![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 11:37:38
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 11:07:51
> > Does she honestly not seem bothered when you tell you about your overdoses? If she doesn't, the I feel very very worried, and would even consider reporting her, as this is not professional behaviour.
>
> She doesn't seem worried about my ODs, even about the one that landed me in the hospital. The doctors at the hospital told me I could have died, but when I asked my pdoc about it she said I wouldn't have died. I think they were trying to scare me.Deneb, taking an overdose is just like taking any other medication- your body may react differently than others. You are petite, and the doctors at the hospital were probably speaking from their experience. I don't think that it's useful for you to think about what is lethal and what isn't lethal. More important is to think about how to avoid getting to a state where you feel that OD is your only option, or your best option. ALSO important is to learn strategies for coaching yourself out of that desperate place. Until you learn those strategies, and you learn to put them in place, AND you learn to deal with your own crises while they're happeneing... Then you are going to need some extra support in staying "safe".
You can draw that support from whereever you need to. Your faith in a higher power. Your wish to be a successful student. Your wish to join babblers in San Diego. A crisis counsellor can help coach you out of a desperate mindframe. An ER doc can give you support even before you make the decision to harm yourself. You can give your OD supplies to your mom and ask her if she can stay up with you tonight, or sleep in your room if that gives you comfort. You can call your pdoc before you OD, and she can help you reassess what your options are, so that you can make a better decision.
My point is that there are a LOT of ways to cope with that feeling of desperation. Some of them may feel "easy" (like posting on babble, which is "easy" for me) and some of them may feel like an insurmountable task (like calling your pdoc/T).
The idea is to brainwash yourself that you DO have options, and to teach yourself that you ARE strong enough to make the hard choice of keeping yourself safe. Even if one of your support strategies isn't working (i.e. babble posts are not helping with the desperate feeling) you can learn to try a second option, or a third. Go down the line until you find something that will bring your mind to a calmer state and/or keep your body in a safe location.
>
> Once I mini OD'd just before seeing her and I told her about it. She then asked me if I wanted to go to the hospital. I said, "No" and she left it at that. Of course she asked me how many pills I took, I think I took about 10, I'm not sure. She shortened our session by a lot that day. Maybe she didn't want to positively reinforce an OD.My first T used a similar approach with me. It was good for me (I reluctantly admit), because he helped me understand that no matter how AWFUL I felt, I was still strong enough not to act on my intentions. It sure didn't feel good at the time, when he told me that I can call this or that crisis line, but that I couldn't count on him to always be there to save me. I had to realize my own strength to save myself. So, this approach worked for me, and kept me from killing myself. It didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence that my T cared for me, however. I didn't like the feeling that no matter what I told him he didn't seem to react with compassion. The other thing that strikes me is that he PROBABLY did have compassion, but I am bad at reading his face, and wasn't sensitive to it.
> My pdoc wants to help me live my life, she's not out to save my life. When I was suicidal she told me that it's my choice whether or not to kill myself. She knows she has no control over these things. I respect her for that.
>
> As for malpractice, I don't think that happens where I live. Once I told her my family wouldn't sue if I died and she laughed at me. Then I laughed too.
>
> Deneb*
>Maybe time to try with a T, and keep her around for medication management. sounds like she's not able to give you what you need in terms of supportive counselling.
-Ll
Posted by one woman cine on January 19, 2007, at 11:38:09
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 11:07:51
"My pdoc wants to help me live my life, she's not out to save my life. "
You know her intentions then, what are yours?
Posted by one woman cine on January 19, 2007, at 11:40:16
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 11:37:38
Darn I hope I checked the right box this time!
Your advice is excellent. Both of your posts are great. I totally agree.
Posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:07:52
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 11:37:38
> Deneb, taking an overdose is just like taking any other medication- your body may react differently than others. You are petite, and the doctors at the hospital were probably speaking from their experience. I don't think that it's useful for you to think about what is lethal and what isn't lethal. More important is to think about how to avoid getting to a state where you feel that OD is your only option, or your best option. ALSO important is to learn strategies for coaching yourself out of that desperate place. Until you learn those strategies, and you learn to put them in place, AND you learn to deal with your own crises while they're happeneing... Then you are going to need some extra support in staying "safe".
I'm doing better at the staying safe thing. I told my Mom this time.
