'll get back to you on those doses.I look forward to it. What about Vitamin D?
> You could definitely cut some of these out, or reduce doses. In acute treatment of symptomatic conditions, some of these doses are required, but maintenance of health does not require the larger dose. You soon learn how to "listen to your body", and increase certain supps as needed.
Problem is right now, I'm not sure which ones are doing what for what. The combination gave me a somewhat sustained feeling of betterment; I guess I need to read up more on each individual one. Are there any that could harm me after a prologed use????
> You could halve the CoQ10. Halve the milk thistle. (I wouldn't take it every single day, anyway. Give your body a break from herbs. I would take it half the time, or less.)
The CoQ10 was referred by my cardiologist at the time I was taking statins, and this specific one is the only water soluable grade he is aware of. I WAS on 200mg/day, but dropped it to 100mg shortly after I stopped the statins. You feel I should still halve it?
Likewise, the 200 mg of Milk Thistle I started when on statins. Would 100 mg 3X a week still be too much?
> If you've been on the selenium for a few months, you could halve it.
I have been on the selenium (200 mcg) for 6 months; I will take that now every other day.
> You don't need to take the antioxidant polyphenol supps every single day. (lycopene, grape seed)Same for alpha lipoic acid and Vitamin C?
> Oral glutathione is a waste of money, in that the glutathione is digested. Glutathione is a protein, and it doesn't survive the stomach intact. You're better off just ignoring this, or substituting in some whey protein powder (high in cysteine). Or some other source of cysteine, such as N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC).OK. I have heard of NAC. What dosage would you recommend?
> Where's the zinc? I see no zinc on your list. It is the most likely mineral for deficient intake, of them all.
I was on 15-30 mg/day of zinc throughout the winter, but discontinued it in March; would you suggest I reinstitute zinc in my regimen?
> You would probably be doing just as well, health wise, if you took all this stuff every other day. That would cut your bill in half, right there. And, you'd till get all the benefits. Some of your blood numbers might shift a tiny bit, but I seriously doubt there would be any significant shifts back the wrong way.
This makes complete sense. I also forgot to mention . . . I am taking 600 mg/day of Omega 3 fish oil, glucosamine sulfate (1500 mg/day), and the aforementioned TMG. I tried Policosanol for about 2 months, but no change at all in the cholesterol. I am also taking whole enzymes and aloe juice (which has done wonders to get me off of Prevacid), and 400 mg acidopholous which likewise did wonders to alleviate a pain I had in my side for 4 years (diagnosed as IBS, although I seriously doubted it); nevertheless, I was also able to discontinue dicyclomine.
Larry, thanks again, and I am wide open to any suggestions you may have, or books to read, if it will help me to better understand all the health choices available.
I truly believe we are an overmedicated country in dire need of more "unbiased" and objective knowledge about prescription drugs versus vitamin, herb, and mineral supplementation.
Posted by tealady on May 28, 2005, at 20:51:01
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 11:37:36
<the peoples along the Pacific Asian coasts with their great vitality and longevity have got it wrong when they swear by seaweed>
HUH??? you been there? and longevituy goes with the cold climates
yeah another woman
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 29, 2005, at 1:15:26
In reply to Please Be Civil- Thorpe, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 19:11:20
Posted by TamW on May 30, 2005, at 9:21:31
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg? » Larry Hoover, posted by vitaqueen on May 27, 2005, at 11:03:55
My family and I tried Sea Vegg and at first I thought it was just me but when my 14 yr old son came to me with the same symptom I started to wonder so my son and I stopped taking the Sea Vegg but my husband was still taking it and now three weeks later he forgot to take it one day and WOW... Sea Vegg made us all feel tiered and Fatigue this was much more stronger on my son and I then on my husband but when he stopped taking it his energy came back he was feeling real tiered but did not know that it was caused by the Sea Vegg but now after almost a week off he is back to normal. We Could not find any one who had tried the stuff I search for a long time and or any symptoms from it but well we got our answer now so be carefull if you are trying Sea Vegg don't know if you would get the same result but all 3 of us who tried it got the same result at different levels but still same results. Mine was the worst I almost colapsed and I do have HypoThryroid Disease. Again Good Luck...
