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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on July 27, 2004, at 23:59:03
I skipped group tonight. Called this morning and said I wasn't coming. (Of course I still get to pay for the session.) I almost relented at the last minute, but I didn't go. It felt soooo good to not be there. My whole mood was uplifted today. It just felt like such a weight off. Even my body has unclenched since I decided to skip.
I don't know if I'm quitting for good or not.
Posted by pegasus on July 28, 2004, at 12:59:12
In reply to Group-Free Tuesday!, posted by tabitha on July 27, 2004, at 23:59:03
Hey Tabitha! I'm so glad that you got a big boost from skipping your group. I think it makes sense to pay attention to that reaction. I wonder what they thought about you being gone? I guess it doesn't matter, does it!
I'll be curious to hear what you decide about the long term (staying or leaving). But I think anything that makes you so happy when you skip it can't be all good for you.
Just my 2 cents.
pegasus
Posted by tabitha on July 28, 2004, at 13:44:56
In reply to Re: Group-Free Tuesday! » tabitha, posted by pegasus on July 28, 2004, at 12:59:12
Yeah, my T is always asking me 'how does it feel in your body' when I'm debating things. My body was definitely gung-ho happy about not going.
I'll talk to her about it more tomorrow. If I do quit, I don't know if she'll want me to go back for termination sessions. It's part of the contract to give 6 week notice I think. Yikes. But I think she might let me off the hook.
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2004, at 15:47:30
In reply to Re: Group-Free Tuesday! » pegasus, posted by tabitha on July 28, 2004, at 13:44:56
Well, at least you got a week's respite. But I'm with Pegasus, I think. I recently made a tentative decision, and my reaction was enormous relief. Which sort of told me something.
In fact, sometimes I make that part of my decision process. I "make" a decision, any decision, and then listen to my gut reaction to it. Sometimes it's surprising. :)
Posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 20:23:36
In reply to Re: Group-Free Tuesday! » pegasus, posted by tabitha on July 28, 2004, at 13:44:56
Tabitha,
I'm glad you made a decision that brought you a happy feeling. That's good to hear.I've been reading an interesting book called The Group Therapy Experience, from Theory to Practice. It's written by Louis R. Ormont, Ph.D.
It gives a look at group therapy from the therapist's standpoint, and discusses techniques they can/should/shouldn't use to draw out people, initiate discussion, handle disagreements, and recognize their own weaknesses in managing the group.
I have not tried group therapy, but I think that reading this book would help me if I do it in the future. I would know kind of what to expect and what kinds of things the therapist might do / not do to steer the group.
I apologize if you or others have mentioned this (or similar) books before, since I just got into Babble recently.
Anyway, I was wondering if you'd read this or other books? Has your T. talked openly about her methods for managing the group?
Do you think you'll go back to the group again?
Wishing you the best!JenStar
Posted by tabitha on July 30, 2004, at 14:20:03
In reply to Re: Group-Free Tuesday!, posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 20:23:36
I think my T threatened me. She wants me to do the 6 termination sessions with the group. That's part of the contract-- you're supposed to give 6-week notice if you quit. I figure she'll charge me for them whether I show up or not. I said it would be worth that much money to me to not have to go.
As I was leaving, she said it's important to our relationship for me to do the termination sessions. So, is she like threatening to not be my therapist anymore if I don't do them? What else can she do, besides charge me, which I assume she'll do.
This really hurts. It seems she's choosing the group's needs and/or her needs over my well-being. Six weeks is a long time. I can't imagine dragging out the torture for six weeks, plus having to hear whatever they'll say to me from this point.
The last session with her was pretty bad. I actually thought she would be happy that I'd gotten clarity about the group, and felt so much better from not going. Not at all. She said well you have to take care of yourself, but not in an I'm happy for you tone at all. More an I'm disappointed in you tone. Then the whole session we mostly argued. I argued about the last session, where the woman really attacked me harshly, and she argued about the prior sessions, where it was less of an attack, but I still felt bad from it. It felt pointless. I just felt misunderstood, and it felt as if she's treating me like I'm totally unreasonable and nutty.
