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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
I think I'm struggling right now with what feels like a big shift in therapy. For most of the past year I've felt pretty regressed with my therapist, especially when talking about the past and telling stories of csa. We've woven our way through so many tough issues, not the least of which has been my ongoing struggle with my dependency on him. Then 6 weeks ago my world dumped upside down and I had to deal simultaneously with a HUGE work crisis and a frightening health crisis here at home. There was absolutely no time to be regressed or to work on anything in therapy. The dependency was broken and the connection felt weakened, which felt like another whole crisis. We've talked about this a lot, how I feel, how the younger parts are buried and how I'm afraid to go deep again because of the potential return to painful dependency.
What I didn't realize was that those feelings of attachment were converting themselves into something else -- which remains undefined still, but essentially feels more like my adult self wanting to be close to him as well. It is confusing to want this from this perspective, because it feels really wrong. It isn't love and it isn't lust but it is a longing to be special and to be cared for. There are other feelings in here too...but they are all mixed up...anger and jealousy are part of all of this, but those feel like they belong to the younger parts of me. I'm frightened by this because it might fundamentally change how we interact.
I told him a lot of this today, sharing some journal pages and then trying to talk it through. It was hard for me, because I feel like I'm admitting to doing something wrong. And I told him how Tender's post above resonated with me and made me sad. Essentially I told him that it felt like a whole other side of me was asking him for something that I didn't think I was supposed to want.
He agreed that we are relating on a different level. That I'm not parentifying him right now, which possibly is a good thing. He said I've kept this adult, intellectual side of me at arms length, allowing the younger sides to connect and to weep. He thinks it might be a good thing that the adult wants comfort and connections too. I said I was afraid he would change the boundaries, and that my motives would be suspect -- is this a seduction? And what if the younger parts show up and want to talk again. Can we shift back?
What I know for sure is that this realization has made me very lonely. I'm acutely aware of how isolated I am in both my professional and my personal life. I can't share the pain or guilt or stress I feel with anyone in either place. Therapy used to be my most safe place, my base. But how can I think of my therapist as my safe base, like a toddler would, with all these other feelings in play?
I know we have a lot of work to do on all of this. It feels really important. And he really wants to talk about it. He said he would never quit on me...that he can handle whatever is coming up. I'm still scared. The internal war is heating up again between age states and who wants what. Sessions are never long enough. I need help navigating all this -- how do you make sense of any of it?
Posted by Dinah on May 24, 2005, at 1:39:36
In reply to Age states and attachment, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
With his help?
Seriously. He seems to have a good understanding of what's going on. I know it's hard to let go and trust, but you've got a good therapist there.
I'm afraid I can't help you personally. This would be outside my range of experience.
Trust him. Daisy, I hope it gets easier for you.
Posted by Jazzed on May 24, 2005, at 8:03:59
In reply to Age states and attachment, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
What you have said is so touching. I can almost feel your pain. I think you should print out the 1st 5 paragraphs and take it to him. Can you add extra sessions? I hope you can work through this, it will be easier I would guess, if he knows all your deepest, most sincere feelings.
Jazzed
Posted by thewrite1 on May 24, 2005, at 10:51:51
In reply to Age states and attachment, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
I really relate to this, probably because I'm in a very similar place. I've just gone through one of the most stressful times in my life and my T and I have been working on more surface stuff. Now that I'm mostly past that, I'm finding it hard to let myself be attached to her again.
To complicate matters, there's these whole other states that I'm just terrified for her to see. I had a massive panic attack about the whole thing right in front of her, but she was wonderful about it. I don't know where this is going and that scares me, but I know I have a wonderful T and I just try to trust the process. I hope you can do that, too. (((((you))))))
Posted by pinkeye on May 24, 2005, at 12:47:33
In reply to Age states and attachment, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
Daisy,
I am in the same situation as well - except in the reverse order. I used to be like an adult towards my T (now my ex) and now I feel like a child.I have been through some form of mild csa as well - and I can relate to how confusing it feels often - whether you are a kid or an adult - what you are supposed to be?
And I am having frighteningly confusing feelings now towards my ex T - some childish, some adult, some frightened and scared, some trusting and want to be close, some want to be as far away from him as possible. There is so much of confusion and I don't know how to make sense out of it all myself. And I don't even have him around now to tell him.
But I do trust your therapist fully. He has been extremely good with you and has proven his worth so much. So I would only think that you can trust him fully. And that he would know what is right for you and how to work it out. I trust your T so much because of his extreme care towards you which he has shown so many times in the past.
