![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by adams on March 30, 2001, at 13:15:31
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by Eric on March 30, 2001, at 12:07:40
I never got anything from talk-therapy, I think some people clearly have some chemical problem in there brain or body that is affecting the brain. I think its possible sometimes to adjust your entire perspective on life to deal with depression, if the person has been depressed for a very long time they might get used to it, eventually you forget what real life is like, and someone might think they are ok then because they found jesus or whatever, but you still never really cure the chemical problem, if I am really going to get better I think it will be because of drugs. Well thats the way I see things, if anyone cares.
Posted by Eric on March 30, 2001, at 13:25:22
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by adams on March 30, 2001, at 13:15:31
> I never got anything from talk-therapy, I think some people clearly have some chemical problem in there brain or body that is affecting the brain. I think its possible sometimes to adjust your entire perspective on life to deal with depression, if the person has been depressed for a very long time they might get used to it, eventually you forget what real life is like, and someone might think they are ok then because they found jesus or whatever, but you still never really cure the chemical problem, if I am really going to get better I think it will be because of drugs. Well thats the way I see things, if anyone cares.
I agree with you.Eric
Posted by SLS on March 30, 2001, at 13:53:34
In reply to Re: New theories of mental disorders needed (longer), posted by Eric on March 29, 2001, at 11:27:47
Dear Eric,
I guess I am left with but a question and a few comments.
> >I share your frustration and anger that medical science has not been able to adequately treat me.
>
> No, you dont sound well to me to be honest.Thanks. I wasn't sure there for a moment.
I could really use some feedback here. Please. What exactly is it about me that doesn't sound so well to be honest? Please don't be bashful about being perfectly so.
I guess what I need to know is if the ways in which I don't sound well to you have impacted so heavily on my judgment and perspective along this thread as to make questionable my contributions to it.
Perhaps I am too defensive...
> > I find the word "joke" to be personally insulting.
> Why would the term "joke" be personally insulting to you Scott? I wasnt directing the word towards you.
It doesn't really matter who you directed it toward. It targeted a whole lot of people, including me. Your statement necessarily makes me a part of the joke. At the moment, I find it difficult to express how empty I find your statement. I hope I didn't spend a few hours a day in the Rutgers medical school library for five years, sharing the results of my literature reviews with investigative physicians, just to aid in the synthesis of a joke. You are telling me that I vehemently believe in a joke.
In my opinion, anyone who comes to the conclusion that the research being conducted in biological psychiatry is a joke doesn't have a clue. Not a clue. This was not directed toward you personally.
I think there is often a lack of appreciation for which organ is being researched so intensely. It is the most complex object in the world. The brain is being studied feverishly. Tons of data are being produced from every yet conceived direction. Neuroscience. Tons. What is painfully slow for everyone is the process of putting this data together to produce what we call understanding. Neuroscience is fully cognizant of how much greater its resolution needs to be. The technology necessary to resolve the detail of intracellular structures and mechanisms is one of the most limiting factors. Even the measurement of macroscopic phenomena is extraordinarily difficult to accomplish, with different experiments conducted on the same function yielding conflicting results.
I guess the brain is the most notoriously difficult organ in the human body to understand.
Let's give neuroscience the credit it deserves. Let's give it the appreciation for the difficult task it has set out to accomplish. If anyone would like to determine for themselves whether or not research in the areas of neuroscience and psychiatry is a joke, I recommend going to a medical school library and pulling out some of the journals from the shelves. If you don't have access to such a library, the federal government has established an online compendium of citations and abstracts of all of the articles to be found in those medical journals dating back to 1966. Read them. I doubt too many people will come back thinking that our research has been a joke. This database is administered by the National Library of Medicine, and is known as Medline. It is free to the public. Enjoy.
