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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2004, at 0:46:55
I have a dilemma that I have been avoiding for some time. Every now and then it gets to me. I can't avoid making a decision, but I can avoid examining my reasons...
More than anything I want to go to the US to do a PhD. I can put together a competitive application but to do so I need to
- Get some people to say that they think I will be an excellent candidate.
I am not sure that it is fair of me to ask them because I can think of a few good reasons why I am not a good candidate.
I don't even know whether it is fair of me to apply.
- What are the chances that I'll complete? Not good. But then the chances I'd get as far as I have aren't so good either.
- What are the chances I'll be able to meet my work committments for 5 years without a problem (or 9)? Very bad indeed.
- What are the chances I'll get sick and be sent home in disgrace? Probably very good indeed.
I need to do the best I can to convince them I am the best applicant. But if they knew of my mental health history they wouldn't even look at me. I know it's illegal to discriminate - but what are the chances it will significantly intefere? Very good indeed. I would be asking for them to make a significant financial and time and effort committment to me - and when the chances are so slim that I'll be able to meet my end without a hitch I am not sure that it is even fair of me to be thinking of applying.
It will all only eventuate in virtue of 'extended student health insurance' at any rate. Is it even fair of me to apply for health insurance when it is foregone that I am going to be claiming on it pretty heavily indeed.
My FTW attitude has been what has gotten me this far.
But now I am starting to develop a social conscience... or something... not sure. Any advice? I don't know what to do. I just swing between honesty and despair and optimism and denial of my significant problems... Round and round we go.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 7:34:49
In reply to Honesty versus Optimism, posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2004, at 0:46:55
> I have a dilemma that I have been avoiding for some time. Every now and then it gets to me. I can't avoid making a decision, but I can avoid examining my reasons...
Your subject line questions the application of honesty. There are many kinds of honesty. It appears like you are honestly trying to talk yourself out of the opportunity of a lifetime.
> More than anything I want to go to the US to do a PhD. I can put together a competitive application but to do so I need to
>
> - Get some people to say that they think I will be an excellent candidate.
>
> I am not sure that it is fair of me to ask them because I can think of a few good reasons why I am not a good candidate.When one seeks a reference, one seeks a complimentary view of one's abilities. It's an inherent part of the process. All applicants will be submitting shiny glossy references. Frankly, I think that someone who does not question their abilities under progressively more difficult conditions has a mental problem, not the other way around.
> I don't even know whether it is fair of me to apply.Fair? You're only applying. Don't presuppose acceptance, or the terms of an acceptance.
> - What are the chances that I'll complete? Not good. But then the chances I'd get as far as I have aren't so good either.See? Where there's a will....
> - What are the chances I'll be able to meet my work committments for 5 years without a problem (or 9)? Very bad indeed.You discuss the time frame in your own questions....that is the coping mechanism. I've seen PhD theses completed in three years, or in 12. Work commitments, as in TAing or research, would certainly be minimal productivity standards, in return for stipend, but I have seen substantial flexibility in those arrangements, too.
> - What are the chances I'll get sick and be sent home in disgrace? Probably very good indeed.If you get sick, why would they send you home? People get sick, and it's hardly a disgrace. Sick people get care.
> I need to do the best I can to convince them I am the best applicant. But if they knew of my mental health history they wouldn't even look at me.The application process is not the time to discuss special needs. If you morally or ethically believe they must know before the deal is finalized, then you bring that up during the acceptance interview itself. You need not divulge potential risks of health issues.
> I know it's illegal to discriminate - but what are the chances it will significantly intefere? Very good indeed.
If you were their chosen candidate, they will not throw away their investment without working to accomodate. I suspect that you have toughed things out quietly, in the past? In my own case, my supervisor was notified (by the Special Needs Office) that medical issues might affect my ability to meet deadlines. The mere existence of this accomodation was such that I never ever used it. I felt the threat lifted, and I could work under the new conditions, because I wasn't so burdened by trying to meet the conditions of "normalcy".
> I would be asking for them to make a significant financial and time and effort committment to me - and when the chances are so slim that I'll be able to meet my end without a hitch I am not sure that it is even fair of me to be thinking of applying.
You display a strong ethical foundation. Your candidacy looks stronger for it, IMHO.