I think a big part of what leads to my ODing is that I don't believe I will be harmed from them. My pdoc told me I wouldn't have died. I believe her. I OD to self harm, not to die. I know how much I need to take for there to be a chance of it being lethal. I don't approach that amount.
>
> You can draw that support from whereever you need to. Your faith in a higher power. Your wish to be a successful student. Your wish to join babblers in San Diego. A crisis counsellor can help coach you out of a desperate mindframe. An ER doc can give you support even before you make the decision to harm yourself. You can give your OD supplies to your mom and ask her if she can stay up with you tonight, or sleep in your room if that gives you comfort. You can call your pdoc before you OD, and she can help you reassess what your options are, so that you can make a better decision.When my hamster was alive I used to tell myself I couldn't kill myself because no one would take care of my hamster if I were to die. I'm not suicidal anymore. When I OD I don't want to die. If I'm able to tell my Mom or call my pdoc before I OD, that probably means I wouldn't have OD'd in the first place. I guess when I mean is, if I tell someone about it before I do it, that means I wasn't serious about it to begin with and was in no danger, but I think I know what you mean. Wouldn't it be like crying wolf if I say I'm thinking of ODing and I don't?
>
> My point is that there are a LOT of ways to cope with that feeling of desperation. Some of them may feel "easy" (like posting on babble, which is "easy" for me) and some of them may feel like an insurmountable task (like calling your pdoc/T).
>
> The idea is to brainwash yourself that you DO have options, and to teach yourself that you ARE strong enough to make the hard choice of keeping yourself safe. Even if one of your support strategies isn't working (i.e. babble posts are not helping with the desperate feeling) you can learn to try a second option, or a third. Go down the line until you find something that will bring your mind to a calmer state and/or keep your body in a safe location.I have an idea. I should write down the number for the Distress Centre and call them the next time I want to OD. That's a good idea right?
> >
> > Once I mini OD'd just before seeing her and I told her about it. She then asked me if I wanted to go to the hospital. I said, "No" and she left it at that. Of course she asked me how many pills I took, I think I took about 10, I'm not sure. She shortened our session by a lot that day. Maybe she didn't want to positively reinforce an OD.
>
> My first T used a similar approach with me. It was good for me (I reluctantly admit), because he helped me understand that no matter how AWFUL I felt, I was still strong enough not to act on my intentions. It sure didn't feel good at the time, when he told me that I can call this or that crisis line, but that I couldn't count on him to always be there to save me. I had to realize my own strength to save myself. So, this approach worked for me, and kept me from killing myself. It didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence that my T cared for me, however. I didn't like the feeling that no matter what I told him he didn't seem to react with compassion. The other thing that strikes me is that he PROBABLY did have compassion, but I am bad at reading his face, and wasn't sensitive to it.I think the way my pdoc handled it was good for me. She taught me she couldn't "save" me.
>
> > My pdoc wants to help me live my life, she's not out to save my life. When I was suicidal she told me that it's my choice whether or not to kill myself. She knows she has no control over these things. I respect her for that.
> >
> > As for malpractice, I don't think that happens where I live. Once I told her my family wouldn't sue if I died and she laughed at me. Then I laughed too.
> >
> > Deneb*
> >
>
> Maybe time to try with a T, and keep her around for medication management. sounds like she's not able to give you what you need in terms of supportive counselling.
>
> -LlI think she's good at counselling. She helps me.
Thanks Ll for your response. (((((((((llurpsie)))))))))
Deneb*
Posted by AuntieMel on January 19, 2007, at 12:34:25
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:07:52
San Diego, San Diego, San Diego......
Posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:38:05
In reply to Re: Repeat this mantra » Deneb, posted by AuntieMel on January 19, 2007, at 12:34:25
> San Diego, San Diego, San Diego......
You're right, I better not OD again or else my Mom will never let me go.
Deneb*
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 19, 2007, at 12:47:00
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:07:52
> I'm doing better at the staying safe thing. I told my Mom this time.
>That's really good, Deneb. I know it's not easy, and your mom is probably having a hard time dealing with the strong feelings that come when she thinks about her daughter dying or hurting herself. Did your mom's actions/reactions help you feel reassured about your options next time you feel desperate?
