![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Marie1 on October 27, 2001, at 9:20:55
Shelli, hi. Haven't seen you post for awhile. Are you okay? It just occurred to me to check PB, oh well. Hope everything's all right.
I heard a public service message on 94.7 (the classic rock station) about a "walk for suicide", from sundown to sunrise, the route being from Fairfax to DC. Being somewhat intimately familiar with this topic, I thought I'd participate. If you (or anyone else) is interested, I'll be happy to post more info. Unfortunately, I didn't catch the date of the walk, or the sponsors, but will find out.
Take care.Marie (shouting to you from the other side of the bridge)
Posted by shelliR on October 30, 2001, at 22:40:46
In reply to Shelli - are you there?, posted by Marie1 on October 27, 2001, at 9:20:55
> Shelli, hi. Haven't seen you post for awhile. Are you okay? It just occurred to me to check PB, oh well. Hope everything's all right.
> I heard a public service message on 94.7 (the classic rock station) about a "walk for suicide", from sundown to sunrise, the route being from Fairfax to DC. Being somewhat intimately familiar with this topic, I thought I'd participate. If you (or anyone else) is interested, I'll be happy to post more info. Unfortunately, I didn't catch the date of the walk, or the sponsors, but will find out.
> Take care.
>
> Marie (shouting to you from the other side of the bridge)Hi Marie,
What a nice surprise. Here I was perusing PSB for the first time in ages and I see my name. I am trying to keep up at least on PB, but this is a crazy time for me workwise (now until Christmas). Is this the case at all with the business that you got involved in (with someone else's money?) Mine is all year, but it is only a Christmas that tons of things are due at the same time.I don't know if I'm ready for a walk for suicide. Especially because I read it first as a walk in favor of suicide (only kidding :-) ).
How's it going for you with your new house and old husband?
A big wave across the bridge.
Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on November 2, 2001, at 20:33:26
In reply to Re: Shelli - are you there? » Marie1, posted by shelliR on October 30, 2001, at 22:40:46
Shelli,
I'm glad your work is keeping you busy, especially since you seem to really enjoy it. My partner has decided to close our business (interior design) due to her impending divorce, child care issues, money, the kitchen sink, etc. So I'll be gainfully unemployed soon. I guess if I have to be unemployed, now's the best time with the holidays coming.
I've decided to bag the walk for suicide. Frankly, I sick of all my mental health concerns. I'm just going to live my life as if I am completely "normal" and hope for the best. My pdoc and I decided to go our separate ways, so he won't be around to remind me how sick I am and what a disfunctional family I have. He's also refused to continue prescribing Prozac for me, so this should be interesting. We've been shopping for health insurance and have no g.p. at the moment, which I pointed out to him, but "The difficulties entailed in the consequences of your choice, of course,will need to be borne by you."
He's got a problem with over-wordiness and redundancy.
Anyway, new house is very nice and husband is still old, thanks for asking.
You know, maybe if it was a walk *to* suicide, I'd be more enthusiastic. Just kidding.
Take care of yourself.Marie
> > Shelli, hi. Haven't seen you post for awhile. Are you okay? It just occurred to me to check PB, oh well. Hope everything's all right.
> > I heard a public service message on 94.7 (the classic rock station) about a "walk for suicide", from sundown to sunrise, the route being from Fairfax to DC. Being somewhat intimately familiar with this topic, I thought I'd participate. If you (or anyone else) is interested, I'll be happy to post more info. Unfortunately, I didn't catch the date of the walk, or the sponsors, but will find out.
> > Take care.
> >
> > Marie (shouting to you from the other side of the bridge)
>
> Hi Marie,
> What a nice surprise. Here I was perusing PSB for the first time in ages and I see my name. I am trying to keep up at least on PB, but this is a crazy time for me workwise (now until Christmas). Is this the case at all with the business that you got involved in (with someone else's money?) Mine is all year, but it is only a Christmas that tons of things are due at the same time.
>
> I don't know if I'm ready for a walk for suicide. Especially because I read it first as a walk in favor of suicide (only kidding :-) ).
>
> How's it going for you with your new house and old husband?
>
> A big wave across the bridge.
>
> Shelli
Posted by shelliR on November 3, 2001, at 11:46:17
In reply to Re: Shelli - are you there? » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 2, 2001, at 20:33:26
>
My pdoc and I decided to go our separate ways, so he won't be around to remind me how sick I am and what a disfunctional family I have. He's also refused to continue prescribing Prozac for me, so this should be interesting. We've been shopping for health insurance and have no g.p. at the moment, which I pointed out to him, but "The difficulties entailed in the consequences of your choice, of course,will need to be borne by you."
> He's got a problem with over-wordiness and redundancy.Wow. I think I must have missed something big. You two have parted? The one who gave you all the trouble about not saying you missed him when he left? What happened? It sounds like you left--you weren't kicked out) (consequences of your choice), but it also sounds almost unethical not to give you prozac until you find another doctor, since it's an insurance matter. The "consequences of your choice" should not leave you even temporarily without your AD. Prozac is not a narcotic. He obviously doesn't want you to go, but this is not
a game.You could probably walk into any community mental
health program and get prozac after explaining the
circumstances. Actually probably after walking into ANY medical clinic. That is unless you want to stop prozac in keeping with your new "I am completely normal" trial. You also might want to try St. John's Wort. Still, if prozac was working, then it is probably silly to make any med changes right now. You don't want to start slipping down even a little, without a therapist.Splash,
Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on November 4, 2001, at 9:56:50
In reply to Re: Shelli - are you there? » Marie1, posted by shelliR on November 3, 2001, at 11:46:17
Shelli,
Hi again. Yes, I am no longer seeing my pdoc. I have a long term addiction problem (prescription diet pills) that he wants me to quit and I don't feel capable of doing that right now. I've just moved, my kids are changing schools, I lost my job, I quit drinking, need I go on? I just don't need another major stressor right now. He gave me an ultimatum- him or the pills, so I quit. He was gambling that my attachment to him was strong enough to force the issue. Apparently it's not. We've been e-mailing back and forth about the prozac, and he's agreed to call in a one month's supply; hopefully by then we'll have a new g.p. If not, I'll take your advice and try a clinic. Each time in the past I've gone without Prozac, I've crashed. I really don't need that to happen either.