Posted by vitaqueen on May 30, 2005, at 9:57:32
In reply to I Tried Sea Vegg? NOT GOOD NEWS!, posted by TamW on May 30, 2005, at 9:21:31
> My family and I tried Sea Vegg and at first I thought it was just me but when my 14 yr old son came to me with the same symptom I started to wonder so my son and I stopped taking the Sea Vegg but my husband was still taking it and now three weeks later he forgot to take it one day and WOW... Sea Vegg made us all feel tiered and Fatigue this was much more stronger on my son and I then on my husband but when he stopped taking it his energy came back he was feeling real tiered but did not know that it was caused by the Sea Vegg but now after almost a week off he is back to normal. We Could not find any one who had tried the stuff I search for a long time and or any symptoms from it but well we got our answer now so be carefull if you are trying Sea Vegg don't know if you would get the same result but all 3 of us who tried it got the same result at different levels but still same results. Mine was the worst I almost colapsed and I do have HypoThryroid Disease. Again Good Luck...
I'm so glad I saw this. I have been on SeaVegg for about 10 days and noticed the same thing. Thought it was me. My legs felt drained, had no energy, and I was yawning all the time. Also felt what I thought were heart palpitations and just a general malaise. I stopped taking them about 3 days ago, and just now am beginning to feel somewhat normal and my strength is returning. This stuff is going back!!!! I wonder what's in it that caused this -- I'm now hesitant to take any seaweed product. Thanks for the post. Caveat Emptor!
Posted by Thorpe on May 30, 2005, at 20:25:57
In reply to Re: I Tried Sea Vegg? NOT GOOD NEWS!, posted by vitaqueen on May 30, 2005, at 9:57:32
That is one other problem buying Sea Vegg. There is no one to coach you or explain how to proceed. Also, it is one full dose with Sea Vegg and nothing in between. It is a one answer fits all! Sea Vegg presents its nutrition product very little differently from a medicine. They tell you just to take these capsules and trust me.
Actually, from the reports from vitaqueen and Tam W, I am coming to the conclusion that there is at least some potency to Sea Vegg to cause any kind of symptom at all. That is more than I expected of it. I still contend that it cannot hold a candle to the much more readily absorbable and dose-adjustable and colloidally dispersed liquid supplement that constitutes Original Limu through its proprietary extraction process.
What Tam W. and vitaqueen are experiencing most likely is like the appearance of little whitehead pimples on the crown of my head when I doubled the recommended dosage of Original Limu. The fact that it did generate the pimples was encouraging to me in that I have been involved with enough nutritional products like Barley Green to know that the body goes through an adjustment process with the introduction of a substantially different food source. This process is known as a detoxification phenomenon arising from the body's chemical machinery getting out of sync, out of balance, or out of homeostasis (equilibrium). Some parts of the body's chemical machinery start working in a superior fashion while other parts of the machinery down the chain of chemical processes are not yet ready for the increased output of the earlier chemical processes. The body gets out of balance. Another explanation of the detox effect is that there was insufficient chemical machinery to purge the body of the toxins that had developed in it and now, given the nutrients needed for the purging process, the body starts sloughing off toxins in a big way and thus a person experiences a detox effect.
The effects one experiences in about 20-50% of the people taking Original Limu can be mild headaches, mild flu-like symptoms, outbreaks of the skin, diarrhea, constipation, and possibly others. The reassuring aspect of detox is that one knows then that there is some potency to the supplement and it isn't just sugar water. The other reassuring aspect of detox is that it is only a temporary phenomenon. My detox lasted, however, much, much longer than the usual detox effects of only a few days to a week. Mine of the little whiteheads lingered for several months, but I could live with it because of the unbelievable benefits of the elimination of the pain in my right arm, the congestion of my sinuses, and the flakiness of my skin along with the huge boost in my immune system.
With Sea Vegg, you buy the product and are left to yourself. Also, the product is simply powdered dried seaweed. Again, Original Limu has colloidally dispersed minerals and trace metals and is much more readily absorbable into the blood system due to the 15 years of research and development that went into its extraction process. Also, Original Limu is sold through a network of people who can coach you and train you and answer your questions as they arise. You are not left wondering why you seem to be going backwards instead of forwards as vitaqueen and Tam W. have experienced. And, finally, you can modify your dosage easily with a liquid supplement but not with capsules.
