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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tomatheus on May 3, 2012, at 13:42:16
A while back, I mentioned in two posts in the medication forum (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120328/msgs/1014925.html and http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120411/msgs/1015410.html) that I was taking a telomerase-activating supplement called TA-65 and that it was helping with some of my symptoms, particularly my hypersomnia and my difficulty concentrating.
I said that I would post an update, so here it is: after having some success with TA-65, I seemed to completely stop responding to the supplement several days ago and have stopped taking it. Stopping the supplement did not result in the worsening of any of my symptoms, which leads me to suspect that it probably has indeed lost its effectiveness.
So, I guess it's back to the drawing board for me.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on May 3, 2012, at 18:12:48
In reply to Update on my response to TA-65, posted by Tomatheus on May 3, 2012, at 13:42:16
I hasten to say that I don't know anything, but would you expect to notice it? Or maybe you want something you can notice? What I am getting at is that the telomere repair thingo may have really slow long term effects?
Posted by Tomatheus on May 3, 2012, at 18:58:39
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65, posted by sigismund on May 3, 2012, at 18:12:48
Sigismund,
You could be right that some of the potential benefits of TA-65 might take a long time to appear. As far as telomere length and the potential lifespan and healspan-extending effects are concerned, I do tend to think that it would probably take months or even longer to benefit from TA-65. But as far as effects on my vegetative depression and difficulty concentrating are concerned, the TA-65 seemed to have very measurable effects initially that slowly diminished with time. I could measure the supplement's effectiveness in terms of the amount of sleep I was getting each night and the amount of reading I was doing each day. Basically, there was clear improvement early on, but I seemed to develop a tolerance to something that the supplement was doing, just as I do to a lot of other supplements that I've taken.
I could keep taking the TA-65 for its potential lifespan and healthspan-extending benefits, but I honestly don't think that it would be worthwhile to do so. Not only am I unwilling to pay the cost of TA-65 just to have a longer lifespan and/or healthspan, but at this point, having a longer life isn't something that I want. It was a possible side effect of TA-65's that I was willing to tolerate as long as I was noticing benefits from the supplement, but now that I no longer seem to be benefiting from TA-65 on a mental level, I don't have much use for the supplement.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on May 3, 2012, at 21:54:00
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on May 3, 2012, at 18:58:39
>, but at this point, having a longer life isn't something that I want
I see :)
There are heaps of supplements which keep me awake. I recall the rhodiola/deprenyl combo as being distinctly pleasant except for the insomnia.
Do you ever have a problem with (supplement induced) insomnia?
The other day I had a few too many cups of that GABA oolong type tea and hardly slept after midnight.
Posted by Tomatheus on May 3, 2012, at 23:49:20
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on May 3, 2012, at 21:54:00
Sigismund,
See below for my responses to your reply...
> There are heaps of supplements which keep me awake. I recall the rhodiola/deprenyl combo as being distinctly pleasant except for the insomnia.
I haven't tried that combo. I had a few good days on selegiline when I tried it, but when I tried rhodiola last, it didn't agree with me very well. I actually felt less energetic than usual with an increase in psychomotor retardation. Maybe I need to try a different brand, as Bleauberry suggests.
It's too bad to hear about the insomnia that you had with that combo, though. If I had to guess which part of the combo would be the bigger offender with regards to the insomnia, I would go with the deprenyl.
> Do you ever have a problem with (supplement induced) insomnia?
Yeah, sometimes supplements can keep me awake much later than I want to stay awake. L-glutamic acid comes to mind. I think that the last time I took a little bit of that supplement, I spent both the following night and the day after that awake.
But even with l-glutamic acid, as the case has been with a lot of the supplements that I've taken, I eventually develop a tolerance to all of its effects (including its effects on my sleep) if I stay on it for long enough.
> The other day I had a few too many cups of that GABA oolong type tea and hardly slept after midnight.
It's interesting that something GABAergic would have that effect on you. I don't know anything about oolong tea, but I wonder if maybe it was something other than the GABAergic effects of the tea that was keeping you awake. That's not to say that paradoxical reactions can't happen, though.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 4:45:47
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on May 3, 2012, at 23:49:20
>It's interesting that something GABAergic would have that effect on you
Not the GABA, something else, just some antioxidant thing, that ECBG or whatever it is. Once I took a dose of that and there was no sleep that night. Goji berries do the same thing, also astanxthin (sp!!), I can't remember how many things do it.
My wife sleeps like a log and rhodiola disturbed her sleep.
Then there is alpha lipoic acid. That disturbs my sleep too, and could prolong your life which might be unwelcome.
You don't get on well with MAOIs?
Posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 4:48:50
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 4:45:47
There was a post from Larry Hoover referring to a hole in which he was stuck where he said 'Anything that helps me wrecks my sleep' or words to that effect.
Posted by Tomatheus on May 4, 2012, at 11:36:58
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 4:45:47
Sigismund,
See below for my responses to your reply...
> Not the GABA, something else, just some antioxidant thing, that ECBG or whatever it is. Once I took a dose of that and there was no sleep that night. Goji berries do the same thing, also astanxthin (sp!!), I can't remember how many things do it.