You know, we've been working on aquiring new health insurance since July, a month before my husband's cobra coverage was up. Can you believe this? And they're probably going to turn us down due to my mental health problems! This situation really sucks. If something catastrophic happened to one of us we'd be sunk. That has to be a better way...
Okay, enough ranting for a beautiful Sunday. I hope you're able to enjoy the day. Take care.Marie
> >
> My pdoc and I decided to go our separate ways, so he won't be around to remind me how sick I am and what a disfunctional family I have. He's also refused to continue prescribing Prozac for me, so this should be interesting. We've been shopping for health insurance and have no g.p. at the moment, which I pointed out to him, but "The difficulties entailed in the consequences of your choice, of course,will need to be borne by you."
> > He's got a problem with over-wordiness and redundancy.
>
> Wow. I think I must have missed something big. You two have parted? The one who gave you all the trouble about not saying you missed him when he left? What happened? It sounds like you left--you weren't kicked out) (consequences of your choice), but it also sounds almost unethical not to give you prozac until you find another doctor, since it's an insurance matter. The "consequences of your choice" should not leave you even temporarily without your AD. Prozac is not a narcotic. He obviously doesn't want you to go, but this is not
> a game.
>
> You could probably walk into any community mental
> health program and get prozac after explaining the
> circumstances. Actually probably after walking into ANY medical clinic. That is unless you want to stop prozac in keeping with your new "I am completely normal" trial. You also might want to try St. John's Wort. Still, if prozac was working, then it is probably silly to make any med changes right now. You don't want to start slipping down even a little, without a therapist.
>
> Splash,
> Shelli
Posted by shelliR on November 5, 2001, at 22:40:36
In reply to Re: Shelli - are you there? » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 4, 2001, at 9:56:50
> Shelli,
> Hi again. Yes, I am no longer seeing my pdoc. I have a long term addiction problem (prescription diet pills) that he wants me to quit and I don't feel capable of doing that right now.Do the diet pills give you energy? Or do you take them to keep thin? I was just wondering if it's at all similar to a lot of us at PB who are taking stimulents like ritalin and adderall as an adjunct to our antidepressant. I'm taking concerta (long term ritalin) to supplement nardil. I don't know much about diet pills. But if it is related then maybe you an talk to your next pdoc about adding them to the prozac.
I've just moved, my kids are changing schools, I lost my job, I quit drinking, need I go on? I just don't need another major stressor right now. He gave me an ultimatum- him or the pills, so I quit. He was gambling that my attachment to him was strong enough to force the issue.
My therapist gave me an ultimatum about stopping taking vicidin. Unless I got them from a pdoc (not even another type of doctor) she would terminate with me. It was a terrible time for make me make a decision, I was totally suicidal and probably would have picked the vicidin. I went into the hospital and got a consultation from a pdoc from another unit and he put me on oxycontin. There was a lot of controversy at the hospital about it, but the director of the unit I was on (dissociative disorders) supported me, as did the therapist assigned to me at the hospital. I wrote down every narcotic drug I had ever taken, how much and why. They decided after reading my list that I did not have addictive tendencies, just a need to control my depression and nothing else was working. It was pretty amazing to me. My therapist about flipped out, but it fit her rules. For a while there was still a lot of tension between us, I wasn't "allowed" to even mention medication in there, but the tension has passed and we are working pretty well together.
Did your therapist just find out about the diet pills, or did he just decide now that you are ready to give them up? Seems like bad time; you just gave up drinking. Did you give you a deadline date? I did feel that if my therapist hated it so much that maybe I should find another therapist because she started blaming everything on the narcotic. But I couldn't imagine starting over again with a new therapist, especially when my concern was really about meds at that point, not therapy.
Apparently it's not. We've been e-mailing back and forth about the prozac, and he's agreed to call in a one month's supply; hopefully by then we'll have a new g.p.
Well, I'm glad he at least gave you the one month. Do you miss him? Do you think he sincerely felt that he felt he couldn't work with you with the diet pills, or do you think it was a control issue?
Sorry you've had to go through this. Is your husband not working now? Congratulations on the drinking though.
Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on November 7, 2001, at 7:36:07
In reply to Re: Shelli - are you there? » Marie1, posted by shelliR on November 5, 2001, at 22:40:36
Hi, Shelli.
To answer your questions, I don't believe the diet pills do anything that I feel physically *at all*, no doubt due to my tolerance to them. I began using them 20 or so years ago because I had gained about 30 lbs in college and during a stressful relationship I was having (this was in my early 20's). They helped me lose the excess weight, but also I noticed a brighter mood. I've probably been dysthymic most of my life (this according to pdoc), but only officially diagnosed when I had my first major depression. Anyway, I kept using the pills, not for weight loss per se, but because they made me feel better. Phentermine acts on either dopamine or uh, that other chemical - can't recall the name. I theorize that I need Prozac to help regulate the seratonin and phentermine for the other. OR, I'm totally full of shit and simply have a psychological dependence on a drug that is meant for short term use only. At this point, who cares. Without it, I'm depressed, so I continue to use it.
I'm not sure, maybe they do boost my energy somewhat, it's hard to tell. When I was going through my last major depression, I had quit taking them, and, of course, was totally apathetic, lethargic, and energy-less. But that's typical for a depressive state.
Why, specifically, do you take concerta? Is it to augment, counter side effects, or for ocd? And I wonder why that's ok, when my shrink has such a problem with my use of phentermine. Like you, I don't have a problem with addicitions to other drugs. I can either take or leave cocaine, for example, and it seems to me that would be a drug of choice, given my predilection for stims.
(As an aside, please don't get the impression I'm some sort of closet middle aged leftover hippie housewife druggie. No one at the PTA meetings would ever suspect I had any kind of substance abuse problem. I'm a kid of the 60's and 70's when we tried all sorts of illicit drugs, so maybe I'm a little more broad minded about the occasion use of non socially sanctioned drugs. OR, I never really grew up ;-) !)