Posted by cricket on May 24, 2005, at 16:38:29
In reply to Age states and attachment, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
Hi Daisy,
I guess I have something similar although mine aren't just kids but adults too and they are fairly personified - they have names and ages and definite likes and dislikes and different areas of my life that different ones function in.
Is yours similar to this? Or is it just a younger/older self each with its own set of needs? Were you aware of them before therapy?
I know that you are far ahead of me in therapy with what sounds like a much better therapist but I certainly can relate to your feelings of lonliness and isolation. No one (except maybe a little here at Babble) and that includes my T knows about much of what goes on inside of me. I hope it all works out for you.
Posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 18:57:02
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » daisym, posted by Dinah on May 24, 2005, at 1:39:36
I don't think I have any other option except to trust him. I'm being as brutally honest with him as I can make myself be, tossing out ideas half-baked, which I almost never do. He keeps asking the same hard question: "Why isn't it Ok for you to feel so strongly about me?" I have a million reasons and yet they all sound stupid. I know where this discussion is leading and that path is really scary.
In my attempt to define these feelings I said, "I don't think I'm falling in love with you..." And his response was, "what if you were? What would that mean?" Isn't this where he was supposed to just say, "good, because that is just sooo unacceptable." He just repeats that I can say anything and everything to him. He wants to hear it. And he won't run screaming from the room. I had to cover a grin, it made me think of you.
Posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:03:18
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment, posted by Jazzed on May 24, 2005, at 8:03:59
When I really committed to therapy I promised myself that I would try to be honest about things as much as possible. Sometimes it takes me awhile to say things outloud, but I try very hard to find the words to convey the feelings. I take in journal pages frequently, it is one way that I can organize my thoughts. My therapist encourages this as he knows it is a coping and containing activity for me. And he said once that I'm brutally honest in my writings, about him and about me.
This is all very painful and I don't truly understand the depths of it yet. As far as adding sessions, yes, I can do that if I need to. Or I can call, I'm lucky that my therapist is really good on the phone. I'll probably see him everyday this week except Friday.
Posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:09:50
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » daisym, posted by thewrite1 on May 24, 2005, at 10:51:51
I have to say that it is ironic that therapy is supposed to help us live our lives better and yet life sometimes gets in the way of doing good therapy!
What made you panic with your therapist? I've done that, had a panic attack during a session, so I'm curious what you were feeling, (if you don't mind sharing.) Having these different age states can be very frightening, especially if you don't know if your therapist will be accepting of them or not.
I told my therapist today that while we were trying to figure out this adult-to-adult stuff, there was screaming going on in the background from the younger parts of me. There has been a wall around this part since I started taking the medication and those regressive feelings are easier to squash. He said he doesn't want me to squash them, that there is room in his office for all of me and we need to still allow time and space for "her" to talk. But I'm not sure I want her to.
I hope you find the connection again soon.
Posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:22:50
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » daisym, posted by cricket on May 24, 2005, at 16:38:29
Cricket,
I think I've identified 3 distinct age states: a young, scared 7-year-old, an angry nine-year-old and a 12-13-year-old. I wasn't aware of ever having these feelings before therapy. But then again, I'd repressed purposefully those memories. I thought I was beyond all this and that it never needed to be dealt with. My therapist likes to say that I exiled my feelings, not that I was cold or anything, but those deep feelings that might allow me to open up and connect to another person were sent away. We refer to the younger states as "little daisy" in therapy because trying to talk about "her" "me" "us" or "I" makes me nuts. But these states don't typically take over completely, they just torture me internally, trying to get their needs met.
I'm sorry you don't have more support IRL. It must be hard to have such complications and not be able to talk about them. Do you have a therapist who is experienced working with DID? I would think that would be important. Your therapist knows about your other personalities, right?
Posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:40:12
In reply to Trust your T to help you. » daisym, posted by pinkeye on May 24, 2005, at 12:47:33
Thanks for the support. I wrote you a long reply but it seems to have disappeared into Babbleland. *sigh*
Mostly I wanted to say how sad I am for you that you have all these confusing feelings and you can't process them with your ex-therapist. I hope your new therapist is helping with that. I wonder if your recent conversation with your dad hasn't triggered some of this conflict. What is real and what is it you think you are supposed to do? Perhaps I'm just not ready but forgiveness and understanding feel a long way off for me. I simply cope by keeping my dad split into the grandpa he is now and the dad he was then. You are braver than me for being able to talk about it.
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by pinkeye on May 24, 2005, at 20:57:39
In reply to Re: Trust your T to help you. » pinkeye, posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:40:12
Maybe because I really don't think I had csa as such. Maybe a very mild form of it. That is why I was able to forgive my father very quickly. I can understand though how it would feel if you had real csa. I would never ever have forgiven my dad if he had done any of it.