I hope my previous post did not give people the impression that most of the cases of mental illness appearing on this board are anything other than psychobiological, for which somatic treatment is necessary and sufficient. I also hope that people retain the impression that not all mental illnesses are of biological origin, nor even perpetuated by systemic dysregulation. I hope the impression resides in each of us that for many people, the biological and the psychological are inextricably linked dynamically, and that the best chance for someone with a biological depression to remain biologically well is to address adequately the psychological that is not. Continued psychosocial stress, whether coming from an internal milieu of depressive or other maladaptive psychology, or an external milieu of depressive or other dysfunctional influences, must be addressed to reduce the risk of medication breakthrough and relapse.
Why the term mental illness?
Because these illnesses manifest as changes in mental state or function, and are idiopathic rather than secondary to another condition.
Oh no, I've said too much. I haven't said enough.
One of the most striking biological markers of depression is an increase in REM.
Dumb, I know.
- Scott
Posted by coral on March 30, 2001, at 15:05:31
In reply to Re: New theories of mental disorders needed (longer), posted by SLS on March 30, 2001, at 13:53:34
Maybe my case is very different because one of the major markers for the severe clinical depression I experienced was the lack of dreaming or REM sleep.
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 15:40:46
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by Eric on March 30, 2001, at 12:02:10
Over 15yrs of suffering for me from OCD, panic attacks, anxiety, etc. I mean, if meds don't work, I'd um, give up on myself if u know what I mean. I almost pray that meds can work, even if I go bald or whatever else that could go wrong, I really want to be happy and not feel or act like an idiot. Oh yeah, I am tired of not being able to stick up for myself because of being intimidated and, I am at the point where, when I have a bad day, I can start to cry. Sad isn't it.
Posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 17:14:49
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by adams on March 30, 2001, at 13:15:31
> I never got anything from talk-therapy, I think some people clearly have some chemical problem in there brain or body that is affecting the brain. I think its possible sometimes to adjust your entire perspective on life to deal with depression, if the person has been depressed for a very long time they might get used to it, eventually you forget what real life is like, and someone might think they are ok then because they found jesus or whatever, but you still never really cure the chemical problem,.
YES, YES, YES!!!
Psychotherapy persuades people to accept an inferior state of living; to accept that you are doomed to a joyless life of melancholia & missed experiences.
I, like any sane individual am intent on doing whatever it takes to get some semblance of a life going; this involves swallowing meds.
Thanks adams.
J.
Posted by judy1 on March 30, 2001, at 17:23:50
In reply to Re: New theories of mental disorders needed (longer), posted by SLS on March 30, 2001, at 13:53:34
>I also hope that people retain the impression that not all mental illnesses are of biological origin, nor even perpetuated by systemic dysregulation. I hope the impression resides in each of us that for many people, the biological and the psychological are inextricably linked dynamically, and that the best chance for someone with a biological depression to remain biologically well is to address adequately the psychological that is not. Continued psychosocial stress, whether coming from an internal milieu of depressive or other maladaptive psychology, or an external milieu of depressive or other dysfunctional influences, must be addressed to reduce the risk of medication breakthrough and relapse.
I wish I could have expressed myself nearly as well as you by writing this statement, you know my history Scott- and I fervently agree with this statement. I, too, was hurt by the insinuation of Eric that the years I have spent in research along with many of my peers was a joke? Maybe I got lost somewhere along this thread, I know my cognitive abilities are down, but at no point did I get that impression from your posts. Just my thoughts for what it's worth. Take care- judy
Posted by Eric on March 30, 2001, at 17:41:10
In reply to Re: New theories of mental disorders needed (longer) » SLS, posted by judy1 on March 30, 2001, at 17:23:50
> > I, too, was hurt by the insinuation of Eric that the years I have spent in research along with many of my peers was a joke? Maybe I got lost somewhere along this thread, I know my cognitive abilities are down, but at no point did I get that impression from your posts. Just my thoughts for what it's worth. Take care- judy
Judy...I was not insinuating that anybody on this board was a joke. Im just trying to educate people is all. I can be sarcastic in the way I write but its only the way I talk. Im not specifically coming down on anyone on here. I dont understand why you thought I was specifically talking about you? I too have been in a research program for TRD and I learned a lot. But I did learn that much is to be desired when it comes to real research into TRD and mental illness in general. Thats why I called it a joke.
