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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by katia on December 17, 2004, at 14:51:22
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate » Rob25, posted by barbaracat on December 17, 2004, at 14:35:21
Hi Barb,
I believe that metabolizing stuff is true. That's the type of nutritionist I saw. his website www.bloodph.com and that book I showed you "The Nutrition Solution" by Kristal and Haig.It's one avenue of support in all this. A naturpath that specializes in mood disorders is just what I need.
I went in to see my pdoc like a good little girl to find out if I'm using my lightbox effectively and to find out more about SJW and Li. Orotate. His answer to all the above questions was "I don't know". It was a very telling session that costs my credit card $115. It was a joke. He works strictly on pharma meds alone and that is all he knows. I got no input from him at all, other than yes I could phase out Paxil and add SJW. I figured my payment for the sessions go towards the free meds he gives me.I really want to work with someone who knows about pharma and holistic methods - integral. An ideal pdoc would work WITH a holistic naturopath don't you think?
Anyone know of this in the BAy Area of Cal?
Posted by barbaracat on December 17, 2004, at 14:57:30
In reply to Li Or. and Light Boxes » Rob25, posted by katia on December 17, 2004, at 1:34:48
Katia,
You do not, I repeat YOU DO NOT have a big bottom!!!!!! I'm sure that red dress is gonna look bitchin'. But I do know about the ugly duckling/swan thing. I think bipolar and depression does something weird with the face muscles and brings out bad hair day genes.Does SJW make one manic? When I first started taking it (start slow, BTW, only 1 the first week, 2 the second and stop there for a while to see how it goes). I definitely felt a lift, a nice little buzz like that first nice buzzy feeling from a bump up in Lamictal. I felt a little hypomanic, but in a nice way and then it smoothed out. I was trying all different sorts and the one I started out on was the Perika form (HBC Protocols uses the Indena form - different pharaceutical companies and formulations). Perika, I found out is the most activating and then Kira, so they're not the ones we want. I also tried Flora brand whole herb infused in olive oil and I think I liked that one alot, it was very gentle. I was taking 2 Flora's along with the 2 HBC's and then ran out of Flora.
To answer your question, if I take 3 HBCs a day I feel irritated and unsettled. It goes away when I just take 2, which is probably due to the bipolar thing.
I'm going to try an experiment and order some of the Flora again. No one knows how the heck SJW works, some say its the hypericin content, others say the hyperformin, but no one knows. I figure I'll cover all my bases and add a full spectrum brand, maybe adding 1 extra Flora since I seem to be strugging with some low-level depression blahs. This combo made me feel the best: 2 of the HBC and 2 of the Flora. I'll have to experiment on dosages. I need a set of test tubes for Christmas.
When are you going to your Grandma's Birthday party? And don't forget, if a gorgeous gal in a red dress didn't have some kind of a hypomanic wild streak going, everyone at the party would be disappointed!
Hey ya'll!
> Dman! I just ordered SJW today! I don't want to get manic over it. Like you Rob. But I'm on Trileptal too.
> I think that this light box is making me slightly manic....
> anyone else have this experience?
>
> I just bought a GREAT red dress for my Grandmother's 100th b. day party in Miami!!! It took my five freakin hours to find something to fit into my BIIIIIIIGGGGG bottom.
> I can be an ugly duckling one minute and the next the beautiful swan. it's uncanny. kinda like bipolar swings...but I don't have a red dress now I do!
> Barb, do you find that SJW causes mania? I seriously hope not!
> Katia
>
>
Posted by katia on December 17, 2004, at 15:21:24
In reply to Re: Li Or. and Light Boxes » katia, posted by barbaracat on December 17, 2004, at 14:57:30
Thanks Barbara for your kind words...however, I just hide it well. Even the lady at Macy's couldn't believe that nothing was fitting. It's too long in the legs, too big in the waist and too tight in the, um, bottom area. I have a disfigurment!
Wow! you really do need test tubes! I'm just hoping that the stuff I ordered (from your recommendation) works and I can phase out of the Paxil. I have constant nausea and dizziness. I"m not sure what it is from. Maybe the light box, maybe the paxil...it really sucks and wears me out quickly.