>
> My wife sleeps like a log and rhodiola disturbed her sleep.
>
> Then there is alpha lipoic acid. That disturbs my sleep too, and could prolong your life which might be unwelcome.I generally hate to make comparisons like this, but it seems like the problem you have with supplements disturbing your sleep but being otherwise helpful might be akin to the problem that I have with supplements being somewhat helpful for a little while before losing their effectiveness. Do you find that the supplements that disrupt your sleep keep disrupting your sleep if you keep taking them, or does that effect ever subside with time for you (or do you just stop the supplements once they disrupt your sleep)?
> You don't get on well with MAOIs?
I didn't get on well with rhodiola when I tried it, but then again, I didn't give the herb a real chance. As much as I hate taking something that is likely to worsen my depressive symptoms, giving rhodiola another go might be worth doing at some point.
MAOIs generally have a very favorable effect on my depressive symptoms, but most of the MAOI drugs that I've tried (ixocarboxazid, selegiline, moclobemide, and Goldshield's tranylcypromine) were beneficial for only three days before they completely lost their effectiveness. I've taken Chinese goldthread, which is an herb that has MAO-A inhibiting properties, and once, I even tried a low dose of harmine, and both times I noticed some benefits on the first day that I took the substances but nothing after that. Nardil really is the only treatment for my depressive symptoms that's had a real pronounced effect on my symptoms for more than a few days at a time, but I even had problems getting that medication to work for more than a few months.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 17:49:11
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on May 4, 2012, at 11:36:58
A long time ago I took harmine....it passed under the radar then. It seemed very nice and not alarming. I gather that in ayahuasca there is also some trytamine type thingo that has MAOI effect which greatly intensifies it.
No, the insomnia does not remit with me getting used to a supplement. I am just like that anyway these days and am just very sensitive. I should completely avoid alcohol too. I tell myself this every night around 12.30am.
Posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 18:15:32
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 17:49:11
I have remembered what you think did it to you....aminoguanidine. I used to take that.
Posted by Tomatheus on May 4, 2012, at 19:18:00
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65, posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 18:15:32
Sigismund,
It's too bad that the insomnia that you get from supplements doesn't subside the longer you stay on the supplements. It's interesting, though, that you don't seem to build up a tolerance to the effects that supplements have on your sleep like I do.
Yes, the course of my life definitely changed after I ingested aminoguanidine. It might seem that my life was clearly changed for the worse, given the cognitive impairment and psychosis that I've been experiencing since taking aminoguanidine, but with my vegetative depression being less severe than it used to be before aminoguanidine, it's really hard to say for sure if I'm worse off now than I would be otherwise.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 19:48:15
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on May 4, 2012, at 19:18:00
How long did you take it for?
Posted by Tomatheus on May 4, 2012, at 20:22:03
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » Tomatheus, posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 19:48:15
I only took aminoguanidine once, but I'm not sure if I took one or two tablets. I noticed the cognitive impairment shortly after I took it, and I didn't take any more of it after that because the effect on my cognition was rather strong. The psychosis set in a few days after I took the aminoguanidine. I think it's also worth mentioning that I was taking tranylcypromine (generic Parnate) and SAM-e when I took aminoguanidine. I think that there's a chance that I never would have responded the way I did to aminoguanidine if I hadn't been taking tranylcypromine and/or SAM-e.
Tomatheus
Posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 21:24:50
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65 » sigismund, posted by Tomatheus on May 4, 2012, at 20:22:03
I am a bit hazy about what aminiguanadine does now.
Do you have a theory as to why it should have done that?
When I took Parnate with SAMe I found myself seeking refuge in a library pretending to read newspapers and looking out of the corner of my eye to see if the coast was clear.
Posted by Tomatheus on May 4, 2012, at 22:17:13
In reply to Re: Update on my response to TA-65, posted by sigismund on May 4, 2012, at 21:24:50
> Do you have a theory as to why it should have done that?
My best guess would be that I was adversely affected by aminoguanidine's nitric oxide synthase inhibition. There is a study showing that neonatal rats that were administered the nitric oxide synthase inhibitor n-omega-nitro-l-arginine were later shown to have decreased levels of nitric oxide and to exhibit schizophrenia-like behaviors (Morales-Medina, 2008). Then again, I've taken Paxil, which inhibits nitric oxide synthase, and I never experienced anything like what I experienced after taking aminoguanidine. Maybe the type of nitric oxide synthase being inhibited makes a difference, or maybe something other that aminoguanidine's nitric oxide synthase inhibition caused the reaction that I had. I don't know. As I said, what I put forth was just a guess.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCE
Morales-Medina, J.C., Mejorada, A., Romero-Curiel, A., Aguilar-Alonso, P., Leon-Chavez, B.A., Gamboa, C., et al. (2008). Neonatal administration of n-omega-nitro-l-arginine induces permanent decrease in NO levels and hyperresponsiveness to locomotor activity by d-amphetamine in postpubertal rats. Neuropharmacology, 55, 1313-20. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18790702
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