I called it a joke because number one I dont feel there is enough of biological psychiatry research and number two I dont feel it is speedy enough. People are dying because of these problems, many are also disabled due to TRD. Its a drain on the national economy and on Social Security Disability. SS disability doesnt have enough money to pay out disability to all the TRD patients. Do you know how hard it is to get SS Disability for TRD?
I called it a joke also because I honestly believe there is not priority in this country towards the severely mentally ill. I truly feel this way. No priority=lipservice. Lipservice=JOKE.
Just look at the health insurance laws concerning mental health. Insurance has totally different rules and regulations concerning the mentally ill vs. "physical" illnesses which are "real." I gotta tell ya, severe mental illness IS a physical illness and its as real as it can be. WHY do they have separate rules in the insurance industry for mental illness? Its the old lipservice thing...mental illness doesnt have priority...we are blown off a lot of times.
These are all reasons why I call much of what exists in psychiatry and the mental health profession a "joke." Cause it is.
Eric
Posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 17:51:13
In reply to Meds are only a TOOL » JahL, posted by Todd on March 30, 2001, at 0:22:30
> > > >The same point I was making on another thread. >Psychotherapists like to persuade patients that >meds are just a 'band-aid' when in fact it's >psychotherapy that's the stop gap measure, >inadequately filling in (& confusing the >picture) for meds that are yet to be developed.
> > Psychotherapy a stop-gap measure? Inadequately filling in for meds that are yet to be developed?
Absolutely. In serious psychobiological illnesses, such as my own, therapy is an irrelevance, no a *hindrance*.
> > In my honest opinion, and very respectfully submitted, Jah, you've obviously been seeing the wrong psychotherapists.
All psychotherapists are intrinsically 'wrong' since their thinking is fundamentally flawed. Psychiatry is gradually waking up to this (I hope).
> >I very firmly believe that meds are only a tool to be used in the healing process. If you feel that one day a pharmaceutical is going to heal you, I think that you're denying yourself your own personal power to be firmly engaged in your own healing process.
I no more have the power to 'heal' serious biochemical disturbances in my brain than you have to say, self-heal a faulty heart valve.
> >Life is fraught with pain.
Yes but only masochists willingly submit to it.
> >No pill is ever going to take that away.
I think maybe you are confused. I have no pain, no emotional suffering (other than a life lost to mental illness). I have no hang-ups, no personal tragedies. I suffer from a hereditary disorder which makes pleasure, sleep, cognition etc all but impossible.
> >Learning to live with it lovingly without being afraid is my holy grail.
IMO therapy is useful for situational depression, breakdowns, bereavement & child abuse survivors (+...?). The difference btwn these people & people like myself & Eric (et al) is that *they* have *issues* which could reasonably be expected to impacty upon their mental hlth. I don't.
> > You call yourself Jah.
No my friends call me Jah.
> > I am friends with quite a few Jamaicans, and they have a saying I love to use. Jah provide, mon! Jah lives in you and surrounds you. I and I will see you through. You know what I'm talking about.
I don't think I do. My head is twisted enough & doesn't need anything remotely religious/spiritual messing things up more:)
> > Peace and love.
I agree with that bit!
J.
Posted by Noa on March 30, 2001, at 17:55:45
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL » adams, posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 17:14:49
> Psychotherapy persuades people to accept an inferior state of living; to accept that you are doomed to a joyless life of melancholia & missed experiences.
I wholeheartedly disagree (respectfully, of course) with this statement.
I think psychotherapy liberates people from this sense of doom, helps them see options and possibilities.