I've found it interesting to read threads here and on PB about people using opioids and benzos as AD's, because I claim phentermine helps (partially) with my mood. So I understand taking something that others might consider inappropriate for treatment. I doubt that my pdoc would ever sanction oxycontin as an AD. I'm glad you found a pdoc who took you at your word and understands alternative drug choices. Has your therapist since changed her mind about it? Wasn't it difficult to continue working with her after she gave you that ultimatum? Do you discuss your meds with her now?
I had been upfront with my pdoc since day one regarding my use of phentermine, since I really believe it helps me to control my depression. I guess he thought that now was a good time to quit since I seem to have the drinking thing under control. (December 24th will be 6 months!!) One week he talked me into giving him my pills (I've since quit carrying them in my purse!), leaving me enough to ease off slowly. I couldn't do it. I'm not sure if it was a contol issue with him or not. I never understood why he felt he was "colluding" with me on my use of phentermine if he just ignored the issue. There were other issues we intended to work on - like my marriage. I really think he was using my transference for him to coerce me into giving up diet pills. Obviously my need (addiction?) is even stronger than that. I have an enormous regard for my pdoc, actually thought I couldn't make it without him, and not seeing him has been painful. But I'll survive - I always do. I've posted elsewhere that I've lost my dad, mother, and two brothers in the last 9 years; it always feels like I'll never recover, but I do. The pain never goes away though.
Whoa, Shelli, sorry. I never meant to write a dissertation here! If you're still following this, thank you. It is cathartic to write about it.
Take care of yourself.Marie
> > Shelli,
> > Hi again. Yes, I am no longer seeing my pdoc. I have a long term addiction problem (prescription diet pills) that he wants me to quit and I don't feel capable of doing that right now.
>
> Do the diet pills give you energy? Or do you take them to keep thin? I was just wondering if it's at all similar to a lot of us at PB who are taking stimulents like ritalin and adderall as an adjunct to our antidepressant. I'm taking concerta (long term ritalin) to supplement nardil. I don't know much about diet pills. But if it is related then maybe you an talk to your next pdoc about adding them to the prozac.
>
> I've just moved, my kids are changing schools, I lost my job, I quit drinking, need I go on? I just don't need another major stressor right now. He gave me an ultimatum- him or the pills, so I quit. He was gambling that my attachment to him was strong enough to force the issue.
>
> My therapist gave me an ultimatum about stopping taking vicidin. Unless I got them from a pdoc (not even another type of doctor) she would terminate with me. It was a terrible time for make me make a decision, I was totally suicidal and probably would have picked the vicidin. I went into the hospital and got a consultation from a pdoc from another unit and he put me on oxycontin. There was a lot of controversy at the hospital about it, but the director of the unit I was on (dissociative disorders) supported me, as did the therapist assigned to me at the hospital. I wrote down every narcotic drug I had ever taken, how much and why. They decided after reading my list that I did not have addictive tendencies, just a need to control my depression and nothing else was working. It was pretty amazing to me. My therapist about flipped out, but it fit her rules. For a while there was still a lot of tension between us, I wasn't "allowed" to even mention medication in there, but the tension has passed and we are working pretty well together.
>
> Did your therapist just find out about the diet pills, or did he just decide now that you are ready to give them up? Seems like bad time; you just gave up drinking. Did you give you a deadline date? I did feel that if my therapist hated it so much that maybe I should find another therapist because she started blaming everything on the narcotic. But I couldn't imagine starting over again with a new therapist, especially when my concern was really about meds at that point, not therapy.
>
> Apparently it's not. We've been e-mailing back and forth about the prozac, and he's agreed to call in a one month's supply; hopefully by then we'll have a new g.p.
>
> Well, I'm glad he at least gave you the one month. Do you miss him? Do you think he sincerely felt that he felt he couldn't work with you with the diet pills, or do you think it was a control issue?
>
> Sorry you've had to go through this. Is your husband not working now? Congratulations on the drinking though.
>
> Shelli
Posted by shelliR on November 7, 2001, at 22:21:35
In reply to Re: Shelli - are you there? » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 7, 2001, at 7:36:07
> Hi, Shelli.
> To answer your questions, I don't believe the diet pills do anything that I feel physically *at all*, no doubt due to my tolerance to them. I began using them 20 or so years ago because I had gained about 30 lbs in college and during a stressful relationship I was having (this was in my early 20's). They helped me lose the excess weight, but also I noticed a brighter mood. I've probably been dysthymic most of my life (this according to pdoc), but only officially diagnosed when I had my first major depression. Anyway, I kept using the pills, not for weight loss per se, but because they made me feel better. Phentermine acts on either dopamine or uh, that other chemical - can't recall the name. I theorize that I need Prozac to help regulate the seratonin and phentermine for the other. OR, I'm totally full of shit and simply have a psychological dependence on a drug that is meant for short term use only. At this point, who cares. Without it, I'm depressed, so I continue to use it.
> I'm not sure, maybe they do boost my energy somewhat, it's hard to tell. When I was going through my last major depression, I had quit taking them, and, of course, was totally apathetic, lethargic, and energy-less. But that's typical for a depressive state.
> Why, specifically, do you take concerta? Is it to augment, counter side effects, or for ocd? And I wonder why that's ok, when my shrink has such a problem with my use of phentermine. Like you, I don't have a problem with addicitions to other drugs. I can either take or leave cocaine, for example, and it seems to me that would be a drug of choice, given my predilection for stims.
> (As an aside, please don't get the impression I'm some sort of closet middle aged leftover hippie housewife druggie. No one at the PTA meetings would ever suspect I had any kind of substance abuse problem. I'm a kid of the 60's and 70's when we tried all sorts of illicit drugs, so maybe I'm a little more broad minded about the occasion use of non socially sanctioned drugs. OR, I never really grew up ;-) !)