> I think a big part of what leads to my ODing is that I don't believe I will be harmed from them. My pdoc told me I wouldn't have died. I believe her. I OD to self harm, not to die. I know how much I need to take for there to be a chance of it being lethal. I don't approach that amount.Deneb, you can NEVER be sure. The human body is a strange and complicated thing. Something silly like drinking grapefruit juice or eating a meal can affect how a drug is absorbed and metabolized. This is not a game Deneb. It's your life. (It's my friend's life too, actually. I'd feel SO bad if you got hurt. You have no idea.)
> >
>
> When my hamster was alive I used to tell myself I couldn't kill myself because no one would take care of my hamster if I were to die. I'm not suicidal anymore. When I OD I don't want to die. If I'm able to tell my Mom or call my pdoc before I OD, that probably means I wouldn't have OD'd in the first place. I guess when I mean is, if I tell someone about it before I do it, that means I wasn't serious about it to begin with and was in no danger, but I think I know what you mean. Wouldn't it be like crying wolf if I say I'm thinking of ODing and I don't?
>Well, that's some twisted thinking (not to disparage you). Put yourself in your mother's place. Would your mother prefer that you tell her BEFORE you harm yourself? or AFTER you harm yourself?
Now put yourself in Deneb*'s place. What are the reasons for OD (there may be a lot of reasons, and it might not make sense, but please try hard to think of all the possible things that make you go in this direction). Is one of them because you want your mother (or caregiver, or anyone else) to treat you a certain way?
I know that when I feel desperate and uncertain and in pain and hurting... I just want someone to take all my pain away, and care for me and nurture me. (That's why I visit Camp Comfort, on occasion). Is this the reaction that you wish for as well? Perhaps you are scared of "crying wolf" because it jeopardizes your chance of obtaining this reaction?
There is another way, though. You can get someone to care and love and nurture you when you're healthy too. You don't have to be in distress to deserve to be loved. You deserve to be loved and treated with compassion ALL the time. Not just when you're in trouble.
>
> I have an idea. I should write down the number for the Distress Centre and call them the next time I want to OD. That's a good idea right?
>YEAH! that's a great idea. Keep it handy. Sometimes just having that phone number gives you enough strength to help you make it on your own, and having it handy will make it easier for you to call them BEFORE you harm yourself.
> I think the way my pdoc handled it was good for me. She taught me she couldn't "save" me.
>
> >
> > > My pdoc wants to help me live my life, she's not out to save my life. When I was suicidal she told me that it's my choice whether or not to kill myself. She knows she has no control over these things. I respect her for that.Yes, that's good for some situations, but I also think you're going to have to do some more work to get to the root of these behaviors. What function do they serve? Why does Deneb persist in them, even though she's being treated with medication and twice monthly therapy? I think that something's gotta give. You need a little more help in the therapy department to help you understand the reasons for engaging in this behavior. We can treat the symptoms, but at the core there has to be something that is causing you to have these self-destructive thoughts and behaviors. I wouldn't wish those feelings on my worst enemy, and it really hurts when you have those feelings and can't seem to make sense out of them. You need some help to understand yourself, so that you can begin to change and grow. I *KNOW* you can do it, but it's hard work. When you're ready to change, you will know it. Until then, you do the best job you can. Keep your mom close, and tell your pdoc about ALL your symptoms, the feelings, the thoughts, the crises, what happened during the crises, the good moments, the way you and your mom (and the rest of your family) are getting along.
> I think she's good at counselling. She helps me.
>
> Thanks Ll for your response. (((((((((llurpsie)))))))))
>
> Deneb*
>No problem Deneb*. I bet your pdoc IS a good counsellor. You have been doing some really amazing things this year, including travelling by yourself, meeting complete strangers for giving an oral presentation in front of a group of DOCTORS! and I see that you're on a path of really inspiring self-growth and discovery. Keep it up, and I think that you will do pretty well for yourself. Have you thought about your long-term plans, (my long-term plans are scary to contemplate) or your goals for treating yourself to something nice next week?
Is there something healthy that you can do every day that will help you feel better about yourself? perhaps agree that you will do at least 1 hour of homework. As long as you do one hour, you can feel good about yourself. how about that?
I'm going to go do my work now, with those intentions.
-Ll
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 19, 2007, at 13:43:09
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 11:07:51
OK Deneb,
There are two thoughts I have when i read this. Either you are lying, which I have no reason to believe, or you need a new doctor.