Have you contacted that referral yet? :-)
take care love,
Katia
Posted by barbaracat on December 17, 2004, at 17:17:32
In reply to Holistic pdoc in SF Bay area? » barbaracat, posted by katia on December 17, 2004, at 14:51:22
As far as your pdoc, the fact that he's even willing to entertain SJW vs. Paxil is amazing (although I have no doubt you know more about the subject than he does). My pdoc, I think I mentioned, was pretty cool and hip to alot of stuff - a real Bikenstock kinda guy (literally). But, other than fish oil, he wouldn't talk about anything that didn't have all kinds of rigorous clinical trials. And guess who sponsors all those trials? Not the herb and vitamin companies, that's for sure. Have you seen prices for prescriptions lately? Arrrgghh! If this guy is giving you enough freebies, keep him! Holistically minded pdocs are a rare breed anyway.
You are so right. You'd think the naturopaths, alternative and pdocs would be working together more. As much as I appreciate my holistic doctor and naturopath, they really don't know much about psychiatry and vice versa. They have much to share with each other and there's so much to know. There are Orthomolecular Psychiatrists but I don't think the different psychiatric disciplines speak to each other. Ego.
As I mentioned to Rob, I'm going to be seeing a new naturopath whose clinic specializes in mood disorders. The way that I found this place was I called our local naturopathic college and asked if their lab did testing for kryptopyroluria, the most common test for autism and bipolar. I asked for some names of doctors that use the tests and they a recommendation.
Here's a site to look at. It's got names of some labs around the country that do this testing and they'll probably be able to give you recommendations.
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=Pyroluria
You could also try Bastyr University in Seattle, WA. I don't know who you'd talk to but they're the main naturopathic college in the country and should have a good database. I do know of a few doctors in the Bay Area you should NOT go to, (big bucks and not much bang for them) so when you get a hit, run it by me.
> Hi Barb,
> I believe that metabolizing stuff is true. That's the type of nutritionist I saw. his website www.bloodph.com and that book I showed you "The Nutrition Solution" by Kristal and Haig.
>
> It's one avenue of support in all this. A naturpath that specializes in mood disorders is just what I need.
> I went in to see my pdoc like a good little girl to find out if I'm using my lightbox effectively and to find out more about SJW and Li. Orotate. His answer to all the above questions was "I don't know". It was a very telling session that costs my credit card $115. It was a joke. He works strictly on pharma meds alone and that is all he knows. I got no input from him at all, other than yes I could phase out Paxil and add SJW. I figured my payment for the sessions go towards the free meds he gives me.
>
> I really want to work with someone who knows about pharma and holistic methods - integral. An ideal pdoc would work WITH a holistic naturopath don't you think?
> Anyone know of this in the BAy Area of Cal?
>
>
Posted by barbaracat on December 17, 2004, at 17:48:56
In reply to Re: Li Or. and Light Boxes » barbaracat, posted by katia on December 17, 2004, at 15:21:24
> Thanks Barbara for your kind words...however, I just hide it well. Even the lady at Macy's couldn't believe that nothing was fitting. It's too long in the legs, too big in the waist and too tight in the, um, bottom area. I have a disfigurment!
**A disfigurement! Nobody listen to her! You are so full of ka-ka!!! (Hmmm, maybe that's your bum problem....). Seriously though, ha ha, those 'tummy slimming' panties work wonders ('bummy slimming'?).
**Here's what I would do. I would NOT phase off Paxil too quickly until you definitely feel a lift from the SJW. It may not work for you and you don't want to be without. The only reason I was meandering back there about one brand over another and dosages was like thinking out loud. I definitely felt at my best after a very long hard spell when I was doing 2 HBC Protocols and 2 Floras a day. This might be because I had been in such a dark place that I just needed the extra SJW in the form of the Flora which I eventually ran out of. It might also be because I had both on hand and wanted to use up both. I only know that one day I woke up and saw light shining around life again.
If SJW is going to work for you, as a bipolar you can't do any better than the HBC Protocols, especially because it's smooth and even, compared with all the other pharmaceutical grade brands, PLUS it contains a higher dosage of both active constituents, where most contain only one constituent (hyperforin or hypericin) or the other. It's also waaaaayyyy cheaper than any other brand. It's the cadillac, in my opinion of pharmaceutical SJW.
I heard my husband praising it's virtues to a friend the other day. He did OK on zoloft for a while then it pooped. He's had nothing but good to say for SJW. He is not bipolar but he is dysthymic and probably has SAD and he could be the SJW poster-child, although I'd be more assured if he were also BP).
The only unknown is whether there's something else going on that hasn't been isolated, that's in the whole plant, such as the Flora brand, that acts just a wee bit more effectively as I found after my long dark haul last winter. So, I was just then (and now) meandering, trying to pry it out how I could experiment on myself, but keep you aware of the various forms the different effects SJW can take. It's so unlike a standardized capsule and it just takes experimentation.