I just keep saying it's not good for me to be in a group where I get that much criticism. I agree that it would be nice if I was not so sensitive and had boundaries to protect me, but I don't right now. I tried her suggestions of how to talk to myself about it and it didn't help much. I'm still spending all my time obsessing and feeling bad about it, and feeling dread of the next session. It's just not good for my life right now. It's really dragged me down. I don't see why that's hard to grasp, or unacceptable or something. I just can't imagine dragging it out for 6 more weeks.
Although of course if she's going to pressure me like this, then the pain still goes on. I just didn't think she'd do this. I can't see how to make it stop except quit therapy, then it will be a different pain, but maybe it will end sooner.
I can't endure 6 more group sessions just to please her. That would feel sooooo wrong. Plus I don't think it would please her anyway, because even if I force myself to go, I can't force myself to feel differently about it, and participate the way she'd want me to.
This is just so awful. It's hard to even believe it's happening. I've been with this T for something like 12 years.
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 15:52:08
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash, posted by tabitha on July 30, 2004, at 14:20:03
I can't even imagine, Tabitha. :( I've been with my therapist for nine, and I can't imagine our fundamental relationship changing so radically.
You say you're not sure if she's threatening you. Do you think it might be wise to call her and get directly to brass tacks?
How will it affect our therapeutic relationship if I pay for the sessions but don't go? Will you terminate me? If I do agree to go in order to salvage our relationship, how much involvement are you expecting from me? May I just show up and technically fill the requirements? What is the purpose of the six week termination, and how do you propose to protect me in the group during this period. I'm afraid you're very angry with me, and I want to know if you think our relationship can make it through this crisis. You've been my therapist for twelve years and you're very important to me.
I think pressing for answers is far better than the uncertainty of trying to guess. But that's just me. I can be incredibly insistent on answers sometimes because I have a very low tolerance for ambiguity.
Posted by JenStar on July 30, 2004, at 16:05:58
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash, posted by tabitha on July 30, 2004, at 14:20:03
hi tabitha,
I'm sorry you're going through such a rough time trying to terminate. I agree with Dinah that directly asking her about the issues, point-blank, is a good idea.I would even recommend typing up a list of questions that you need answered and bring it to the discussion, so that in case you get rattled or upset during the discussion you still have a reminder of what needs to get answered.
If she's been your T for so long, it's hard to imagine that she wants ILL for you. Maybe she's misguided right now, but most likely doing this for your benefit (she must think it will be good for you even if painful.)
On the one hand -- money isn't everything. If you are truly ready to be done, just wash your hands & walk away, even if she charges you.
On the other hand - maybe knowing that you're 6 sessions away will free you up in the group to act differently, act more confidently, and care less about the antics of Mean Woman.
In that book I was reading, the writer/therapist gave many, MANY examples of how people treat each other like crap in group sessions and he did NOT try to stop them. He said that if he pointed out their flaws and transferences too early they might stop the behavior but never really understand the motivations for such behavior, and the change would not come from the heart but rather from a form of self-censorship.
He would wait for the GROUP to address issues with each other. He said that people usually would only see their behavior as troubling once they saw, over and over again, how it negatively affected the feelings of many others in the group towards them. This takes lots of time and feeling can be hurt while it happens!
It sounds like a very painful process to me...being lambasted on all sides as flawed people work through their issues and figure out that they have misplaced aggression towards mother, father, etc.
So I've never been in your group, of course, and I can't judge. But perhaps Mean Woman is working thru some tough problems and your T wants you there as a sounding board to help MW realize her own issues. That's not necessarily fair to YOU, esp. if you're not being protected at all.
This stuff is always so confusing. But I hope you can get some straight answers from the T, and I hope that it all goes well.
Thinking of you!
JenStar
Posted by fallsfall on July 30, 2004, at 16:58:29
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash, posted by tabitha on July 30, 2004, at 14:20:03
The groups that I have been in required a certain amount of "closure" time. As I understand it there are a couple of reasons for this.