As you know, I spent years doing "mini overdoses" as my form of self harm. And your pdoc is right, none ever killed me.
But, I can no longer go go to the toilet with passing blood with my stools, and I have to ake a stool softener every day as my colon doesn't work properly. This was caused by ibuprofen over doses they believe.
Needing to pass a stool gives me pains in my belly that double me over for about 15 minutes before "going".
My liver function tests are "borderline" and I ahve almost constant pain in my lower back from my liver. This is from paracetemol.
Other drugs made me sick, and I now feel sick after eating every single time, for about an hour, as my stomach is so badly damaged from the being sick and the drugs hurting the stomach lining.I have *serious* concerns about ~any~ doctor who dismissses such actions. Very serious concerns.
I urge you, very very strongly, to seek help with someone other than your pdoc. I do not want someone to have to live life in the often embarrassing and painful way I do.
Please deneb..
Nikki
>
> She doesn't seem worried about my ODs, even about the one that landed me in the hospital. The doctors at the hospital told me I could have died, but when I asked my pdoc about it she said I wouldn't have died. I think they were trying to scare me.
>
> Once I mini OD'd just before seeing her and I told her about it. She then asked me if I wanted to go to the hospital. I said, "No" and she left it at that. Of course she asked me how many pills I took, I think I took about 10, I'm not sure. She shortened our session by a lot that day. Maybe she didn't want to positively reinforce an OD.
>
> My pdoc wants to help me live my life, she's not out to save my life. When I was suicidal she told me that it's my choice whether or not to kill myself. She knows she has no control over these things. I respect her for that.
>
> As for malpractice, I don't think that happens where I live. Once I told her my family wouldn't sue if I died and she laughed at me. Then I laughed too.
>
> Deneb*
>
Posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 15:10:32
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on January 19, 2007, at 13:43:09
> OK Deneb,
>
> There are two thoughts I have when i read this. Either you are lying, which I have no reason to believe, or you need a new doctor.I'm not lying but I might be misinterpreting her words and actions? I dunno. I'm sure she cares about me and doesn't want me to die or get hurt. I think after she asks me how many pills I took and determines that it's a safe amount that she doesn't make a big deal out of the OD in order not to reinforce my ODing behaviour. I think that's why she doesn't make a big deal out of it.
I also think she doesn't think I will act on my thoughts. I've threatened suicide directly before (I said I bought a rope to hang myself with, I did buy the rope) and she didn't lock me up or anything. I think she tries to help me see that I'm using suicide and self harm as a way of coping. I think she doesn't think I would actually follow through. I've also read that it's unhelpful to hospitalize borderline patients who threaten suicide. I'm sure she is doing the best thing for me by not locking me up every time I threaten suicide or self harm.
She doesn't think I will kill myself and she's probably right. A lot of things need to go wrong for me to kill myself. Suicide is very rare. Maybe she also thinks that because suicide is so unpredictable, there is nothing she can do about it. Anyways, that was then, this is now. I don't think about suicide anymore.
> As you know, I spent years doing "mini overdoses" as my form of self harm. And your pdoc is right, none ever killed me.
>
> But, I can no longer go go to the toilet with passing blood with my stools, and I have to ake a stool softener every day as my colon doesn't work properly. This was caused by ibuprofen over doses they believe.
> Needing to pass a stool gives me pains in my belly that double me over for about 15 minutes before "going".
> My liver function tests are "borderline" and I ahve almost constant pain in my lower back from my liver. This is from paracetemol.
> Other drugs made me sick, and I now feel sick after eating every single time, for about an hour, as my stomach is so badly damaged from the being sick and the drugs hurting the stomach lining.I'm sorry you were harmed. Maybe my pdoc doesn't know about the harm mini ODs can cause. I'll stop. I'll find better ways to cope with distress.
I actually also have some GI issues, but I don't think they are related to my mini ODs.
>
> I have *serious* concerns about ~any~ doctor who dismissses such actions. Very serious concerns.
>
> I urge you, very very strongly, to seek help with someone other than your pdoc. I do not want someone to have to live life in the often embarrassing and painful way I do.
>
> Please deneb..