No, I haven't called her. I will, I definitely will. If you get a chance to talk to her and mentioned me, let her know it will happen. This time of year is just so crazy. No excuse, but at least an explanation. - Luv, B.
>
> Wow! you really do need test tubes! I'm just hoping that the stuff I ordered (from your recommendation) works and I can phase out of the Paxil. I have constant nausea and dizziness. I"m not sure what it is from. Maybe the light box, maybe the paxil...it really sucks and wears me out quickly.
>
> Have you contacted that referral yet? :-)
> take care love,
> Katia
Posted by doug9732 on April 19, 2005, at 22:42:42
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by bruce_w6 on April 17, 2004, at 14:53:08
I've been taking one Advanced Research 120mg tablet a day since last August, and after two weeks my 50+ year old obsessional anxiety problem had noticeably improved. I have a high body weight, so it's impressive to get noticeable results on one tablet a day. I also take tri-methyl-glycine ( TMG ) for depression; it's an s-adenosyl-methionine precursor, and my experience indicates it is better than all of the alternatives, and also excellent for general health!
Posted by KaraS on April 25, 2005, at 15:04:01
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by doug9732 on April 19, 2005, at 22:42:42
> I've been taking one Advanced Research 120mg tablet a day since last August, and after two weeks my 50+ year old obsessional anxiety problem had noticeably improved. I have a high body weight, so it's impressive to get noticeable results on one tablet a day. I also take tri-methyl-glycine ( TMG ) for depression; it's an s-adenosyl-methionine precursor, and my experience indicates it is better than all of the alternatives, and also excellent for general health!
There have been various threads on this in the past. Some have found it very helpful, others didn't. "LOOPS" takes it so if you do a search, you might want to include her posting name.
Posted by katia on May 5, 2005, at 14:44:56
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate » Barbaracat, posted by Rob25 on December 16, 2004, at 22:40:05
Anyone tried this? Results?
Posted by katia on May 19, 2005, at 15:52:17
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate?, posted by stebu on March 8, 2004, at 21:52:06
Hi,
Are you still on Li. Orotate? How much? And how much Trileptal? I'm on 450 of Tril. and 12.5 Seroquel and st. jOhn's Wort. However, I feel a depression creeping in. I just ordered Li. Orotate (nasal spray) and am wanting to take it for the depression and along with that reduce my Trileptal to 300mg a day.How has it helped with depression?
Thanks-
Katia> I've been on Lithium Orotate since I wrote in Sept/93. My depression has not come back. I've been able to titrate off my effexor. This is the time of year when I become hypomanic. As I began to speed up my pdoc increased my Lithium orotate, and I responded right away. I do have a tiny blood level of lithium, and continue to take a small dose of trileptal. I don't have any side effects from Lithium Orotate. I think it's great.
Posted by katia on May 20, 2005, at 15:12:24
In reply to Re: anyone tried lithium orotate? » stebu, posted by katia on May 19, 2005, at 15:52:17
Anyone ever experience this?
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 9:11:29
In reply to Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate?, posted by katia on May 20, 2005, at 15:12:24
> Anyone ever experience this?
That's an acknowledged side effect of lithium itself. Try a lower dose.
Lar
Posted by katia on May 21, 2005, at 12:38:34
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate? » katia, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 9:11:29
> > Anyone ever experience this?
>
> That's an acknowledged side effect of lithium itself. Try a lower dose.
>
> LarYes, I realize that. But I thought that the advantages of Li. Orotate were to eliminate that side effect. I got it terribly on Li. Carb and was hoping that it wouldn't be the same. That was more my question....
I can't take a lower dose because I'm doing the nasal spray and only doing one squirt. I started two days ago and am finishing my last quarter in grad school and have lots of reading. It took me all day to read only 30 pages!! I have to finish the entire book of 200 pages by next week. I don't have time to be slow and stupid.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 13:57:30
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate?, posted by katia on May 21, 2005, at 12:38:34
> I can't take a lower dose because I'm doing the nasal spray and only doing one squirt. I started two days ago and am finishing my last quarter in grad school and have lots of reading. It took me all day to read only 30 pages!! I have to finish the entire book of 200 pages by next week. I don't have time to be slow and stupid.
I had never heard of nasal lithium orotate.....the website says one spray provides about 3 mg of lithium orotate (4 sprays is 14 mg). http://www.lithiumorotate.com/dosage.html
That is a trivial amount of lithium, really. I have no idea just how the pharmacokinetics change with nasal delivery, but that is not much to think about. The tablets of lithium orotate that I have supply 120 mg.
