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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Glydin on March 26, 2006, at 15:42:47
In reply to Porn...what's the big deal?, posted by jay on March 26, 2006, at 15:31:03
Porn is a BIG deal to many folks. Everyone is entiled to their own opinion but when it comes to ready access and "exposure" to children AND the (what I preceive as) explotive and life ruining nature of the business of porn - well, call me a prude, but I have a problem with that.
Posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 16:51:36
In reply to Porn...what's the big deal?, posted by jay on March 26, 2006, at 15:31:03
> What consenting adults wish to do or enjoy...hey..that's their right.
Maybe... Or maybe not.
Do you know for a fact that the women you are looking at are happy enough with what they are doing? Can you rule out the possibility that they might be doing it to... Provide medication for a sick child, for example. Or that they might be doing it because they have been sexually abused and don't think they are going to find anything better in life.
How would you feel if your 'classy girlfriend' posed for pornographic magazines? Would you still think she was classy?
How would you feel if your mother or your daughter posed for pornographic magazines? Would you be okay with that or would you think they had degraded themselves?
Posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 16:56:29
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? » jay, posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 16:51:36
See... What I think is that these thoughts don't occur to people when they are viewing porn.
If they do occur to you then I'd imagine it would be much much harder to get off on it.
And if that is right (and I guess you would have to answer for your own feelings on that)
But if that is right...
Then it means that you are viewing them as ends to your means (you are not considering their desires or their welfare at all you are disregarding it for your own desires)
And... Well... A thought is that other people are not mere ends to our means. They are ends in their own right. They have desires which should be respected.And I guess you can tell yourself that a lot of people who pose for porn really are happy doing that and are really proud that people toss off to pictures of them... You can tell yourself that...
But do you know for a fact that that is the case in any particular picture you look at?
And now that you have considered that it might not be...
That there is a very real possibility that they are not happy with what they are doing...
Then is it okay to continue?
Up to you... Don't have to answer... But if you wonder why some people don't think pornography is okay... Then that is why...
At least. That is what convinced me.
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 26, 2006, at 17:34:59
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal?, posted by special_k on March 26, 2006, at 16:56:29
To be realistic I don't think it's possible to know that anyone is enjoying what they are doing.
There are so many ways that people are degraded
but the sex industry is a headline grabber.I wonder how many people who are anti porn, anti-sex industry buy things that are made by abused children, and factory workers. I'm sure they'd claim not, but are they scrupulous in making sure, or do they boycott the obvious and hope for the best in everything else?
As for me, I've been shall we say "intimate" with the sex industry, and found it less degrading than many other aspects of being human.
I'm not denying the abuse, or the sadness.
As a friend of mine said "I don't mind porn, it's the industry I hate"
and I would add to that, Porn in a free society is one thing, pornography in North America is, sadly, another.I applaud Milly for hiding the magazines away from the kids.
Posted by milly on March 27, 2006, at 2:17:54
In reply to Porn...what's the big deal?, posted by jay on March 26, 2006, at 15:31:03
Thanks guys for the support and it IS A BIG DEAL
I know for a fact ,because he was my boss, that the guy who raped me and took my virginity used to read this stuff over his coffee break!
No I have no proof that the 2 are connected but if that is how you see women then it isn't a huge jump to behaving in a degrading fashion yourself.
it probably explains a bit of my strong feelings about this stuff and I DONT want it thrust in my kids faces.
milly
Posted by special_k on March 27, 2006, at 6:26:23
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by milly on March 27, 2006, at 2:17:54
((((Milly))))
I'm sorry that happened to you :-(
> No I have no proof that the 2 are connected but if that is how you see women then it isn't a huge jump to behaving in a degrading fashion yourself.
I think it might be more that most people who commit violent crimes tend to fantasise about it whereas it doesn't really follow that most people who fantasise about violent crimes tend to do it.
I think about things I'd like to do to people sometimes (violent kinds of things) - but I don't think I'd really do it...
But I do think that the more you indulge in fantasy the more you are likely to start getting action urges...
And I guess people will say there is a difference between porn where the woman appears willing... And porn where the woman does not appear willing...
But personally it is the woman being willing to do stuff that most women really would not be willing to do that gets to me. I mean do guys really think that girls like that stuff? lol.
sigh.
It is more the objectification that gets to me (viewing a person as an object or a mere means to our end)
I feel pretty strongly about it and nothing like that has happened to me...
I understand your feeling all the more strongly about it given what has happened to you...
And re: child labour etc. IMO that is a good reason to lay off the global type stores that tend to make more use of third world labour.