Look, check with friends you know who come from Asian and South Pacific countries. I visited a physician last month and the doctor / nurse partnership, having come from the Philippines said that there was no explaining I needed to do. They ate limu moui seaweed all their lives as they were growing up and suggest that all the sickness they see in the USA could be greatly relieved and eliminated if people here would eat seaweed as well. The Korean couple running a restaurant serving seaweed soup makes the same claim.
There is no question of the value of seaweed especially of the fucoidan in it and the whole spectrum of minerals and trace metals in it. You do want to get the most for you money, however. Original Limu is the best as noted above and it comes with a network of people ready to help you get the most out of it. The next best option is to purchase your own fresh seaweed and go to the time and trouble to prepare it. The biggest downside of getting your own fresh seaweed is that you do not know its source. If it comes from polluted waters off the shores of industrialized countries especially, it could be more harmful than good. Just like the fish from certain regions of the world, seaweed can harbor dangerous levels of heavy metals lie mercury as a result of pollution of the waters. In fact, that is a concern regarding Sea Vegg. It is not harvested, as is the case with Original Limu, from the pristine pure waters off the Tongan Islands in the South Pacific where there are no sources of pollution like heavy industry or large-scale agriculture. In fact, if Sea Vegg happens to be harvested from seriously polluted waters, that could be another explanation for the symptoms experienced by vitaqueen and Tam W., but I have got to believe that Sea Vegg has got to have taken better care in its program than that, hopefully.
The problem with Americans is that they have so bought into the pill-pushing culture that they do not understand supplements. They look for a pill or capsule to work instantly. They look for the quick fix in spite of years of abuse we have heaped upon our bodies with the devastating Western lifestyle and diet. What is needed for a supplement to prove its value is, at the very least, 90 days. Time is needed to work one through the detox period and then after that to discover the proper dosage for seeing the extraordinary and often unexpected health benefits that can arise from the introduction of the nutrients long missing in the Western diet.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 30, 2005, at 21:11:57
In reply to Re: I Tried Sea Vegg? NOT GOOD NEWS!, posted by Thorpe on May 30, 2005, at 20:25:57
> I still contend that it cannot hold a candle to the much more readily absorbable and dose-adjustable and colloidally dispersed liquid supplement
>
> The problem with Americans is that they have so bought into the pill-pushing culture that they do not understand supplements.If you're connected with the other company, don't you think you should make that explicit? Also, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down or use more than one name at the same time. You've already been asked to be civil, so I'm going to block you from posting for 1 week.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#namesFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2005, at 9:32:25
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg? » Larry Hoover, posted by vitaqueen on May 27, 2005, at 11:03:55
> First, thank you so much Larry for your response to my post.
You're welcome.
> I really am very new to all this vitamin/herb/mineral supplementation, as new as last November after reading Dr. Strand's book (referenced in my initial post). So I'm like a hungry sponge eager to whet [pun intended] my appetite by seeking new and valid information. I so want to improve the quality of the rest of my life (triple bypass 2+ years ago I guess can do that to you), but I also want to be intelligent about it, and not jump at every "advertised miracle cure" that saturates all media.
If you needed a bypass, I'd be very certain to get your homocysteine levels as low as they can practically be maintained (i.e. ensure good intake of B12/folate (one mechanism), and/or trimethylglycine (another mechanism)), and to keep your triglycerides down. The latter can happen with low-carbing, and/or fish oil.
> Inasmuch as I have a "guarded faith" about the medical profession (AMA), I do trust at least my cardiologist (to a point). I don't want to take any prescribed medication unless absolutely positively necessary. The biggest issue right now (as has always been) is my cholesterol level, which it has been without a doubt determined that my body manufactures.
For most people (well over 95% of the population), the liver produces the cholesterol in the blood. Dietary cholesterol is a poor predictor of blood cholesterol, no matter what the "standard wisdom" says. The thing is, what variables signal the liver to produce cholesterol, *and* more importantly, what form does the cholesterol take? VLDL, LDL, HDL?
> My diet has absolutely no trans fats, I eat lean meats only and infrequently, there is no dairy whatsoever in my diet either, and yet without statin medication, my # is over 400.
