![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sar on July 23, 2001, at 23:11:28
today i recieved news that an aquaintance of mine died of morphine overdose.
am curious to know if "accidental overdose" is the medically/socially acceptable term over "suicide."
thanks,
sar
Posted by mgrueni on July 24, 2001, at 13:58:11
In reply to overdose, posted by sar on July 23, 2001, at 23:11:28
Hi Sar,
first I want you to know that I am german, so please excuse my poor english (at least I don`t need "bablefish translator" ;o) )
I learnt mainly british english - maybe that makes my post even harder to read? ;o)
< today i recieved news that an aquaintance of mine died of morphine overdose. >:o(
I also know somebody who nearly died of an overdose + alcohol abuse (that was, before we met each other). Thankfully he survived and is now a good friend of mine.
< am curious to know if "accidental overdose" is the medically/socially acceptable term over "suicide." >I think "accidental overdose" sounds a little *factitious*. Accidental? Does that mean someone confused his normal dosage of 1 pill/day with 10 pills/hour by accident? That is very unlikely to happen in my opion, so it`s just an attempt to cover the truth by using impersonal words. IMHO this is really sad as a suicide is a suicide and not an accident.
Just curious...but, why did you want to know?Take care,
Micha
Posted by kid_A on July 24, 2001, at 14:40:01
In reply to Re: overdose, posted by mgrueni on July 24, 2001, at 13:58:11
> I think "accidental overdose" sounds a little *factitious*. Accidental? Does that mean someone confused his normal dosage of 1 pill/day with 10 pills/hour by accident?
I think it all depends on if they are shooting morphine or taking it in some pill form, I didn't think you could take morphine in pill form, but I could be wrong...
I think it is very easy to overdose on injected drugs... In fact, just yesterday a friend mentioned that a mutual aquaintance of ours had overdosed on morphine... Her friend and her took the same amount, he woke up, she didnt...
I think speaking from experience, you can be in a state where you want to take as much as you possibly can to take you to the limit, but not over it, you aren't necisarily secretly wishing to die... you just want to feel good for as long as possible... the pathology of drug abuse is not directly tied to suicide, but i do think it is directly tied to underlying depression...
my 2cents...
Posted by stjames on July 24, 2001, at 17:44:32
In reply to overdose, posted by sar on July 23, 2001, at 23:11:28
> today i recieved news that an aquaintance of mine died of morphine overdose.
>
> am curious to know if "accidental overdose" is the medically/socially acceptable term over "suicide."James here.....
Unless there is proof that they wanted to kill themselves, and therefor overshot the drugs, it would be called "accidental overdose". It is very easy to OD and die on injectable drugs, but not intend to.
James
Posted by mgrueni on July 25, 2001, at 14:54:59
In reply to Re: overdose, posted by kid_A on July 24, 2001, at 14:40:01
Hi
< I think it all depends on if they are shooting morphine or taking it in some pill form, I didn't think you could take morphine in pill form, but I could be wrong... >
I didn`t think so, either. It was just an example to explain what my point is.
< I think it is very easy to overdose on injected drugs... In fact, just yesterday a friend mentioned that a mutual aquaintance of ours had overdosed on morphine... Her friend and her took the same amount, he woke up, she didnt... >
Sorry to hear that. :o(
Well, not sure if I mentioned that I am from germany? Here it is so, that strong pain killers, such as morphine are only prescribed very *carefully*. If someone gets a "take home" dose, he/she would be instructed very thoroughly before, or, if the doctor doesn`t think the patient is able to manage it on his own, there would be a nurse who would administer the morphine dosage. So I thought an *accidental* overdose is unlikely to happen.. but of course, I also can be wrong.Maybe I got sar`s initial question wrong?
"am curious to know if "accidental overdose" is the medically/socially acceptable term over "suicide."sounds to me as he/she (?) was asking if "accidental overdose" is commonly used in the medical world as another term for "suicide".
Hmm...in case that I misunderstood something, I apologize and do promise that I will buy a better dictionary. :o)Take care all
Micha
Posted by sar on July 26, 2001, at 3:44:53
In reply to Re: overdose, posted by mgrueni on July 25, 2001, at 14:54:59
i appreciated all responses very much.
he had been shooting up. not pill form. but he was also going to one of the Swankiest Universities in the World. This guy was fucking brilliant. but depresst, too. kind of--well, impulsive to the n'th degree.
i suspsect it is suicide because that is projection; i am a suicidal person so i think he committed suicide; my friends think he OD'd or was murdered. HOWEVER, he'd "expressed wishes" prior to his death regarding burial, etc, which makes me strongly think that it is suicide--what physically healthy 25 yr-old expresses these wishes?
so my answer is that he was menatlly ill. all in all, i think it was classy as hell. no one will know. it gets ruled as an "accidental overdose" and maybe it was. he was quite fond of drugs, but (IMHO) too smart to OD; crazy enough to suicide.
he was classy & smart.
Posted by Wendy B. on July 27, 2001, at 14:43:44
In reply to Re: overdose, posted by sar on July 26, 2001, at 3:44:53
> i appreciated all responses very much.
>
> he had been shooting up. not pill form. but he was also going to one of the Swankiest Universities in the World. This guy was fucking brilliant. but depresst, too. kind of--well, impulsive to the n'th degree.
>
> i suspsect it is suicide because that is projection; i am a suicidal person so i think he committed suicide; my friends think he OD'd or was murdered. HOWEVER, he'd "expressed wishes" prior to his death regarding burial, etc, which makes me strongly think that it is suicide--what physically healthy 25 yr-old expresses these wishes?