I mean... I find myself doing a lot of things that I don't think I should do... I think most people do... Or maybe not. I don't know.
But I don't think it works to say 'but there are worse things in the world so I shouldn't worry about this lesser thing'. I mean... Where would that stop? It is okay for me to exploit this one person... Because OTHER PEOPLE exploit more than one.
I dunno. I guess all we can do is try and take responsibility for out own actions and explain our rationalle to others.
I like to think that if people understood the rationalle and took it on board then the world might be a better place.
But I dunno.
Sigh.
I dunno.
> it probably explains a bit of my strong feelings about this stuff and I DONT want it thrust in my kids faces.
> milly
Posted by Gabbix2 on March 27, 2006, at 7:19:01
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » milly, posted by special_k on March 27, 2006, at 6:26:23
> ((((Milly))))
>
> I'm sorry that happened to you :-(
>
> > No I have no proof that the 2 are connected but if that is how you see women then it isn't a huge jump to behaving in a degrading fashion yourself.
>
> I think it might be more that most people who commit violent crimes tend to fantasise about it whereas it doesn't really follow that most people who fantasise about violent crimes tend to do it.
>
> I think about things I'd like to do to people sometimes (violent kinds of things) - but I don't think I'd really do it...
>
> But I do think that the more you indulge in fantasy the more you are likely to start getting action urges...
>
> I mean... I find myself doing a lot of things that I don't think I should do... I think most people do... Or maybe not. I don't know.
>
> But I don't think it works to say 'but there are worse things in the world so I shouldn't worry about this lesser thing'. I mean... Where would that stop? It is okay for me to exploit this one person... Because OTHER PEOPLE exploit more than one.
If that was in reference to what I said, it wasn't what I meant at all.
I didn't mean it was okay. I meant what I said, which was that there are many ways to exploit and degrade people, but the sex industry seems to be the headline grabber, and those involved in it, judged the most harshly.It's all wrong, of course. (Not that I think porn is innately degrading to women, but I think the industry is)
But I think it's all equally wrong, and yet, people who object to porn from the ideal that it exploits women, would I think be far more disgusted to see porn in a friends home than a pair of Nike running shoes.
I find it odd, but not in any way "okay."
Posted by verne on March 27, 2006, at 8:14:07
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by Gabbix2 on March 27, 2006, at 7:19:01
I agree with you that porn is not innately degrading to women. What is wrong with nudity - especially among consenting adults?
That said, I can't watch typical American porn. Seems like there has to be guns and violence mixed in there somewhere. What's that about? Besides, the models or actors look so sad and sickly. I mean, I would pay not to look at them.
Yet I don't have a problem with the soft european-style "simple nude" approach. I don't think the typical model is being "exploited" - although I might feel that way for paying to look at it. But then I feel exploited by a Shania Twain video, the 20-minute workout, or Betsy Russell in "Private School".
And I don't get the degraded, exploited, "sex object" argument. I have a "relationship" with, I'm IN LOVE with, Zuzanna from Brno, Czech Republic. I'm the sad and exploited one. She's smiling all the way to the bank, when not working towards her PhD.
Verne
Posted by special_k on March 27, 2006, at 19:30:46
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by verne on March 27, 2006, at 8:14:07
i don't have a problem with nudity and appreciation of form...
i do have a problem with stuff that is made with the intention (and viewed with the intention) of j*cking off to it.
i think that viewing pictures that way...
makes it more likely that one appraises people irl that way...would you feel just a little bit embarrased for your mother or your sister or your daughter if they were in teh industry?
regardless of whether they are pleased with it or not...
wouldn't you not feel so good with the thought that guys are viewing them as... an object whose whole purpose is to please them?
i would...
but maybe thats just me.
Posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2006, at 19:47:24
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 27, 2006, at 19:30:46
I just thought of something how come prostitution is legal in Holland? Love Phillipa
Posted by verne on March 27, 2006, at 20:56:32
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 27, 2006, at 19:30:46
I don't think there's anything wrong with erotic images and self gratification. As long as no one else is harmed, another person's viewing material and how they use it, or their body, should be a private matter.
I, myself, think smut is good clean fun.
Verne
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 9:57:53
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by verne on March 27, 2006, at 20:56:32
i never thought of it as objectifying women any more than men. Maybe girlie magazines, but there is always Playgirl. It certainly promotes expectations that are impossible for real people to measure up to, but that's as true, if not even more so, for men than women. Good grief, I remember things going on for so long that I got bored even watching it. Talk about inducing performance anxiety.