If you had an experience of psychotherapy that attempted to persuade you to accept an inferior state of living, it was not a good psychotherapy experience, and hopefully not typical.
I think dividing the brain and body isn't as clear cut as saying that it is chemical for some and psychological for others. It is a complex interaction for all of us. We can choose to intervene at one or more points of this complex system, and there is no one way to intervene.
Posted by judy1 on March 30, 2001, at 18:10:08
In reply to Re: New theories of mental disorders needed (longer), posted by Eric on March 30, 2001, at 17:41:10
Dear Eric,
Okay, my sarcasm detector meter is out. And also I tend to be defensive about Scott because he has provided me with so much support and he sounded upset which makes me upset. That being said, I am fortunate enough to live in a state that provides parity with physical and mental illness (California). I am on SSD, it took 4 months because I had a psychiatrist who recognized the severity of my illness and I retained a lawyer because I was unable to fill out a form. I realize that my story is very much in the minority. I think you made a comparison earlier to AIDS research and the ability for those with AIDS to raise money. Well, we (those of us with severe mental illness) not only suffer from stigma, we don't have the ability to call our representatives, or organize a march or anything else. Often I wonder how much of that is the actual disorder or the debilitating effects of psychotropic drugs. Try a depot injection of haldol sometime and see if you can make it into the shower, never mind organize your thinking to hold rallies or fundraisers. I refer to myself as a psychiatric survivor, I will spare you the details. But I have been fortunate enough to have worked with people who have dedicated their lives to finding answers in research, and incredible psychiatrists and psychologists who have prevented me from taking my life on more than one occasion. I wish there were answers for all of us, but I find it more helpful personally to look for hope, rather than tear everything down which seems to have happened here. I truly hope some of this makes sense. Take care, judy
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 18:21:50
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL » adams, posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 17:14:49
I think I can relate! I (or we) get so used to living w/depression, we don't really know what 'normal' or life is like. Very sad to look back at 'missed' opportunities or regret just about everything I (or we) do. I think I can also agree on the psychotherapy talk, it makes us either accept a lower state of life or it tries to make us think differently and assume that we can overcome obstacles. The chemicals in the brain can be replenished possibly through extremely happy changes in life.
Posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by Noa on March 30, 2001, at 17:55:45
> > > > Psychotherapy persuades people to accept an inferior state of living; to accept that you are doomed to a joyless life of melancholia & missed experiences.
> >I wholeheartedly disagree (respectfully, of course) with this statement.
> > I think psychotherapy liberates people from this sense of doom, helps them see options and possibilities.Yes & no. What I mean by the above is that psychotherapists frequently give the lie that meds are just a 'band-aid'. They are no more a band-aid 4 me than insulin is 4 a diabetic. Psychotherapists are in an influential position & by denigrating the benefits of meds (& thus restricting the options you speak of), they potentially deny someone the chance of an infinitely better quality of life.
> > If you had an experience of psychotherapy that attempted to persuade you to accept an inferior state of living, it was not a good psychotherapy experience, and hopefully not typical.
*Extensive* & varied experience. All the same.
> >I think dividing the brain and body isn't as clear cut as saying that it is chemical for some and psychological for others. It is a complex interaction for all of us. We can choose to intervene at one or more points of this complex system, and there is no one way to intervene.
Maybe, but my point is that psychotherapy is fine (& probably beneficial) in addtn to meds, but it *should not* (as it so often is) be portayed as a SUBSTITUTE for somatic treatment. With the exceptions I mention in the post above, it most certainly isn't.
Sincerely,
J.
Posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 20:08:05
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL YES JahL!!!, posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 18:21:50
> > I think I can relate! I (or we) get so used to living w/depression, we don't really know what 'normal' or life is like.
Hi Dubya (go *girl*!).