> It will all only eventuate in virtue of 'extended student health insurance' at any rate. Is it even fair of me to apply for health insurance when it is foregone that I am going to be claiming on it pretty heavily indeed.
Of course it is. The insurance rates are calculated on the likelihood that the average person will use fewer services than what they've paid for, not that no one will ever get better care than they've paid for.
> My FTW attitude has been what has gotten me this far.So, why do you want to change that, this time?
> But now I am starting to develop a social conscience... or something... not sure. Any advice? I don't know what to do. I just swing between honesty and despair and optimism and denial of my significant problems... Round and round we go.
Sounds more like the voice of depression than the honest voice of your spirit. Just the opinion of a mentally ill academic type geek.
Lar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2004, at 19:19:42
In reply to Re: Honesty versus Optimism » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 7:34:49
Oh thankyou so much ((((Larry Hoover)))) that was just what I needed to hear! I do get myself into a bit of a state about it sometimes, but don't have anyone I can talk to about my concerns who understands where I am coming from, or who understands the situation at all.
I just worry about the references because I am asking people to stake their academic reputation on their reccomendation. If I F up then it reflects badly on them for having reccomended me. All the references are anonomous to the applicant, but I am sure I will get good ones. Especially if I can go to my supervisor (who knows a little about my difficulties) and say to him that in all good conscience I think I can do it and that I want it more than anything.
> Fair? You're only applying. Don't presuppose acceptance, or the terms of an acceptance.
Aw, you mean theres a chance I wont get in :-(
(just kidding)>> - What are the chances I'll be able to meet my work committments for 5 years without a problem (or 9)? Very bad indeed.
> You discuss the time frame in your own questions....that is the coping mechanism. I've seen PhD theses completed in three years, or in 12. Work commitments, as in TAing or research, would certainly be minimal productivity standards, in return for stipend, but I have seen substantial flexibility in those arrangements, too
Eep, now you are scairing me. I meant that I will probably have one problem, or more likely nine problems. Nope, I fully intend to complete on schedule! Actually, that is why I am so keen on the US, in the southern hemisphere our PhD programs are 3 years long and thesis only, no more course work. I want an extra two years so I can do more course work, and especially pick up a minor in cognitive / brain science.
> If you get sick, why would they send you home? People get sick, and it's hardly a disgrace. Sick people get care.
I guess that I figuered they would take a pretty harsh line on my meeting my work committments. What can happen is that I freak out and need to take a week off. If I don't meet a deadline, then I thought I'd be sent home. But I guess that they are not such meanies that they won't accept compassionate grounds. And I think that I get what you get - if I know compassionate grounds are available then that gives me the strength to not need them.
> The application process is not the time to discuss special needs. If you morally or ethically believe they must know before the deal is finalized, then you bring that up during the acceptance interview itself. You need not divulge potential risks of health issues.
Oh, hell no. I am not planning on telling them until I am all moved in and I need those compassionate grounds.
> If you were their chosen candidate, they will not throw away their investment without working to accomodate.
yeah, I never thought of that.
I suspect that you have toughed things out quietly, in the past? In my own case, my supervisor was notified (by the Special Needs Office) that medical issues might affect my ability to meet deadlines. The mere existence of this accomodation was such that I never ever used it. I felt the threat lifted, and I could work under the new conditions, because I wasn't so burdened by trying to meet the conditions of "normalcy".
Thanks, that helps heaps.
> Of course it is. The insurance rates are calculated on the likelihood that the average person will use fewer services than what they've paid for, not that no one will ever get better care than they've paid for.Hey, yeah I never thought of that! Thanks so much!
PS - what are you studying?
Posted by SadWren on October 26, 2004, at 23:39:57
In reply to Honesty versus Optimism, posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2004, at 0:46:55
I went through the application process and the thing I put off and was terrified of was asking people for recommendations. I was a good student/employee, but with anxiety and self esteem issues asking someone to say nice things about me was beyond daunting (I asked one non-academic person only a week before it was due).
Despite all my insecurities, the people I asked were amazingly kind about the whole thing even though two of the three were professors that I had had little experience with (took a class from one, was a teaching asst to the other). They invited me to come visit for a day to talk to them and they even arranged for me to meet with other professors who were interested in similar areas.