>
> so my answer is that he was menatlly ill. all in all, i think it was classy as hell. no one will know. it gets ruled as an "accidental overdose" and maybe it was. he was quite fond of drugs, but (IMHO) too smart to OD; crazy enough to suicide.
>
> he was classy & smart.
Dear Sar,
I'm sorry to hear this, and that it brought up stuff for you. I wish I understood what is classy about suicide, even in the way this guy did it... Since you describe yourself as suicidal, don't you think this glorifies it, by calling his method classy? Is is possible to dissuade yourself that >any< way of killing yourself is ok?
If I want you to stay around, because you seem like such a nice person who is trying to get it together, is that just me being selfish?A hug,
Wendy
Posted by sar on July 27, 2001, at 21:22:41
In reply to Re: overdose » sar, posted by Wendy B. on July 27, 2001, at 14:43:44
> >
>
>
> Dear Sar,
> I'm sorry to hear this, and that it brought up stuff for you. I wish I understood what is classy about suicide, even in the way this guy did it... Since you describe yourself as suicidal, don't you think this glorifies it, by calling his method classy? Is is possible to dissuade yourself that >any< way of killing yourself is ok?
> If I want you to stay around, because you seem like such a nice person who is trying to get it together, is that just me being selfish?
>
> A hug,
> WendyWendy,
thank you. i don't even know what to say. my theories on suicide differ so much from the norm that i believe they must be bizarre or extreme, and it's such a sticky topic.
how can suicide be classy? i don't know, maybe it's just my idealization of it. Purposeful overdose, like eating too many opium cakes or clenching an asp to your bosom or jumping into an active volcano seem--appropriate? Nobly forlorn?
shooting yourself in the head=not classy. getting a cop to shoot you=not classy.
i hope this isn't making you uncomfortable...
one moment i am drunkenly suicidal, the next morning i am in giggles and eating my organic vegan food lingering over hot tea and loving the sun. dr. jekyll & ms. hyde.
JahL once wrote that if he goes to a party and isn't having a good time, he leaves, and it's no big deal.
just such a private choice.
i have lots of doctors and pills, lots of my anxiety is gone, i listen to music now and have started perusing non-psychology books in the first time for more than a year.
i feel so weird. i feel like my views are just completely socially unacceptable, stop eating meat and allow people to die.
thanks Wendy, and hugs to you too.
Posted by Wendy B. on July 28, 2001, at 14:48:07
In reply to Re: overdose, posted by sar on July 27, 2001, at 21:22:41
(...)
> > If I want you to stay around, because you seem like such a nice person who is trying to get it together, is that just me being selfish?
> >
> > A hug,
> > Wendy
>
>
>
> Wendy,
>
> thank you. i don't even know what to say. my theories on suicide differ so much from the norm that i believe they must be bizarre or extreme, and it's such a sticky topic.
>not so sticky, I've wondered all my life how, if someone wants to be gone from this world, their right to do that should be taken away by zealous hotline helpers and concerned shrinks. I have trouble with it myself...
I think I live outside the norm most of the time, I hate the banal. sometimes I just want everybody to be well, and you get attached to certain folks on the BBoard. you think the right thing to say is: 'killing yourself is not the way out of your particular hell, please think again.'
> how can suicide be classy? i don't know, maybe it's just my idealization of it. Purposeful overdose, like eating too many opium cakes or clenching an asp to your bosom or jumping into an active volcano seem--appropriate? Nobly forlorn?I get the concept, intellectually. Your examples are very funny, excuse the laughter (it's a waayyy serious subject, man). I think I can understand the urge to do away wih myself, too, I've had it once or twice. my sister's had it, just this low-level 'what's the point of living' attitude most of our lives. at extreme moments we have stepped near the edge, literally. our noble way is drowning, but we're both good swimmers. go figure...
I had a friend whose method would have been drowning too, but he would do it really BIG, like jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, you know, high drama.
Is fantasizing about it the same as glorifying it, or idealizing it?>
> shooting yourself in the head=not classy. getting a cop to shoot you=not classy.
>
> i hope this isn't making you uncomfortable...No, it's really ok... But Hemmingway shot himself in the head, actually, he put a shotgun on the ground, put his mouth over it, and reached down and blew his head off, or so I've read. And he was a classy guy, I guess...
> one moment i am drunkenly suicidal, the next morning i am in giggles and eating my organic vegan food lingering over hot tea and loving the sun. dr. jekyll & ms. hyde.yeah, it's always the big back and forth. I don't drink or do anything more than pot and/or two drinks, tops, because my meds for BP II might cause me to have a seizure (they say)... so I'm not a good help on that issue. I drank a lot when I was in college, but now it's too hard on my body... have you ever done the detox route, or a 12-step program? i know lots of people find the AA thing very weird, too rigid, too much god/spirituality/higher power stuff... whatever.
organic, vegan food, though, I've been getting into that more and more lately, where I live is a particularly good environment for that kind of eating, that lifestyle.
but the dichotomy is clear here: if you care enough about your body during one part of the day to eat vegan, organic food, and you love it! and then don't care a thing about your body later when you drink too much... what's it all about?
> JahL once wrote that if he goes to a party and isn't having a good time, he leaves, and it's no big deal.you mean you just stay, no matter what, and get trashed?
> just such a private choice.sometimes I think it's the only way for some people, if you're drinking, you just do it till you're numb...