Had I listened to psychotherapists ("maybe it's just the real you" or "learn to love yourself as you are" etc), & not persisted with meds I would not be aware of what it is to be euthymic; what it is to be *human*. Psychotherapy contrived to deny me this knowledge. With nothing to compare, I could be persuaded that my level of functioning is somehow normal; acceptable (as if).
> > Very sad to look back at 'missed' opportunities or regret just about everything I (or we) do. I think I can also agree on the psychotherapy talk, it makes us either accept a lower state of life or it tries to make us think differently and assume that we can overcome obstacles. The chemicals in the brain can be replenished possibly through extremely happy changes in life.
Yeah. All the 'happy', 'rewarding' experiences in the world don't mean sh*t if you suffer from anhedonia & therefore are *physically unable* to experience pleasure.
Has your doc raised your puny dose of Clomip. yet?:)
Jah.
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 20:37:09
In reply to Re: Meds are a TOOL which get the job done. » Dubya, posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 20:08:05
Hehe, I am a guy, so "you go girl" unfortunately doesn't apply to me. Mila also thought I was a girl. hmm, gees, no wonder I an depressed, anxious, have OCD, hehe everyone seems to think I am a woman (just kidding).
I don't know what to tell the doc, I mean, he raised from 10 to 20mg now to 30mg when I complained about my anxieties. HE says that 30mg should help, if not, I should seem him in 2wks to try Paxil.
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 22:28:47
In reply to Re: Meds are a TOOL which get the job done. » Dubya, posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 20:08:05
I may sound happy now but, I am really messed, I really want to 'hurt' my wrist just a bit to satisfy myself. This only has been happening since on meds, I take my problems out on my wrists w/a wallpaper knife blade. I also see a need for attention argh. I have often thought I had ADD/ADHD b/c, I have impulses that are unique, as well as hyperactivity, even at 8am after eating only a bagel and having OJ. Coffee seems to calm me down. I mean one day, I had 5 caffeine items (2 coffees 9am, a Pepsi 3pm, an espresso at 11:30pm, a double espresso at 12:30am , by 1:15am, I'm sound asleep. I really need to someone to take my advice and trust me for reassurance.
Posted by pandora on March 30, 2001, at 22:35:58
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by Noa on March 30, 2001, at 17:55:45
I have to join Noa in disagreeing that therapy is useless and especially to the statement that "All psychotherapists are intrinsically 'wrong' since their thinking is fundamentally flawed". As a trained psychotherapist, as well as a person who suffers from depression, I wholeheartedly believe that meds are a lifelong need for some and that a lot, if not the majority, of depression/anxiety/OCD sufferers have chemical imbalances that cannot be fully corrected with therapy.
However, depending on the individual, there is great benefit to psychotherapy! As one who takes an eclectic approach, I generally don't rely on stereotypical "Freudian" psychoanalytical therapy, which is the face of therapy that many people think of when hearing the word "psychotherapy". Depression, anxiety, OCD, and even psychotic disorders to some extent can be alleviated with appropriate therapy. In many cases, therapy can augment meds, not the other way around. Take the person who has suffered for years with anxiety or depression. He may find the "miracle med" that takes all his symptoms away and corrects whatever chemical imbalance started the illness, but there are years of learned behavior (defense mechanisms, avoidance, poor social skills, etc.) that, if not dealt with, can lead to other problems.
The bottom line is, don't discount therapy, especially if your social support system is limited. Even if you simply need someone unbiased to talk things out with as you find your way to the right med combination, it can be a valuable tool for recovery.
