![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 78 to 102 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 12:08:15
In reply to My apologies, posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 11:56:01
Hey....humility, honesty and courage look awfully good on you, dear :-)
I was so *not* surprised to see this post and I'll bet Phillipa appreciates it.
It IS all so dicey and tricky to express empathy and talk about your own stuff without inadvertently slipping into something that sounds like a commentary on someone else......so frustrating with good intentions. I know I have a heck of a time doing it.
You done good here, IMO. {{hugs}}
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:45:21
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » johnj1, posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 11:54:25
"Accused and put down - that is the standard."
Surely you jest. If not, wow, it must be nice in that ivory tower.
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:53:56
In reply to Re: FYI » johnj1, posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 11:49:09
I have no idea which post you are referring to but if you actually believe nothing has gone on via babblemail, recently or in the past, that is wrong, I can't help or explain it to you. I do believe we have had this discussion in the past and it appears your position is the same: Let's turn a blind eye.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 14:12:32
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:53:56
> I have no idea which post you are referring to but if you actually believe nothing has gone on via babblemail,
Regardless of what did or did not go on via babblemail, we cannot accuse someone or cause them to feel accused of what may or may not have gone on via babblemail. The way to have behavior addressed by Dr. Bob that one thinks is uncivil or needs some sort of sanction is to either send a notification on a post in question, or in the case of a babblemail, forward the babblemail with headers to Dr. Bob. The civility guidelines do not allow for us to post about someone or their behavior to complain. We CAN, however, post about our feelings related to the behavior, but that has to be from a first person standpoint. We can say I'm angry or sad or whatever, but NOT "Your action made me angry or sad or whatever."
I don't think it's turning a blind eye, per se. It's more turning a discrete eye by keeping the complaint off the boards. You can find more about the civility guidelines in the FAQ http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Feel free to babblemail me if you want to talk more about this.
gg
Posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 14:35:29
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » 10derheart, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:45:21
Sorry, I don't understand "ivory tower?" Sarcasm? {shrug} Probably my ADD - I am a little dense about expressions, I guess. (I am a little bit afraid of heights, so being in a tower sounds not-so-nice....)
I was just reiterating a portion of Dr. Bob's civility rules from the FAQ:
"Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if yours are hurt. Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
Please don't be sarcastic, treat injury or death lightly, suggest that others harm (or use this site to exchange information that could be used to harm) themselves or others, jump to conclusions about others, post anything that could lead others to feel ***accused or put down***, harass or pressure others, use language that could offend others, disclose without permission information (including previous posting names) that identifies or private communications from another poster, post information that you know to be false, exaggerate or overgeneralize -- etc. Even if you're quoting someone else."
Probably several parts of that would apply in this thread. I was just attempting to say I don't think it would be difficult at all to determine, keeping the rules in mind.
Posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:03:09
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » johnj1, posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 14:35:29
Yes, I sent the Babble Mails to Dr. Bob, but I have not a response from his yet. My guess is that he will have no problem with what Phillipa sent me ... as usual.
This is second time that Phillipa and I have had an altercation over Babble Mails. About 2 years ago she started a rumour that I went after the men on the group. She went so far as to Babble Mail all new male posters and "warn" them about me. The rumour spread, as rumours do, and it came back to me. It was untrue of course, but I was humiliated. I ended up leaving PB for a long time. It doesn't seem fair that I had to leave (even though I choose to)whilst Phillipa was allowed to stay on PB with not a single PBC let alone a block.
I am tired about being the root of her gossip.
Posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:07:33
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:03:09
I forgot the quote I wanted to add:
Trying to squash a rumor is like trying to unring a bell. ~Shana Alexander
and
It isn't what they say about you, it's what they whisper. ~Errol Flynn
Posted by SLS on November 17, 2010, at 16:15:17
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:07:33
Hi.
I was going to write some long-winded post so as to muse over this situation. After enough time had passed, I realized that there was nothing much that I had to say. It is unfortunate that people have been hurt.
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 17:59:18
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:03:09
Maxime, I would be livid if I thought someone did that to me. Livid. That being said, I really enjoy your participation on Babble, and I don't want to see you get blocked. So while I can empathize with you in the situation you described and can understand wanting to disclose this, I can see where Phillipa could feel accused. Rightly or wrongly.
And I can understand feeling really frustrated were I in the situation you described, especially if you feel unsupported by Dr. Bob. All I can say is what I said to you privately and now publicly--character speaks.
gg
Posted by Willful on November 17, 2010, at 18:32:56
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 8:44:36
~~~~Phillipa, the actions of those on this thread say a lot about them, and only tangentially anything about you. This thread might have been something that was justified against Hitler. You aren't Hitler. ~~~
I'm at a loss to understand this comment
I don't find anything that was said or done in this thread that is remotely like the type of things that are deserved only by someone as evil as Hitler.