1. You (and I) know that there are times we want to just pack it in, but we do go back to our therapist and we find that those are the times when we learn the most. Group is the same way. The closure time helps ensure that you don't quit everytime you run into a tough issue that is uncomfortable.
2. Other people in the group need to have time to have closure with you. I'm sure there have been times in your life when someone has gone away abruptly and you are left standing there saying "but...but..." and wishing that you could finish your thoughts with that person (either good thoughts or bad thoughts). The 6 weeks gives the other group members time to figure out what your leaving will mean to them, and time to talk about the things that they need to talk about in relation to you leaving. A lot of people in therapy have abandonment issues - this gives people a chance to work on them.
3. They dynamics of the group change when someone leaves. I remember going to group and being very disappointed because a particular member wasn't there that time. I was counting on them to be there so that I could get their reaction to the particular thing I wanted to talk about that time. Knowing in advance that someone is leaving gives the other group members a chance to explore what the new group dynamics will be without the person who is leaving.
4. Your therapist may wish to fill your slot in the group. There is an optimal number for each group. I joined a group that had 2 people in it. 2 people really wasn't enough - 3 was quite iffy, 4 was better etc. But there is an upper limit, too (8?). Depending on the size of the group, your therapist may have told people who want to join that the group was full. Or if the group will now be too small, she may want to do some recruiting among her peers - to see if there is someone else suitable who wants to join. These things take a little time.
5. I really think that the money is the least of your therapist's concerns. I found that, particularly in group, the money was a lever to keep the group stable.
I have joined groups, left them, and watched while others left. There is more at stake here than your therapist's pocketbook. Please try to understand that your presence in the group HAS effected other group members, and your absence will be felt in more ways than you would imagine.
If it is possible, I would suggest that you spend these 6 weeks trying to understand why you find the group so intolerable.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could learn important things without a bunch of pain?????
Good luck, Tabitha.
Posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 17:18:12
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash, posted by tabitha on July 30, 2004, at 14:20:03
I'm going to stick in my two cents worth, though, because I like seeing my name up here :-D
OK, it's really because what you're going through sounds so much like what I just went through, so it's triggering a lot of the same things for me.
Anyway, Dinah's advice sounds an awful lot like what I would suggest. I won't bother to add to it, beyond saying that I like JenStar's idea to take a list along with you to the session, so that you can refer to it if you feel flustered.
The only original suggestion I have is whether there's any room for negotiation with your T about this? Can you ask her if you can go to one (or two, or even three) additional sessions to provide some sort of "closure" to the other members of the group? (And for you, for that matter.) Can you negotiate along the lines of "You know, in business, giving notice is a professional courtesy -- although by no means a legally mandated one -- and it is generally accepted that two weeks is a reasonable expectation. I don't feel comfortable agreeing to six more weeks of this, but I am willing to commit to giving two weeks notice. What will it take to make that acceptable to you?"
Another thought, somewhere between a question and a suggestion: can you confront some of the things your therapist points out to you that you don't agree with? Not arguing, just saying something like, "That's one theory, but this is the way I see it -- and I think my view is valid." Now, that may bring down a fair amount of "OH NO IT IS NOT VALID!" on you, but -- this is only the opinion of one person suffering from a serious mental illness -- I think that would be a healthy response. (Maybe because I just did it myself in my last session... And my bright shiny new therapist agreed with me, once I clarified what I meant a tiny bit.)
Personally, although I certainly wouldn't recommend this, the question I'd be asking at this point in a similar situation is more along the lines of, "Why are you so personally invested in my remaining in this group? What need is my being in this group satisfying for you that you can't seem to meet any other way?" Again, that's something I'd recommend against, because it's not something that's going to get you anything positive, but it's the thought that keeps coming into my mind when I read about your situation. (And, frankly, it's only coming into my mind because I think you've handled everything else so well up to this point, only to meet such unwavering opposition. Once I try all the healthy, positive things, I do tend to fall back on a certain kind of aggression. I'm nice to people because I *choose* to be nice -- but it doesn't mean that I'm nice to them because I'm incapable of any other mode.)