I just share that because I think that sometimes it can be hard to see that you are a great person and that the vast majority of other people will want to help you if they can (just put yourself in their position, for example). Of course if the asking part does not scare you, then at least realize that every applicant has their insecurities about this process and many PhD students are treated for mental health issues (until I sought treatment I had no idea how many of my classmates did). Most universities in the US have counseling services with group therapy for grad students and at my Univ it is extremely popular.
Good luck with your apps!
Wren
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2004, at 8:02:08
In reply to Re: Honesty versus Optimism, posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2004, at 19:19:42
> Oh thankyou so much ((((Larry Hoover)))) that was just what I needed to hear!
Goody! You're welcome.
> I just worry about the references because I am asking people to stake their academic reputation on their reccomendation. If I F up then it reflects badly on them for having reccomended me.I would argue that that too is a false belief. The professors on either side of this transaction were themselves once in your position. They have an intimate knowledge of how it works, and who is responsible, in the end.
> All the references are anonomous to the applicant, but I am sure I will get good ones.Rather than references, think of them as letters of introduction. They really are nothing more than that, in the end.
> > Fair? You're only applying. Don't presuppose acceptance, or the terms of an acceptance.
> Actually, that is why I am so keen on the US, in the southern hemisphere our PhD programs are 3 years long and thesis only, no more course work. I want an extra two years so I can do more course work, and especially pick up a minor in cognitive / brain science.
You are entering into negotiations, not servitude. There are very few rules, indeed.
> I guess that I figuered they would take a pretty harsh line on my meeting my work committments. What can happen is that I freak out and need to take a week off. If I don't meet a deadline, then I thought I'd be sent home.
A week off? It's routine. Not meeting deadlines without any discussion might be a bad thing. Make a habit of that, and it will look poorly on you.
> But I guess that they are not such meanies that they won't accept compassionate grounds.
Mental health issues are positively correlated with intelligence. Your supervisor might have more personal insight into your struggle than you could even imagine. In other words, your thinking that you are a uniquely challenged individual is probably not correct.
> And I think that I get what you get - if I know compassionate grounds are available then that gives me the strength to not need them.
That worked for me.
> > If you were their chosen candidate, they will not throw away their investment without working to accomodate.
>
> yeah, I never thought of that.It hardly looks good on them to have Ph.D. candidates dropping like flies.
> PS - what are you studying?Just now, life. I am not presently in academia. Long story.
Lar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 20:15:48
In reply to Re: Honesty versus Optimism » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on October 27, 2004, at 8:02:08
Thanks Larry.
Life is the most interesting thing to study of all. I had a couple of years off during my undergraduate degree (mental health stuff and the self stabotage thing) and I continued to do my own research in the library etc.
Sometimes I think I am too much into what I am doing.
It kind of consumes me and I find it hard to think and talk about anything else at times.
But then I am an alter I suppose, and we are supposed to be not very well rounded :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 27, 2004, at 20:23:11
In reply to recommendation letters » alexandra_k, posted by SadWren on October 26, 2004, at 23:39:57
Thanks! I am a bit worried about who to ask for referees. I need three, but my department here is small and there is only one highly suitable person for me to ask (my supervisor). He has done a lot of those for me in the past with scholarship applications etc, so I don't have a problem asking him.
Then theres a guy (American funnily enough) from psych. who has agreed to be a referee for me. He knows what the forms are like, and he has told me to go along and have a chat to him about what sorts of things he should put down etc. So that should be ok. Known him for 7 years now.
But the other one... There isn't really any one else in my dept. who is suitable. One person who I've known for 7 years is still waiting for her PhD to be conferred, and the person who is most in synch with me only arrived maybe 3 or 4 or 5 months ago. I was trying to get a reference out of someone who I studied under on a research scholarship last summer (don't know if anyone remembers the problems I had with him!) - but he has been most incommunicative. Ive sent him critiques that I have done on his papers and he hasn't dignified me with a response all year. Shame on him. Really.
But not sure what to do. I guess I'll try to chase him up, otherwise I am stuck with someone who either (a) hasn't known me for long or (b) isn't really suitably qualified.
Wanna write me a reference Dr B?
(Just kidding :-))
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