Some few people ( there only seem to be two or three) who have spoken up (hardly enough to constitute ganging up against Phillipa, given especially that she has had her defenders here too) are legitimately upset about some things that Phillipa has done. Whether anything uncivil has been said in this I leave up to Bob. However, it is entirely understandable to be upset about some of the events here that are not denied by Phillipa.
I would certainly feel accused if someone said any comments I directed toward Phillipa were so accusatory as to be deserved only by someone like Hitler. So I guess there may be lots of hurt feelings and accusations flying around here.
Everyone, I hope, has had a chance to express their upset feelings. Perhaps some of that has hurt other people Perhaps it's just time for everyone to step back and wait for Bob to consider all this. Probably Maxime, who's been going through a very hard time lately, wanted some support in the circumstances, which led to her posting rather than dealing with things entirely privately . If that has hurt Phillipa, it likely wasn't the primary intention.
I wouldn't want to hurt Phillipa, but I also sympathize with Maxime and others who feel very disturbed by various events that have, in fact, occurred. So I guess a degree of compassion and mutual understanding is called for on all sides.
I hope people can come back to their better feelings and equanimity. I would hate to see anyone get blocked. And I"m concerned that this may happen unless we made some amends for any hurt that has been inadvertently caused.
Willful
Posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 19:36:59
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Willful on November 17, 2010, at 18:32:56
Perhaps you're right. I apologize for my hyperbole.
Hyperfocus expressed himself better than I did. I'd like to second what he said.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 15:44:58
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 8:44:36
> I cannot bear to be here any longer.
>
> I hurt so much for Phillipa. I hurt so much I am shaking and crying. Of course, I no longer self injure, so perhaps my pain and Phillipa's pain are of no concern to anyone.
>
> I can't imagine what anyone could say behind the scenes that could hurt more than this very public thread.
>
> I can't imagine that a threat of any babblemail could be worse than the reality of this. What on earth could Phillipa's husband do? Say nasty things? Start a thread to shame Maxime? Moreover *he* didn't do it. And there is always the choice of forwarding any babblemail to Dr. Bob without even reading it. No one need be assaulted by words in a Babblemail if it is expected. There is always the choice to delete a babblemail unopened if it is from someone you don't wish to hear from. If it is suspected to contain uncivil material,
it can be forwarded to Dr. Bob with headers without being read.
>
> Has Phillipa's babblemail even been forwarded to Dr. Bob?
>
> I don't wish to be at Babble if this is considered an ok thing to do. I became a deputy because I could not bear to see these things. If I can do nothing to stop
it, I cannot be here. It hurts. It feels like middle school all over again. Those people too believed they had reason to try and humiliate me. Of course, they could not. Their actions reflect on them, not on me.
>
> Phillipa, the actions of those on this thread say a lot about them, and only
tangentially anything about you. This
thread might have been something that was justified against Hitler. You aren't Hitler.
>
> (Lord of the Flies is generally used to refer to the actions of a group of those
who reject the mediating role of civilization over the savagery of human nature. Not to refer to a single gossip. If
there can even be a single gossip.)I am not reading anymore. I feel sick to my stomach and about to cry.
Dinah, I thank you for addressing this thread as far as you have. I so appreciate your efforts and ability to maintain, restore, and model basic civility, (not to be confined to the PB definition).
I strive, and fail, and strive to honor and respect the human being in us all. That is my intention. That is what I want for myself, my son, for every babbler, no matter how angry or upset I feel.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 16:12:24
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » 10derheart, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:45:21
I am happy to have you as a friend. I always have been. You welcomed me here 1+ years ago. You have been civil, kind, and supportive in all our interactions. On board I experience you as helpful, welcoming, curious about others, and both outgoing and shy at the same time.
I do not know why there is this controversy. You do not deserve the disrespect being shown you.
fb
Posted by johnj1 on November 18, 2010, at 19:49:09
In reply to Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 16:12:24
What about the other people that were disrespected? Do they not matter? Have you paid attention to the thread? The gossip and the intimidation? I bet you would feel different if you were the brunt of that bullying. My gosh, people are hard to understand sometimes.
Posted by johnj1 on November 18, 2010, at 19:51:58
In reply to Re: FYI » Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 15:44:58
"This is second time that Phillipa and I have had an altercation over Babble Mails. About 2 years ago she started a rumour that I went after the men on the group. She went so far as to Babble Mail all new male posters and "warn" them about me. The rumour spread, as rumours do, and it came back to me. It was untrue of course, but I was humiliated. I ended up leaving PB for a long time. It doesn't seem fair that I had to leave (even though I choose to)whilst Phillipa was allowed to stay on PB with not a single PBC let alone a block."