Maybe it's the GABA? The thing is, if the spray isn't helping, then it's no good for you.
Lar
Posted by katia on May 21, 2005, at 14:13:54
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate? » katia, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 13:57:30
Hi,
That's exactly what I have the HBC one. I'm really sensitive though to EVERYTHING so I didn't take it today and I feel a lift. However two days of it....I'm not sure. It could be the mild depression I feel. But I feel a lift today, so who knows! I'll monitor from here. I also went from 450 mg of Trileptal to 300mg two days ago as well. Maybe that's helping with a fog/mild depression. I'll do one thing at a time. I'll give this reduction a few days and then add the Li. again and see what happens (only if my mood doesn't remain lifted). My main thing is depression so being on just a mood stablizer seems silly...but I also took some opium last night (hehe....ok, not opium but just 1/2 of a vicodin for a terrible headache). That definitely mellows one out nicely.
thanks for your comments.
Katia
Posted by barbaracat on May 21, 2005, at 14:43:04
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate? » Larry Hoover, posted by katia on May 21, 2005, at 14:13:54
Vicodin, or hydrocodone, is enough to lift me out of a terrible mood. I wish doctors's would consider it as first line mood therapy. I have never gotten addicted to it. I use it for fibromyalgia pain, but it has the nice secondary quality of removing my depression, sometimes for good because I end up having a terrific time on it.
I hope you keep up that Li Orotate nasal a while longer to see, for the rest of us, if it's really doing anything. Cheers and hope you're feeling better, Ms. Kitty. - Barbara
> That's exactly what I have the HBC one. I'm really sensitive though to EVERYTHING so I didn't take it today and I feel a lift. However two days of it....I'm not sure. It could be the mild depression I feel. But I feel a lift today, so who knows! I'll monitor from here. I also went from 450 mg of Trileptal to 300mg two days ago as well. Maybe that's helping with a fog/mild depression. I'll do one thing at a time. I'll give this reduction a few days and then add the Li. again and see what happens (only if my mood doesn't remain lifted). My main thing is depression so being on just a mood stablizer seems silly...but I also took some opium last night (hehe....ok, not opium but just 1/2 of a vicodin for a terrible headache). That definitely mellows one out nicely.
> thanks for your comments.
> Katia
Posted by katia on May 21, 2005, at 15:05:27
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate? » katia, posted by barbaracat on May 21, 2005, at 14:43:04
Thanks Ms. BarbaraCat,
I will retry it in a couple of days. I want to do one thing at a time.
I'm still eyeing that cymbalta too.
Is it as terrible with the w/drawals as Effexor, do you know? That's what I'm FRIGHTENED of.
Posted by barbaracat on May 21, 2005, at 15:43:18
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate? » barbaracat, posted by katia on May 21, 2005, at 15:05:27
I forgot to take Cymbalta a couple days and if anything I felt better. As long as I don't drink, the day starts out pretty good, and that's when I notice the effects of Cym best - the morning after.
Supposedly, because it has a 12 hours half life it's been said to be rough, with some people feeling withdrawal the same day. I never had that experience. But maybe because my dose is so low.
I'm up to 60 pellets now, hoping to wipe away some depression that snuck up on me around my brother/me issues and bringing up grief for my Mom that just isn't healing. I think I need some therapy. I'm feeling alot of sadness lately. It's all appropriate sadness, of course, but I'd also like to experience a little happiness too cause I have a lot to get done and depression is soooo counterproductive. Love, B.
> Thanks Ms. BarbaraCat,
> I will retry it in a couple of days. I want to do one thing at a time.
> I'm still eyeing that cymbalta too.
> Is it as terrible with the w/drawals as Effexor, do you know? That's what I'm FRIGHTENED of.
>
Posted by Trendy Wendy on July 7, 2005, at 20:26:41
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate? » katia, posted by barbaracat on May 21, 2005, at 15:43:18
Just HAD to chime in here - have found all info in previous posts of high interest. I have recently come to accept my diagnosis of bi-polar (accepted long ago that I have borderline personality disorder and a couple other problems). We have yet to find anything that truly relieves my depression and luckily I only suffer from hypomania, but that's enough. I, too, tried lithium orotate and while I didn't experience a dramatic parting of the clouds, I sure as hell had a plunge in mood when I went OFF (3 different times), so I guess it was doing something. I have continued until this week when my latest psychiatrist Rx'd lithium carbonate and I'm switching over; we'll see what happens. I'm also titrating on Lamictal, so who knows...