> i have lots of doctors and pills, lots of my anxiety is gone, i listen to music now and have started perusing non-psychology books in the first time for more than a year.music is the way, man, it really soothes me, too, playing guitar as well... like I said, it seemed from your posts that you're really getting some moments of clarity and lightness... being able to laugh and enjoy life while drinking tea and eating excellent food is a good sign, no?
> i feel so weird. i feel like my views are just completely socially unacceptable, stop eating meat and allow people to die.
not at all! I'm only wanting to understand better, and yeah, stop eating meat and allow people to die sounds ok, I'm not calling these things socially unacceptable. I'm sorry if you took it that way.
> thanks Wendy, and hugs to you too.I'm behind you, for whatever that's worth...
xox,
Wendy
Posted by sar on July 29, 2001, at 3:11:41
In reply to Re: overdose » sar, posted by Wendy B. on July 28, 2001, at 14:48:07
> (...)
>
> > > If I want you to stay around, because you seem like such a nice person who is trying to get it together, is that just me being selfish?
> > >
> > > A hug,
> > > Wendy
> >
> >
> >
> > Wendy,
> >
> > thank you. i don't even know what to say. my theories on suicide differ so much from the norm that i believe they must be bizarre or extreme, and it's such a sticky topic.
> >
>
> not so sticky, I've wondered all my life how, if someone wants to be gone from this world, their right to do that should be taken away by zealous hotline helpers and concerned shrinks. I have trouble with it myself...
> I think I live outside the norm most of the time, I hate the banal. sometimes I just want everybody to be well, and you get attached to certain folks on the BBoard. you think the right thing to say is: 'killing yourself is not the way out of your particular hell, please think again.'
I think that because we're Americans (are you American? or a Brit, or from where?) suicide is completely taboo. I've taken many anthropology classes and have learned that in other countries, breastfeeding a child until age 5 is the norm and considered very healthy. Here, that would be consisdered sexual abuse. In Japan, kamikaze missions and hari kari (Is that what it was called) was very noble and humble; here, it would be considered illegal and a reason to haul you off in an ambulance.
>
> > how can suicide be classy? i don't know, maybe it's just my idealization of it. Purposeful overdose, like eating too many opium cakes or clenching an asp to your bosom or jumping into an active volcano seem--appropriate? Nobly forlorn?
>
> I get the concept, intellectually. Your examples are very funny, excuse the laughter (it's a waayyy serious subject, man). I think I can understand the urge to do away wih myself, too, I've had it once or twice. my sister's had it, just this low-level 'what's the point of living' attitude most of our lives. at extreme moments we have stepped near the edge, literally. our noble way is drowning, but we're both good swimmers. go figure...
> I had a friend whose method would have been drowning too, but he would do it really BIG, like jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, you know, high drama.
> Is fantasizing about it the same as glorifying it, or idealizing it?Ah, drowning...isn't that how Virginia Woolf did it? Tonight as I was driving to the store to lift some wine (because I am broke and it is past hours) I thought of Marshall McLuhan--what did he say, "the message is the medium" or somesuch? "the medium is the message"? Mila brought it up some time ago, speaking of once wanting to slit her wrists, but intsead allowed herself to become a "handless maiden." Let others take the burden. The message of an overdose is to blissfully stop the pain, to go to sleep forever.
> > shooting yourself in the head=not classy. getting a cop to shoot you=not classy.
> >
> > i hope this isn't making you uncomfortable...
>
> No, it's really ok... But Hemmingway shot himself in the head, actually, he put a shotgun on the ground, put his mouth over it, and reached down and blew his head off, or so I've read. And he was a classy guy, I guess...
>
You're right. Hem was quite a talented but tortured bastard; however, he was a sportly Man's Man and (as I imagine) simply would not have done with a quivering pill overdose or humanly blood. He wrote like bullets--that extreme, cowboy-style short powerful prose--and died by bullet. Powerful. Since you say you're not freaked out by this topic, I'll tell you this: at my most suicidal, I researched it extensively on the web and came across a site that contains photos of both successful and unsuccessful suicides. Gun through the mouth or in the side of the head is not a foolproof method--it could quite possibly just leave you with massively ugly head injuries.> > one moment i am drunkenly suicidal, the next morning i am in giggles and eating my organic vegan food lingering over hot tea and loving the sun. dr. jekyll & ms. hyde.
>
> yeah, it's always the big back and forth. I don't drink or do anything more than pot and/or two drinks, tops, because my meds for BP II might cause me to have a seizure (they say)... so I'm not a good help on that issue. I drank a lot when I was in college, but now it's too hard on my body... have you ever done the detox route, or a 12-step program? i know lots of people find the AA thing very weird, too rigid, too much god/spirituality/higher power stuff... whatever.
> organic, vegan food, though, I've been getting into that more and more lately, where I live is a particularly good environment for that kind of eating, that lifestyle.
> but the dichotomy is clear here: if you care enough about your body during one part of the day to eat vegan, organic food, and you love it! and then don't care a thing about your body later when you drink too much... what's it all about?it's all about feeling! i became a big animal-rights activist at age 16, not to feel better physically, but eating tortured/dead animals had always disturbed me. I think now it's an interesting parallel--I turned veggie when receiving the most abuse from others (parents and guys). now it's all somatic; not only do i still strongly believe in the animal-rights movement, but it feels so good to eat raw/organic/vegan! it just feels good. and when i don't eat that way i don't feel guilty (i'll have some cheddar or white bread etc sometimes) i just don't feel as good.
when i don't drink i don't feel guilty or proud, i just don't feel as good.
besides, eating healthy helps to temper the impending beer belly!
> > JahL once wrote that if he goes to a party and isn't having a good time, he leaves, and it's no big deal.