This is far worse than anything that was said in this thread don't you think? Appalling is what comes to my mind.
Posted by Maxime on November 18, 2010, at 20:08:24
In reply to Re: FYI » maxime, posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 17:59:18
Thanks GG.
Dr. Bob never responded to my emails. I am not surprised. When he does surface again, I am sure that I will be blocked. But in the grand scheme of things, I am okay with that.
When I get upset over what has happened here on PB, I think of the people in Haiti. It puts everything into perspective for me. I cry for the people in Haiti and I pray for them every night. I don't cry over what happens on PB.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 21:37:25
In reply to Re: Phillipa » floatingbridge, posted by johnj1 on November 18, 2010, at 19:49:09
Johnj1,
I don't believe we are acquainted. When it comes to PB history, I'm a relative newbie.
> What about the other people that were disrespected? Do they not matter?
I tried to be clear. I thought I said something about everyone deserving respect.
>Have you paid attention to the thread?
Yes, I had. And I became very upset. I am among the many posters here that can be triggered by events. Why are you asking me this?
>The gossip and the intimidation? I bet
you would feel different if you were the brunt of that bullying.Whose bullying? I have only seen one public bullying here. Throughout this thread, you and a few others have made reference to past events I know nothing about. Others posters have addressed this more eloquently, but in a nutshell, I
believe it is not my place to judge my cohorts in a public forum without evidence.If I were the brunt of bullying, I would be very upset. I know that. I don't know anyone that has escaped bullying in this lifetime.
>My gosh, people are hard to understand sometimes.
And now I come to a point of agreement with you.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 23:55:45
In reply to Re: FYI » floatingbridge, posted by johnj1 on November 18, 2010, at 19:51:58
Johnj1,
With respect, (I do feel you are treating me respectfully), I don't know anything about these events. Really. And I can appreciate what seems to be your attempt to focus my attention on information I might have overlooked. I don't feel that I am lacking a willingness to listen to you. I just don't see what has
been presented as evidence. (Nor am I comfortable being asked as a public member to judge so personal a matter.)My personal experience is that the majority of triggers are not of malevolent intent. Or even intended, though the feelings evoked for me are hyper-real. That said, I do not take issue with Maxime having personal grievances. IMO they should be resolved properly
and asap.What I do object to is a quick decision of a minority to judge another poster. Now that alarms me. I imagine most of us would not wish to be dealt with so hastily by others who themselves may be upset by issues coming from their own pasts.
Both Maxime and Phillipa have provided me with lots of caring support in my time here, and I really dislike the divisive effect of this thread. As my emotions level out, I remain hopeful that this thread may lead to some community benefit.
fb
>
> This is far worse than anything that was said in this thread don't you think? Appalling is what comes to my mind.
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 16:54:26
In reply to Re: FYI » floatingbridge, posted by johnj1 on November 18, 2010, at 19:51:58
> That passive aggressive crap
>
> Dr. Bob what are you going to do?> Surely you jest. If not, wow, it must be nice in that ivory tower.
> This is far worse than anything that was said in this thread don't you think? Appalling is what comes to my mind.
>
> johnj1> "It's hard for me and my husband to grasp ..."
> The only reason Phillipa stopped him from doing it is that she was worried SHE would get in trouble. That's all.
> one member [causes] such discontent among other members
> members ...have fallen victim to Phillipa's gossip etc.
>
> maxime> I believe that was done to intimidate.
>
> I hope this doesn't get swept under the rug.
>
> fayeroePlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, disclose without permission communications from them, or jump to conclusions about them.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people. I'm sorry if this hurts you and don't want anything bad to happen to you. In a crisis, please get help in person. You may wish to check out a listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
I do hope that you choose to remain a member of this community and that members of this community help you, if needed, to avoid future blocks. Dinah, 10derheart, gardenergirl, hyperfocus, and Willful, thanks for trying to help this time.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceYou might want to consider asking other posters to be your "civility buddies" and to preview your posts before you submit them.
Phillipa, Maxime, Dinah, johnj1, and 10derheart, I'm also sorry if you felt hurt.
