Shown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mair on June 1, 2004, at 22:22:31
This is a cautionary tale to all those who wish they knew alot more about their therapists.
I've been seeing my T for about 5 years (unlike Daisy, I've lost all track of time). A couple of years into the therapy, I discovered, quite inadvertently, that my T's husband had recently written a very personal account about his own struggles with depression. The book contained alot of detail about how his depression affected his marriage. I was pretty much blown away when I read the book because I had a very different image (thoroughly self-generated) about my T and her family life. It also raised some issues for me because the struggles she and her husband faced as described in the book were very similar to ones I faced with my own husband; these were things we had been talking about alot at the time that I discovered and read the book. I really didn't want to talk to my T about the book (which she had never mentioned to me) but as time went on I realized I had to because it really was starting to interfere with therapy. We'd be talking about something and I'd be thinking about what I knew of her own life. I'm not great about delving into difficult topics and it took me a long time to screw up the courage to tell her that I had read her husband's book. I was really helped by a former poster here who went over this with me in great detail via email. Once I finally told her, of course we had to process what that meant to me, which we did for several sessions, ad nauseum actually. These weren't easy sessions, but I did admire the way she was willing to address what must have been awkward for her. Since then she has periodically raised the issue of the book to make sure that my knowledge of her own personal life isn't inhibiting me in therapy, particularly when we've been discussing issues similar to those raised in the book. Mostly I stopped thinking about it and assumed, as she told me at the time, that her husband was seeking treatment and things were alot better. The book did, afterall, describe a period which was some years removed from the year the book was actually published.
Over the last several weeks I've noticed that for whatever reason I've started to open up to her much more freely. We've both looked at this as a real step forward because my inability to talk about lots of things has at times been a real source of difficulty. Also, I'm going through a rather tough time with my husband now and it's been very valuable to have the release of being able to talk to my T about my marriage - my relationship with my husband is pretty much all we've talked about recently. A couple of sessions ago, she brought up the book again and I made some remark about not wanting to "go there" mostly just because I had another more pressing thought that I needed to discuss. She took my response to mean that I was thinking alot about matters discussed in the book and just felt uncomfortable addressing them. So she raised it again today. I can't recreate the long progression of the discussion we had but the upshot was that she told me toward the end of the session that she and her husband had separated. After some discussions with her supervisor she had decided that she should share this with patients, or at least some patients, minimally because we live in a pretty small area and she thought it better that I hear this from her rather than from someone else. I think she picked up from things I had been saying lately that I was sensing that something was wrong and that this was leading to alot of anxieties on my part about termination. And of course it occurred to her that once again we were now discussing issues which were very similar to ones she faced. In actuality, I hadn't picked up on anything; either I'm too self-absorbed to pay much attention, or she's done a remarkable job of not letting her own situation interfere with mine. Her parting shot at the end of the session was that this was alot for me to process and that we would need to continue to talk about it in my next session.
I compartmentalize things and I frankly thought I would be unaffected by this news. I don't usually think much about therapy in between sessions. Not so - to the contrary it's raised all sorts of anxieties, and off and on it's hard to think about anything else. Mostly, I don't want to talk to her about any of this at all, and I think it's really awful that she's in a position where she has to address it with her patients just because some of us know more than any patient in a therapeutic relationship should, at least according to prevailing wisdom. I'm really torn between not wanting to have this discussion with her, and wanting very much to know enough to assure myself that she's holding up ok. ... and when you think about it, how can I really assure myself of that anyway.
I realize that this is probably a pretty unique circumstance - fortunately most of us don't have the experience of being given such an open look into a T's personal life. Having been dealt that card, she's unbelievably professional in the way that she puts the issue out on the table, knowing that she probably has to in order to make sure that our familiarity hasn't compromised our ability to work with her. I have all the respect in the world for her, but this whole experience has taught me that no matter how much we think we'd like to know, it's alot more comfortable to know less.
Mair
Posted by crushedout on June 1, 2004, at 22:44:15
In reply to Be Careful What You Wish For (long), posted by mair on June 1, 2004, at 22:22:31
Thanks for sharing that, Mair. It's really interesting and helpful to consider.