>
> you mean you just stay, no matter what, and get trashed?
No. (I mean I've done that, but that's not what i was talking about.) Jah's metaphor was the party=life; if you're not having a good time you leave. (Walk home in the case of a party; kill yourslef in the case of life.)>
> > just such a private choice.
>
> sometimes I think it's the only way for some people, if you're drinking, you just do it till you're numb...
>
>
> > i have lots of doctors and pills, lots of my anxiety is gone, i listen to music now and have started perusing non-psychology books in the first time for more than a year.
>
> music is the way, man, it really soothes me, too, playing guitar as well... like I said, it seemed from your posts that you're really getting some moments of clarity and lightness... being able to laugh and enjoy life while drinking tea and eating excellent food is a good sign, no?
i am. i used to be so against pyschiatric medication, but now i'm alll for it. i realize now that my depression led to so much delusional thinking (like, if someone were nice to me, i'd think they were making fun of me, knowing what a loser i actually am and trying to humor me or see my reaction to their kindness so they could laugh about it later)--and prozac/klonopin have seriously reduced my ruminating/paranoid thoughts and have led me to hermit to social butterfly, and now so uncomfortable with the responsibility of the transition that i find myself hermitting up again.
> > i feel so weird. i feel like my views are just completely socially unacceptable, stop eating meat and allow people to die.
>
> not at all! I'm only wanting to understand better, and yeah, stop eating meat and allow people to die sounds ok, I'm not calling these things socially unacceptable. I'm sorry if you took it that way.i was just hesitant to discuss suicide in a practical, honest way because it is taboo, & i've no desire to freak anyone out. Another thing I admired about Jah is one post (awhile back) in which he said he was suicidal; another (new) poster accused him of "crying wolf" and not to mention it again if he didn't immediately mean it or some such, and his rebuke was that his chronically suicidal feelings legitimately made him a suicidal person without cries for help or what have you. all regrets if i'm somehow misinterpreting the exchange between Jah and the other poster, I just haven't got it in me to search the archives.
i hope this doesn't sound too pessimistic, but plenty of people live 75 years worth of shit then die of cancer. in a nursing home eating creamed corn.
i'd rather (if i don't rebound from all of this) take a massive morphine overdose and not deal with 50 years of frowns.
i've got hope. a decent job, supportive parents, a few kind friends...admittance to excellent college, nice shoes...
it's my moods that bring me down. the loserish feeling. insecurity. no romantic love, the ones i love never love me back. existentialism. the craving for self-destructive activity--drunk driving, any drug, danger etc--
> > thanks Wendy, and hugs to you too.
>
> I'm behind you, for whatever that's worth...It's worth a lot, and I thank you for it. I remember you posting much more often when I fist began visiting PSB back in Feb or so~where have you gone? Give us a shout out, chick, and let us know how you are.
Warmly,
sar> xox,
> Wendy
Posted by Wendy B. on August 1, 2001, at 12:06:26
In reply to Re: overdose » Wendy B., posted by sar on July 29, 2001, at 3:11:41
(...)
> > not so sticky, I've wondered all my life how, if someone wants to be gone from this world, their right to do that should be taken away by zealous hotline helpers and concerned shrinks. I have trouble with it myself...
> > I think I live outside the norm most of the time, I hate the banal. sometimes I just want everybody to be well, and you get attached to certain folks on the BBoard. you think the right thing to say is: 'killing yourself is not the way out of your particular hell, please think again.'> I think that because we're Americans (are you American? or a Brit, or from where?) suicide is completely taboo.
I'm not a Brit, but I was married to one. Actually, still am, can't seem to get the damned divorce finalized, we've been separated for 6 years. So I have leftover brit-isms in my speech/writing. I don't say "bloody hell," though. I say, "Jesus fucking Christ," which shocks the hell out of Brits…
>I've taken many anthropology classes and have learned that in other countries, breastfeeding a child until age 5 is the norm and considered very healthy.
Yeah, I had some Brazilian friends who did that, it seemed fine to me, just a little draining for the mother. It's hard on the body to nurse for that long, you have to have the right nutrition, eat a lot, drink a lot of milk, get all the iron and folate you need, and are supplying for the baby-child. It's tough. I'm glad I didn't personally have to do that.
>Here, that would be consisdered sexual abuse.
No, probably just super-weird. Plus, you can't send your child to daycare if they're dependent on your tits for some or most of their nutrition.
>In Japan, kamikaze missions and hari kari (Is that what it was called) was very noble and humble; here, it would be considered illegal and a reason to haul you off in an ambulance.
Yeah. But I'm glad I don't belong to a society that thinks ritual suicide is an act to be proud of, or that suicide in the defense of the fascist realm was considered noble... Just IMHO.
My fave example is the family bed, which almost every culture, besides ours, participates in, to some degree. Because they don't have the space or the room. The US is so big, so spread out, we all have our own plots, our own houses, our own rooms… it's more healthy for us to be in our own little beds than all together in one? I honestly don't know the answer to this, just saying that loads of our daily habits are culturally produced, historically late, practices. All influenced by the industrial revolution, and twisted by the later revolutions of global capitalization, and then the 'Information Age.' Which have nothing to do with being 'normal.'> (...)
> Ah, drowning...isn't that how Virginia Woolf did it? Tonight as I was driving to the store to lift some wine (because I am broke and it is past hours)Ahhh, stealing… the impulsive behavior again... Don't get caught out there, babe, it's gonna be no fun *at all* to sit in the cop station waiting for the 'rents to come pick you up and pay the bail for ya…
>I thought of Marshall McLuhan--what did he say, "the message is the medium" or somesuch? "the medium is the message"?