Let me tell you something about my experience, in hopes it will help you. You know that I had a few years of therapy with a wonderful therapist many years ago. It ended for a number of reasons, one of which was a conflict over medications -- she said that meds were another way of hiding from my problems, rather than a useful tool -- but one reason really was that we'd done pretty much all we could do together. I've run into this with students, too: they'll get to the point I have to tell them that I can't take them any farther. That's so hard to do, and I don't always do it well -- remember, I always adored my students -- but sometimes it's just the truth. I'm very good within my limitations, and telling someone that I can't do any more doesn't diminish that. In the case of my former therapist, she was WONDERFUL -- and we hit her boundary with me. It doesn't mean that what we accomplished was any less real or valuable, it just means that we got to the point of diminishing returns. I still think she was great. Period. Moving on when it's appropriate is hard, but sometimes it's the healthiest thing to do.
You know that I finally managed to quit therapy at the Agency That Hasn't Worked Real Well For Me, so let me tell you a bit about how I experienced it emotionally. First of all, I didn't have the long history with them that you have with your T, so there's not a direct parallel. What I did have, though, was an unfortunate combination of *really* wanting therapy, and an overwhelming dread of being seen as a quitter. Made it hard as [that place] to quit. During the time I was there, though, I was told repeatedly that I wasn't willing to work, and that's why it was so dreadful for me. (Gotta love that logic, huh? Trust me, there's no way to win against it.) Now, with my fear of being or seeming a quitter, you can probably understand how that affected me, right?
Once I finally made the move though, it didn't take all that long to start to recover from the experience. (Of course, I also had a heck of a lot of structural support: my husband and I were doing so much better, our marriage counselor was a rock, our MC had already found me a new therapist, I had all of you here, and I had reached out to some old friends. That makes such a difference: even at the worst moments on the worst days, I don't feel so utterly alone.) I thought I'd need at least a month to start therapy again, that I'd have trouble opening my mouth, etc. Nope. Not only did I call to move up the first appointment by three weeks, but I managed to get through all the crud before that first appointment - the doubts and dreads, which were pretty daunting. That first session was frightening, and I know I was hypervigilant, but I did it -- and when it was over, I felt good about it. Scared, shaken, but good. Now, while it's still new and scary, it's still good and getting better.
For me, quitting was the best thing I could possibly have done for myself -- it provided more relief from the depression, the anxiety, the absolute hysterics, and the overwhelming lack of self-confidence. I don't know how much to attribute to the fact that I *made a decision and acted on it* and how much is simply getting out of what had become a poisonous environment. It is a combination of the two, but I don't know which predominates.
I know you don't want to change therapists, Tabitha, and I'm not suggesting that you do. What I am telling you is that sometimes making a decision and acting on it is empowering; and that, if you do ultimately change therapists, it won't mean that you "wasted time" with this one.
I'm sorry this is still going on, Tabs. I hope it gets better soon.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 17:40:34
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash, posted by JenStar on July 30, 2004, at 16:05:58
I'm just picking this up out of your post, as I find it incredibly interesting ... "It sounds like a very painful process to me...being lambasted on all sides as flawed people work through their issues and figure out that they have misplaced aggression towards mother, father, etc."
It hit me really hard as I was reading this: is this what it's like for a therapist????
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 17:45:32
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash, posted by fallsfall on July 30, 2004, at 16:58:29
I really like what you had to say in this post. Just for the record.
Posted by tabitha on July 31, 2004, at 2:07:54
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash, posted by fallsfall on July 30, 2004, at 16:58:29
I feel as if I just got lectured. Of course I know the reasons for a termination period in a group contract. But if it's a choice between the group's needs or the therapist's needs and my own well-being, I'm going to choose me.
Posted by zenhussy on July 31, 2004, at 2:20:48
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on July 31, 2004, at 2:07:54
Tabitha,
I'm very sorry this has been such the arduous journey you've been on doing individual therapy in addition to group.