Erin
Posted by Todd on March 31, 2001, at 2:26:49
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by Eric on March 30, 2001, at 12:02:10
Hi, Eric. I have to admire the fire in you, but you are sounding really arrogant. No problem, I get arrogant too. And if I come off as arrogant now, it is not intended. Well, maybe just a little. But I sincerely post this with a will to bring us all together here. I want to point out something important that you may not have noticed in my last post. I re-read it to be sure. In not one place did I ever hint that meds are useless. Never did I hint that psychotherapy is the only solution. I also did not suggest that those of us who post on this board suffer from a mere case of "the blues." You came to those conclusions about me on your own, because of your own biases. Allow me to elaborate:
> You dont know what you are talking about. We >are specifically discussing severe forms of >mental illness...major depression, bipolar manic >depression, paranoid schizophrenia, severe OCD, >etc. We are not talking about situational >depression here or even dysthymia. Im not >talking about the kind of "pain" life is >normally fraught with if you are healthy and >free of mental illness.
I know exactly what I'm talking about. I wouldn't be talking if I didn't have something important to say. I acknowledge that you have something important to say, and I'm challenging it.
> Obviously you have never been severely mentally >ill before or you are in denial of your >problems. For severe forms of mental illness >meds are not a "crutch" they are the foundation >of recovery.Obviously? What's so obvious? That I sometimes speak with seemingly empty platitudes that smack of Pollyanna-ishness? I acknowledge that, and can understand why you may have reacted in such a way. But the key word here is "react." Without considering for a moment who you might be speaking to. Do you think that people without the burden of serious mental illness would be regularly posting to this board? I am BIPOLAR, Eric. Certifiably mentally ill. Had a full-blown mania that simmered and boiled over unchecked for weeks. Ran up my credit cards, felt like Superman blended with Casanova, got a restraining order placed on me, slept two hours a night if I was lucky, experienced all sorts of spiritual insights and made a gazillion connections seemingly at the speed of light until I truly felt I was Jesus, lost twenty pounds (and I was already pretty lean at the time) and fed off my own energy until I thought I could control my own heartbeat with the power of my mind. I was reduced to a babbling idiot trying to speak all of my thoughts to the world as fast as I could think them. Which, as anyone who has been manic before knows, is truly impossible. Thoughts get cut off mid-sentence while your mind spins off on another tangent. That's SERIOUS shit, Eric. Thank God my friends and family cared enough to send police to my apartment to drag me to a waiting ambulance, or I could have fried my brain for good. I spent five weeks in the hospital and have been on Lithobid ever since. Lithium is a GODSEND to me. I have never experienced soul-crushing depressions for any great length of time, for which I am eternally grateful, but I have had my legs in those waters long enough to know that I don't wish that kind of hell on anyone. Most of my life has been lived with an underlying dysthymia that from time to time starts to pull me under. Somehow I usually manage to keep my head above water, though, and that's why I post here.
> Got a severe form of mental illness? Without >meds you are screwed and up the river...most >likely you will end up disabled.
You're absolutely right here, Eric. I just took 600mg of Lithobid about a half hour ago, and will continue to take it until someday in the future when I am either crazy enough or informed enough to stop. That day may never come. I enjoy my sanity far too much to take foolish risks with my health.
That said, I still FIRMLY believe that meds are not THE answer to a life of richness, beauty, and fulfillment. Meds are only a tool, as are psychotherapists. Even your own mental illness can be a tool. All tools towards understanding yourself and creating what YOU want in life. Sounds like the psychotherapists you have dealt with are less than favorable. There are a lot of idiots out there who think they can read a few books, get a few degrees, and heal the world. They don't have the experience of swimming laps in their own pool of darkness, and are really useless. I really encourage you to take the time and find a GOOD psychotherapist, one who has been there and continues to go there. One who can teach you about the subconscious fears that eat you and whittle you down and be there with you as you confront them. And yes, one that can teach you how to love yourself. Not a gooey, bubblegum, pansyass love. The kind of loving yourself that allows you to be who you are without judging yourself, the kind of loving yourself that gives you permission to tackle your deepest fears so that you can go after what you really want in life.
My road to self-understanding winds out in front of me everyday. I have a lot of ideas about how we can heal ourselves, and they are grounded in my own experience. I've spent my whole life trying to understand myself and my processes, and thus far, with the help of a gifted psychotherapist, I've discovered some deep truths that I am inclined to believe are universal. And although my issues are not necessarily yours or anyone else's, I believe our processes are similar. We all need to whittle away at our fears and re-acquaint ourselves with who we really are.