Posted by fallsfall on June 2, 2004, at 9:09:53
In reply to Be Careful What You Wish For (long), posted by mair on June 1, 2004, at 22:22:31
Wow.
I'm glad that you talked to her about the book. And I'm glad that she is being professional now. I can see why she would want you to know that she has separated.
It is SOOO hard to know whether we don't want to talk about things because they aren't relevant or because we are uncomfortable with them. It is even harder when our therapists are caught up in the issue, so they have trouble being objective about it, too. I wish both of you skill and luck in traversing this tricky spot. It sounds like she is very good, and that even if she makes mistakes in this area that the two of you will be able to learn from them.
Posted by crushedout on June 2, 2004, at 19:25:12
In reply to Be Careful What You Wish For (long), posted by mair on June 1, 2004, at 22:22:31
mair, your post had such an impact on me that i actually dreamt about a situation like this last night. it was really uncomfortable and weird. i think this is really important and interesting for me to think about.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 2, 2004, at 19:59:54
In reply to Be Careful What You Wish For (long), posted by mair on June 1, 2004, at 22:22:31
That must have been absolutely surreal to have that kind of information and insight into your therapist. It sounds like the both of you handled it very maturely and that it is a valuable lesson to the rest of us. Thanks for sharing. (Glad the two of you were able to work through it.)
Posted by mair on June 2, 2004, at 20:47:56
In reply to Re: Be Careful What You Wish For (long) » mair, posted by crushedout on June 2, 2004, at 19:25:12
How did your dream come out? I'm curious about how you would respond to my situation.
Mair
Posted by mair on June 2, 2004, at 21:19:15
In reply to Re: Be Careful What You Wish For (long), posted by Aphrodite on June 2, 2004, at 19:59:54
"That must have been absolutely surreal to have that kind of information and insight into your therapist."Very surreal, then (when i read the book), and even now when I think about the book. I can't figure out whether it was for the best - I think the whole process of talking about the book was the foundation for me getting a little more comfortable talking about our relationship although I'm probably light years away from feeling as comfortable as I should. And I guess I know that she's not likely to trivialize what i go through with my husband. On the other hand, I'm the one in this relationship who most likes to keep a distance - I've never had any problem crossing boundaries. I'm not at all sure I like having to "personalize" my therapist.
" (Glad the two of you were able to work through it.)"
I think the jury is still out on that. I've pretty much decided I'm going to decline to talk about this in my next session. Her only need should be to make sure I don't subconsciously feel pressured to make the same decisions about my marriage that maybe she's made about hers, and to make sure that my "knowledge" isn't inhibiting me from talking about my own marriage. Neither is the truth - so anything we'd discuss beyond that, seems irrelevant. What I've most discovered is that I really don't like worrying about her, which is alot of what I've been doing lately.
Mair
Posted by crushedout on June 2, 2004, at 22:21:48
In reply to Re: Be Careful What You Wish For (long) » crushedout, posted by mair on June 2, 2004, at 20:47:56
i'm not sure my dream is really relevant to your situation but i'm sure i had it because i read your story. it was about an old friend of mine from high school who's been happily married for years to a man even i would consider marrying (and i'm a lesbian). i went to visit her and she had dumped him and had some new guy she was already living with and had decided not to feel bad about dumping her amazing husband. i told her that she had to grieve, she couldn't just replace him and pretend it didn't matter because it did.she wanted to never feel bad. i don't know why she dumped him.
i would have thought that if i were in your situation (and my t told me she and her husband separated) it would renew my hopes of "marrying" my t and get me really excited. but i think i realized reading your post that her happy marriage (assuming she has one) gives me hope for marriage, and to have that hope shattered would be painful. also, i might be sad for her and worried about her (like you are) and have a hard time focusing on my problems which is what our therapy has to be about.
i think you should just keep talking this out with your t. it sounds like she's handling it very well and professionally, and i bet she will continue to do so.
Posted by mair on June 3, 2004, at 9:55:04
In reply to Re: Be Careful What You Wish For (long) » mair, posted by crushedout on June 2, 2004, at 22:21:48
Yeah, well my T may be mature, but I don't feel that way at all. The last thing in the world I want to talk to my T about is how I feel about her situation, and I have a reasonable explanation (reasonable to me) as to why I shouldn't. I'm pretty much dreading therapy this afternoon because I'm not sure how well I can deal with my desire not to deal with it.