>
> NikkiI know my pdoc cares about me. I don't know why she dismisses my ODs. Perhaps it's her way to not positively reinforce them. Maybe my ODs are safe because I don't OD on Tylenol, only aspirin. I don't know. When I was in the hospital they told me I could have gotten pulmonary edema. That was kind of scary.
When my pdoc told me I didn't have a chance of dying maybe she was trying to alleviate my fears. But I must admit I do think about taking more than I took that time at the hospital because I didn't die and my pdoc told me I wouldn't die. I wonder if she meant that I wouldn't die in the hospital with treatment or I wouldn't have died even without treatment?
I've read about the minimum lethal dose of aspirin and I only took about half that amount. I wonder if that figure is based on getting treatment or no treatment?
I don't know.
Anyways, but it's a bad idea to OD because clearly I can be harmed from them even if I don't die, and you are proof of that. I won't OD again.
Deneb*
Posted by sunnydays on January 19, 2007, at 18:34:39
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:07:52
> I'm doing better at the staying safe thing. I told my Mom this time.
**** That's really good. I hope she responded well. It's really important to tell people in real life.
>
> I think a big part of what leads to my ODing is that I don't believe I will be harmed from them. My pdoc told me I wouldn't have died. I believe her. I OD to self harm, not to die. I know how much I need to take for there to be a chance of it being lethal. I don't approach that amount.*** Well, you are harmed, even if you don't die. Have you heard of building up a tolerance? I don't want you to build up a tolerance to whatever you take. Then you might end up having to take more to get the same effect you get now, and eventually you might approach the lethal level without meaning to. And it does harm your body, even if you can't see it. Just as alcoholism can cause liver damage or smoking can damage one's lungs without obvious side effects until much later, I believe that repeated ODing could do the same sort of thing. I just don't want bad things to happen to you Deneb.
If I'm able to tell my Mom or call my pdoc before I OD, that probably means I wouldn't have OD'd in the first place. I guess when I mean is, if I tell someone about it before I do it, that means I wasn't serious about it to begin with and was in no danger, but I think I know what you mean. Wouldn't it be like crying wolf if I say I'm thinking of ODing and I don't?**** No. It would mean you were thinking about it. If I say I'm thinking of having broccoli with dinner tonight, am I dishonest if I then don't have it? No, I just changed my mind. It's perfectly ok to change your mind, and probably healthier in the long run for you Deneb. People change their minds all the time, and sometimes it's the best thing you can do for yourself.
> I have an idea. I should write down the number for the Distress Centre and call them the next time I want to OD. That's a good idea right?**** That's an EXCELLENT idea Deneb. (((Deneb)))
sunnydays
Posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 19:33:13
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Deneb, posted by sunnydays on January 19, 2007, at 18:34:39
> > I have an idea. I should write down the number for the Distress Centre and call them the next time I want to OD. That's a good idea right?
>
> **** That's an EXCELLENT idea Deneb. (((Deneb)))
>
> sunnydaysI don't know if my pdoc wants me to call the Distress Centre when I want to OD. Maybe she thinks the Distress Centre is for suicidal people. Calling them was my idea. She didn't say it was a good idea. What if the Distress Centre calls the police on me? I don't want to get into trouble. I wouldn't want to be hauled off to the hospital for a mini OD. I can't go to the hospital without being really sick.
OK, I think this is twisted logic, but if I ever get hauled off to the hospital again I think I will OD some more while in the hospital to make myself sicker because I can't be in the hospital and not be sick. I did that last time, not in the hospital, but in the waiting room. Maybe that and the fact that I tried to escape the ER lead to me being locked up for 72 hours.
Thinking about ODing makes me sort of want to OD again. I have no idea why.
Why I am telling you this, I don't know. I should probably shut-up before people start thinking I'm in danger again.
Deneb*
Posted by sunnydays on January 19, 2007, at 20:03:05
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 19:33:13
> I don't know if my pdoc wants me to call the Distress Centre when I want to OD. Maybe she thinks the Distress Centre is for suicidal people. Calling them was my idea. She didn't say it was a good idea.
**** But she also didn't say it was a bad idea. If she had strong feelings that it was a bad idea, trust me, she would have said that. She wants you to have ways to cope with your distress, and I imagine that anything she didn't think would be helpful, she would say so.
What if the Distress Centre calls the police on me? I don't want to get into trouble. I wouldn't want to be hauled off to the hospital for a mini OD. I can't go to the hospital without being really sick.