And I am trying to make peace with the fact that my ex T isn't around. Today I feel like it is quite allright. Somedays I feel bad, but days like today I seem to be allright.
Thanks for your posts. I learnt a lot from them
Posted by Annierose on May 24, 2005, at 21:44:57
In reply to Re: Trust your T to help you. » pinkeye, posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:40:12
Daisy,
Do you feel you must be able to "forgive" your dad before you can go forward? I'm not sure that CSA is forgivable. I'm sincerly interested in your take.
And, I guess for me (and I wasn't a victim of SA), forgiveness on my part would only be considered as an option, with an apology, explanation and major tearful, heartfelt begging on his part.
Has your T offered you any insight into the topic of forgiveness?
Posted by soulnik on May 24, 2005, at 22:17:48
In reply to Age states and attachment, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
Wow. Your therapist sounds awesome! I just dumped my therapist and I am having all of these issues about the fact that she just let me do it, over the phone, two week after my parent's died, just after she'd returned from a 3 week vacation. Your post really put some stuff in perspective for me.
I think you should trust your therapist. He sounds committed to working this through with you and if you have established a trust level that allowed you to get this far, there is no reason to believe it will fail.
It takes so much courage to do therapy with the kind of honesty with which you speak. I say take your time with it and give yourself permission to freak out about it and go wherever it leads.
Posted by thewrite1 on May 24, 2005, at 22:59:12
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » thewrite1, posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:09:50
I don't know much about her, but there's an angry thewrite1 in there that is really angry and mean and doesn't think about anything she says. My T has told me it's perfectly fine that she's there and for her to talk. I refuse, and that would probably be made easier if I WASN'T so attached to my T. I'm terrified angry thewrite1 will destroy our relationship. So that's what caused the panic attack. My T was urging her out and I was trying to keep her in. Just the thought of letting her talk sends me into a panic.
Posted by thewrite1 on May 24, 2005, at 23:01:00
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » thewrite1, posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 19:09:50
I wanted to ask you how long you've known about these age states. This is really new to me. I just thought that either I was crazy or that everyone has these voices in their head.
Posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 23:46:26
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » Daisym, posted by thewrite1 on May 24, 2005, at 22:59:12
I'm sorry -- I know about the panic connected to the anger. I have the same fear you do, that anger will wreck our relationship and this is compounded by my fear that he'll get angry back. (Can you even imagine my gentle therapist angry? Incredible that I think this, but still...) So I keep that angry 9-year-old in tight control. She writes, I don't take in those pages. I guess the question is what is your youngerself angry about?
As far as when I knew about the age states, it was probably 9 or 10 months after I started therapy. I finally told about the abuse, tiny bits and we tiptoed into the rest of it. I think I've written about this, but during one session my therapist actually started talking to "her" and to my astonishment, she talked back. I felt so frickin young! And I blew up at him: "why did you do that! How could you...blah, blah" His response was, "she was right there, in the room with us, couldn't you feel her?" Well, yes, but he wasn't supposed to feel her! It took awhile before I would really just let her talk to him. But we had one really intense session where I was asking him questions from her but still carefully saying, "the younger parts of me wonder..." and so on. We were talking about how confusing sex was for a 10 year old and I was crying. I told him I needed my mother and she didn't save me. He nodded his head with tears in his eyes and I looked directly at him and said, "if you had known me then, would you have told someone?" I could actually feel the room narrow...it was just him and me, the younger me.
He said, very firmly, "yes, I would have told."
Me: "but so many people will get into trouble."
Him: "I know."
Me: "and then what?"
Him: "we pick up the pieces."And then we sat together for awhile. It was clear that the past had become present tense in those moments and full trust was established. It was a defining moment. We've talked about that session and one or two others in which time stops and he is interacting with a younger part of me directly. It is freaky, mind-blowing and yet so healing.
It takes courage but if you can let those pieces out a little at a time, the rewards will be worth the effort. As much as there are times when I want all this to stop and I want to bury those parts of me, I know this is true in my heart of hearts.
I'd like to know what you think about this.
Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 0:26:45
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » Dinah, posted by Daisym on May 24, 2005, at 18:57:02
I smiled too. Your therapist often reminds me of mine, only nicer and more approachable.