I've had male therapists before and I never fantasized about being married to them, or about being their child - both were nearly old enough to be my father. My T is younger than I am; I fantasize about her sometimes, but I'm rarely part of the fantasy. I think I probably work pretty hard to keep her at a real distance; I'm not at all happy that with this current set of circumstances, I find myself feeling really bad for her and feeling very worried as well. I don't like imagining the reality of what I think she's going through.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2004, at 9:58:20
In reply to Be Careful What You Wish For (long), posted by mair on June 1, 2004, at 22:22:31
Mair, I don't have that sort of insight into my therapist's life. But he does tell me when things are going on that might influence my scheduling or his ability to be fully present for sessions. And I've gleaned other things from what he's said. In general I don't mind. I usually find out something I'd rather not know, but I store the information away like a squirrel, slightly adjust my picture of him, and continue to see him the way he is *in* therapy whether or not that bears any real relationship to who he is outside therapy. Because in the end, I suppose, the only thing that matters to the therapeutic relationship is what happens in the room.
When he tells me about something bad that's going on in his life (and I think he only does this appropriately), I worry about him. But my first worry, and I always share this with him as soon as I express the appropriate sentiments, is "What does this mean to ME?" I think he's generally amused and pleased that I get to the point.
But that's me. My relationship with my therapist is very much child/mother, and we all know that a child's *first* thought is what will happen to them if something happens to their mom. And secondly I am concerned about him and his wellbeing. I tend to worry about him only slightly less than my husband and child, and way more than anyone else. I think that's only natural. But I can see being angry at having to worry if you don't think the disclosure was necessary. That's a hard call though. Many clients, myself included, can pick up on subtle mood changes and will naturally conclude it's their fault. So therapists are better off communicating the basics, with lots of reassurance.
If you don't feel like her situation will influence you in the way she thinks it will, but it is influencing you in a completely different way, be honest with her. Since she put it on the table, she should be willing to deal with your feelings of worry for her.
Posted by joslynn on June 3, 2004, at 12:24:28
In reply to Re: Be Careful What You Wish For (long) » mair, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2004, at 9:58:20
I have been told little things that I wanted to hear yet didn't want to hear at the same time.
Like one time, when I was talking about how I didn't like it when a certain person in my life yelled and the T mentioned their spouse as an example of the same dysfunctional confrontational style! And then a disclaimer afterwards of "but I shouldn't have disclosed that" is added, but it's still out there.
And of course I didn't say then that it made me uncomfortable (yet strangely superior to the spouse) to hear those things.
So then I wonder, do I revisit the issue and say please don't disclose stuff like that again, or wait to see if/when a similar mistake is made and then say something. It is not a common occurence.
Part of me likes to hear those things, because then I think, well, I am more even-tempered than the spouse sounds, despite all my problems, so nyah nyah, don't you wish you had married wonderful me? (Even though that would not even be logically possible in the space-time continuum.)
And another part of me thinks, uh oh, if things are wrong in your marriage, how can you possibly help me find the right person?
I can certainly understand the limits on self-disclosure.
Posted by mair on June 3, 2004, at 17:03:00
In reply to Re: Be Careful What You Wish For (long) » mair, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2004, at 9:58:20
... is pretty much my tendency. I think my T had no choice but to tell me about the separation, and I'm glad she did. I wouldn't have wanted to hear it from another source and I had apparently given her the impression that I maybe sensed (or knew) something was wrong.
That she is separated is hardly earth shattering news, certainly in this day and age and I need to hold on to that perspective.
This is a rare instance where my reaction was not "what does this mean for me," although I've certainly had those before. I think I was just unprepared for my level of concern for her, and I think I'd just as soon keep a lid on that. Besides I can't see a way of talking about it without wanting to delve into things that are essentially none of my business.
I met with her this afternoon; I think I managed to sidestep this issue somewhat smoothly, although I knew she wanted to go there (or at least somewhere on the periphery) and I felt like a real jerk for not letting her.
The main reason I started this thread to begin with is that I've always been struck by the amount of "ink" expended here on the subject of wanting to get closer to a therapist. I just think it's a double edged sword.