**** Do you have to tell them where you live? If so, there are other hotlines that you can call where you don't have to, so there's no chance they'll call the police on you. But unless you are in absolute immanent danger I wouldn't think they would. Call them before you OD, if you ever feel like doing it again. If you call them after, it would be perfectly reasonable for them to call the police, as you are then a danger to yourself, even if you don't see it that way. But there are plenty of other places to call that wouldn't call the police. Try doing a Google search for crisis hotlines. There are lots.
>
> OK, I think this is twisted logic, but if I ever get hauled off to the hospital again I think I will OD some more while in the hospital to make myself sicker because I can't be in the hospital and not be sick. I did that last time, not in the hospital, but in the waiting room. Maybe that and the fact that I tried to escape the ER lead to me being locked up for 72 hours.**** I can see why you would be scared to go back. I hope you wouldn't OD again once you got there. They are more likely to let you leave if you don't, Deneb. Try telling someone there that you want to, if you're ever in that situation again and you find that you do want to. Then they can comfort you and give you some help. I hope you never feel like that again though.
> Thinking about ODing makes me sort of want to OD again. I have no idea why.
**** ((((Deneb)))) Please don't OD. Now would be a perfect time to go tell your mom you're thinking about it (and no, you don't have to follow through if you say that), or to call your pdoc, or to call the distress center, or to find another hotline to call, or to call a good friend and just chat. All are equally good options, in my opinion. I know my T would think any of them were a good idea, if that helps you any.
>
> Why I am telling you this, I don't know. I should probably shut-up before people start thinking I'm in danger again.
>
> Deneb***** You don't have to shut up Deneb. If people don't want to respond, they won't, and that's fine. But I'm responding now and I care. It's better to post about feeling like ODing and then not OD then to make yourself not post, and then get more upset.
(((((Deneb))))
sunnydays
Posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 20:36:25
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers*, posted by sunnydays on January 19, 2007, at 20:03:05
> **** But she also didn't say it was a bad idea. If she had strong feelings that it was a bad idea, trust me, she would have said that. She wants you to have ways to cope with your distress, and I imagine that anything she didn't think would be helpful, she would say so.
Yes, I think you're right. I've called the distress centre before, I don't think one need to be suicidal to call them.
>
> What if the Distress Centre calls the police on me? I don't want to get into trouble. I wouldn't want to be hauled off to the hospital for a mini OD. I can't go to the hospital without being really sick.
>
> **** Do you have to tell them where you live? If so, there are other hotlines that you can call where you don't have to, so there's no chance they'll call the police on you. But unless you are in absolute immanent danger I wouldn't think they would. Call them before you OD, if you ever feel like doing it again. If you call them after, it would be perfectly reasonable for them to call the police, as you are then a danger to yourself, even if you don't see it that way. But there are plenty of other places to call that wouldn't call the police. Try doing a Google search for crisis hotlines. There are lots.No, it's anonymous. I'm pretty sure if I take a real OD I will take the bus to the hospital. Or if I'm too sick I'll call 911.
> **** I can see why you would be scared to go back. I hope you wouldn't OD again once you got there. They are more likely to let you leave if you don't, Deneb. Try telling someone there that you want to, if you're ever in that situation again and you find that you do want to. Then they can comfort you and give you some help. I hope you never feel like that again though.
I sort of was in that situation again. I gave my pills to the receptionist.
> > Thinking about ODing makes me sort of want to OD again. I have no idea why.
>
> **** ((((Deneb)))) Please don't OD. Now would be a perfect time to go tell your mom you're thinking about it (and no, you don't have to follow through if you say that), or to call your pdoc, or to call the distress center, or to find another hotline to call, or to call a good friend and just chat. All are equally good options, in my opinion. I know my T would think any of them were a good idea, if that helps you any.It's OK. I'm really OK.
> **** You don't have to shut up Deneb. If people don't want to respond, they won't, and that's fine. But I'm responding now and I care. It's better to post about feeling like ODing and then not OD then to make yourself not post, and then get more upset.