Yeah, the medium is the message. But he said a lot of other things, too. I threw all his books out during one of my many moves, or I'd quote you something boring.
>Mila brought it up some time ago, speaking of once wanting to slit her wrists, but intsead allowed herself to become a "handless maiden." Let others take the burden.
I didn't catch that reference, what was she talking about? Cutting off her hands? Or the net effect if you succeeded slitting your wrists? I always read and like Mila's posts.
(...)
> > > i hope this isn't making you uncomfortable...
> >
> > No, it's really ok... But Hemmingway shot himself in the head, actually, he put a shotgun on the ground, put his mouth over it, and reached down and blew his head off, or so I've read. And he was a classy guy, I guess...
> >
> You're right. Hem was quite a talented but tortured bastard; however, he was a sportly Man's Man and (as I imagine) simply would not have done with a quivering pill overdose or humanly blood. He wrote like bullets--that extreme, cowboy-style short powerful prose--and died by bullet.Yeah, he used to go on African safari's, shooting up them there tigers and lions and giraffes and shit... A real Man's Man with real big guns (standing for the imagined real big penis).
> Powerful. Since you say you're not freaked out by this topic, I'll tell you this: at my most suicidal, I researched it extensively on the web
At least it kept you from doing it... You can't commit suicide if you're researching on the web, right?! Keep sitting in fromt of that screen, ok?
>and came across a site that contains photos of both successful and unsuccessful suicides. Gun through the mouth or in the side of the head is not a foolproof method--it could quite possibly just leave you with massively ugly head injuries.
Ugh! I'd rather be pretty and sad...
Reminds me of a job I had when I was 18, cleaning out a warehouse space with my uncle. Most of the debris were medical journals. I spent at least half my time looking at medical photography of diseased tissue, or surgery, or morbidity and mortality, or annals of dermatology (they only show diseased flesh, only interested in pathology, not normal determalogical stuff, is this why my dermatologist seems so bored when I go see him, he'd like something more gross to look at and treat). Ughghhh... that job made my flesh crawl.
> > > one moment i am drunkenly suicidal, the next morning i am in giggles and eating my organic vegan food lingering over hot tea and loving the sun. dr. jekyll & ms. hyde.
> >
> > yeah, it's always the big back and forth.> it's all about feeling! i became a big animal-rights activist at age 16, not to feel better physically, but eating tortured/dead animals had always disturbed me. I think now it's an interesting parallel--I turned veggie when receiving the most abuse from others (parents and guys).
Of course it's all about feeling! This I understand! No, I mean, I didn't question the vegan-vegetarian thing, just the beating up on your system later by drinking...
>now it's all somatic; not only do i still strongly believe in the animal-rights movement, but it feels so good to eat raw/organic/vegan! it just feels good. and when i don't eat that way i don't feel guilty (i'll have some cheddar or white bread etc sometimes) i just don't feel as good.
Yeah, milk products and wimpy bread are the worst for my system. The basil and tomatoes are coming in strong now, and those are great, uncooked and chopped up, with pasta and a little olive oil, some salt & pepper, and voila!
> when i don't drink i don't feel guilty or proud, i just don't feel as good.
>
> besides, eating healthy helps to temper the impending beer belly!That's the truth!
> > you mean you just stay, no matter what, and get trashed?
>
>
> No. (I mean I've done that, but that's not what i was talking about.) Jah's metaphor was the party=life; if you're not having a good time you leave. (Walk home in the case of a party; kill yourslef in the case of life.)Sorry, I just think that's a simplistic duality, even though I like JahL and all...
> > i have lots of doctors and pills, lots of my anxiety is gone, i listen to music now and have started perusing non-psychology books in the first time for more than a year.
> >
> > music is the way, man, it really soothes me, too, playing guitar as well... like I said, it seemed from your posts that you're really getting some moments of clarity and lightness... being able to laugh and enjoy life while drinking tea and eating excellent food is a good sign, no?
>
>
> i am. i used to be so against pyschiatric medication, but now i'm alll for it. i realize now that my depression led to so much delusional thinking (like, if someone were nice to me, i'd think they were making fun of me, knowing what a loser i actually am and trying to humor me or see my reaction to their kindness so they could laugh about it later)--and prozac/klonopin have seriously reduced my ruminating/paranoid thoughts and have led me to hermit to social butterfly, and now so uncomfortable with the responsibility of the transition that i find myself hermitting up again.You're great at explaining your moods, etc. I think that paranoia about others that you describe is a type of social phobia, and the klonopin is good for that. I'm glad you're feeling so much better. I have the ruminating stuff, too, the neurontin is good for that.
> i was just hesitant to discuss suicide in a practical, honest way because it is taboo, & i've no desire to freak anyone out.
I don't think there are any real taboos on P-Babble on discussing suicide, are there? People can choose not to read them...
>Another thing I admired about Jah is one post (awhile back) in which he said he was suicidal; another (new) poster accused him of "crying wolf" and not to mention it again if he didn't immediately mean it or some such,
That wasn't right of the new poster, I mean, we all can support someone who is feeling on the fence, and try to bring them to the side of the living, if we can. S/he should have just moved to another non-threatening thread.
>and his rebuke was that his chronically suicidal feelings legitimately made him a suicidal person without cries for help or what have you.
Right. He shouldn't have to be judged in that way by the other guy. If the other guy didn't want to read it, then he should have just ignored it and moved to another thread, instead of making JahL feel badly...