> I've found it interesting to read threads here and on PB about people using opioids and benzos as AD's, because I claim phentermine helps (partially) with my mood. So I understand taking something that others might consider inappropriate for treatment.My pdoc is big on combining ADs with stimulents. He thinks he most often sees extremely noticeble
changes in depression with that combination. I had tried almost every stimulent (for the same reason) with my past pdoc, except I had never tried concerta. All of the other ones made me feel really awful. Because of the slow release of concerta (really ritalin) my body was able to handle it and even later handle regular ritalin when he wanted to give me a jump start in the morning. I don't think it's
very contraversial for pdocs to give it anymore; at least pdocs who go to psychiatric conventions know that it is a very common adjunct to an AD. If it had the same effect on your lethargy, etc. then that would be great; you might have the same benefit with an pdoc santioned drug. I know you don't have a pdoc now, but maybe after you find one. You might be asking potential pdocs about their feeling of stimulents with ADs. I think your therapist should probably accept that. (If he is not too stubborn, and if you would take him back :-)I doubt that my pdoc would ever sanction oxycontin as an AD. I'm glad you found a pdoc who took you at your word and understands alternative drug choices.
Most doctors wouldn't. I am totally freaked out about the price and now wish he had started me on something a lot less expensive. My meds cost me almost $1500 this last month. I came home from the pharmacy and cried and cried tonight, I was so scared about how much this is costing me. I have applied to several drug companies to get assistance, but I don't know what's going to happen. I
might be able to work it out, if not, he's got to change both concerta and oxycontin to shorter acting drugs which are not so expensive. It is number one on my list to bring up on Monday when I see him.Has your therapist since changed her mind about it? Wasn't it difficult to continue working with her after she gave you that ultimatum? Do you discuss your meds with her now?
We've had several major disagreements since I've started working with her in the last three years. I guess that this was my first ultimatum. At first I wasn't sure that I wanted to continue working with her, because figuring out my meds was central to my life, and I wasn't allowed to bring them up in therapy. She said (after learning from my psychiatrist and psychologist that they both supported my trial of codeine) that maybe she would come to change her mind. That was major for her.
It was difficult for a while; I think there was resentment on both sides, but we seem to have ridden through this crisis also. The only way I can defend her point of view was that she really thought that what I was doing was going to destabilize me further and she didn't see any point in doing therapy. With a pdoc in the picture, at least he would have all the responsibility around my drugs. I was just trying to keep alive, and I do resent that neither she nor my pdoc had any options to offer me, yet they outright rejected my option. It's not like I hadn't tried dozens and dozens of other unsuccessful drugs. I can tell that she's never suffered from a horrible depression. Yet of all my therapists, she was the best in working with me when I was in crisis, especially on the phone. Kind of ironic.
> I had been upfront with my pdoc since day one regarding my use of phentermine, since I really believe it helps me to control my depression. I guess he thought that now was a good time to quit since I seem to have the drinking thing under control. (December 24th will be 6 months!!) One week he talked me into giving him my pills (I've since quit carrying them in my purse!), leaving me enough to ease off slowly. I couldn't do it. I'm not sure if it was a contol issue with him or not. I never understood why he felt he was "colluding" with me on my use of phentermine if he just ignored the issue. There were other issues we intended to work on - like my marriage. I really think he was using my transference for him to coerce me into giving up diet pills. Obviously my need (addiction?) is even stronger than that. I have an enormous regard for my pdoc, actually thought I couldn't make it without him, and not seeing him has been painful. But I'll survive - I always do. I've posted elsewhere that I've lost my dad, mother, and two brothers in the last 9 years; it always feels like I'll never recover, but I do. The pain never goes away though.Well, I think it is a good thing to know that you can live without him.. If you ever go back to him, you will always know this. I don't think that going to a therapist implies that we are putting our lives in their hands unless something comes up which puts our life in jeopardy. Collusion was the same concept that my therapist used, only she felt if I had a pdoc prescribing, that she would then not be responsible. I had always believed that *I*
was responsible.> Whoa, Shelli, sorry. I never meant to write a dissertation here! If you're still following this, thank you. It is cathartic to write about it.
> Take care of yourself.
> Marie
> I'm the same way; Once I get started, I want to get if all out!Take care also,
Shelli
>
>
>
>
Posted by shelliR on November 12, 2001, at 8:50:51
In reply to Re: Shelli - are you there? » Marie1, posted by shelliR on November 7, 2001, at 22:21:35
Hi Marie,
You had talked about how your feelings for your therapist sort of took over your whole week until the next session. I was wondering if your inner life seems different without your therapist, or if you continue to think about him as much.
I always wonder how my transference reactions are
going to ever resolve, so that's why I am curious about what happened to your feelings (I remember we
have a whole thread on whether they were transference or not). Anyway, how is that now?
If this feels like too personal a question, don't feel any obligation to answer, it's fine.Hope you're doing well,
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on November 12, 2001, at 10:42:01
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by shelliR on November 12, 2001, at 8:50:51
Posted by Marie1 on November 12, 2001, at 20:59:28
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by shelliR on November 12, 2001, at 8:50:51
Shelli,
Thank you so much for asking; I need to tell someone how I feel and can't tell my husband (for obvious reasons). I could confide in a few friends, but I hesitate to do that, because I feel like they're attitude is "get over it (him)!" Another good friend thinks I have gotten somewhat obsessed with *mental illness*, and shouldn't focus on it so much, so I can't talk to her about *him*.
The fact is, I miss him so much sometimes it physically hurts. I think about him hundreds of times a day. I go miles out of my way to shop at the grocery store he goes to on the off chance I might run into him. I've never had a relationship with anyone like that before. (He is my first (and hopefully last) shrink, and I guess I'm a classic case of transference. I was so vulnerable and (in his words) *desperate* to get better when I first saw him, and he treated me with such concern and kindness, and then I did get better, it's no wonder I fell in love with him. And I always thought that he felt a special bond with me. I still think that. Do I sound pathetic? Can you relate? It's no secret here that my relationship with my husband isn't great, is that why I feel the way I do?