What's your HDL/LDL ratio, though? And your triglyderides? From all that I've read, those are more important than total cholesterol. Restricting protein and fat might be your problem. It's not fat per se, that is the problem. Individual fatty acids do different things. Most saturated fats are actually cholesterol nuetral. They do nothing, vis a vis cholesterol. You're high-carbing?
> I refuse to put another statin in my body for many reasons, and it appears the red yeast rice (2400 mg/day) and/or acupuncture, dropped my # so far by about 150 points (but that was with a home test and I'm not sure how accurate they are.
I'd go with the red yeast supp as the independent variable.
Fish oil shifts the HDL/LDL ratio, and substantially lowers VLDL (i.e. triglycerides).
> I have been hearing and reading by the naysayers, that "cholesterol" is over-hyped due to the billions of $ in statin therapy, and that the homocysteine level is really the truer indicator of what's going on in the arteries. Since on B-complex, folic, and trimethylglycine (500 mg/day which I forgot to mention previously), my homocysteine dropped from 13.5 to 9.8.
Oh, maybe I should have read your post before I started replying. <grin>
> But my doctor is very concerned about the cholesterol # and wants me back on Crestor & Zetia, or the new one, Vytorin. I am fighting him tooth and nail on it though, because I hated the way my muscles and legs felt while on it.
There can be major muscle damage from these statins. I'm with you, listening to the messages from your body.
> > Sea vegg (or any other product) cannot cram into one capsule that which presently requires 26 tablets. It's a physical impossibility.
>
> Common sense at least, tells me that you are absolutely correct. I didn't think the product could "hurt" me in any way and ordered it to give it a try. But I believe I will be returning it. Thanks.Common sense is rather uncommon, it would seem.
> > Five mg of vanadium?!? 8 mg manganese? I'll get back to you on those doses.
>
> I look forward to it. What about Vitamin D?The UL (safe average daily intake, the Upper Limit) for vanadium is 1.8 mg/day. That said, acute treatment of vanadium deficiency (I'm talking the philosophy of treatment of mineral deficiency in general) would allow higher doses for a limited time (to saturate the tissues that need vanadium). So, let's assume that you have accomplished this task, and cut the vanadium down to 1 mg/day. You have to presume *some* intake from food.
The UL for manganese is 11 mg/day (more than I realized). So, your supplement is fine. That's one of the reasons I love questions. I'm not likely to forget these answers.
Vitamin D is undergoing a sea change in medical perception. The RDA used to be 200 IU, and it's gone up to 400 IU, and soon (if not already) it'll be 1000 IU. Recent research has shown that 4000 IU might be closer to the essential need (but, remember, your body does manufacture this stuff, if exposed to UV light). Despite all the hoo-haw about excess vitamin D being toxic, that actually refers to plant-source vitamin D, ergocalciferol. When given as a high-dose supplement, that stuff can be toxic, but it may simply be a case of the *conversion* of ergocalciferol to the active hormone form that induces toxic stress.
Anyway, too much information. I see nothing inherently wrong with 2000 IU vitamin D each day. I still have a little bit of caution in my mind, as vitamin D is really a steroid hormone. It's not a vitamin at all, but historically, it looked like one.
> > You could definitely cut some of these out, or reduce doses. In acute treatment of symptomatic conditions, some of these doses are required, but maintenance of health does not require the larger dose. You soon learn how to "listen to your body", and increase certain supps as needed.
>
> Problem is right now, I'm not sure which ones are doing what for what. The combination gave me a somewhat sustained feeling of betterment; I guess I need to read up more on each individual one. Are there any that could harm me after a prologed use????I'm going with the conservative medical people on the vanadium. There are people who routinely take 60-100 mg/day, without apparent adverse effects other than gastrointestinal disturbances, but fatigue and lethargy are also known side effects. In animal studies, similarly high doses of vanadium led to kidney failure. That's the basis for the setting of the UL at 1.8 mg/day (which happens to be about 100 times the typical dietary intake already).
> > You could halve the CoQ10. Halve the milk thistle. (I wouldn't take it every single day, anyway. Give your body a break from herbs. I would take it half the time, or less.)
>
> The CoQ10 was referred by my cardiologist at the time I was taking statins, and this specific one is the only water soluable grade he is aware of. I WAS on 200mg/day, but dropped it to 100mg shortly after I stopped the statins. You feel I should still halve it?Should? I said could.