>
> (((((Deneb))))
>
> sunnydays
>Thanks (((((sunnydays)))))
Deneb*
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 19, 2007, at 22:06:12
In reply to Nikki - responsibility/accountability, posted by one woman cine on January 19, 2007, at 8:05:53
> If a patient has symptoms of OD'ing and cannot get in touch with a pdoc, then a normal course of action is to go to the ER - of course I have never heard of not being able to get in touch with a pdoc - they have pagers and numbers to call because if patients cannot get in touch with them and a medical emergency occurs, they can be sued for malpractice.
>I'm only referring to this part of the thread, I have not even read the rest of it : )
But I did want to say that my P.Doc - the only one I could get because of the wait lists, ignored my calls every single one of them, and I was a new patient. I had no history of abusing the phoning privilege I actually felt terrible bothering the receptionist because I knew she was busy and could do nothing but pass on my messages; and my previous P.doc was so comfortable with me he gave me his home phone number, which I never once used.I would call my p'docs office in crisis because she didn't phone my medications in on time, every month I'd get anxious a week before my meds ran out because I knew she wouldn't respond.
Finally I called the mental health office after being without my medication for 5 days,(not from using too much) and even they couldn't get her to call, or refer me to someone who gave a damn.I know Deneb is from Canada and so am I, perhaps the threat of malpractice is not as prevalent here, but a crisis call to a P.Doc, or even a trip to the emergency room after overdosing (years ago) didn't result in anything but a charcoal drink, empty promises of help, which kept me going for a few days, but there was absolutely NO follow up, and no help, though I literally begged for an appointment with anyone, I was so lost.
It's the sad truth. I think a lot of folks assume this mythical "help" is out there, and refuse to believe that it doesn't always exist.I've had people angry with me for not partaking of it, when it couldn't be found, and it was agonizing, I felt let down by everyone.
This is a really sensitive topic for me, and I've already gone on too long, so I'd better quit.
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2007, at 22:11:56
In reply to Re: Nikki - responsibility/accountability *trigger » one woman cine, posted by gabbi-2 on January 19, 2007, at 22:06:12
Gabbi that's just horrible. Love Phillipa
Posted by cubic_me on January 20, 2007, at 7:59:42
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » sunnydays, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 20:36:25
>
> Yes, I think you're right. I've called the distress centre before, I don't think one need to be suicidal to call them.
>I haven't posted to you much before (actually I don't post that much at all!) but I just wanted to pick up that if it was just for suicidal people it would be called the suicide centre or similar. It sounds like just the right place for you to call - you do sound 'distressed' and upset.
I also don't think there's medically a distinction between what you think of as a 'mini-OD' and a 'real-OD', an overdose is just taking more medication than you should, whether that be to kill yourself, hurt yourself or by accident. Medically they're all treated the same, so don't feel you can't go to your emergency department because you didn't intend to die - you still need the treatment to minimise long term damage to your body, even if it doesn't result in getting the psychological support it sounds like you could do with.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 10:48:23
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on January 19, 2007, at 4:21:07
> you have so often make it our fault.
I understand you want to help, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 10:48:26
In reply to Re: Nikki - responsibility/accountability *trigger » one woman cine, posted by gabbi-2 on January 19, 2007, at 22:06:12
> It has been pointed out, it is your call as when to call for help.
>
> Glydin> I think a lot of folks assume this mythical "help" is out there, and refuse to believe that it doesn't always exist.
>
> I've had people angry with me for not partaking of it, when it couldn't be found, and it was agonizing, I felt let down by everyone.
>
> gabbi-2I understand people want to help, and it's hard to know what's best sometimes, but pressure can go both ways, and it might not help Deneb to feel pressured, or that others are angry with her.
Bob
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 16:12:48
In reply to Re: Nikki - responsibility/accountability *trigger » gabbi-2, posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2007, at 22:11:56
It was horrible, it ruined two years of my life, I didn't even have a home phone, so every month I'd be using the grocery store phone to see if she'd called in my meds, and beg the pharmacey for some if they were not. It was humiliating and dangerous.
Finally I called my former pdoc from out of town, who knew I wouldn't lie about it, and in 30 minutes he had my meds phoned in, (on a SATURDAY) and said he would do that until I found someone else.
What's kind of funny was I told him I didn't want the mood stabilizers, and I said "I only needed them because I was being driven crazy by my psychiatrist"
I still don't need themYes there are some good Pdocs, but it's so frightening to even have to say that.