And if you think of those men as your brother or father, it would pretty much take the pleasure out of enjoying it.
I'm sad to say that my husband totally took the joy out of videos for me by reminding me of the likely realities of the porn movie industry. The health risks, etc. Once it was brought to my attention, it was kind of like trying to eat chicken soup after my ethics report on animal husbandry.
I'm not sure that Playgirl and Playboy have the same issues? For those who find static anatomical depictions stimulating. Thank heavens for the written word. No one was harmed in the creation of that fantasy. (Of course, I can see where written depictions of violent fantasies could be harmful just as other violent games, literature, songs, etc. could be harmful in that they desensitize people to violence or inspire desires in people that might result in violence. Even while in other people they may be a relatively harmless way to discharge those urges.)
I rather suspect this may belong on Politics though.
Posted by Glydin on March 28, 2006, at 10:06:56
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 9:57:53
> For those who find static anatomical depictions stimulating.
~~~ Tends to be a XY chromosomes thing
> Thank heavens for the written word.~~~ Tends to be an XX chromosomes thing
But, I do have to add the essential "everybody's and everymind's different" as I don't what to be an all or nothing thinker.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 10:14:50
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » Dinah, posted by Glydin on March 28, 2006, at 10:06:56
:)
I have to admit finding Playgirl very educational in my youth. I remember my mother even offered to buy it since we were underage. And I still enjoy it as a novelty from time to time. You know, if there's an interesting article in it. ;)
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:04:06
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by verne on March 27, 2006, at 20:56:32
> I don't think there's anything wrong with erotic images and self gratification. As long as no one else is harmed, another person's viewing material and how they use it, or their body, should be a private matter.
but how do you know whether anyone is harmed or not and really do you care when you are viewing those images?
if your daughter didn't feel harmed...
how would you feel is she was a pornstar?proud... or concerned for her?
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 11:10:05
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:04:06
How about his son?
How would he feel if his son or daughter was a porn star? I'm not sure that's a gender issue at all.
Posted by Phil on March 28, 2006, at 12:38:09
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 11:10:05
Dinah...Once it was brought to my attention, it was kind of like trying to eat chicken soup after my ethics report on animal husbandry.
Haha!!
Posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 13:40:03
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:04:06
I'm not ashamed if that's what you're getting at:
Not ashamed to view pornographic material. Not ashamed to masturbate. And not ashamed of my "pornstar daughter" - if that's what she wants to do.
Verne
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 16:41:24
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 13:40:03
I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of.
Masturbation is a healthy and safe sexual outlet. I wish it were promoted more as an alternative to riskier activities.
And I'm rather annoyed with my husband for ruining my enjoyment of the movies.
Posted by Bobby on March 28, 2006, at 17:07:16
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 16:41:24
you're going to arouse Ted from hibernation---with his erotic literature. :)
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 17:17:25
In reply to Careful Dinah » Dinah, posted by Bobby on March 28, 2006, at 17:07:16
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:30:31
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 13:40:03
> I'm not ashamed if that's what you're getting at:
I'm not trying to evoke shame. I would hope that you wouldn't be ashamed of your daughter no matter what she may choose to do in life.
And masterbation (IMO) seems like a victimless crime (which is to say not a crime at all).
Regarding the photographs / movies...
I'm not so sure it is victimless...
But whatever. To each their own or something.
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:33:39
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 11:10:05
> How about his son?
> How would he feel if his son or daughter was a porn star? I'm not sure that's a gender issue at all.Oh. Well typically if a female bares all for the camera / sleeps with a lot of people then she is considered a 'slut' or a 'whore' which is a derogatory way of looking at her and the situation...
Typically if a male bares all for the camera / sleeps with a lot of people then he is considered a 'stud' or something equally positive.
Societies double standard...
Hence... It tends to have more weight when females are involved.
The notion that other people view the pictures and are more likely to judge the person involved derogatorily.
Whereas if you are a guy and it is your son... You are probably to start making comments about how he gets it from his father etc etc.
I do feel rather ill...
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 19:40:47
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:33:39
I would have hoped that double standard was long since dead and buried.
But then I've recently decided that I may perhaps have to consider the sad possibility that I'm an idealist.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 19:43:48
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:33:39
There's an article in a recent Psychology Today that contained a mention of recent research that showed that men who viewed pornography did not, in fact, have a negative or derogatory view of women. That on fact, on average, they had a slightly more positive view of women.
I don't know the reliability of Psychology Today as a source. But it would be interesting to see the source studies.
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