Posted by thewrite1 on May 25, 2005, at 11:08:03
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » thewrite1, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 23:46:26
I honestly don't know what my youngerself is angry about. I know she has a lot to be angry about, to be sure, but really the anger just consumes me. She's angry with me, too. That's a big part of why I find it so hard to let her out in session. I KNOW how her words make me feel, and I can't stand having her words turn on my T that way. In theory, I know if I let her out and it doesn't destroy our relationship, that will be a good thing. But what if it does? My T has talked to her before, she just didn't know it, or at least I don't think she did. It's like having a maniac inside of me, and constantly trying to drag her back, saying, "Enough. Behave yourself."
Oddly enough, anger is what led me to therapy to begin with. It was more of an outward thing then. Perhaps the two of us were blending and that's what scard me? I don't know, but I should bring that up to my T.
I happy (and also a little envious) of your experiences with your T. He sounds wonderful. My T is wonderful, too. I thought I had built up enough trust in her to talk about anything until this came up. I guess we have a lot more work to do.
Posted by Daisym on May 25, 2005, at 13:19:54
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » daisym, posted by thewrite1 on May 25, 2005, at 11:08:03
I think trust is a tricky thing when you have these pieces and parts. It isn't just about trusting your therapist, it is about trusting that you, yourself, can handle what comes out. I don't trust the process, even if I trust my therapist, mostly because I feel so out of control. I'm just in it.
Figuring out where the anger is coming from is probably as important or more important than expressing it. But expressing it might lead you to where it is coming from. I know it will be hard. I think I'm scared for you! But I'm here to listen if it helps.
Posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 17:43:45
In reply to Age states and attachment, posted by daisym on May 24, 2005, at 0:46:22
It sounds like a good thing that your adult part is looking for attachment, especially in view of the struggles you are currently involved in. No wonder the adult Daisy needs a little care.
I imagine there won’t be any need for a change of boundaries. Even if you went as far as to feel love or lust, it wouldn’t be wrong. Even if you felt your motives were suspect or seductive, they wouldn’t be wrong. Your therapist won’t need to back away from you if you want adult attachment; he won’t reject you emotionally.
I was afraid my therapist would back off from me emotionally one time when I told him of my disgraceful and excessive sexual desires (not that I mentioned my desire for him, but I’m pretty sure he knew). But he didn’t act surprised or disgusted or annoyed or anything like that. I’d expected to feel a wall go up between us, and instead it felt as if we were actually closer. The boundaries were already in place, so they didn’t need to change. He didn’t seem to feel any need to protect himself from me; instead, his reaction made me feel safe, and I started to think maybe my desires weren’t so disgraceful after all.
Maybe you’re not talking about sexual desires so much as other kinds of adult attachment, but I still think he won’t need to move the boundaries. He will, however, be able to offer you compassion, and therapy should still feel safe. And even if you do fall in love with him, it can be intensely rewarding, because love is a gift. I guess I feel that love is never wrong or inappropriate. Your therapist has the sense to welcome it for what it is.
I think good therapists really have a gift for understanding our feelings and accepting them, without making us feel slimy and disgusting. Your therapist is one of the best.
Posted by thewrite1 on May 25, 2005, at 22:49:41
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » thewrite1, posted by Daisym on May 25, 2005, at 13:19:54
Thanks, and yes, that's it! Trusting that I can handle it! That, and I really am concerned about hurting my T.
I had a phone session today and I told my T I was afraid to let the other write to her or talk to her. She asked me what I was afraid of and I told her that I just didn't know what she would say and that I need her and can't have this other state destroying the relationship. She said she understood and that she couldn't think of anything she could say where that would happen. She said it's work for us to do together and that she's there for me. "I'm here." *sigh* How am I ever supposed to give her up?
Posted by daisym on May 26, 2005, at 0:54:44
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » daisym, posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 17:43:45
Thank you for that nice message. I think you are right about the boundaries, so far he has changed anything. And we talked intensely about a particular abuse situation today and he didn't pull back or look uncomfortable about the details. And there were some pretty demanding questions straight at him and he took it all well.
As far as love goes, I'll have to think about that. It is scary and I think potentially painful to admit loving someone who can't possibly love you back. Perhaps it is unavoidable.
Posted by daisym on May 26, 2005, at 1:11:36
In reply to Re: Age states and attachment » Daisym, posted by thewrite1 on May 25, 2005, at 22:49:41
You aren't yet! :)
I'm so glad she was so open to this and she is there for you. Hearing that is important. I mean, I know we are supposed to know this from their actions, but sometimes it helps to hear it too.
I'm also glad you told her what you were afraid of. That way she can help you get past that fear and move into what this is really about.
These age states can sort of sneak out when you aren't really ready, so it was better to prepare her ahead of time I think.
This is the end of the thread.
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