CoQ10 is a fat-soluble vitamin. The forms that are supplied as gelcaps in oil have the highest bioavailability (up to 9 times the bang for the buck of dry forms). Usually, it's CoQ10 in rice bran oil, and I have no idea why they chose that oil.
> Likewise, the 200 mg of Milk Thistle I started when on statins. Would 100 mg 3X a week still be too much?
I just don't know if long-term use of herbs is safe, without breaks. I'm applying a general concept to the specific herb milk thistle. I'll go rooting around again, on that.
> > If you've been on the selenium for a few months, you could halve it.
>
> I have been on the selenium (200 mcg) for 6 months; I will take that now every other day.That should be fine. The UL is still a good deal higher than 200 mcg. You seemed like you were looking for ways to cut back on the 27? pills a day you were taking. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with taking that many. I'm trying to respond to that implicit question, "Can I cut back?".
> > You don't need to take the antioxidant polyphenol supps every single day. (lycopene, grape seed)
>
> Same for alpha lipoic acid and Vitamin C?Correct. You don't have to have them every single day. The half-lives of these substances are more than 24 hours.
Just for the record, the RDA is conceptually based on a full week's intake, divided by seven, to give an *average* daily requirement.
> > Oral glutathione is a waste of money, in that the glutathione is digested. Glutathione is a protein, and it doesn't survive the stomach intact. You're better off just ignoring this, or substituting in some whey protein powder (high in cysteine). Or some other source of cysteine, such as N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC).
>
> OK. I have heard of NAC. What dosage would you recommend?500 mg/day would be plenty, IMHO, but more than that if you suspect any sort of liver stress. Up to 2000 mg/day, I'd suggest.
You were taking 20 mg of glutathione. Glutathione is a tripeptide (three amino acids, joined together in a string, in a specific sequence). In crude terms, one third of the mass of the glutathione supp was cysteine, so you were getting maybe 7 mg of cysteine from it. 500 mg of NAC will provide 50 or more times that amount. (very crude ratio)
> > Where's the zinc? I see no zinc on your list. It is the most likely mineral for deficient intake, of them all.
>
> I was on 15-30 mg/day of zinc throughout the winter, but discontinued it in March; would you suggest I reinstitute zinc in my regimen?There is no mineral that you are more likely to not get from diet; zinc deficiency in American diets is widespread.
Look at this table:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/5/1367S/T4Please note that this table deals in Adequate Zinc Intake, which is an arbitrary number set at only 77% of the RDA. Even at that lower threshold, about half of all Americans are zinc deficient.
> > You would probably be doing just as well, health wise, if you took all this stuff every other day. That would cut your bill in half, right there. And, you'd till get all the benefits. Some of your blood numbers might shift a tiny bit, but I seriously doubt there would be any significant shifts back the wrong way.
>
> This makes complete sense. I also forgot to mention . . . I am taking 600 mg/day of Omega 3 fish oil,Especially with your cholesterol issue, I would strongly recommend you up your fish oil intake towards 5000 mg/day. Take fish oil with a meal, the fattier the better. I know you are trying to avoid fats (from what you said about diet), but that is wrong-headed. It gets complicated (the explanation), but high-carb diets promote cholesterol, via an inducible liver-mediated process called de novo lipogenesis. The fats are synthesized directly from carbs, and those fats just happen to be the ones that also signal the liver to produce cholesterol, particularly VLDL and LDL.
> glucosamine sulfate (1500 mg/day), and the aforementioned TMG. I tried Policosanol for about 2 months, but no change at all in the cholesterol. I am also taking whole enzymes and aloe juice (which has done wonders to get me off of Prevacid),
You had GERD? Try some bromelain.
> and 400 mg acidopholous which likewise did wonders to alleviate a pain I had in my side for 4 years (diagnosed as IBS, although I seriously doubted it); nevertheless, I was also able to discontinue dicyclomine.
B12 plays a role here, too. As do the enzymes.
> Larry, thanks again, and I am wide open to any suggestions you may have, or books to read, if it will help me to better understand all the health choices available.
Well, iherb has a good encyclopedia section.
http://www.iherb.com/health.html
Some of the entries are very conservative, vis a vis dose, though.