Are we back on track here?
Peace and love.
Todd
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 31, 2001, at 2:47:17
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL, posted by Eric on March 30, 2001, at 12:02:10
> You dont know what you are talking about.
> Obviously you have never been severely mentally ill before or you are in denial of your problems.
I've warned you before, so now I'm going to have to block you from posting. Follow-ups, if any, regarding this should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 31, 2001, at 3:07:31
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL » Todd, posted by JahL on March 30, 2001, at 17:51:13
> All psychotherapists are intrinsically 'wrong' since their thinking is fundamentally flawed.
Please avoid overgeneralizing. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups? You know where they go. :-)
Posted by JahL on March 31, 2001, at 9:37:08
In reply to Re: Meds AND therapy valuable tools!, posted by pandora on March 30, 2001, at 22:35:58
> > I have to join Noa in disagreeing that therapy is useless and especially to the statement that "All psychotherapists are intrinsically 'wrong' since their thinking is fundamentally flawed".
OK. I'm projecting a v. polarized view. My anger at the way psychotherapy frequently intrudes upon the serious business of treating biological mental illness is breaking through & making my statements a little rash. I feel obliged to make something of a stand.
I did not mean to imply that psychothereapy is inherently 'wrong'; it has its uses. However the popular claim of psychotherapy to be able to somehow 'cure' mental illness *is* fundamentally wrong. Sure therapy might be useful in helping the patients deal with problems arising from the depression itself, or with resolving conflicts which may have precipitated the depression (thus preventing reoccurrence). But psychotherapy *does not* address the core physical disturbances which give rise to the depressional symptoms. IMO psychotherapy is no answer, just an aid, a bolster for the meds (which is no bad thing).
Of course people say they find psychotherapy useful; who wouldn't jump at the chance at unconditionally dumping all their problems on a complete stranger? But is this medical treatment or professional comforting? And is lengthy, costly & questionably effective psychotherapy the most cost & *time*-effective method of treating mental illness?
In conclusion, I think p.therapy does have it's indications, particularly where there are *issues* involved. However it needs to drastically reappraise its scope of usefulness.
In my experience psychotherapists are all too ready to offer false hope, even where the individual concerned is clearly well-adjusted & has no enviromental origin to their depression. I have highly-regarded psychotherapists *guarantee* to 'fix' me in 3-6months! The arrogance of it! The guy who gave me this specific promise, who was also a pdoc, told me he'd 'never' had a case he hadn't been able to turn round. When after a year of abject failure, I asked him if he still made these claims to new patients, he declined to answer!The other thing that concerns me about psychotherapists is the potential lack of subjectivity when it comes to prescribing their treatment; an extended course of p.therapy is a very lucrative proposition. The guy above squeezed (unethically IMO) just under $10000 out of me, 10K I most certainly do not have (& he knew this).
J.
---------------------------------------------------------------
As a trained psychotherapist, as well as a person who suffers from depression, I wholeheartedly believe that meds are a lifelong need for some and that a lot, if not the majority, of depression/anxiety/OCD sufferers have chemical imbalances that cannot be fully corrected with therapy.
>
> However, depending on the individual, there is great benefit to psychotherapy! As one who takes an eclectic approach, I generally don't rely on stereotypical "Freudian" psychoanalytical therapy, which is the face of therapy that many people think of when hearing the word "psychotherapy". Depression, anxiety, OCD, and even psychotic disorders to some extent can be alleviated with appropriate therapy. In many cases, therapy can augment meds, not the other way around. Take the person who has suffered for years with anxiety or depression. He may find the "miracle med" that takes all his symptoms away and corrects whatever chemical imbalance started the illness, but there are years of learned behavior (defense mechanisms, avoidance, poor social skills, etc.) that, if not dealt with, can lead to other problems.