>all regrets if i'm somehow misinterpreting the exchange between Jah and the other poster, I just haven't got it in me to search the archives.
>
> i hope this doesn't sound too pessimistic, but plenty of people live 75 years worth of shit then die of cancer. in a nursing home eating creamed corn.Right, ugh. Or they aren't depressed and live 75 years of an ok life, and THEN they end up in a nursng home, eating chipped beef on toast (also creamed!), and then they die of cancer...
> i'd rather (if i don't rebound from all of this) take a massive morphine overdose and not deal with 50 years of frowns.
I hope you feel better with no rebounds... Is morphine readily available to you? Or do you mean some assisted suicide thing?
> i've got hope. a decent job, supportive parents, a few kind friends...admittance to excellent college, nice shoes...
Well, I'd say the shoes are the most important thing. Hee hee. No, really, that's a list not many people have, it's good you can count all the good things.
My sister and I used to judge the quality of someone's personality by their shoes. So watch out what you put on your feet, there might be two adolescent girls checking out your footwear.> it's my moods that bring me down.
Right, that's true for us all.
>the loserish feeling.
Try listening to "Losering" by Whiskeytown on the Stranger's Almanac cd. If you don't have it or don't feel like buying it or getting it on Napster (can we still do this?), I can tape it for you…
My solution to a mood is get into it, listen to the hungriest Emmylou Harris song, or a kick-ass Sheryl Crow tune, etc., and just wail! My therapist says singing is very good for me. Since I do it all the time, I now have the justification I need to *keep on* doing it...>insecurity.
Yup, got that one…
>no romantic love, the ones i love never love me back.
Ditto.
>existentialism.
Man, that stuff fucked me up for a lifetime! Can't seem to come up with an alternative philosophy, though, no matter how hard I try… I guess I think Sartre/deBeauvoir and Camus and those guys were probably the most intelligent group of beings to ever visit the earth…
>the craving for self-destructive activity--drunk driving, any drug, danger etc--
Yes, I know, I worry about that, wish you'd get some kinda handle on that…
> > I'm behind you, for whatever that's worth...
>
> It's worth a lot, and I thank you for it. I remember you posting much more often when I fist began visiting PSB back in Feb or so~where have you gone? Give us a shout out, chick, and let us know how you are.I was visiting the board a lot back then, since then I've been back on and off, lurking. When I need group therapy, I come here, this is what PSB gives me, people who know what it all feels like, people who I tell stuff to that nobody else knows, wants to know, or would be bored with, etc. In the deep of winter, I get/got/will get totally blackly depressed. The slow, painful death of a love-relationship did not help, and I'd been fired from my job about 5 months before (insubordination, such a rebel), and was still trying to deal with the aftermath of that. So I was a frickin' mess… That's why I did a lot of posting then - I was giving the shout-out.
>
> Warmly,
> sar
>
more warmth, and a hug, too,
Wendy
Posted by sar on August 7, 2001, at 2:02:05
In reply to Re: overdose » sar, posted by Wendy B. on August 1, 2001, at 12:06:26
Wendy,
ahhhh, a clean slate! (klonopin makes me a dummy. our exchanges were becoming too jumbled & long so let's start anew (if you wish!)...
right. i agree that i'm glad not to live in a society in which ritual suicide is an act to be proud of, it's that i respect Choice. Choice to vote or not (and not feel guilty either way), choice to join the military or not (not be required to), choice to be whatever you want--be it a prostitute, a Kevorkian, a drug dealer, a suicide. another analogy (i'm fond of them, plz bear with me). i have a friend who simply does not believe in parking tickets. he lives in a v. congested city w/ mostly street parking and when he can't get a parking space he parks in the no-parking zone and inevitably gets a ticket. he doesn't block other cars in, it's nothing vicious, but when the police come to arrest him (because of warrants) he fights like an animal. he'd rather chew his leg off than be arrested for parking tickets. it's the whole Antigone deal to me (have you read that play?)--from what i remember, the theme was Go with your Higher Belief; Civil Law does not mean as much. i just think (intellectually speaking) that suicide is unfairly stigmatized in the USA and many other countries.
i agree with you, i like the idea of a family bed! except that i'd want to have sex with my husband not in front of the kids and i wouldn't want to roll over on my kids and kill them or have them drool all over me. BUT, i always sleep much better with others. i miss the days of sleepovers, when my girlfriends and i would share a bed night after night as kids, and in college i would sleep in the same bed with platonic male friends (how i wish i could still do that with girlfriends! but after age 16 or so it ceases to be completely okay and comfortable, for some reason.) i wish america were less individiualistic. when i have my own place i want all the neighbors to feel welcome etc, i'll feed all the neighborhood kids (supposing i make enough to feed myself!).
hah hah, hem's penus...i wish there were a way to prove that theory, i wonder if there's any literature discussing male novelists' penus sizes and how much they feel like they fuckin have to prove, standing at a typewriter at 6 am and going on safari to shoot wildlife. what do you think women compensate for? i can't think of a classic stereotype, like small penus=monster truck,etc--any theories?
i think it's good to research suicide before you do it. it;s a v. important life decision. :) pill overdoses can result in brain damages, gunshots in severe bodily damage, etc...i will keep sitting in front of the computer. prozac and klonopin have done small wonders for me. i'm no longer a fairly funtioning catatonic, but a human being with the capacity to bring good...there's this buddhist theory that says there's nothing wrong with "emptiness," that emptiness is quite good, and i feel as if i'm emptying myslef into my job and my friends in worse states than i am (extremely alcoholic, schizo etc).
yeah, mcluhan was kind of a tool, but i liked it applied to suicide: i want to sleep forver. i want to blow my fucking head off. i want to drown beneath everything in deep blue cool. i want to suffocate by hanging. is it pain, words, thought--is it in your head, your heart, your entire body?
i think mila's message awhile back had to do with (and plz mila, correct me if i'm wrong) was interpreting her desire to slit her wrists as an unconscius desire to become a "handless maiden"--meaning, she'd simply taken on too much responsibility and really needed to become that "handless maiden" and have others watch out for her for awhile. just a symbolic way to look at suicide. it doesn't always apply.
that sounds like a pretty interesting job you had at 18...how old are you know? if you'd like to see some beautifual life-affirming photoes check out a book called *the body.* 100 years of vulnerable, sexy, strong, weak people--great book.