If you want the low-down on what a nutrient really does, and why you need the amount you do, you can search here:
http://lab.nap.edu/nap-cgi/discover.cgi?term=dietary+reference+intake&restric=NAP&mw=I've got the link set to "dietary reference intake", which is now the official term for what used to be the RDA. All the books that come up are the official ultra-conservative collective medical opinion of the Academies of Science. All the books are free to read, online. In each box that describes a particular book, on the right side, is a button with an eyeball symbol. That lets you read the whole thing online.
> I truly believe we are an overmedicated country in dire need of more "unbiased" and objective knowledge about prescription drugs versus vitamin, herb, and mineral supplementation.Oh, yeah.
I'm sometimes slow answering a thread, and sometimes forget to do so at all......so I don't mind getting reminders like you gave me. I don't mind at all.
If anybody else read down this far, I repeat, I don't mind reminders at all. Sometimes I'll read a post (which changes it's colour on screen), and then I'll forget which one it was. I often want to ponder some questions, look around a bit, and then I simply forget to follow through. Or, I'm busy, and it doesn't get to the top of my list.
Lar
Posted by vitaqueen on June 3, 2005, at 13:25:26
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg? » vitaqueen, posted by Larry Hoover on May 31, 2005, at 9:32:25
> For most people (well over 95% of the population), the liver produces the cholesterol in the blood. Dietary cholesterol is a poor predictor of blood cholesterol, no matter what the "standard wisdom" says. The thing is, what variables signal the liver to produce cholesterol, *and* more importantly, what form does the cholesterol take? VLDL, LDL, HDL?
> What's your HDL/LDL ratio, though? And your triglyderides? From all that I've read, those are more important than total cholesterol. Restricting protein and fat might be your problem. It's not fat per se, that is the problem. Individual fatty acids do different things. Most saturated fats are actually cholesterol nuetral. They do nothing, vis a vis cholesterol. You're high-carbing?
Goodness, this is all so interesting. Things your doctor never tells you. And yes, I have a tendency to high carb. I find myself craving carbs and I wish I could stop. By the way, the carbs you refer to do not include vegetables, fruit, and whole grains, right?
My last lab bloodwork was in February after I had stopped Crestor & Zetia in November (but before Red Yeast Rice) -- My #s were LDL (389), HDL (51), VLDL (47), Triglycerides (235) and Homocysteine (9.8). As I mentioned before, I took a home test in late April (after being on Red Yeast Rice 2400/day for a little over a month), and the total # was 298 (no breakdown available). I'm scheduled for another lab test next week. They usually order the basic blood tests -- since I have been taking all these supplements for so many months, is there a specific panel I should ask the doctor to order for me, other than the routine?
> I'd go with the red yeast supp as the independent variable.
Should I increase the daily dosage? Are there unsafe levels of red yeast rice? I have heard that red yeast rice is in most statin medications. Is that true, and if so, do they carry similar side effects after long-term use?
> Fish oil shifts the HDL/LDL ratio, and substantially lowers VLDL (i.e. triglycerides).
I did not know this. I have only been taking 600mg/day. As you note later, I should be on 5000 -- do you recommend a certain type? I was ordering for awhile a product from Iceland Health, claiming to be the only pure fish oil -- yada yada -- you know the old story. I would like one that doesn't repeat on me (that one didn't), and I do take it with a meal.
And what about flaxseed oil. Take in addition to fish oil? Take instead of? Would like to understand the beneficial differences between the two, especially as it pertains to my condition.
> The UL (safe average daily intake, the Upper Limit) for vanadium is 1.8 mg/day. That said, acute treatment of vanadium deficiency (I'm talking the philosophy of treatment of mineral deficiency in general) would allow higher doses for a limited time (to saturate the tissues that need vanadium). So, let's assume that you have accomplished this task, and cut the vanadium down to 1 mg/day. You have to presume *some* intake from food.To be honest with you, I'm not quite sure why I'm still taking vanadium, except perhaps because I read this about it . . . "Vanadium is a trace element that was named after the Scandinavian goddess of youth and beauty. It is necessary for cellular metabolism and for the formation of bones and teeth. Vanadium inhibits cholesterol synthesis and plays a vital role in growth and reproduction of the body. This mineral has been shown to improve insulin utilization, resulting in improved glucose tolerance, and in recent years. Foods that contain Vanadium are dill, fish, olives, meat, radishes, snap beans, vegetable oils, and whole grains."