You've given it your all. You went and got checked by your doc (I think....no memory here) and ruled out med issues. So you figured the root of a lot of these ongoing stressors was this group.
You've written here about it eloquently. You've expressed yourself clearly in how you feel about your therapist and her changing sides between you and the group.
I've gone bonkers just trying to keep up with her!
It sounds like you are going to leave group and if so then that's a good decision for you.
My next question is are you going to stick with this therapist for individual? That's the next biggie to gnaw on.
I'm very proud of all the hard work you did while in this group and ending it in no ways takes from you all that work. Hurrah and applause for Tabitha!!
--zh
Posted by fallsfall on July 31, 2004, at 8:26:20
In reply to Re: Ugh.. group-free backlash » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on July 31, 2004, at 2:07:54
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to lecture (though re-reading my post I certainly did lecture). I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you are clueless about the reasons behind these things. You are intellegent and insightful.
I think I just wanted to remind you of the arguments for staying, and also to provide the rest of the board with some information about how groups work.
That said, my tone was out of line. My only excuse is that I'm having a really hard time with my therapist on vacation. I wasn't trying to chastise you - just to ask you to consider the group's needs - and whether this could be one of those times when you have to go through the intense pain to make the gain.
I spent some time in an aggressive group when I was fragile. I quit - against their advice and my group therapist's advice. My individual therapist (I found out years later) had no clue what was going on in group - I wasn't trying to hide it from her, but clearly I wasn't explaining it well either. I went from that group into DBT - my "reason" for leaving the group was that I wanted to have the time/money for DBT. But the group was intolerable for me. What would have happened if I stuck around and fought for myself in the group? I don't know. The therapist said almost nothing in the group, so I felt like I had no advocate (I know that you feel that way too - and almost to the point where you feel that she is adversarial). Looking back, I think that leaving that group was the right thing for me to do. It would be interesting to be in that group now, to see whether I am stronger now.
I have seen, over and over again, times when you have been in great pain in therapy, but when the dust settles you have learned a lot - and you have been glad that you stuck it out. You have courage and perseverance - and they have paid off for you. I don't know if this is one of those times, too. It may not be - it may be time for you to leave (just like it was time for me to leave that group).
Please understand that I'm not unsympathetic to your pain. And I wish for you a happy and painfree life. I will respect whatever decision you make.
Friends?
Falls.
Posted by JenStar on July 31, 2004, at 15:00:55
In reply to Jenstar, posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 17:40:34
hi Susan,
I'm not a therapist myself (although I like to pretend to be an 'armchair psychologist' sometimes!)In the book I was reading, written by a therapist, it def. sounded like group therapy can be hard for the group members at time. Sorry if I was vague in my previous mail - I meant that comment about 'being lambasted on all sides' to refer to group member who are being assaulted by peers, not the therapist.
The therapist who wrote the book said that he often lets difficult situations in Group keep going on without interfering himself, in order to let the group members resolve the pain.
If a T lets it go on TOO long, though, it seems to me that it could easily cross the line from agressive 'tough love' into 'abandonment.' If group members are rather fragile, and the T allows members to argue and be too mean to each other, I could see the situation turning from painful/beneficial into painful/setback-ish.
Of course I'm not in Tabitha's group so it's not fair for me to try and assume I know what's going on! But this book was fascinating to me - it opened up some insight into what the T is thinking about during difficult Group sessions, and how the T plans to handle conflict among members.
Anyway, hope you're doing well.
take care!JenStar
> I'm just picking this up out of your post, as I find it incredibly interesting ... "It sounds like a very painful process to me...being lambasted on all sides as flawed people work through their issues and figure out that they have misplaced aggression towards mother, father, etc."
> It hit me really hard as I was reading this: is this what it's like for a therapist????
>
>
Posted by tabitha on July 31, 2004, at 18:36:26
In reply to Re: I'd choose you anyday over them!! » tabitha, posted by zenhussy on July 31, 2004, at 2:20:48
This is the end of the thread.
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