It's like brain surgeons you know, are people expected to accept that there are some good ones but "you just have to look around?!"
These people have lives in their hands. I would not have survived it if it weren't for my best friend, and my other Pdoc who believed me.
Posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 17:03:53
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 10:48:26
Why is it called pressuring? Why is suggesting multiple times, the only advice we (as Non-Professionals) know to be equal to the severity of the complaints/posts, "pressure"? WHat are we supposed to suggest? What would be the appropriate response for non-doctors, on a site which isn't supposed to be used as(or replace) therapy itself, to someone talking of suicide and overdose? To me, anything less than suggesting calling ones psychiatrist, an new pdoc, a distress center, or going to the ER, would not only be incompetant, but would even mock the person's distress - or do you yourself already not believe in their validity. If someone says they are sad, they get "only support". But I mean honestly Bob, what is one *supposed* to say to such serious, and potentially fatal outcries?
If someone says "I feel angry when..." then thats different. But I don't believe it's the "fault" of the poster when a repeated suggestion is infered (as you, according to the wording above, have seem to have done) with "anger". Why did you choose "anger" and not "distress" or "concern"? That aside, Have you never suggested to a patient to call you if they are dangerously unstable, or to go to the ER if feeling suicidal? Were *you* angry when you suggested it? I doubt it.(but perhaps you are more research focused, and not practising clinically)
Also, you've never commented on how people must also learn to *reject* advice in an equally responsible and neutral way.
You continually only address one side of this equation.thanks El
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:26:28
In reply to Re: How can you be sure? *triggers* » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:07:52
deneb, every time you "mini OD" (i am SO uncomfortable with that term. i used to work in ER) you are doing damage to your liver and kidneys that they may not be able to reverse. every time you take too much of any medication, your liver has to work extra hard to protect you. you can google "liver" and learn how terribly important it is to have a good healthy one.
i have to go on record and say that there is no "mini OD", medically, and a mistake may be made one day and it will be irreversible. pat
Posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 17:27:42
In reply to Re: calling for help » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 17:03:53
Thank you Elaine. You said what I wanted to say much better than I ever could have. I felt very hurt after reading Dr. Bob's post, and had no idea why it was wrong to suggest calling for help when there is nothing we can do on this site to help someone feeling distressed and suicidal other than suggest real life help. I briefly considered taking a couple week break from Babble after reading that post from Dr. Bob, too. I felt very hurt and confused. I wish that Bob would give suggestions as to what we are supposed to suggest to someone talking about suicide besides getting help in real life.
sunnydays
Posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:39:56
In reply to Re: calling for help » ElaineM, posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 17:27:42
> Thank you Elaine. You said what I wanted to say much better than I ever could have. I felt very hurt after reading Dr. Bob's post, and had no idea why it was wrong to suggest calling for help when there is nothing we can do on this site to help someone feeling distressed and suicidal other than suggest real life help. I briefly considered taking a couple week break from Babble after reading that post from Dr. Bob, too. I felt very hurt and confused. I wish that Bob would give suggestions as to what we are supposed to suggest to someone talking about suicide besides getting help in real life.
>
> sunnydayssunnydays and elaine.....i'm just picking myself up off the floor over this........i posted about how much damage deneb's liver is taking and i wonder if he thinks she shouldn't know that?
i am absolutely thrown for a loop over this one. more so than a lot of other things that bob says.........pat
Posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 17:47:41
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by fayeroe on January 20, 2007, at 17:39:56
Ugh..
I didn't mean to infer that telling someone to call for help was anger, or pressure or negative. When I said people were angry with me, it was my personal situation, and didn't in *any* way mean to refer to the thread, which is why I specified as much in my post. I should have known it could be taken that way though, and I'm sorry if anyone thought I was being critical.
Posted by sunnydays on January 20, 2007, at 17:51:52
In reply to Re: calling for help, posted by gabbi-2 on January 20, 2007, at 17:47:41
> Ugh..
>
> I didn't mean to infer that telling someone to call for help was anger, or pressure or negative. When I said people were angry with me, it was my personal situation, and didn't in *any* way mean to refer to the thread, which is why I specified as much in my post. I should have known it could be taken that way though, and I'm sorry if anyone thought I was being critical.
>
>
I didn't take it that way at all, which was why I was so confused and hurt after I read bob's post.sunnydays
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