Maybe it was the bit about cholesterol that got me -- I'm obsessed with getting it down without meds. Is there really any benefit from garlic pills?
> I'm going with the conservative medical people on the vanadium. There are people who routinely take 60-100 mg/day, without apparent adverse effects other than gastrointestinal disturbances, but fatigue and lethargy are also known side effects. In animal studies, similarly high doses of vanadium led to kidney failure. That's the basis for the setting of the UL at 1.8 mg/day (which happens to be about 100 times the typical dietary intake already).
Now you got my attention -- I should mention that I only have one kidney (congenital), but 5000mcg/day doesn't sound dangerous. Perhaps I should discontinue completely? Is there anything else I should be careful of taking that could be harmful to my kidney?
> Vitamin D is undergoing a sea change in medical perception. The RDA used to be 200 IU, and it's gone up to 400 IU, and soon (if not already) it'll be 1000 IU. Recent research has shown that 4000 IU might be closer to the essential need (but, remember, your body does manufacture this stuff, if exposed to UV light). Despite all the hoo-haw about excess vitamin D being toxic, that actually refers to plant-source vitamin D, ergocalciferol. When given as a high-dose supplement, that stuff can be toxic, but it may simply be a case of the *conversion* of ergocalciferol to the active hormone form that induces toxic stress.Very interesting. Isn't there Vitamin D in fish oil?
> CoQ10 is a fat-soluble vitamin. The forms that are supplied as gelcaps in oil have the highest bioavailability (up to 9 times the bang for the buck of dry forms). Usually, it's CoQ10 in rice bran oil, and I have no idea why they chose that oil.
I may decide to stay with 100mg/day of CoQ10 -- my question is . . . can I do any long term damage by taking it every day?
> I just don't know if long-term use of herbs is safe, without breaks. I'm applying a general concept to the specific herb milk thistle. I'll go rooting around again, on that.
Thank you, I would find that helpful as I want to keep my liver healthy, but I don't want to kill it with kindness either.
> > > You don't need to take the antioxidant polyphenol supps every single day. (lycopene, grape seed) . . . The half-lives of these substances are more than 24 hours. . . . Just for the record, the RDA is conceptually based on a full week's intake, divided by seven, to give an *average* daily requirement.I have always wondered about that. It is good to know.
> > > Oral glutathione is a waste of money, in that the glutathione is digested. Glutathione is a protein, and it doesn't survive the stomach intact. You're better off just ignoring this, or substituting in some whey protein powder (high in cysteine). Or some other source of cysteine, such as N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) . . . 500 mg/day would be plenty, IMHO, but more than that if you suspect any sort of liver stress. Up to 2000 mg/day, I'd suggest.I'm not aware of any liver stress now that I'm off statins, but I bought the NAC (600mg was all I could find) and will incorporate it. Explain what this "cysteine" is versus the one in homocysteine (which I'm trying to lower)>
>
> There is no mineral that you are more likely to not get from diet; zinc deficiency in American diets is widespread.OK . . . you convinced me. I will reinstate it.
> Especially with your cholesterol issue, I would strongly recommend you up your fish oil intake towards 5000 mg/day. Take fish oil with a meal, the fattier the better. I know you are trying to avoid fats (from what you said about diet), but that is wrong-headed.
I do have olive oil every day -- is this enough fat? I know to stay away from the hydrogenated oils and trans fats, but are there any "saturated" fats that are good for you? I was always taught to stay away from those and lean toward the poly and mono fats.
>It gets complicated (the explanation), but high-carb diets promote cholesterol, via an inducible liver-mediated process called de novo lipogenesis. The fats are synthesized directly from carbs, and those fats just happen to be the ones that also signal the liver to produce cholesterol, particularly VLDL and LDL.
I find this ever so fascinating. I just wish I could figure out the right formula for weight loss/control. Also, know of anything that either restricts cortisol or helps reduce it? Ever heard of Holy Basil? I want to lose weight, but safely.
> You had GERD? Try some bromelain.
I definitely will! Never heard of this before. Is this something you take as needed?
> Well, iherb has a good encyclopedia section.