> We have been down this path many many times before and it seems a poster continues this behavior. Maybe it is a game and maybe it makes them feel good doing it
>
> johnj1Whatever the reasons, some of us do continue our behaviors despite feedback from others. Coexisting can be a challenge.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: According to the formula:
johnj1:
duration of previous block: 1 week
period of time since previous block: 47 weeks
severity: 2 (default) + 1 (uncivil toward particular individual) = 3
block length = 1.52 rounded = 2 weeksmaxime:
duration of previous block: 1 week
period of time since previous block: 7 weeks
severity: 2 (default) + 1 (uncivil toward particular individual) = 3
block length = 2.64 rounded = 3 weeksfayeroe:
duration of previous block: 9 weeks
period of time since previous block: 6 weeks
severity: 2 (default) + 1 (uncivil toward particular individual) = 3
block length = 22.81 rounded = 23 weeks
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 16:54:35
In reply to Re: FYI » Willful, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 19:36:59
> I'd like to apologize to Phillipa for my comments above about gossiping. I can see how she might feel hurt by them. I didn't intent any hurt or to suggest that Phillipa or anyone else here is lacking something.
>
> gg> Perhaps you're right. I apologize for my hyperbole.
>
> DinahThanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 17:46:53
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 8:41:54
> I think that Bob has limited power as to what goes on behind the scenes. True, he can view babblemails, but only ones that are sent to him with header info (or whatever the signature code or something or other) included. So behavior can occur that is against site guidelines without sanction if it is never reported to him.
>
> ggExactly right. To be able to verify that specific babblemails were sent, I keep a log of who babblemails whom when and "fingerprints", but not actual copies, of messages:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#babblemail
> Dr. Bob, please explain if this type of gossip and threats are allowable on the site.
>
> johnj1Babblemails should be civil. Threats aren't civil. Gossip isn't necessarily uncivil.
--
> If (and when) a poster takes on the Gladys Kravitz's role and gets that reputation as what they "are" on a board, I am of the belief THAT can be contributory to the death of a site and a source of anger and harm that cause folks to retreat...
>
> glydin50Are you of the belief that Gladys Kravitz harmed people and contributed to the death of her community?
> Just don't participate; set a good example with this; don't reinforce the behavior, etc.
>
> I have encountered folks in my lifetime who seem to "thrive" on gossip. It's like it's a source of energy or vitality for them. If we fail to engage in this behavior with such persons, we take away their power.
>
> gg> I agree with you that not participating is the best thing to do when someone who gossips approaches you. But if a poster is new and does not know that the other poster is bringing "stories" and spreading rumors, (made up by gossiping poster) they may find themselves in a huge mess that turns out to be very confusing and hurtful.
>
> fayeroeWhat if someone's new in a "real" community? Is their only recourse to rely on people spreading rumors about other people spreading rumors?
--
> If someone was new to this site and had to judge this place by some of the comments made in this thread, what would they think?
>
> I think of PB like a greenhouse of potted plants, while Facebook is like a massive Amazon rain forest.
>
> The lesson here, to me, is that things that are said casually on FB and elsewhere may carry a huge amount of weight and significance here and may indeed hurt someone badly. Posters should be aware of the differences between PB and elsewhere on the net and think carefully about what they say here.
>
> hyperfocusThanks for that reminder. I wonder what the Amazon would be like if plants there were civil, too. :-)
Bob
Posted by glydin50 on November 21, 2010, at 18:43:40
In reply to Re: gossip, posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 17:46:53
> > If (and when) a poster takes on the Gladys Kravitz's role and gets that reputation as what they "are" on a board, I am of the belief THAT can be contributory to the death of a site and a source of anger and harm that cause folks to retreat...
> >
> > glydin50
>
> Are you of the belief that Gladys Kravitz harmed people and contributed to the death of her community?
>
~~~ Yes, I am of that belief. I believe Gladys caused harm for herself as well.Assessing my own behavior, I - having been here a long time - I have engaged in behaviors that did not contribute to the harmony of this community. When speaking of gossip, rumor and innenundo, the connection may begin here but the majority of the "stuff" happens off site. Folks do share things w/ others off site. The risk is, once that is shared, there is a chance it's going farther than just the one shared person.... nothing can be done about that by Adm. Bmails ARE different and that has been discussed fully.
My plan is to work on my own behaviors related to any Gladys traits and figuatively clean my own house.... : )
Posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2010, at 19:07:11
In reply to Re: gossip, posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 17:46:53
Dr Bob thanks for explaining that you have no copies I thought you did or would have sent mine. But I did not. Hopefully won't have to ever. Phillipa
Posted by medamorphosis on November 30, 2010, at 5:43:00
In reply to Re: FYI » gardenergirl, posted by Maxime on November 18, 2010, at 20:08:24
Sorry to see all this going on Maxime. You dont deserve added pressures from whats supposed to be a 'helpfull' sight. SHAME ON PHILLIPA!
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 30, 2010, at 14:47:10
In reply to Re: FYI » Maxime, posted by medamorphosis on November 30, 2010, at 5:43:00
> SHAME ON PHILLIPA!
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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