Thanks for all of the responses.
Posted by LG04 on June 4, 2004, at 10:03:03
In reply to Making Mountains out of Molehills...., posted by mair on June 3, 2004, at 17:03:00
Hi Mair,
I've read this thread with great interest. I agree with you about the double-edged sword. I am very close with my therapist and sometimes I wish I weren't. In some ways it makes it much harder. Boundaries are more difficult to define, expectations can get out of whack, and I also think there is more countertransference on the side of the therapist.There are times when I wish for the days of my old therapist, whom I saw for 5 years, where I didn't think about her at all except for during my sessions or if I needed to speak with her between sessions. I didn't have any interest in knowing anything about her. She was a kind, older woman who was very helpful to me and I got thru a lot of stuff with her. But I never felt any chemistry or connection with her and that was okay with me. I also had no transference with her. (I always had it with people outside the therapy relationship...friends, co-workers, authority figures, etc., which made it very difficult to work thru).
With this therapist, I feel (and I know it's mutual) a very strong connection that goes over and above any therapy relationship I've ever had. She is a huge part of my life emotionally. I know that I am working thru things with her via transference that I've never worked thru before and could never work thru in a relationship that didn't have this kind of transference and connection. But sometimes it's very hard. Sometimes I think we are almost too close, and that she is too comfortable with me. She doesn't tell me about her problems, but I do know a lot about her (because I ask). When she makes mistakes with me, it's very painful. (though maybe that's the case with any therapeutic relationship) Sometimes I think more distance would be good. Soon I am leaving the country I am in (Israel) either for the summer or for good. If it's for the summer and I return, I think it will benefit our relationship, to have some distance and perspective.
Anyway the double-edged sword comment is right on target. I feel like I am almost in a kind of marriage with her. It's an intense, intimate relationship. I am single, and I am hoping that this relationship is preparing me for a marital relationship, which is something I want in my life. I am definitely learning a ton about myself and working thru stuff. But damn it's hard.
Also, I wouldn't give her up or my relationship with her for anything. She means so much to me and I love her deeply.
LG
Posted by gardenergirl on June 4, 2004, at 18:54:04
In reply to Re: Making Mountains out of Molehills...., posted by LG04 on June 4, 2004, at 10:03:03
Mair,
I have been following this thread with interest. I can't say that I've had a similar experience. I know very little about my T's personal life. I know that he is married, has kids, and likes to garden also. I know vicariously (from his supervisee, who is a classmate of mine) that he was once or maybe still is in a band. (I have such a hard time picturing that!)But I completely agree with the double-edged sword thing. I don't want to know any more about him. I prefer having him more of a blank slate for my transference, which is parental. But I struggle with fighting against feeling needy and dependent. So far, nothing has happened that I know of, to lead me to worry about him. I'm sure if it did, I would really struggle with that internally. I would want to assure myself that he will be there for me, but at the same time, feel weak and needy for that very reason. It's so hard to need someone and depend on someone. Particularly if your parents or other primary caregivers were not dependable and did not fulfill your needs. I learned that needing and depending was bad, because it didn't get me anywhere. I was reinforced for being independent and like a little adult. This certainly goes against the grain of needing a T. So I defend against it when it gets too "hot" for me. But when I don't defend against, and instead process is with him or allow it to help the work, then it feels kind of liberating. Like a secret is out in the open now, and is not so shameful after all.
Forgive my rambling. My brain is a bit scrambled from an impact with my car window. But your posts have resonated with me.
Take care and good luck with this!
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on June 4, 2004, at 20:23:28
In reply to Making Mountains out of Molehills...., posted by mair on June 3, 2004, at 17:03:00
I guess it's natural in any kind of relationship to have mutual "worrying." In a way, I think it is a good sign that you truly care about her happiness and well-being beyond what she is for you. That's a wonderful gift. The key, I suppose, is balance, that you are more concerned with how you are being healed then how you can help her. It's only natural to be concerned about those we care about it. Since you know so much, it may be hard just to cut it off. Maybe you need to know the end of the story, and then from there, you can move on from the details of her life. Sounds like she's willing to get you there.
This is the end of the thread.
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