Not seeing him is like quitting heroin or worse - cigarettes - cold turkey. He's always in my thoughts. I can only hope that as time goes by and I have no contact with him, it will get better. But right now, I miss him terribly and have found myself thinking about going back to see him. But I can't. One reason is why I quit in the first place, the second is financial. I can use that $500.00+/mnth I paid out of pocket to see him. Plus, I'm still sort of pissed off at him for his take on things and even refusing at first to prescribe my medication. I'll admit, I'm trying to hold onto that feeling of anger. It helps justify to myself not going back.
If you can relate to *any* of this, please say so. Sometimes I feel so incredibly high school feeling the way I do. The best thing I got out of "In Session" is that apparently this is normal. But knowing that doesn't seem to help.Marie
> Hi Marie,
>
> You had talked about how your feelings for your therapist sort of took over your whole week until the next session. I was wondering if your inner life seems different without your therapist, or if you continue to think about him as much.
>
> I always wonder how my transference reactions are
> going to ever resolve, so that's why I am curious about what happened to your feelings (I remember we
> have a whole thread on whether they were transference or not). Anyway, how is that now?
> If this feels like too personal a question, don't feel any obligation to answer, it's fine.
>
> Hope you're doing well,
>
> Shelli
Posted by mair on November 13, 2001, at 7:13:20
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 12, 2001, at 20:59:28
> Marie - I hope you don't mind my jumping in here. How long had you been seeing this pdoc/therapist?
Mair
Posted by Marie1 on November 13, 2001, at 15:46:53
In reply to Re:followup, posted by mair on November 13, 2001, at 7:13:20
Mair,
I don't mind at all :-). I saw him once a week for 18 months.Marie
> > Marie - I hope you don't mind my jumping in here. How long had you been seeing this pdoc/therapist?
>
> Mair
Posted by Mair on November 13, 2001, at 21:52:53
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 12, 2001, at 20:59:28
Marie - I have no easy answers, but i can certainly identify with what you're experiencing. I sometimes feel the way you describe even if I'm just thinking about terminating a therapeutic relationship. It's as if the way you feel afterwards reinforces for you why you were in therapy to begin with. I also understand about not having anyone with whom you can really process this. My guess is that even if you didn't have the kind of feelings you are describing for your doc, your husband still wouldn't be a receptive audience. If he's anything like my spouse, he may not be unsympathetic, but the level of absorption about the nuances of therapist-patient relationships is just something I think that people who have not been in therapy cannot relate to.
I think 18 months is a long time and that anytime you leave a relationship like this where things are not really resolved, you're going to feel very torn. For me, it was always sort of a low level gnawing anxiety. I also think that there's no point in going back to this guy unless you have some commitment to stick with him for awhile more. Just my humble thoughts.
Mair
Posted by shelliR on November 13, 2001, at 23:03:31
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 12, 2001, at 20:59:28
Hi Marie,
I think Mair is right that you've been with him a long time and the "breakup" was pretty sudden.
It's hard for me to identify in terms of being in love with my therapist (except for one when I was 19-20) they have all been women. And I loved him much the same way as a women, didn't feel sexual toward him, just very cared for by him.
For me with my women therapists, its similar to what Mair said of being afraid of terminating. I have terminated enough times now that I realize that it is worse before for me than after. I missed my last therapist for the first time really, but it wasn't heart wrenching, just sad especially for a kid inside who loved her very much.For me, the fear has more to
do with not feeling grown-up enough to do it on my own. Adding a male therapist to the mix is so confusing. I remember we talked about with a male therapist, he can be both a father and lover image, and you have lost both. If you're a straight woman working with a women, the connection is still very very strong, but I don't have fantasies of running off with her.
.
> The fact is, I miss him so much sometimes it physically hurts. I think about him hundreds of times a day. I go miles out of my way to shop at the grocery store he goes to on the off chance I might run into him. I've never had a relationship with anyone like that before. (He is my first (and hopefully last) shrink, and I guess I'm a classic case of transference. I was so vulnerable and (in his words) *desperate* to get better when I first saw him, and he treated me with such concern and kindness, and then I did get better, it's no wonder I fell in love with him.Do you feel like you have worked out the things in your life that made you go into therapy? That's what it sounds like. If you had stayed in therapy, were there still things to work on. I know you mentioned your marriage, but in general were you winding down?
If you can't get out of this obsession after a while, I would go to another therapist for a consultation to help figure out how much has to do with him, and how much has to do with things in your life that he represents. (maybe a woman :-)
> Not seeing him is like quitting heroin or worse - cigarettes - cold turkey. He's always in my thoughts. I can only hope that as time goes by and I have no contact with him, it will get better. But right now, I miss him terribly and have found myself thinking about going back to see him. But I can't. One reason is why I quit in the first place, the second is financial. I can use that $500.00+/mnth I paid out of pocket to see him. Plus, I'm still sort of pissed off at him for his take on things and even refusing at first to prescribe my medication. I'll admit, I'm trying to hold onto that feeling of anger. It helps justify to myself not going back.> If you can relate to *any* of this, please say so. Sometimes I feel so incredibly high school feeling the way I do. The best thing I got out of "In Session" is that apparently this is normal. But knowing that doesn't seem to help.
Have you talked about these love feelings with him? I haven't read In Session yet (no time til after christmas) but does the author say how this is all resolved. Can it be resolved on your own? Does the author differential between male and female therapists?I can't really identify to the strength of obsession, only to know that you are really in pain. I wonder if it is the right thing to go back and work this through with him. A friend said that she would actually sleep with her therapist if he would (of course, knowing that he wouldn't). And she was a very very faithful type wife and family person. So I think you are right that this is common. I wonder if you pulled closer to your husband (not in talking about this, but in other ways) if that would help the pain.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Shelli
>
Posted by shelliR on November 13, 2001, at 23:52:53
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 12, 2001, at 20:59:28
>Marie,
After I wrote my last post I remembered more things about your therapist from past things that you've written. I had forgotten besides giving you an ultimatum about diet pills, he had also been playing some kind of mind games with you-not telling you when he was going on vacations, etc. And you spend a lot of time in your therapy relationship trying to get him to say that he cared about you. And he'd pull toward you then pull away, etc.