>
> http://www.iherb.com/health.html
>
> If you want the low-down on what a nutrient really does, and why you need the amount you do, you can search here:
> http://lab.nap.edu/nap-cgi/discover.cgi?term=dietary+reference+intake&restric=NAP&mw=
>
> I've got the link set to "dietary reference intake", which is now the official term for what used to be the RDA. All the books that come up are the official ultra-conservative collective medical opinion of the Academies of Science. All the books are free to read, online. In each box that describes a particular book, on the right side, is a button with an eyeball symbol. That lets you read the whole thing online.Wow! This is great and invaluable information. Thank you so much. Up to now, I've been sort of floundering through.
> I'm sometimes slow answering a thread, and sometimes forget to do so at all......so I don't mind getting reminders like you gave me. I don't mind at all.I was just concerned that you may not of seen the reply. Again . . . a thousand and one thanks for your patience and time.
One last (I think) question, Larry. There are so many different companies to choose from. I try to lean toward Solgar because of the vegetarian capsules, and TwinLab -- what other manufacturer would you recommend that sells high quality supplements?
I am very appreciative of your knowledge and guidance, Larry. After rereading this, I am a bit embarrassed that I've asked you so many questions. I hope I'm not taking advantage of your kindess. Thanks again and have a great weekend.
Donna
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 4, 2005, at 20:45:24
In reply to Re: thanks for posting that (nm) » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dr. Bob on May 29, 2005, at 1:15:26
You're welcome Dr. Bob.
Posted by Anti-Bill on June 9, 2005, at 12:28:28
In reply to Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg?, posted by Chris O on March 10, 2005, at 15:41:09
> Because I have such trouble sleeping, I often say up into the wee hours of the night watching television. Last night I was flicking through the channels during "infomerical time" (2:00am-4:00am) and ran across this guy promoting his "Sea Vegg" capsules. Perhaps others here are more versed in the benefits of sea vegetables than me, but his whole theory was that increasing consumption of seaweed could do away with all sorts of modern degenerative diseaes. I'm just curious: Does anyone here eat sea vegetables and if so...has it affected your mood? Is anyone here aware of others who have benefitted from integrating sea veggies into their diet? Just curious.
>
> Sincerely,
> Chris
>I saw the infomercial and what Scott Kennedy was very confusing and my "Scam" radar immediately went up. A lot of what he said was not on target and he seemed to be spewing a lot of the garbage that I've been hearing all too often. A couple of things the raised my eyebrows :
1. Our blood has the composition as the sea... Our body salinity is 0.9% where the oceans are 3.5%. I fail to see the link there between sea foods and human physiology.
2. Plants recieve all seven colors of light.. I have no clue what he's talking about here. Light that travels through a prism is better than unrefracted light?
3. Plants grow two feet a day because of their growth hormones... Plant growth hormones called auxins have nothing to due with your growth.
In the informercial he shows piles of papers of studies supporting his claim that algae will cure all your ills. Based on some nonsense a supposed trained biologist/nutritionist says on TV I decided to call to get more information, because that's what the infomercial says. When I spoke to the person on the phone they just reiterated the sales pitch from the show and asked me how much I wanted to buy. I expalined that I was skeptical and wanted more information. The sales rep. then yelled at me saying " I don't need to defend Mr. Kennedy", referred me to the website and hung up. So I went to the website and the only studies I saw we two papers by the same authors (from the same study about sea weed and cancer prevention).
Another side note: I see all of other health claims by natural health remediesbut the worst is pH. All the hoohah about blood pH. The biggest affect on blood pH is CO2 levels which your body is very capable of managing by producing its own natural buffers. Your body pH is 7.4 if its not than there is something seriously wrong and its going to take a lot more than any vitimin pill to fix it.
As far as nutrition we all agree that its important to have a balanced diet and vitimins and minerals are very important for your well being but we need to keep in perspective what the real state of health in the U.S. is: We are living longer than ever before, many diseases people suffered from are completely (or almost) eliminated. These modern day snake-oil salespersons only goal, it appears, is to make you think the state of health is in shambles, doctors are out for your money not your health, and the only way to save your self is to give them your money so you can eat processed algae. I have faith in most americans to see that that is all they are after.
I hope I've made my point.
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