>
> The bottom line is, don't discount therapy, especially if your social support system is limited. Even if you simply need someone unbiased to talk things out with as you find your way to the right med combination, it can be a valuable tool for recovery.
>
> Erin
Posted by JahL on March 31, 2001, at 9:48:32
In reply to Re: Psychotherapy is 'wrong'?, posted by JahL on March 31, 2001, at 9:37:08
> > The other thing that concerns me about psychotherapists is the potential lack of [subjectivity] when it comes to prescribing their treatment......I of course meant to say *objectivity*
Posted by JahL on March 31, 2001, at 10:21:31
In reply to Re: Meds are only a TOOL » Eric, posted by Todd on March 31, 2001, at 2:26:49
> > I have a lot of ideas about how we can heal ourselves, and they are grounded in my own experience. I've spent my whole life trying to understand myself and my processes, and thus far, with the help of a gifted psychotherapist, I've discovered some deep truths that I am inclined to believe are universal.
Hi Todd.
Deep truths & revelations come about through life experience (which is diminished by depression), not through cosy chat (IMO).> > We all need to whittle away at our fears and re-acquaint ourselves with who we really are.
> >Are we back on track here?
No, the implication of yr post is that all mental illness has psychological origins. There is absolutely no evidence to support this (& plenty that contradicts it). I am living evidence that yr assertion is at least partially incorrect. I have been told by a number of therapists that I have exceptional self-awareness & understanding for someone in my position; in the context of my illness tho',this means v. little.
Oh & I know 'who I really am'. I am...
Jah.
Posted by SLS on March 31, 2001, at 11:35:41
In reply to Re: REM, posted by coral on March 30, 2001, at 15:05:31
> Maybe my case is very different because one of the major markers for the severe clinical depression I experienced was the lack of dreaming or REM sleep.
Is reduced REM now recognized as occurring in a subset of cases of depression?
Someone else here was experiencing the same thing and even posted a question if anyone knew of any drugs that might increase REM.
If I weren't so intent on being silly, I probably would have researched the most recent statistics or thoughts regarding changes in REM and other sleep parameters in depression.
I guess it is as important to appreciate the potential variability in the occurences REM disturbances in depression as it is to recognize the variability of the presentations of depression themselves.
Thanks for sharing your experience. It will give me something else to look into. I am not very knowledgeable about sleep architecture.
Sincerely,
Scott
Posted by coral on March 31, 2001, at 12:34:27
In reply to Re: REM, posted by SLS on March 31, 2001, at 11:35:41
Dear Scott,
You bring up an excellent point concerning the variances in individuals concerning depression. (BTW, my original post was in response to someone who indicated that increased REM was a marker for depression.) This thread seems to argue the either/or position which I find a bit disturbing. The research of which I am aware indicates that both physiological as well as psychological factors contribute to causing depression. Again, from the research of which I am aware, the highest recovery rates come from a client engaging in both therapies. Undoubted, some people respond solely to meds while others respond solely to interpersonal therapy. My personal theory is that part of the difficulty is finding competence in either field. Hearing the horror stories re: interpersonal therapy, I can remark on how fortunate I was to find a superb therapist on the second attempt. On the med. side, I can fully identify with the difficulties - eleven doctors and innumerable meds before I found the right combination of doc and med. There are so few absolutes concerning the human mind. If juggling apples every Tuesday works for someone, I fail to see the point in either that person proclaiming having the answer for all, or others decrying that juggling apples isn't a cure. My question would be "What was there about juggling apples on Tuesday that made it successful?" Maybe it's the day, maybe it's the appples, maybe it's the belief it would work.
Regarding dreaming (REM), the void of dreaming nearly drove me insane when I experienced the depression. I've always done a great deal of work, or rather my subconscious has, in dreams and to be bereft of that tool was horrifying.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.