So now I am feeling guilty for writing that maybe you should go back and work things out with him. I'm not sure he is open enough to his own feelings. If he is having any time of ambivent feelings, that isn't good for you, because you are not going to end up happily ever after, no matter how much you feel for him, even if he does care for you.
I'm sounding harsh. I'm not blaming you for falling in love with him--as we talked about this is common, but I am concerned about the way this therapist played into it.
I feel bad saying this, but I also feel like I need to be honest. I think if you want to continue therapy you should be looking for someone else--for your own emotional protection.
Still, that doesn't mean that I don't understand how deeply you are feeling pain.
Sorry if I confused you,
Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on November 14, 2001, at 17:47:58
In reply to Re:followup-Marie, posted by Mair on November 13, 2001, at 21:52:53
Hi Mair,
I appreciate hearing your thoughts; it's obvious you do understand. You summed it up well re: the husband thing. My husband couldn't have been more encouraging about my receiving therapy when I was really sick. But after I remitted, I think he resented the expense, plus, there was some jealousy involved. So he's glad I've quit, and yes, can't relate to what happens in therapy anyway. And you're right about not going back. There's really no point and it would only prolong this agony.Marie
> Marie - I have no easy answers, but i can certainly identify with what you're experiencing. I sometimes feel the way you describe even if I'm just thinking about terminating a therapeutic relationship. It's as if the way you feel afterwards reinforces for you why you were in therapy to begin with. I also understand about not having anyone with whom you can really process this. My guess is that even if you didn't have the kind of feelings you are describing for your doc, your husband still wouldn't be a receptive audience. If he's anything like my spouse, he may not be unsympathetic, but the level of absorption about the nuances of therapist-patient relationships is just something I think that people who have not been in therapy cannot relate to.
>
> I think 18 months is a long time and that anytime you leave a relationship like this where things are not really resolved, you're going to feel very torn. For me, it was always sort of a low level gnawing anxiety. I also think that there's no point in going back to this guy unless you have some commitment to stick with him for awhile more. Just my humble thoughts.
>
> Mair
Posted by Marie1 on November 14, 2001, at 18:39:55
In reply to Re:followup » Marie1, posted by shelliR on November 13, 2001, at 23:03:31
Hi Shelli,
Thank you for making the time to reply to my post. I realize how busy you are; I want you to know I appreciate your thoughtful responses.
In answer to your second reply, the woman who's therapist was playing head games with her was someone posting under the name of Jennie (I think). I always used to read what she wrote because it was invariably about her shrink, and it sounded as though she was having a lot of the same feelings I was/am. I can see why you confused the two of us. Her therapist seemed to be somewhat disingenuious, though, and I wouldn't say the same thing about mine. He's always been honest with me. We never really discussed my transference; I was too embarrassed to bring it up. (Also typical, according to In Session.)
Actually, I'm not sure that I ever really wanted to sleep with him well, ok, I might have imagined something along those lines once or twice :-), but it wasn't really a sexually based feeling. I don't know, I might have had the same reaction to a woman therapist. I remember once when I was in college, I developed an abscessed tooth, and being too far from home, I went to a "townie" dentist, who fixed my tooth. The man was middle aged and fat, yet I developed a crush on him, because he took my pain away. Otherwise, I'm sure I wouldn't have looked at him twice! So I understand the transference thing going on here, but didn't know it could get so intense. But 18 months *is* a long time, especially considering the intimacy - verbal, emotional - that was involved.
Terminating therapy is ok by me. I'm far better off than I was when I started, and feel richer (although not monetarily!) for the experience. But it's time to move on. And anyway,who needs a therapist when I have people like you and Mair to rant to?? ;-)
Thanks for listening.Marie
> Hi Marie,
>
> I think Mair is right that you've been with him a long time and the "breakup" was pretty sudden.
>
> It's hard for me to identify in terms of being in love with my therapist (except for one when I was 19-20) they have all been women. And I loved him much the same way as a women, didn't feel sexual toward him, just very cared for by him.
>
>
> For me with my women therapists, its similar to what Mair said of being afraid of terminating. I have terminated enough times now that I realize that it is worse before for me than after. I missed my last therapist for the first time really, but it wasn't heart wrenching, just sad especially for a kid inside who loved her very much.
>
> For me, the fear has more to
> do with not feeling grown-up enough to do it on my own. Adding a male therapist to the mix is so confusing. I remember we talked about with a male therapist, he can be both a father and lover image, and you have lost both. If you're a straight woman working with a women, the connection is still very very strong, but I don't have fantasies of running off with her.
> .
> > The fact is, I miss him so much sometimes it physically hurts. I think about him hundreds of times a day. I go miles out of my way to shop at the grocery store he goes to on the off chance I might run into him. I've never had a relationship with anyone like that before. (He is my first (and hopefully last) shrink, and I guess I'm a classic case of transference. I was so vulnerable and (in his words) *desperate* to get better when I first saw him, and he treated me with such concern and kindness, and then I did get better, it's no wonder I fell in love with him.
>
> Do you feel like you have worked out the things in your life that made you go into therapy? That's what it sounds like. If you had stayed in therapy, were there still things to work on. I know you mentioned your marriage, but in general were you winding down?
>
> If you can't get out of this obsession after a while, I would go to another therapist for a consultation to help figure out how much has to do with him, and how much has to do with things in your life that he represents. (maybe a woman :-)
>
> > Not seeing him is like quitting heroin or worse - cigarettes - cold turkey. He's always in my thoughts. I can only hope that as time goes by and I have no contact with him, it will get better. But right now, I miss him terribly and have found myself thinking about going back to see him. But I can't. One reason is why I quit in the first place, the second is financial. I can use that $500.00+/mnth I paid out of pocket to see him. Plus, I'm still sort of pissed off at him for his take on things and even refusing at first to prescribe my medication. I'll admit, I'm trying to hold onto that feeling of anger. It helps justify to myself not going back.
>
>
>
> > If you can relate to *any* of this, please say so. Sometimes I feel so incredibly high school feeling the way I do. The best thing I got out of "In Session" is that apparently this is normal. But knowing that doesn't seem to help.