Posted by Arabela on September 24, 2005, at 3:19:44
In reply to Re: Cognitive blunting on lithium orotate? » katia, posted by barbaracat on May 21, 2005, at 15:43:18
After my son commited siucide almost 2 years ago,I started having depression problems.I only slept and went to my one job,I lost the other.Did not want to go on prescription drugs and so I started Li orotate 2 weeks ago.I sleep better,I funcion better.I have more energy.I also was taking 5HTP before for extended period of time for my migraines,those are gone now too.I feel more "normal" now compare to just few days ago.I wonder if I could take the 5HTP w/Li orotate.Could it work together even better?
Posted by LOOPS on September 24, 2005, at 8:47:24
In reply to nubby here on Li Orotate, posted by Arabela on September 24, 2005, at 3:19:44
Hi Arabela -
I've taken lithium orotate with 5htp before with success. However be careful not to take too much - I found 100mg with 2 tabs lith orotate made me very tired, antisocial and 'blah'. One tab and 50mg 5htp works a treat if I'm feeling very mixed up /anxious.
Both 5htp and lith orotate both work on anxiety for me - not really depression, although the lith effect must be quite subtle. The combo might have a different effect on you depending on how 5htp makes you feel?
THese days I take them at different times of the day - lith in the morning and 5htp in the evening (sometimes anyway).
Loops
Posted by doug9732 on September 24, 2005, at 12:42:33
In reply to nubby here on Li Orotate, posted by Arabela on September 24, 2005, at 3:19:44
5-HTP is converted in the body to serotonin and then melatonin, so it should normally be taken in the evening before sleeping.
Lithium orotate may cause lethargy in some, but not drowsiness, so it can be taken at any time of day. I use one a day for anxiety, not depression, and it seems to help.
TMG ( tri-methyl-glycine ) is my favorite anti-depressant. It is safe, fast acting, and can be taken at any time of day. It is good for avoiding heart attacks by lowering homocysteine, avoiding cancer by enabling DNA repair, and improving mood by raising s-adenosyl methionine levels. TMG is an unpatentable wonder-drug that few people know about.
Posted by LOOPS on September 24, 2005, at 15:44:18
In reply to 5-HTP can cause drowsiness, posted by doug9732 on September 24, 2005, at 12:42:33
Hi -
not to put anyone off as everyone reacts differently, but I really disliked TMG. It made me very dysphoric and put my anxiety through the roof. I was an angry crying mess by the end of the day - I took about half the usual dose - 400mg? However I have heard many positive anecdotes - guess it just depends how you're brain's wired.
People say TMG is similar to taking SAM-e but cheaper - well not quite for me - SAM-e made me anxious too, and gave me wicked insomnia with very fast heartbeat. Both things made me feel really weird, but SAM-e gave me racing thoughts.
Loops
Posted by Arabela on September 24, 2005, at 22:24:09
In reply to 5-HTP can cause drowsiness, posted by doug9732 on September 24, 2005, at 12:42:33
Did not know about TMG.5HTP worked well,I took 2 at night,1-2 during the day.I don't have migraines anymore only weaker one evey now and then.I was On Zoloft 4 years ago,but 4 months later I took myself off-slowly,I could not sleep,thats why I went to 5HTP.I did try Prozac and had strange side effects.Now it even make sense to me why I don't have my anxiety attacks-5HTP!I have mild OCD too and use to go through stages of bad anger-up and down all my life.After my sons death I just slipped in coma like life.It is easier now and the li orotate seems work but I feel really hyper at times,more than usually.I will try the TMG,but can I take it together w/li orotate?Thank you all for info!
Posted by barbaracat on September 25, 2005, at 15:13:00
In reply to TMG, posted by LOOPS on September 24, 2005, at 15:44:18
Hi Loops,
I'm sure you're familiar with Pfeiffer Institute/Dr. Walsh orthomolecular theories of mood disorders but the fact that you have such a pronounced negative reaction to TMG struck me as a possible over-methylation condition.There's much about Walsh's theories that are contradictory and I wish someone else would pick up the ball on his research, but if you haven't already explored this route, you might get some clues.
Here's a link:
Posted by LOOPS on September 25, 2005, at 15:45:22
In reply to Re: TMG » LOOPS, posted by barbaracat on September 25, 2005, at 15:13:00
Hi Barbaracat -
thanks for the link - I had heard about that stuff but hadn't seen that particular table. Very interesting reading - but a shame nothing seems to fit me completely! However the personality stuff fitted.
Loops
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