"beating up on my sytem later by drinking"--what i meant was just how it feels somatically. eating fresh spinach and carrots makes you feel GREAT! drinking a bottle of wine makes you feel GREAT! it's never been a health issure, but what-feels-good-issue. Eating like a rabbit and drinking like a fish both feel pretty good most of the time.
i didn't thin anything on PB was tabboo either, i just wanted to make sure...
music really helps. i've thought many times that if i could only sing like janis or joan or sade or the girl from portishead that i'd be artistically exorcsing all of this from my system...i sing a ot drun & by mysekf (i;n not a giid singer)--i'd love to learn guitar piano sax everything...i' a great *listener* of music, ijust don't feel qaulified to makr it.
add some artichoke hearts. i guarantee...
well, kervorkian would never pay me a visit, and i'm don;t think i'd want him too! i'm sure that with enough time and money i could get my hands on morphine...but there's no impetus yet. i'm not ready.
the seriousness of all of this struck me hard saturday night. i was in a car accident and charged with DWI. my car is totalled, insurance goe, tiem is running out, don' ever go to jail yall it's HORRIBLE.
but maybe this one was the wake-up call, o don't cotton to subties. no insurance now they say, car;s toatlled.
no one was injured. yass yaass i survived it the luck way, im am LUcky, you'll say. 3-car accident, no one injured. mine was the only car totalled. 15 horrible hours in jail.
i think the only thing to counter existentialism is "spirtuality" (a word i fpormer;y haed until i recemtly grasped understadin gof it) (i thought it wa sosmnthing oprah winfery and hollywood celebs had made up)--a good freind of mine has tried for many years to "act like Jesus," not in the corny WWJD wa, but simply being accepting and suppotive--cuz who went to Jesus? the lepers, prostitutes, ect...
emmylouis i love, but i'm familiar with her only from Wille Nelson" "teatro." my best crooning music is janis joplin or joan baez.what do you play on your gee-tar?thanks for the continuing support, wendy. feels like the ambien & vodka are kicking in (last of my supplies!) so i'post now--hope this all made senes
i'm wavering
hugs,
sar
Posted by Wendy B. on August 7, 2001, at 11:07:15
In reply to Re: overdose, posted by sar on August 7, 2001, at 2:02:05
> Wendy,
>
> ahhhh, a clean slate! (klonopin makes me a dummy. our exchanges were becoming too jumbled & long so let's start anew (if you wish!)...
>
> right. i agree that i'm glad not to live in a society in which ritual suicide is an act to be proud of, it's that i respect Choice. Choice to vote or not (and not feel guilty either way), choice to join the military or not (not be required to), choice to be whatever you want--be it a prostitute, a Kevorkian, a drug dealer, a suicide. another analogy (i'm fond of them, plz bear with me). i have a friend who simply does not believe in parking tickets. he lives in a v. congested city w/ mostly street parking and when he can't get a parking space he parks in the no-parking zone and inevitably gets a ticket. he doesn't block other cars in, it's nothing vicious, but when the police come to arrest him (because of warrants) he fights like an animal. he'd rather chew his leg off than be arrested for parking tickets. it's the whole Antigone deal to me (have you read that play?)--from what i remember, the theme was Go with your Higher Belief; Civil Law does not mean as much. i just think (intellectually speaking) that suicide is unfairly stigmatized in the USA and many other countries.
>
> i agree with you, i like the idea of a family bed! except that i'd want to have sex with my husband not in front of the kids and i wouldn't want to roll over on my kids and kill them or have them drool all over me. BUT, i always sleep much better with others. i miss the days of sleepovers, when my girlfriends and i would share a bed night after night as kids, and in college i would sleep in the same bed with platonic male friends (how i wish i could still do that with girlfriends! but after age 16 or so it ceases to be completely okay and comfortable, for some reason.) i wish america were less individiualistic. when i have my own place i want all the neighbors to feel welcome etc, i'll feed all the neighborhood kids (supposing i make enough to feed myself!).
>
> hah hah, hem's penus...i wish there were a way to prove that theory, i wonder if there's any literature discussing male novelists' penus sizes and how much they feel like they fuckin have to prove, standing at a typewriter at 6 am and going on safari to shoot wildlife. what do you think women compensate for? i can't think of a classic stereotype, like small penus=monster truck,etc--any theories?
>
> i think it's good to research suicide before you do it. it;s a v. important life decision. :) pill overdoses can result in brain damages, gunshots in severe bodily damage, etc...i will keep sitting in front of the computer. prozac and klonopin have done small wonders for me. i'm no longer a fairly funtioning catatonic, but a human being with the capacity to bring good...there's this buddhist theory that says there's nothing wrong with "emptiness," that emptiness is quite good, and i feel as if i'm emptying myslef into my job and my friends in worse states than i am (extremely alcoholic, schizo etc).