>
> Have you talked about these love feelings with him? I haven't read In Session yet (no time til after christmas) but does the author say how this is all resolved. Can it be resolved on your own? Does the author differential between male and female therapists?
>
> I can't really identify to the strength of obsession, only to know that you are really in pain. I wonder if it is the right thing to go back and work this through with him. A friend said that she would actually sleep with her therapist if he would (of course, knowing that he wouldn't). And she was a very very faithful type wife and family person. So I think you are right that this is common. I wonder if you pulled closer to your husband (not in talking about this, but in other ways) if that would help the pain.
>
> Sorry I can't be of more help.
>
>
> Shelli
> >
Posted by Mair on November 14, 2001, at 21:16:00
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 14, 2001, at 18:39:55
Marie -
Is this a book you're referring to? I didn't mean to necessarily suggest that you not return to therapy, just that you probably shouldn't with this guy unless you are really prepared to make a commitment. I had a therapist/pdoc for 2 years or so when I ended the therapy part. It was really hard and I did keep going back to him in short stretches mostly when I felt in sort of a crisis. It was helpful, but it wasn't really therapy and was probably a waste of money alot of the time. When I did really feel like I was ready to work on things, I wanted a different approach and my pdoc recommended my current therapist. I don't mean to suggest that this was seamless - it wasn't. I think it was probably okay for me to take a break and at the time I was really feeling the crunch financially. It's amazing how much disposable income you seem to have when you're not paying therapy bills. But it was hard not to have that continuous connection. Feel free to rant and vent any time.
Mair
Posted by shelliR on November 14, 2001, at 21:41:44
In reply to Re:followup » shelliR, posted by Marie1 on November 14, 2001, at 18:39:55
Hi Marie,
> In answer to your second reply, the woman who's therapist was playing head games with her was someone posting under the name of Jennie (I think). I always used to read what she wrote because it was invariably about her shrink, and it sounded as though she was having a lot of the same feelings I was/am. I can see why you confused the two of us. Her therapist seemed to be somewhat disingenuious, though, and I wouldn't say the same thing about mine.
Oh my. Really sorry about that. I did get the two of your therapy situations mixed up. Well, I'm glad that the other therapist is not yours!
He's always been honest with me. We never really discussed my transference; I was too embarrassed to bring it up. (Also typical, according to In Session.)
I'll have to read In Session and find out if the author thinks that transference is *always* worked out, and to see if she (?) directly addresses the "how" question.
So I understand the transference thing going on here, but didn't know it could get so intense.
My transference reactions also happen very quickly, although they are getting less intense in general.(after about 20 years in therapy :-) ) The doctor who heads the unit I go in in the hospital says that transference in general only gets worked out after one has truely mourned and grieved for what they didn't get as children.
That is her take; I don't really know.> But 18 months *is* a long time, especially considering the intimacy - verbal, emotional - that was involved.
Absolutely.
> Terminating therapy is ok by me. I'm far better off than I was when I started, and feel richer (although not monetarily!) for the experience. But it's time to move on. And anyway,who needs a therapist when I have people like you and Mair to rant to?? ;-)
Well hopefully, the intensity will start at some point to fade into the background. Be patient with yourself. And I think Mair made a really good point about " no point in going back to this guy unless you have some commitment to stick
with him for awhile more."Feel free to yell across the river at any time.
Take care, and again my apologies,
Shelli
Posted by wendy b. on November 15, 2001, at 10:02:29
In reply to Re:followup » Marie1, posted by shelliR on November 14, 2001, at 21:41:44
Hi everyone, Marie, Shelli, Mair,
I remember the discussion with the woman whose shrink was playing head games, her name was Jenny R. I wonder if she is still here or lurking, and how she's doing now. This discussion has been really honest and engaging and supportive... I've been reading with interest and concern...
Marie, yes 18 months is a long time, but it will get better. I still feel that it's like suddenly being cut off from a lover or other such 'intimate,' one day he's there, the next - he's not. *Of course* this has got to be one of the most traumatic things a person could go through. You were intimate and shared your inner life with someone for a long time, and now you can't and you miss it. I can understand that very well from experience.
And I imagine it's hard to grieve for a person when you know they're still alive and functioning, and you might run into them at the grocery (granted, a grocery you've driven out of the way for, in order to accidentally-on-purpose run into him). I truely believe, from 8 years in therapy with two women, that the transference stuff *is* all to do with childhood projections, as Shelli's dr says: "transference in general only gets worked out after one has truely mourned and grieved for what they didn't get as children." I think this is right, I've experienced this with my mother, through years of getting the transference worked out with a maternal-figure therapist, so that my mom and I can now have a decent relationship.
Have you figured any of that stuff out? It could give you insights as to why you miss your therapist so much. If that's getting personal, sorry. I just feel so much for you and understand your predicament entirely... You are in my thoughts.
Sorry to interject my thoughts on an otherwise perfectly fine thread...
Wendy
> Hi Marie,
>
> > In answer to your second reply, the woman who's therapist was playing head games with her was someone posting under the name of Jennie (I think). I always used to read what she wrote because it was invariably about her shrink, and it sounded as though she was having a lot of the same feelings I was/am. I can see why you confused the two of us. Her therapist seemed to be somewhat disingenuious, though, and I wouldn't say the same thing about mine.
>
> Oh my. Really sorry about that. I did get the two of your therapy situations mixed up. Well, I'm glad that the other therapist is not yours!
>
> He's always been honest with me. We never really discussed my transference; I was too embarrassed to bring it up. (Also typical, according to "In Session".)
>
> I'll have to read "In Session" and find out if the author thinks that transference is *always* worked out, and to see if she (?) directly addresses the "how" question.
>
> So I understand the transference thing going on here, but didn't know it could get so intense.
>
> My transference reactions also happen very quickly, although they are getting less intense in general.(after about 20 years in therapy :-) ) The doctor who heads the unit I go in in the hospital says that transference in general only gets worked out after one has truely mourned and grieved for what they didn't get as children.
> That is her take; I don't really know.
>
> > But 18 months *is* a long time, especially considering the intimacy - verbal, emotional - that was involved.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> > Terminating therapy is ok by me. I'm far better off than I was when I started, and feel richer (although not monetarily!) for the experience. But it's time to move on. And anyway,who needs a therapist when I have people like you and Mair to rant to?? ;-)
>
> Well hopefully, the intensity will start at some point to fade into the background. Be patient with yourself. And I think Mair made a really good point about " no point in going back to this guy unless you have some commitment to stick
> with him for awhile more."
>
> Feel free to yell across the river at any time.
>
> Take care, and again my apologies,
>
> Shelli
Posted by Marie1 on November 19, 2001, at 9:13:23
In reply to Re:followup comments, Marie, posted by wendy b. on November 15, 2001, at 10:02:29
Hi! Hope this works. We experienced a major crash last week and had to replace our computer. As a result, I now have my own (no sharing!!) but I'm about as illiterate as they come (computer-wise), so the delay has been getting it set up. So, in response to your posts-
Mair, In Session is a book I read, recommended by Judy, about the relationship between therapists (male and female) and their women clients/patients. I've had a lot of questions about transference since shortly after I started therapy. You can find out the author and full title by doing a search here, if you're interested.
Shelli, the author of In Session doesn't really address the *how* of managing transference, which I found rather disappointing. I mean, it was good to know that what was happening was normal, but my goal in reading the book was figuring out what to do with it.
Wendy, there was a discussion sometime earlier about the roots and causes of transference, and I still don't really get it, or buy the idea that it somehow stems from what was missing in your childhood. It makes sense to me that a therapist/patient relationship can easily lead to the kind of feelings I developed for my pdoc, who was also my therapist. So, I don't know, guess it's all moot now. And thanks for your 2 cents.Marie
> Hi everyone, Marie, Shelli, Mair,
>
> I remember the discussion with the woman whose shrink was playing head games, her name was Jenny R. I wonder if she is still here or lurking, and how she's doing now. This discussion has been really honest and engaging and supportive... I've been reading with interest and concern...
>
> Marie, yes 18 months is a long time, but it will get better. I still feel that it's like suddenly being cut off from a lover or other such 'intimate,' one day he's there, the next - he's not. *Of course* this has got to be one of the most traumatic things a person could go through. You were intimate and shared your inner life with someone for a long time, and now you can't and you miss it. I can understand that very well from experience.
>
> And I imagine it's hard to grieve for a person when you know they're still alive and functioning, and you might run into them at the grocery (granted, a grocery you've driven out of the way for, in order to accidentally-on-purpose run into him). I truely believe, from 8 years in therapy with two women, that the transference stuff *is* all to do with childhood projections, as Shelli's dr says: "transference in general only gets worked out after one has truely mourned and grieved for what they didn't get as children." I think this is right, I've experienced this with my mother, through years of getting the transference worked out with a maternal-figure therapist, so that my mom and I can now have a decent relationship.
>
> Have you figured any of that stuff out? It could give you insights as to why you miss your therapist so much. If that's getting personal, sorry. I just feel so much for you and understand your predicament entirely... You are in my thoughts.
>
> Sorry to interject my thoughts on an otherwise perfectly fine thread...
>
> Wendy
>
>
>
> > Hi Marie,
> >
> > > In answer to your second reply, the woman who's therapist was playing head games with her was someone posting under the name of Jennie (I think). I always used to read what she wrote because it was invariably about her shrink, and it sounded as though she was having a lot of the same feelings I was/am. I can see why you confused the two of us. Her therapist seemed to be somewhat disingenuious, though, and I wouldn't say the same thing about mine.
> >
> > Oh my. Really sorry about that. I did get the two of your therapy situations mixed up. Well, I'm glad that the other therapist is not yours!
> >
> > He's always been honest with me. We never really discussed my transference; I was too embarrassed to bring it up. (Also typical, according to "In Session".)
> >
> > I'll have to read "In Session" and find out if the author thinks that transference is *always* worked out, and to see if she (?) directly addresses the "how" question.
> >
> > So I understand the transference thing going on here, but didn't know it could get so intense.
> >
> > My transference reactions also happen very quickly, although they are getting less intense in general.(after about 20 years in therapy :-) ) The doctor who heads the unit I go in in the hospital says that transference in general only gets worked out after one has truely mourned and grieved for what they didn't get as children.
> > That is her take; I don't really know.
> >
> > > But 18 months *is* a long time, especially considering the intimacy - verbal, emotional - that was involved.
> >
> > Absolutely.
> >
> > > Terminating therapy is ok by me. I'm far better off than I was when I started, and feel richer (although not monetarily!) for the experience. But it's time to move on. And anyway,who needs a therapist when I have people like you and Mair to rant to?? ;-)
> >
> > Well hopefully, the intensity will start at some point to fade into the background. Be patient with yourself. And I think Mair made a really good point about " no point in going back to this guy unless you have some commitment to stick
> > with him for awhile more."
> >
> > Feel free to yell across the river at any time.
> >
> > Take care, and again my apologies,
> >
> > Shelli
Posted by mair on November 19, 2001, at 11:54:49
In reply to Mair, Shelli, Wendy..., posted by Marie1 on November 19, 2001, at 9:13:23
>
> "Hi! Hope this works. We experienced a major crash last week and had to replace our computer. As a result, I now have my own (no sharing!!)"This sounds like me. After years of being the last person to get computer time in our household, I have a new laptop, courtesy of my office. Unfortunately, we still just have one phone line so my internet time is pretty limited, but it is wonderful to have that access, and last night when both of my teenagers had papers due, it was wonderful to have the second computer to avoid horrible fights over the household PC.
I'll have to check out the book. I've been curious about this because I've always worked hard at keeping my emotional distance from my therapists, I guess not necessarily to my advantage. Without getting into it too much more deeply, I asked my therapist recently what happened if there was no transference. She said that doesn't happen.
I hope everything's going ok, and you're dealing ok with therapist withdrawal.
Mair
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