>
> yeah, mcluhan was kind of a tool, but i liked it applied to suicide: i want to sleep forver. i want to blow my fucking head off. i want to drown beneath everything in deep blue cool. i want to suffocate by hanging. is it pain, words, thought--is it in your head, your heart, your entire body?
>
> i think mila's message awhile back had to do with (and plz mila, correct me if i'm wrong) was interpreting her desire to slit her wrists as an unconscius desire to become a "handless maiden"--meaning, she'd simply taken on too much responsibility and really needed to become that "handless maiden" and have others watch out for her for awhile. just a symbolic way to look at suicide. it doesn't always apply.
>
> that sounds like a pretty interesting job you had at 18...how old are you know? if you'd like to see some beautifual life-affirming photoes check out a book called *the body.* 100 years of vulnerable, sexy, strong, weak people--great book.
>
> "beating up on my sytem later by drinking"--what i meant was just how it feels somatically. eating fresh spinach and carrots makes you feel GREAT! drinking a bottle of wine makes you feel GREAT! it's never been a health issure, but what-feels-good-issue. Eating like a rabbit and drinking like a fish both feel pretty good most of the time.
>
> i didn't thin anything on PB was tabboo either, i just wanted to make sure...
>
> music really helps. i've thought many times that if i could only sing like janis or joan or sade or the girl from portishead that i'd be artistically exorcsing all of this from my system...i sing a ot drun & by mysekf (i;n not a giid singer)--i'd love to learn guitar piano sax everything...i' a great *listener* of music, ijust don't feel qaulified to makr it.
>
> add some artichoke hearts. i guarantee...
>
> well, kervorkian would never pay me a visit, and i'm don;t think i'd want him too! i'm sure that with enough time and money i could get my hands on morphine...but there's no impetus yet. i'm not ready.
>
> the seriousness of all of this struck me hard saturday night. i was in a car accident and charged with DWI. my car is totalled, insurance goe, tiem is running out, don' ever go to jail yall it's HORRIBLE.
>
> but maybe this one was the wake-up call, o don't cotton to subties. no insurance now they say, car;s toatlled.
>
> no one was injured. yass yaass i survived it the luck way, im am LUcky, you'll say. 3-car accident, no one injured. mine was the only car totalled. 15 horrible hours in jail.
>
> i think the only thing to counter existentialism is "spirtuality" (a word i fpormer;y haed until i recemtly grasped understadin gof it) (i thought it wa sosmnthing oprah winfery and hollywood celebs had made up)--a good freind of mine has tried for many years to "act like Jesus," not in the corny WWJD wa, but simply being accepting and suppotive--cuz who went to Jesus? the lepers, prostitutes, ect...
>
>
> emmylouis i love, but i'm familiar with her only from Wille Nelson" "teatro." my best crooning music is janis joplin or joan baez.what do you play on your gee-tar?
>
> thanks for the continuing support, wendy. feels like the ambien & vodka are kicking in (last of my supplies!) so i'post now--hope this all made senes
>
> i'm wavering
>
> hugs,
> sarHi Sar,
Yeah I could tell by your uncharacteristic spelling mistakes.
I feel horrible about the car wreck. You are lucky to be alive, I am sure. When did I post that thing about sitting in the police station waiting for the 'rents to come pick you up? Aug. 1 is the date of the post... Aug. 4 was the date of the accident...
What did i/we do here???? I have a friend who believes in "manifesting" by wishing, behaving, etc. toward a desired goal, and then things "start to happen" in the real world of your everyday life... It's a sublimely narcissistic way of looking at the world. Like: I told you you were going to go to the police station if you didn't cut it out, then then voila! it happens. Scary shit, man. Like the movie 'Carrie.'
So maybe it's good karma or bad karma then? (Good because you got the proverbial wakeup call, bad cuz you got a criminal record, have to do without a car, I bet they took your license, etc.)
I am so sorry. Are they forcing you to do a detox program or AA, and/or driver education-retraining? My (most recent) ex had to go to both when he got a DWI.Re: all the other MORE FUN stuff we were talking about - I'll write again later. Let me know what's happening.. How are you getting to work? etc.
Hasta la vista, baby,
Wendy
Posted by sar on August 7, 2001, at 21:44:47
In reply to Re: accident » sar, posted by Wendy B. on August 7, 2001, at 11:07:15
hey bay,
thanks for the support. they haven't forced me into anything, but my court date is a month from now. it's just horrible, icalled the other 2 ppl involved in the accident and conversed/apologized to both of them
it was a good wake-up call. i miss my car, driving to music was my hobby, but drunk?....shiiiit...it was bound to run out some time, and as they say, thank god i wasn't killed. i'm just glad i didn't hurt or kill the other 2. that's nothing i could live with. & luckily the other 2, their cars were only scraped and they wren;t hurt at all, *and* they were both v. kind.
i, however, feel like scum. no one plans on being a drunk driver...shit...it's completely against the fabric of my being, but a regular habit of mine ('til recently, bien sur).
yeah the 'rents did bail-bond me out, and they're in their 60's and voted for george d.b., yo! they'v been surprisingly good to me. maybe they feel guilty, i don't know.
i do belive in "self-fulfilling prophecy"--in my case, when i try to prevent myself of something, i overdo it double. i was supposed to go on depakote this week bit (AHEM!) had to cancel my gyn appt appt because my period started...so, impulsivity for at least one more week!
they didn't take my license but i predict i'll receuve at least 250 hrs community service.thanks,Wendy, for your continuing support & jivingness--
love
sar
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